Slashdot Log In
Dreamcast Postmortem
Posted by
Hemos
on Wed Mar 28, 2001 10:28 AM
from the delving-inside-sega dept.
from the delving-inside-sega dept.
zlite writes: "The Financial Times has a good insider tale of how Sega bungled the Dreamcast. Short version: tentative marketing, divided opinions, and costly delays. Then the main champion got cancer. The machine died with him." I do have to say that I've gotten a lot of use out of my DC, and I know a lot of people who use and like them -- so I think the article is a bit overly harsh. But it's still got some good background to the device.
This discussion has been archived.
No new comments can be posted.
The Fine Print: The following comments are owned by whoever posted them. We are not responsible for them in any way.
It was inevitable almost (Score:1)
A sad end to be sure
I love my DC (Score:2)
I don't think they bungled it.
Dreamcast (Score:3)
Before you mark me as flamebait, let me explain. I didn't like the Dreamcast. I never played Sega stuff. I was a Nintendo boy, because Sega just plain sucked (All Your Base, anyone?)
When I saw that the Dreamcast was being discontinued and offered for only $99, I went out and bought one because, hey, it's only $99. With the dropping price of games (due to said discontinuation) I thought I could grab a couple of good games before they went off the shelf.
Dreamcast is an incredible machine, way better than that PS2 crap. Games for the PS2 just plain suck, the controller is uncomfortable, and the prices are over-inflated by artificially-created hype. DC, on the other hand, has lots of good games, the controller is terrific, and you can play up to 4 players.
Just because the Dreamcast failed doesn't mean that it sucks. PS2 sucks. Dreamcast is going to have loyal fans (myself included) for a long time.
------
That's just the way it is
Zero Wing? (Score:3)
You know the drill..."All your Dreamcast are belong to us!!"
sega (Score:1)
=\=\=\=\=\=\=\=\=\=\=\=\=\=\=\=\=\=\=\=\
My Dreamcast still works (Score:2)
Test Drive LeMans absolutely rawks, Starlancer brings back all kinds of happywarmfuzzy Wing Commander vibes, and my wife loves blowing me up in Worms Armageddon.
Game labels, keep 'em coming!
(and who knows - maybe Loki will start compiling games for Dreamcast Linux someday)
"Poor marketing" (Score:3)
I love my DC too (Score:4)
But you need to put this in context; this is a Financial Times article, and they don't really care about the quality of the games; they're interested in the sucess (or in this case otherwise) of the business. And one has to say that the Dreamcast did nothing for the business - in fact Sega stock rose quite sharply when it was announced that they were dropping the DC.
--
A reply onto itself. (Score:2)
Taps for the DC (Score:2)
I also moonlight for a retail toy store in addition to being a corporate slave, and was there when the initial systems came. There were 5 (or 6) games available, extra controllers were expensive, and the other accessories were worse - although much cooler than any of its "competetors" at the time. Games were slow to come at first, and by the time 3rd party eq. came out for it, people in general were choosing to go back to the PlayStation. For the graphics' sake, I wish it had held on longer, but it was doomed from the beginning. I might buy one for the Soul Caliber aspect, but i'll just stick with my comp for entertainment for now.
Err. (Score:2)
Saturn was a mistake, Dreamcast never had 3rd party support, so it goes.
Re:Dreamcast (Score:2)
Do you think that you would have changed your mind about SEGA if they had worked harder on an artificially-created hype about thier console? Should Mico$oft get the 10,000 RPM Media Spin engine to push the XBox.
TEN
The Japanese. (Score:5)
Although North American businesses are far from immune to management quibbles, it seems like in a lot of cases that Japanese companies can get caught up in notions of duty and honour, and have difficulty making the quick decisions required in the computer/electronics markets today.
Growing up in the 80's, the Japanese could do no wrong and were wiping the floors with everyone with their improved production models and more efficient operations. Now it seems they have more trouble competing in the faster paced market. For example, I find it amazing that none of the top grpahics chipset makers are Japanese (it's even more amazing that two of them are Canadian).
Perhaps certain fast paced international markets are just not compatible with the Japanese style of management.
Re:I love my DC too (Score:2)
...
Sega is a "Software Company" remember?
So they stopped making the machines? They slashed the price, injected a few hundreds of thousands of more machines into the userbase, and have now set them up to sell more copies of Phantasy Star Online, Sonic Adventure 2, and (with any luck) a future version of NiGHTS.
The best thing that could happen to the platform now is for Hitachi or NEC to decide to pick up production of a 3rd party machine with DVD capabilities and a groovy form factor. (I love my Dreamcast to death, but the machine does look a bit too much like a toy for my taste.)
"Everything you know is wrong. (And stupid.)"
Re:"Poor marketing" (Score:2)
Yes, but you don't have the facts exactly straight. Geeks hate marketing because it is in large part about lies and false promisses that we have to fullfill after the fact. Anyone (and this is most geeks with a real job) who has had to rush to put in some baddly designed feature because marketing promissed in and someone bought it understands. Cut the cost down to nothing and then build a great full-featureed system on top of that... I can personally think of several buggy programs that cannot be fixed due to the above, that I have to maintain.
Still we grudgingly admit that if a product fails it is bad marketing, and if it succeddeds it is good marketing. Likewise when a company fails it is because of bad management. (Which often hired the bad marketers) Technology has nothing to do with either, something geeks hate to admit. Linux was a little geek toy that we enjoied for years until marketing got a hold of it. True geeks would be happy to have linux remain a little known geek toy, but marketing recignised some of the things geeks like about linux as good, and they started selling it. (Witness redhat and similear companies that make money marketing linux. Linux doesn't need redhat, though we enjoy the benifits of having them around.)
When a product succeeds it is marketing, when a product fails it is marketing. Success in this case is measured in money, there are other definitions, but they don't pay the bills) Still anyone who has delt with marketing understands why geeks cannot stand marketing.
hrmm... (Score:2)
Ironic that the slashdot 'games' icon for this story is a N64 controller, is it not?
Sega problems ran deeper than that (Score:3)
Management, Not Engineering (Score:3)
Jeesh, Hemos. There isn't one word in the article about the engineering quality of the product. It's all about management infighting and bungling. Like all business publications (and a depressing number of "technical" rags) Financial Times sees everything in terms of market opportunities won or lost. Having a quality product is only one (not always essential) factor in that equation.
There's no sign the writer knows more than the barest basics about electronic gaming or engineering. For this kind of article, she doesn't need to.
Her point is that the suits killed the product. From our nerdy point of view, Dreamcast being a quality product only strengthens her point.
__
It will live forever.. (Score:2)
Re:Taps for the DC (Score:2)
- I was there when the initial systems came. They sold off the shelf instantly, leaving everyone else to constantly ask if we had any in. There were a few games available, controllers were available but worth nothing since no one could get a system. Games came slower than the dreamcast, and weren't any better for a long while.
Given that the DC is 1/3 the price, it seems an easy choice.--
I Agree (Score:2)
Running "backup copies" without a mod chip certainly helps, too!
(Though.. I've got to say that the playstation controller is more ergonomic, IMO, than the Dreamcast's. That thing really hurts after a while.)
We really like Marvel vs Capcom 2, Virtual On, Tony Hawk 2, Jet Grind Radio, Cannon Spike, and Skies of Arcadia. There's definitely enough here for a $99 purchase, and if you get sick of it you can throw NetBSD on it.
Death is Good? (Score:3)
Because it brought the price down? Has it occured to you that nobody is going to write games for a discontinued platform?
__
PS2 vs Sega (Score:2)
All in all I don't get as much enjoyment from a console that I do from a PC game (mmm Fallout Tactics... drool), because they are never as in depth and they just don't offer the flexibility of a good computer game. But realistically (sp?) none of the big consoles suck, they wouldn't be here if they did.
Sega just can't get off the sauce (Score:3)
As far as comparing the PS2 and DC, just remember this: it's easy to love a dead man. I've played both and, sure, the DC is a great device inside a poorly conceived marketing and integration shell. But it's dead. If someone asked me if Maralyn Monroe was hotter than my wife, I would say "sure, but she's dead." [ridiculopathy.com]
Dreamcast = Jaguar = another ill timed console. (Score:2)
I think the dreamcast was a pretty good machine, however I think the timing of it's release was just bad. Idealy it should have been released to compete with the N64 and playstation however it's a generation behind. Not only that but with competitors like the playstation + the years weeks months of antisipation it was bound to fail. I like many other people chose not to buy a DreamCast but instead to save my cash for a PS2. Just like the Jaguar, an excellent machine, but given cost, and compition it fell in a bad lot. It was a good run for it's money with a few good titles, however not godo enough.
sega & commodore (Score:2)
As far as I remember Commodore had the same policy about marketing. And we all know what happend to them. Now, at the time when marketing is the most important thing, something like this was inevitable.
Re:Death is Good? (Score:2)
-Dom (thinking about buying one)
Re:"Poor marketing" (Score:2)
The real heart of 'marketing' is product positioning, product tying, pricing strategy, distribution strategy, and so on. For example, IBM spent far more money promoting OS/2 than Microsoft spent promoting Windows. But IBM got almost all of the above factors wrong, and Microsoft got it right. But everyone saw a stupid IBM commercial with nuns in it, and therefore they can point their finger at that instead of the numerous strategic fuckups that IBM made.
There's a similar argument to be made about Apple in the mid-90s. Their product line up was a confusing, overpriced mess, the clone licencees weren't helping them, they had huge production planning problems, and they had no clue who their primary markets were. Yet the Mac faithful was bitching about the quality of the advertising.
On topic, in Sega's case, their marketing failure was that they designed hardware that required a huge loss to get it out at the $199 price point. Note that the feature set and price point are almost purely marketing decisions. They didn't have the capital to sustain these losses endlessly until the market was mature and the production costs were cheaper. Boom - they had to fold their tent.
Re:Death is Good? (Score:3)
just check out the main emulation sites and they have instructions.
http://linuxdc.sourceforge.net/
Broadband adapter is in the code now.
100 dollar terminal anyone?
Hopethe rc5 cracker is ported
Re:Dreamcast (Score:2)
The PS2 games beat original PSX games up, but they don't compare very well against DC or PC games. N64 generally goes for a totally different look to its games, but it is behind DC as well.
-m
Dreamcast Dreamhardware (Score:2)
The graphics are great, the controller is decent (some people have complained, but I despise most other controllers, so this one isn't bad).
What I want is a PC-Hardware compatibility catridge.. something I can plug my VGA monitor, my keyboard, and mouse into. Why? (Dreamcast has VGA out with an awkward pinnout). All of this is available seperately, but I'd love the whole set in one little box.
And I'd like to find the 10baseT adapter somewhere...
My last item on my wishlist is an MP3 player that is good enough I could drop my Dreamcast in the trunk to play MP3s in my car. (The hardware is damn near perfect for such a concept; really, at $100 it is cheap, the controllers are high-speed serial (2mbit) and support an LCD panel (in VMU) already. So, a little redesign and rebuild and one should have a faceplate with easy, full controls... now if I could only hack hardware.
Yup (Score:4)
Unfortunately, they never created a solid business model. Hard work and frugality will get you a long way, but with their concept of lifetime employment people often ended up in the wrong jobs, were unproductive, and spent more time posturing than working.
They also have no idea how to deal with the international community. They tend to deal with businessmen from other countries as though they were Japanese, and so they fail miserably. Look at how they handled DC. It was doing fairly well here in America. Why not merely discontinue production in Japan? Or if they don't want to deal with it themselves, why not spin off a DC America company?
Anyway, the disaster that is Japan is one of the strongest arguments in favor of free markets and a well designed democracy there is.
you have no idea (Score:2)
NES, Genesis and SNES all had off-the-shelf CPU designs. They all also featured custom graphics chips. The reason SNES was "better" was because it was nearly three years younger than Genesis. Saturn used off-the-shelf CPUs (SH-2s) and three custom graphics chips. N64 used a MIPS R4000 CPU (old SGI design) and custom graphics (also by SGI), PSX used an R3000 (even older SGI design) and custom graphics. PS2 uses a R5000 (reletively dated SGI design) as the CPU. Gamecube is using a PowerPC.
Dreamcast fits this too. There was a PC version of the 3D tech used in DC, but make no mistake, the DC version of the PowerVR2 was the first. Considering the cost of the machine, Dreamcast still outclases PS2. There isn't a PS2 game out there that looks better than DC's best. They may come, but Dreamcast's hardware was never part of the equation. The hardware, and the tools to use it, are the best out there in terms of price and performance.
Why do you think the machine has become a hacker's favorite toy?
Re:Death is Good? (Score:2)
Just a sampling...
Soul Calibur (Possibly the best launch game for any system EVER)
Crazy Taxi
Phantasy Star Online
Jet Grind Radio
NFL2k
Tony Hawk 1/2
Shenmue
Skies of Arcadia / Grandia 2
Test Drive LeMans
MSR
And lets not forget the strangest game ever: SEAMAN!
Pete
Dreamcast's failure is all my fault. Sorry... (Score:5)
I jinxed the console. I predicted it's death the day I bought one at midnight on 9/9/99.
You see, any console I buy fails. Any console I don't purchase succeeds.
My history:
Re:Everybody knows everything about the game indus (Score:2)
Re:Dreamcast (Score:2)
(And I actually like the DreamCast controller -- it's a bit large for a child but it has just about the right feel for me. It's a bit ugly, but it works.)
/Brian
Re:Dreamcast = Jaguar = another ill timed console. (Score:2)
/Brian
Skies of Arcadia (Score:2)
If it had fewer annoying random encounters, and a better variety of monsters (why do I always feel like I'm fighting a salad?), it would be perfect.
Jon
Re:The Japanese. (Score:2)
by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday March 28, @09:36AM PDT (#87)
This is the common perception in US and Japan, but this is wrong.
The Japanese were kicking ass in the 80's because they had access to almost free capitol.
As soon as the recession hit, and the (essentially ) free money dried up, they looked as tough as wet sack of sh*t
Not offtopic at all. Posted at 2 for your pleasure, moderators. BTW, If people don't want to read AC posts, they don't need moderation help.
Re:Dreamcast (Score:2)
I bought my Dreamcast after it dropped through the floor myself, primarily for hack value (even though I haven't tried to hack it yet). I would never have bought a DC when it first came out because of the WinCE factor, though -- it wouldn't surprise me in the least if this was a major cause of its weak sales.
/Brian
Re:The Japanese. (Score:2)
Four companies I know of--Honda, Toyota, Sony and Matsushita Electric--have done well because were willing to adapt themselves to the needs of various international markets.
Think about it: when it comes to reasonably-priced quality automobiles, the brand names of Honda and Toyota always is more or less on top of the list. And when it comes to consumer electrical products, the names of Sony and Panasonic (Matshushita's worldwide brand name) also comes to mind to most people worldwide.
That is the reason why Sony Playstation became such a huge hit. And because Sony was able to leverage their brand recognition, it was able to outmarket all its competition and become #1 in console game systems.
Re:Dreamcast's failure is all my fault. Sorry... (Score:2)
Re:Donated? (Score:2)
Get your facts straight before making glib judgements.
Agreed: try Mad Katz (Score:2)
I actually prefer the Mad Katz Dreamcast controller to the Playstation/PS2 analog controllers! The analog joystick is more responsive, for one thing. This is saying a lot, because the PSX/PS2 controller was previously the best I had ever seen!
Only slight problem was that the Mad Katz VMU port took a little while to break in before it worked reliably.
Jon
Re:name a single good PS2 game (Score:2)
Consoles can differ in many ways: power, developer relations, and ease of programming, among others. All of which can contribute to on average higher or lower quality games.
PS2 is initially worse off on the ease-of-programming bit, but who knows what the future holds?
--
Re:I Agree (Score:2)
----
Re:Dreamcast's failure is all my fault. Sorry... (Score:2)
Hmm, no. But I did rent a Mega drive system from a corner shop while visiting friends in the UK several years ago...
Re:Dreamcast (Score:2)
/Brian
Donut forget Turok (Score:2)