Slashdot Log In
eFront From Inside
Posted by
michael
on Sat Mar 10, 2001 02:26 PM
from the hoist-by-their-own-petard dept.
from the hoist-by-their-own-petard dept.
Gridle writes: "In short, eFront was a company which bought out successful websites and turned them into cash cows by maximizing profit through different ways of banner and other advertising. Not a bad idea, except that their methods aren't exactly pretty ones. A disgruntled employee obtained some crucial ICQ logs (mirror), which show the true spirit behind eFront. It includes cheating on banner companies, cheating on top100 sites, talking about raping a female webmaster because she doesn't agree on some points, tax evasion, delaying payment to webmasters, literally harrassing sites out of existance and all kinds of other nasty stuff. Somebody put together a summary about how it concerns the emulation scene. Also notice OverClocked's comic about it and Tim Eckel's previous ventures against the emulation community, and Penny Arcade. And it's all over the place already. FuckedCompany, SomethingAwful, Lum the Mad (and their forums), Get High Forums, mame.dk support pages and Retrogames' General and Current Affairs boards. Somebody even found that their CEO has earlier been convicted."
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Re:some interesting news... okay...\ (Score:2)
Re:Trial by /. ? (Score:2)
How is
You can't be liable for libel unless it can be proven that you knew what you were saying was false.
Rate me on Picture-rate.com [picture-rate.com]
Funny (Score:2)
Sam must read Slashdot.
um.... no (Score:2)
Rate me on Picture-rate.com [picture-rate.com]
Responding to the original log publisher (#209) .. (Score:2)
Re:They are not inadmissable (Score:0)
by Anonymous Coward on Saturday March 10,@07:44PM EST (#209)
I was the first person to get the logs from the hacker (kebie) I have no idea what any of that mumbo jumbo means, especialy because I live in Canada. I originaly gave the logs out to webmasters, because I was so pissed off, #1 I hadnt been paid in 5months, and #2 my net was getting cut off.. Plus efront was trying to blackmail us into new contracts.. they wouldn't give backpay till we signed these new crazy contracts that gave us no rights at all.. Me being the webmaster who was owed next to no money ($421), took it upon myself to release the logs. If any of the other webmasters did they would liable to lose $30,000+ and their sites. The logs had only been through 1 person before me, from what I know.
Ask CheshireCat instead of me, sounds like he has it together a lot better than I do, but I say they need to take it to their solicitors, you too if you haven't already. It sounds and reads like the people involved with this company do have a valid case.
Re:is no one concerned? (Score:2)
Re:Rampant homophobia? Not necessarily. (Score:2)
So straight women just want to have sex with woman? Is that what she told you? And you believed it?
No wonder you're home Saturday evening posting on /.
eFront wanted to buy my website (Score:5)
But, I suppose enough people are just interested in the prospect of making phat cash that they'll sign anything stuck in front of their face. These people getting screwed over by eFront are getting screwed over because they leapt into it with a lot of unfounded faith. Someone once said (I think it was George Carlin), "Businessmen go into meetings thinking the other guy is going to fuck them over, so they race to fuck the other guy over first."
This type of thing happens in boardrooms all across the country, every day. It really isn't surprising that eFront is conspiring to screw their webmasters over, what is surprising is that they were stupid enough to do it over ICQ.
highlights (Score:2)
to shoot ourselves in the foot.. evaluating
them on a one by one basis
like themeheaven has a 24x7 banner next to
ours.. well u know his payment will be delayed
Andy@home 18/01/20 2:59 pm Do you know how to print and ICQ log / History - I want to remind myself of some of the issues we discussed, so that I don't miss anything
sam 18/01/20 2:59 pm history->saveas->notepad savedfile.txt->print
I have a shotgun, a shovel and 30 acres behind the barn.
I like my job,sorry. (Score:2)
Re:(-1, read the 12 megabyte logs) (Score:2)
They also posted the interpretation of the link. I suspect you are probably correct though that intent could not be proven.
No community (Score:4)
Hm (Score:2)
Trial by /. ? (Score:4)
ICQ History Log For:
12345678 SchmuckBoy
Started on Tue April 32 25:43:47 2004
SchmuckBoy 04/32/04 02:43:47 nm Did you read on
leetkid 04/32/04 02:44:48 nm No, was it 'leet?
SchmuckBoy 04/32/04 02:49:03 nm It took me a few days to write them all, but
leetkid 04/32/04 02:50:04 nm Sec, viewing them
SchmuckBoy 04/32/04 02:54:28 nm Sure I did. The people at Slashdot are not journalists so they did not bother to verify the facts, and I get away with smearing lameass publically, harming him and his reputation, and
leetkid 04/32/04 02:56:19 nm You ARE the 'leetest one of all!
SchmuckBoy 04/32/04 02:58:43 nm I wouldn't be without the help of
Exactly why should anyone trust logs posted to a web site? Especially when someone's reputation is involved? How is
Another mirror (Score:2)
Mark Duell
Re:Rampant homophobia? Not necessarily. (Score:2)
Sam ignored open fileshares warning (Score:4)
by the way.. you have open file sharing on your computer on
Kristy 02/03/20 1:23 pm
which means someone can delete your hd
Kristy 02/03/20 1:23 pm
at anytime..
Kristy 02/03/20 1:23 pm
you might want to change that
Kristy 02/03/20 1:27 pm
but im not supposed to tell you
Kristy 02/03/20 1:27 pm
so dont tell anyone
Re:Rampant homophobia? Not necessarily. (Score:2)
Everyone else so TOTALLY forgot to get your take on vocabulary!
OK, so when you say "that's so gay" you don't mean it in a negative way connoting unnaceptable, wrong, innapropriate; you just mean it in a nice, affirming, we're-all-in-this-together kinda way. Oh yeah, I can really see where you're coming from on this.
How could everyone else have so grossly misunderstood you?
So please, when I note that you're an ignorant clueless twit who simply thinks everyone else should forgive him for his offensive comments understand that I don't really mean those things and of course you should have no reason to be offended ('cause like, they shouldn't really bother anyone 'cause *I* don't see how they would) well, you'll understand.
Re:Umm... so why go with eFront? (Score:2)
Yes, I have -- but less than 10 bucks. Assuming they keep their donation system up and running, I plan to donate about 25 dollars a year. I'd give it all at once (better for them) but I like the idea I can stop donating if I find the site starts sucking for some reason :-).
Umm... so why go with eFront? (Score:5)
How on earth can you do business (and the ICQ log makes the excellent point that, once you bring money into the equation, it's no longer a hobby) - do business with another company and not know that their CEO has been convicted of fraud? Where's the due dilligence? ``What other companies are you working with? Can I talk to someone at some of your other affiliate sites?''
How can someone host a site like mame.dk or somethingawful.com as anything but a hobby in their spare time? Pud seems to do just fine running FC that way (and appropriately makes fun of big companies that require 50 people to do the same thing). This isn't a troll - at least 50% of those reading this should know how easy it is to run a dynamic web site, and even to host it cheaply. But $24,000 a month!?
If you're going to accept ad revenue as the way you pay rent, it seems like you need to be up on the ad industry and know what the CPM trends are. It also seems like you'd want a pretty good contract with your ad provider, so they can't just drop you if it's not working out. Especially after April, 2000.
I don't mean to sound harsh, but I really can't see anything but greed as a motivation for the sites that have been hit by this; that and a sense of entitlement thwarted. I mean, I love PA, I really do, but I could host it on my (pretty modest) salary, in my spare time. What entitles someone to it as their job?
-1, Flamebait I guess... though I really think these are important issues.
Re:They are not inadmissable (Score:2)
Thanks for that. It would have been more fun/efficient if you released the logs slowly ("And tomorrow, as a guest star, lowtax, from SA fame...")
Anyway, it is always nice when shit hits the fan that way...
Cheers,
--fred
Re:Trial by /. ? (Score:5)
I have no reason to suspect the logs aren't real. Draw your own conclusions though.
Also, ICQ's license agreement pretty much states that since they can't guarantee privacy, it's essentially a public forum. I guess eFront just fucked themselves.
About the rape quote, grep rape from iBLAMEj00.txt. You'll find it easily. Perhaps it wasn't said with any intention to do it, but it still sticks at people's eyes and would be pretty much an open and shot case for this female webmaster's lawyers.
Re:Umm... so why go with eFront? (Score:2)
Well, it's worth maybe ... 25 bucks a year. If PA were a monthly magazine, with everything it has in it, I would probably subscribe for that much. On the other hand, it works so much better as a web site.
PA introduced me to CounterStrike [counter-strike.net]. Though this has largely been regarded as a poor move in my wife's mind, my friends and I are pretty happy about it. Not to mention Bejeweled [msn.com]! And this great comic [penny-arcade.com], which still elicits laughter.
Heck, I used to pay 30 bucks a year for PC Gamer, and it sucked. And it was chock full of ads. At PA, there are no ads. It's just great content, seemingly tailor-made for my consumption.
Should PA be their full time job?
Why shouldn't it be? If they're good enough at what they do, and the economy can support them, why not?
Re:Some relevant links & interesting information (Score:2)
Someone else (loraksus post #90) posted it but I think everyone should get a chance to tell him how they feel.
Re:Rampant homophobia? Not necessarily. (Score:2)
Remember - you heard it here first - your 100% accurate guide to spotting practicioners of "the homosexual lifestyle."
Re:eFront wanted to buy my website (Score:2)
Re:No community (Score:5)
Just as I think any kind of community spirit on the Net is gone, some little slimeball pops up and proves me wrong with the reaction he provokes.
Re:No community (Score:2)
Well, a lot of people in the web biz could learn from pornsites how to make good money. A lot of these companies are thriving, in sharp contrast to "Which one will go bankrupt today?" gloom hanging over Linux companies.
Cheers,
no, but.... (Score:3)
If you want clear and incontrovertible proof, you're going to have to develop some kind of clairsentient abilities, because all evidence can be forged at some level.
Re:eFront sends out Cease and Desist letters.... (Score:2)
I've read some of the excerpted logs, and that actualy isn't to far from the truth. One of the guys on ICQ, I think it was bryant or tim actualy did a search and found a sample C&D to send to the PA guys "fill in the relevent details, and put out lawers name on it."
These guys acted like children.
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Ironic ........... and now the Efront fightback (Score:2)
eFront sends out Cease and Desist letters.... (Score:4)
First, check out: http://www.fuckedcompany.com/extras/efront_letter
As you can see, eFront's "legal department" is sending out cease and desist letters to anyone who is hosting or linking to the ICQ logs. Wonder if Slashdot will be hit by one?
If you have read the logs, you'll know that in a previous situation, eFront simply copied a cease and desist template off a web page to send. Look's like they've done it here as well.
I like this comment made [fuckedcompany.com] by bored2 on Pud's website. He says:
regarding the letter:
* It's not signed by a person (but was sent by email? what was the email address in the relevant headers?) A lawyer would sign his/her name. or perhaps the current efront legal dept. consists of Sam in his boxers and a google search for cease and desist letters.
* It starts: "We are contacting you on behalf of eFront Media ("Company")." Umm, but I thought this letter was from eFront? Sam is obviously using a letter from a law firm writing on behalf of a client w/o having changed the relevant parts of the letter.
* "The unauthorized break-in and continued distribution and dissemination of this data violates the Federal wiretapping ***statues***."
With no citation to the relevant "statues".
* "The FBI office of Orange County is currently investigating"
There is a LA and San Diego division offices of the FBI; there is no office called the "Orange County Office." See: http://losangeles.fbi.gov/contact/fo/la/territory
The rest of the letter is just crap, especially: "In addition, we are requesting that you shut down the entire forum for Efront, due to the criminal investigation and the illegal actions that have been conducted with the reading and gathering of such materials."
What is that last clause supposed to mean?
How pathetic.
Re:They are not inadmissable (Score:5)
I'm afraid you don't know what you're talking about. In a civil action, people don't "file charges." Only a government prosecutor can "file charges"--or more accurately seek an indictment by grand jury or by information with a preliminary hearing in front of a magistrate. Your points might apply if you were talking about ethical violations relating to prejudicial pretrial pubilicity by the government (state prosecutors or Fed. Assistant U.S. Attorneys). Similarly, innocent until proven guilty is a criminal concept; civil plaintiffs have the burden of proof/pursuasion (with a "more likely than not" standard).
Re. defamation, remember that truth is a defense. Stated another way, you can only defame someone with false statements. Second, some matters of public interest are covered by a qualified, constitutional privilige established by the Spreme Court in New York Times v. Sullivan. With a public figure or matter of public controversy, a plaintiff must often prove "actual malice," meaning not "spite or ill will" but that the defendant had "knowledge of falsity or reckless disregard for truth," but nevertheless published the statement(s). However, if the plaintiff is a private person and has not injected him/herself into a public controversy, then the plaintiff only needs to prove that the defendant was negligent in publishing the defamatory material.
With a private person & private controversy, usually negligence means falling below what a reasonable person or reasonable publisher would have done under the same circumstances.
There are other torts that might apply, however, like invasion of privacy.
One interesting question is whether obtaining the logs violated the Electronic Communications Protection Act (ECPA), 18 U.S.C. 2510 et seq.
Re. admissibility, pre-publication or not keeping something a secret has no bearing. All relevant evidence not otherwise inadmissible comes in. "Relevant" usually means "having any tendency to make the existence of any fact that is of consequence to the determination of the action more probable or less probable". An easy standard. Some possible grounds for inadmissibility:
In all, electronic records are viewed by the majority of courts to be no better and no worse than any other kind of evidence.
---
In a hundred-mile march,
Re:Umm... so why go with eFront? (Score:2)
You must have more spare time than I do. I go to sites like PA because I don't have the spare time to dig around the net and find the things they do.
Re:Another mirror (Score:2)
Mark Duell
(-1, read the 12 megabyte logs) (Score:2)
Sam Jain is on the right. (Score:2)
http://207.153.207.173/visittoefront/pages/DCP_03
Re:(-1, read the 12 megabyte logs) (Score:2)
One other point, if these allegations prove untrue, /. becomes guilty of libel ...
If they wanna "bet the farm" on something like this, then I guess that's their business. For some reason I suspect this story was poorly considered. :)
Some relevant links & interesting information (Score:2)
FULL logs:
http://www.retardmagnet.com/whoops/
http://www.sunpoint.net/~blametim/blame.xhtml
Misc. logs & non-log information:
http://members.tripod.com/smajain/
http://babel.altavista.com/translate.dyn?urltex
Fuckedcompany broke the story at:
http://www.fuckedcompany.com/comments/index.cfm
There are 18 pages of commentary @ Fuckedcompany, some commentary is rather humorous - phone numbers for employees and the answering machine messages that say "I no longer work here, call Sam Jain", highlights from some of the logs, and misc. images from the web.
If you go to http://www.efront.com, and then go to their "About Us" section, every link works.. except the Management link, most likely removed to prevent them from being spammed or contacted by news media. Of course, you can still get the information, because they didn't take down the German version of that page. Just click on the German flag.
I suppose their site *would* have to be up for this to work, though.
Thank goodness for GoogleCache!
http://www.google.com/search?q=cache:www.efront
Also funny is that Sam Jain's cell phone (the number of which you can find in the logs) is "at the customer's request, no longer accepting incoming calls".
That's all, folks
stil
Re:eFront wanted to buy my website (Score:2)
I warned the PCMech owner NOT to get associated with eF. All the other sites that eF bought (I knew a LOT of people in the webmaster community) were abused. Ads were put up (the popup kind), payments were late, and most of all the webmasters retained NO control. Strict guidelines were set up to stop them from seeing their OWN stats just so eF could make up their own numbers!
Lowtax (webmaster of SomethingAwful) is now part of eF (and not just a siteowner). hE's trying to make things better. I sure hope he can, or a HUGE percentage of everyone's fav sites will be screwed (PA, SA, PCMech, etc etc). Wish him good luck.
------------
Just a l33t flame war? (Score:5)
The "summary" link above is vaguely written, with nothing clearly stated to be illegal. It's more like it's written to *sound* illegal. "Screw the affiliates by lowering the CPM from $3 to $.75"...does that mean in actual breach of contract, or does it mean renegotiate the monthly pay rate? There's a big difference! Ad rates change all the time.
Bragging about "tricking" people into clicking ads (in the summary link), sorry, that sucks, but within certain bounds, that's part of web advertising today. You see tricky banners on CNN and most other major web sites too, like "click the monkey to win" and so on.
Bragging about "pop-ups and how he can do whatever he wants to his visitors," again, if this is just a gripe about unsolicited pop-up ads, they suck, but have become mainstream practice these days. I'd say most of the major media web sites I visit pop up ad consoles at different times.
"He frequently berates his visitors, at one point calling them 'sheep', He brags about his own 'leetness.'" Yadda yadda yadda. I'm sorry, if the whole issue is that this guy is a ruthless profit-seeker you wouldn't want to be friends with, it just seems like a lot of personal griping. Okay, maybe he's an asshole, but so what?
Again, I haven't read the 15 megabytes of log files, so I'm not saying for sure this is just a lot of name-calling, but if there are specific allegations of fraud, it would be interesting to have them summarized with more details and credibility than the "summary" link in the initial posting.
Re:Andover competitor? (Score:2)
1) Slashdot basically just linked this guys entire ICQ conversations with everyone for the past year. 90% of this stuff is irrelivant. So much for being pro-privacy, huh?
2) Slashdot seems to be getting involved in a petty fight between a couple of emulation sites, who cares? How is this "News for News" or "Stuff that matters"? It's petty bullshit.
3) The heavy slant in the story
Michael, how would you like it if the log from every chat converastion you've ever had was posted to the web, including private business conversations (names, phone numbers, fianance numbers are discussed) and off color jokes you've made (raping someone? i'm sure we've all said worse when we're under the pretense that we're talking privately among friends).
A story like this has no place on slashdot. I'm disgusted and lost what was left of my respect for this place.
Um (Score:2)
More links (Score:5)
Tim's flame on Penny Arcade's forums (long long thread) [penny-arcade.com]
r. ghaffari
(25/M/Baltimore, MD)
Andover competitor? (Score:5)
It could be argued, pretty easily, that this article is a competitive swipe against EFront, who seem to have a relatively similar business strategy to another "Buy-And-Milk" company, your very own Andover Networks.
I hope this doesn't cause more fuss than it should. Be stupid to see
Re:is no one concerned? (Score:3)
Well, I will be the first to admit that I haven't read some of the articles, so I have no idea how the logs were acquired, but based on what I know so far, the answer would be no.
Why, you ask? It's quite simple: I take the attitude that anything transmitted via ICQ and logged is no longer private. AFAIK, ICQ themselves take that attitude. It's like when people complain about me posting IRC logs: stuff said is, IMHO, public domain, especially if on a channel itself.
If the person whose logs were posted wants to complain, maybe he should consider that this could have been avoided had he used something that DIDN'T log his words. :p Or even better, not been such an ass in the first place...
Re:Andover competitor? (Score:5)
Federal Wiretapping Statues (Score:3)
--
is no one concerned? (Score:3)
--
Peace,
Lord Omlette
ICQ# 77863057
Whoops.. (Score:5)
Connected to arcadeathome.efront.com.
Escape character is '^]'.
GET / HTTP/1.0
Referer: http://mamedk.cjb.net/
HTTP/1.1 302 Found
Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2001 22:21:20 GMT
Server: Apache/1.3.12
X-Powered-By: PHP/4.0.3pl1
Location: http://goatse.cx/
Connection: close
Content-Type: text/html