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Games Entertainment

More Info on Phantom Game Console 443

MImeKillEr writes "Newsforge is reporting that the Phantom Game Console discussed on Slashdot is really a DRM-protected PC, sans floppy or CD running Windows XP. It uses a proprietary encryption method to protect the data on its harddrive, and the only thing that differentiates this 'game console' from a standard, Windows-running PC is that it has no way to get data on or off of it except through a dedicated connection to Infinium Labs' own servers." Newsforge and Slashdot are both part of OSDN.
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More Info on Phantom Game Console

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  • Fair use? (Score:5, Insightful)

    by inertia187 ( 156602 ) * on Thursday July 10, 2003 @12:56PM (#6407948) Homepage Journal
    When you pick up a pen in your own home, does the pen have a chain on it to remind you not to walk away with it? Maybe the refrigerator pen would, but a vast majority of pens in your home will not come with a chain because you don't want them.

    That's what these DRMs remind me of. They're *supposed* to be a gentle reminder for you to not break the law yet allow fair use. The idea that you can circumvent a DRM and get in trouble is ludicrous, to me.

    It's like my pen analogy. If you went to the store to buy a pen and *all* of the pens had chains on them, you'd have to buy a pen with a chain on it. Would you have to use the chain? Could you remove the chain? You certainly could remove the chain from your own pen.

    I don't understand how fair use got so screwed up like this. Hey, shouldn't this article be on yro.slashdot.org?
    • Re:Fair use? (Score:5, Insightful)

      by Aadain2001 ( 684036 ) on Thursday July 10, 2003 @01:00PM (#6407989) Journal
      This is a gaming consol, and as such you are not required to buy it. If they do almost no business, and the number 1 reason the marketing department sights is the nasty DRM employeed in the device, both they and another companies thinking of doing something similar will sit up and take notice. Vote with your wallet. It's the quickest way to get a company's attention.
      • Doesn't this argument apply to PCs as well?

        You're not required to buy a PC. There's a whole world of tae-bo and yoga and other types of entertainment out there!
      • Re:Fair use? (Score:5, Insightful)

        by TrekkieGod ( 627867 ) on Thursday July 10, 2003 @01:14PM (#6408099) Homepage Journal
        *I'll* definitely vote with my wallet. How do you propose to convince the millions of people who have no idea what DRM is to do the same?

        Only problem with any type of voting...you're in the minority, you lose, whether you're right or not. And the whole "DRM prevents pirates, pirates are terrorists" campaigns make sure that we're in the minority. The user who doesn't want to use his own hardware any differently, ie the parents of the small children this is aimed at, sees no difference between a DRM enabled and a DRM disabled console, and hears the big companies saying that DRM is good.

        • Re:Fair use? (Score:5, Interesting)

          by EinarH ( 583836 ) on Thursday July 10, 2003 @01:40PM (#6408305) Journal
          Voting with the wallet is a good thing, but I prefer to vote with my brain. If they are going to sell this below production cost*(like XBox) at a price I find reasonable, I'll but it.
          It these people really are so stupid that they tink that the current way of selling consoles is a good business model, well, good luck..

          If somene breaks the crypto and DRM in a way that makes it possible to run Linux, well guess what; I'll say fuck their crypto and DRM scheme:
          I'm running Linux on *my* box.

          *Maybe not, sice they are a uppstart company with less cash to burn off.

          • Re:Fair use? (Score:4, Insightful)

            by Acidic_Diarrhea ( 641390 ) on Thursday July 10, 2003 @01:51PM (#6408421) Homepage Journal
            Listen, this type of approach always gets brought up whenever someone is discussing consoles. Sure, you can buy the console for $500 (no idea what it will cost) and they might lose $200 because it cost them $700 to make. But if they don't sell the console to you, then they lose $700 because it is just sitting in a warehouse, unsold. Honestly, I see this type of threat made all the time. Think about the economics of it just a little bit.
            • Re:Fair use? (Score:5, Insightful)

              by Jahf ( 21968 ) on Thursday July 10, 2003 @02:06PM (#6408533) Journal
              Except that if you and 1,000,000 friends buy the box but no software and cost the company $200, they're bound to make more and lose more. If no one buys it, sure, they lose $700 on the first round but they don't make any more.

              Does my argument have holes? Sure. So does yours.

              1) Any company with the financing to pull off a successful game console probably isn't going to notice the damage done by either method.

              2) Both methods hurt the distribution channels at least as much as they hurt the manufacturer.

              If you want the machine, buy it. If you don't, don't. Economics will sort it out in the end.
            • Re:Fair use? (Score:3, Interesting)

              by EinarH ( 583836 )
              I think you, misunderstood my post.
              I'm not going to buy it merly to inflict economical damages on them because of their business modell etc.

              My point was that; If I want this box, and the price is right(for me and my wallet) I will buy it and run Linux whether they like it or not.

        • Har, har. (Score:5, Insightful)

          by Inoshiro ( 71693 ) on Thursday July 10, 2003 @01:49PM (#6408404) Homepage
          I really doubt this "Phantom" will make any dent whatsoever. Look what it's up against: Xbox, GameCube, GameBoy Advance, Playstation 2.

          These are all focused consoles with their own markets. There is overlap, but it's fairly well satured. Everyone who has broadband and cares about games will have an Xbox with Xbox Live!. Everyone who wants neat Japanese games will have a GameCube and PS2. Etc!

          The Phantom is a joke. MS can pull off PC components in a game console because they have clout with nVidia and other people to spend millions of dollars fabbing specific parts. That company probably doesn't, as evidenced by their use of XP as the environment for the console.

          What kind of game console doesn't have a bare-bones OS and SDK libs that are meant only for running one application ever?
        • Re:Fair use? (Score:3, Insightful)

          by gallen1234 ( 565989 )

          *I'll* definitely vote with my wallet. How do you propose to convince the millions of people who have no idea what DRM is to do the same?

          As much as it pains me to say this perhaps there's nothing to convince them of. If the general consumers purchase the system and don't find the restrictions offensive and recommend the systems to their friends and coworkers who also don't find the restrictions offensive then the market will have spoken. While it's possible that the first wave of consumers will buy th

        • Re:Fair use? (Score:3, Insightful)

          This almost has a ring simular to the whole Circuit City DivX (not the codec) thing. The nice thing about current game boxes and PCs is that if you cancel your XBox Live! accout or turn off your internet, you are still left with something you can run games on or keep an electronic diary. With this thing, if you stop paying for service you end up with a junk box full of parts that probably aren't usable anywhere else. That's $400, how much ever you spent on games, and how much you've spent on the subscrip
      • Re:Fair use? (Score:5, Interesting)

        by Trolling4Dollars ( 627073 ) on Thursday July 10, 2003 @01:42PM (#6408335) Journal
        Vote with your wallet. It's the quickest way to get a company's attention.

        Voting with your wallet almost never works for me because my tastes and ideals differ so greatly from most Americans. You can't say that "voting with your wallet" is really a useful approach for everyone. I think the best approach is to try and educate others why it is that I choose to do things the way I do. If enough people are persuaded to see things the way I see them, then it all works out for the best. (Assuming that they want to do things the way I do them)

        The only problem with my approach is that it puts me in the position of being the promoter. I hate being a promoter. But if I want the world to become a slightly better place, the only way to do it is to promote fair views. Kind of sucks in a way.

    • Re:Fair use? (Score:2, Insightful)

      That's what these DRMs remind me of. They're *supposed* to be a gentle reminder for you to not break the law yet allow fair use. The idea that you can circumvent a DRM and get in trouble is ludicrous, to me.

      "Fair Use", as taught in law classes, doesn't require an exact copy. Fair Use is quoting from a book, reading a book--maybe even writing a parody of said book. It's not, necessarily, copying the book onto your PDA so you can read it wherever you want to.

      DRM systems aren't supposed to be a gentle rem
      • Re:Fair use? (Score:5, Insightful)

        by Xentax ( 201517 ) on Thursday July 10, 2003 @01:14PM (#6408101)
        It's not, necessarily, copying the book onto your PDA so you can read it wherever you want to.

        I agree with most of what you said, but this statement is erroneous.

        The right to format-shift (e.g. making a CD copy of an audio cassette you've legally bought) and the right to make "collections" (e.g. making a "Bob's favorites" CD with selected tracks from several CD's he legally owns) are both protected by the Fair Use Doctrine. The latter doesn't readily apply to books, but the former is a fairly direct application.

        So, yes, you CAN create an eBook from a Book you've bought (assuming you had some means of practically doing so), for your personal and noncommercial use. Obviously, distributing the eBook file(s) of that book to any and everyone is a different story, since doing so is copying, or allowing others to copy, a version of the entire book.

        Xentax
    • by paranoic ( 126081 ) on Thursday July 10, 2003 @01:12PM (#6408086)
      If pens where made by software companies
      1. There would be no guarantee that they would work or do anything useful at all.
      2. You may not reverse engineer them.
      3. You may not use them to write disparaging remarks about the company.
      4. Amazon.com would own the patent to writing with them.
      5. The ink would run out at predetermined time and only refills made by the company would work.
      6. Only the purchaser may use the pen.


      Of course, the new economic model would require a fee for every letter written by the pen.
      • by Surak ( 18578 ) * <surak&mailblocks,com> on Thursday July 10, 2003 @01:39PM (#6408301) Homepage Journal
        Don't forget that clicking the button on the end of the pen indicates your acceptance of these terms of use.

        And your pen would surrepititously write information about what you wrote and send it to the manufacturer whenever you 'upgraded' the ink cartridge.

        And you could only use paper compatible with your pen, of course. And the company would make sure that only *its* paper would work with its pen.

        And some people would independently develop their own "open" pen and paper systems, where pens and papers would work interchangeably, only to be sued by SCO for violating the copyright on their pen design.

    • Please sing this song to the tune of "camptown races" Intellectual Property Is-not, is-not Physical Property So analogies suck (chorus) Mod parent down.. Mod parent down! That kind of crap isn't "insightful" Mod Parent down. (i didnt say it would be a _good_ song). for thos attempting to be "funny" after this comment: "camptown races" is in the public domain
    • Bogus. In your case, the chain would need to prevent the purchaser from created 700 identical pens by running a script, not from removing it.
  • It'd be great to get away from physical media--anything that does away with pointless jobs is good. Copyright, of course is bad. Overall a step forward.
    • So I guess you'd rather have works never enter the public domain, right?

      That's exactly what copyright was established to ensure.
  • by Megor1 ( 621918 ) on Thursday July 10, 2003 @12:59PM (#6407977) Homepage
    So it's like an Xbox (Really a PC)but you have to download all yours games...
  • Just like you can't get into the XBOX...
  • the only thing... (Score:5, Insightful)

    by sulli ( 195030 ) * on Thursday July 10, 2003 @12:59PM (#6407980) Journal
    the only thing that differentiates this 'game console' from a standard, Windows-running PC is that it has no way to get data on or off of it except through a dedicated connection to Infinium Labs' own servers.

    Yet.

  • weird (Score:5, Insightful)

    by Boromir son of Faram ( 645464 ) on Thursday July 10, 2003 @12:59PM (#6407981) Homepage
    I have trouble believing that any game companies are going to pony up development costs and then not release an identical product for normal PCs. At which point, why buy the console?

    Seems like they came up with the product by drawing up a list of things it won't do. Well, add another item to that list: it won't sell.
    • Re:weird (Score:4, Interesting)

      by CaptainSuperBoy ( 17170 ) on Thursday July 10, 2003 @01:22PM (#6408153) Homepage Journal
      It looks like they are hoping the subscription model and large library will appeal to an untapped market of casual gamers, who might not pony up $50 per game but would happily pay a subscription fee for access to a bunch of games.
      • Re:weird (Score:3, Insightful)

        by Jason Earl ( 1894 )

        Yeah, casual gamers are going to plop down $400 on a console that requires a $10 a month service fee to play games that you have to purchase separately. Oh, and you have to pay separately for broadband. Anyone that thinks that this is likely might want to invest in my specially-reinforced upside-down umbrella I invented just in case it happens to start raining money.

        Let's face it. The "kiddie" game market is currently being cornered by flash games at places like nickjr.com. No parent is going to pay P

    • What about upgrades? Is that going to be something else it won't do? If I lease it, I expect to get an updated one when game requirements change. Would the video card handle Doom3 or Half-Life 2? If you buy it, are you going to need to buy a new every year or so?

      Doesn't Yahoo have a games on demand service for PCs close to this, but with less hassle? For consoles why not rent the games?

      I can see their arguement about cheaper games, but if I wait a little while most PC games drop down to around $25-

  • by FrostedWheat ( 172733 ) on Thursday July 10, 2003 @01:00PM (#6407984)
    I predict only phantom sales for this ... thing.
  • by Meat Blaster ( 578650 ) on Thursday July 10, 2003 @01:00PM (#6407991)
    We're rapidly approaching the point where consoles are pointless. Commodity hardware is cheaper, computers offer a far superior gaming experience, and the current leader in the field got its legs dominating the PC market. This just sounds like that convergence thing they were always expecting.

    What with Media PCs picking up acceptance, I wouldn't be surprised to see a game/network/PVR combo soon.

    • by radish ( 98371 ) on Thursday July 10, 2003 @01:09PM (#6408059) Homepage
      current leader in the field got its legs dominating the PC market

      I assume you mean Xbox? You must come from some other planet where "3rd best selling out of 3" equates to "leader in the field".
    • Yea, I'm sure the $9.4 billion dollar gaming industry (IDSA's 2002 figure) was all computer games. Beside nobody I know owns an XBox, PSII or Gamecube. Seems like everyone's running out and buying a new pc for the latest and greatest games, oh wait...
    • I think you nailed it on the point about a combo type box coming soon (who knows, maybe that's what the Phantom is, given that the site tells you fuck all about what the damn box is supposed to be really). I disagree about consoles going away though. Some people don't want to use their computers for gaming at all, they'd rather sit down and play a quick few levels of Mario or whatever. Not every gamer is a hardcore gamer, there are plenty of casual ones that can't be bothered with the intricacies of main
    • by badasscat ( 563442 ) <basscadet75@NOspAm.yahoo.com> on Thursday July 10, 2003 @01:23PM (#6408160)
      We're rapidly approaching the point where consoles are pointless. Commodity hardware is cheaper, computers offer a far superior gaming experience, and the current leader in the field got its legs dominating the PC market.

      Except for that last part (which is 100% false to begin with), people have been saying this for at least 20 years. There's always been a leapfrog thing going on between consoles and PC's. You look at the PS2 now and say "a cheap PC can do those graphics better" - then when PS3 is unveiled, you'll wonder if PC graphics will ever catch up again. 4 years later, the cycle will repeat. Just the way it is.

      You could argue just as easily that consoles have become commidities. Practically everybody has one, and they're cheap enough now that almost anyone that can afford a TV can afford a game console (adjusted for inflation, my Intellivision cost $900 in today's dollars in 1980, compared to $180 for a PlayStation 2 or Xbox or $149 for a GameCube). Plus, the economics of the industry are such that there's no way dedicated consoles are ever going away - all consoles really are are mini-PC's with their own DRM, and it's always been that way going back to the Atari 2600 (which used off-the-shelf computer parts - the reason why Activision was able to successfully argue in court that they did not need a license to produce third-party games for the system). Back in the cartridge days the DRM was physical - it was exceedingly expensive to produce your own cartridges and required a lot of technological knowhow. Sure, we didn't call it DRM back then, but that's what it was, and nobody ever complained about it on game consoles. Today, the DRM is software-based, but the concept is the same - you can only play these games on one specific device, and you can't easily copy them. It's the DRM, the stable, predictable hardware platform and the co-branding that attracts developers and publishers, and Infinium understands maybe 2/3 of that. What they don't understand is that without a big name and lots of money to promote both the system and individual games (including third-party games), there's not a compelling reason for a publisher to want to associate themselves with the Phantom.

      As to your last statement, I would gather from your comment that you assume Microsoft is the "current leader" in the game console arena. MS is a very distant second to Sony - very distant, and further distant than they were a year ago (MS's sales have dropped year to year, while Sony's have risen). I'm talking a 4 to 1 difference. And they're losing buckets of money on the system. Experience in the PC arena is certainly no guarantee of success in the console arena - they're two different markets, and if you don't understand that difference you will get trounced by the rest of the game industry. Infinium seems to "get" part of it, but I don't see that they have either the will or the way to really get big-name publishers on board with this system, and I don't think they necessarily understand exactly what consumers want, either (the whole broadband download thing).
      • by NaugaHunter ( 639364 ) on Thursday July 10, 2003 @02:16PM (#6408598)
        If I had River Raid, and a friend had Pitfall II, we could simply trade cartridges. That's it. No online registration, no serial numbers, no boot-sector tampering. In other words, the concept is not exactly the same. You couldn't copy them, but you could use them with as many different devices as you'd like.

        Yes, this is partly because having overly-difficult-too-copy hardware is different from fairly-easy-to-copy CD/DVDs. The problem is when DRM goes too far, and prevents legal use. Want to use your software at a friend's? Sorry. Want to install it on your sister's so she can play when you're not home? Nope. Tired of it, and want to sell it? Uh-uh - you don't own anything to sell.

        So really, we didn't have DRM then. There were ways to copy the ROMs (they're all on line, if you want them). It just wasn't easy. Now that it is easy, DRM makes it impossible - removing legal use as well as illegal use.
    • by PhoenixFlare ( 319467 ) on Thursday July 10, 2003 @01:28PM (#6408202) Journal
      Commodity hardware is cheaper

      Please show me a computer built for $149.99 + tax that can pump out the same level of graphics detail, texturing, and framerate that my GameCube does. Oh, and you'd have to give people a $50 game and a joypad free to match it at the moment, too.

      computers offer a far superior gaming experience

      Speak for yourself...I'm guessing you don't actually own a console. I won't go into a huge listing, but there are many, many quality console games out there that beat the hell out of any PC games.

      and the current leader in the field got its legs dominating the PC market

      They may be leading in sales right now, but I don't think that'll last forever. Seems like a bit of an ominous sign that the XBox has barely been out a year, and yet they've had to cut the selling price almost in half to stay competitive already.

      What with Media PCs picking up acceptance, I wouldn't be surprised to see a game/network/PVR combo soon.

      Whatever happened to using a game console/device/whatever you call it for games? I don't want an everything-box, thank you.

  • Not in my home (Score:2, Insightful)

    by r84x ( 650348 )
    Personally, I really don't care how cool this system could be, I don't want what is basically an extension of some corporate incredibly proprietary system in my home. A corporation should not have power over things in my home to that extent.

    This is just the next step from the Xbox, and I cannot imagine having NO control over something in my own home. The Xbox is bad enough, so I say no thanks to the phantom.

    • Re:Not in my home (Score:3, Insightful)

      by NanoGator ( 522640 )
      "Personally, I really don't care how cool this system could be, I don't want what is basically an extension of some corporate incredibly proprietary system in my home. A corporation should not have power over things in my home to that extent. "

      A.) It's a GAME MACHINE. Lighten up.

      B.) How is this different from the GameCube, XBOX, PS 1&2, GameBoy, GameBoy Advance, Dreamcast (sorta), Saturn, Nintendo 64, 32X, Genesis, SNES, NES, Jaguar, Atari 2600/5200/7800, or Master System? I got news for ya, they w
      • Re:Not in my home (Score:3, Insightful)

        by ksheka ( 189669 )
        The difference is I can still play my Atari 2600 games 20 years after I buy them, without paying a dime to anyone except the electric company to power my system (few cents an hour?).

        Who on earth thinks that I'll be able to play games on this machine a couple decades after the company goes belly up?
  • Oh no.... (Score:2, Funny)

    by StaceyRey ( 687641 )

    that it has no way to get data on or off of it except through a dedicated connection to Infinium Labs' own servers...

    So when I get that nice "We had a problem, send email to Microsoft to report the error" dialog there's a good chance they won't receive it? How will they ever know what happened? ;-)

  • Wow (Score:5, Funny)

    by Lord_Slepnir ( 585350 ) on Thursday July 10, 2003 @01:01PM (#6408003) Journal
    All of that security....DRM....encryption....requiring a connection to Infinium Labs' own computers....

    I give it 3 weeks before it's completly cracked and reverse engineered. Thanks, Infinium Labs', for giving me (and dozens of other nerds) something to do this semester!

  • by bethane ( 686358 ) on Thursday July 10, 2003 @01:02PM (#6408007) Homepage Journal
    Roberts told me it will probably take somewhere between 750,000 and one million subscribers to start turning a profit, based on $9.95 per month. This doesn't look good to me. Seems they feel that they'll have to have something like $88,000,000 to $100,000,000 per year to break even? That's JUST TO BREAK EVEN!?! This certainly smells like a bad ".com" bussiness plan to me. Is it buying all the licences for the games? Someone help me understand why he has to have that sort of cash flow, just to break even. After all, you can build rather large networks and even support them for a heck of a lot less than that. His console is pretty much a PC, not exactly huge costs there. Besides, the purchaser is paying his share. So, is the lion share going to pay for content? If he has to have that sort of cash flow to pay for content, that surely sounds like he isn't brokering very good deals to support his business model.
  • by syr ( 647840 )
    Just a simple question, really. Why do we care that NewsForge and Slashdot are both run by OSDN? The editors are appending this statement to the submission like they feel ethically required to make the comment.

    Usually you see comments like this on CNN.com or in Time Magazine. Where you see them bashing or praising a part of AOL Time Warner and they have an ethical obligation to report that Time/CNN is owned by AOL TW.

    GameTab [gametab.com] - game news & reviews. compiled.

    • I agree.

      I don't give two cares that you guys are linking to another part of your own network. You do not need to tell me that.

      In fact, it doesn't matter one bit. Give preference to all the OSDN sites, I don't care. If you ignore good stuff on the other sites, Slashdot dies. I don't think that will happen.

      Sorry. It just irritated me too.
    • For the same reason a package of peanuts proclaims:

      "Warning: contains nuts"

  • until someone suggests:

    Making a Beowulf cluster of these

    Hacking them until they become Linux terminals

    That MS will buy them up/out or do the same thing

  • by Art_Vandelai ( 596101 ) on Thursday July 10, 2003 @01:02PM (#6408014)
    At least not for the home user - how much would it cost to set up a "dedicated connection"?

    Maybe in high-end gaming establishments - arcades, etc. But then, why use a PC-like platform?

    I could see this working something line the NTN game consoles that are in bars, where everyone across multiple locations can compete all at once. Still, setting up completely dedicated connections without using public networks makes this a huge undertaking and probably not worth the cost.

    And if it did use public networks - well who would want this, why not just buy a PC?

    • Cable, DSL... (Score:3, Informative)

      by malakai ( 136531 ) *
      It simply needs broadband. By dedicated connection they mean plug it into your home's hub. And before someone says that Home Users don't have access to broadband at the scales needed to pull this off:

      The FCC released their biannual report (.pdf file) today, which reported 16.2 million broadband customers (households) in the U.S. as of June 2002, up from 9.6 million one year earlier. The report also indicates that most users should be well within the range of a broadband option. "Our analysis indicates tha

  • Why Windows? (Score:3, Interesting)

    by MBCook ( 132727 ) <foobarsoft@foobarsoft.com> on Thursday July 10, 2003 @01:05PM (#6408033) Homepage
    Why are they running Windows? In all seriousness, why not Linux or something else? If they run Windows, then the must pay MS money for every console they make. So even if the console becomes a success (I doubt it, based on the number of vaporware consoles over the past few years, and the fact that we have 3 big players, which I think is market saturation) they'll be paying some of their gross income to MS. Does this make sense to anyone? Because it sure doesn't make much sense to me.

    The only real plus I can see would be DirectX. That said, Linux has OpenGL, OpenAL, SDL, Allego, SVGAlib, and anything else you want. I would expect the company would make a DevKit anyway that had their OWN video/audio/network APIs. So I ask again, why Windows?

    • Re:Why Windows? (Score:3, Informative)

      by Kaa ( 21510 )
      Why are they running Windows? In all seriousness, why not Linux or something else?

      The point of this box is to play games.

      How many games are available for Windows? How many games are available for Linux?

      Geez...
    • Re:Why Windows? (Score:3, Insightful)

      by techstar25 ( 556988 )
      It's so they can inflate the "number of software titles", when they launch. There are millions of shareware tetris/pacman/solitaire clones that will already play on their Windows machine. So technically, at launch it will have more software titles than ANY OTHER console. Linux would have Tux racer and ...well anyway I agree, linux would be a better idea.

      If for no other reason, just imagine that MS could pull the plug on the licenses at any moment if they think it's cutting into Xbox sales, which it likely
    • Re:Why Windows? (Score:5, Insightful)

      by Zathrus ( 232140 ) on Thursday July 10, 2003 @01:32PM (#6408231) Homepage
      The only real plus I can see would be DirectX. That said, Linux has OpenGL, OpenAL, SDL, Allego, SVGAlib, and anything else you want.

      Anything else, except DirectX that is.

      Now that we've gotten that out of the way, count how many modern games are written for OpenGL, OpenAL, SDL, Allego, or SVGAlib. Now count how many are written for DirectX.

      Now if you want people to port to your platform, which is the safer bet?

      Sure, you can (and probably will) release your own SDK, but you still have to deal with reality. Game makers have 4 primary platforms right now - PCs, PS2, Xbox, and Gamecube. Xbox gets to leverage PC development since they're not too far off from one another -- you need to change things certainly, but the core engine can remain the same. Mostly. If you're creating a new platform then you may as well either leverage off one of the established platforms, or have one helluva lot of capital behind you to create a new one and lure developers over. Since you'll be going up against Microsoft, Sony, and Nintendo, I really hope you have a lot of capital.

      Since two of the four platforms are completely and utterly closed - Nintendo and PS2 - you only have one option to leverage. DirectX. Done right you can actually do better leveraging than the Xbox... although it's not sounding like they're doing this.

      Oh, and before you flame me as a Windows bigot, I'm not. Yeah, I use it. I also use Redhat and code for Unix. I prefer Unix. But that doesn't mean I put blinders on and whine about how the world should work instead of understanding how it actually does.
  • Phantom price? TV? (Score:3, Interesting)

    by Schnapple ( 262314 ) <tomkiddNO@SPAMgmail.com> on Thursday July 10, 2003 @01:06PM (#6408036) Homepage
    running Windows XP
    . So that's like $200 right there...
    and the only thing that differentiates this 'game console' from a standard, Windows-running PC
    Well that and the fact that it hooks up to a TV, right?
  • by grimani ( 215677 ) on Thursday July 10, 2003 @01:07PM (#6408042)
    What's the point?

    If development for it is exactly the same as the PC, why develop games for this console?

    PCs number in the hundreds of millions. Nobody in their right minds would develop a game exclusively for it - maybe a port after a PC release, but this will never be a primary platform.

    The XBox is similar, although noteably different in one respect - Microsoft is a huge games publisher and owns quite a few development houses as well.

    I predict a quick, merciless death due to the following reasons:

    1) Lack of good, exclusive content results in lackluster hardware sales, which results in lack of good content...

    2) There is another company trying the same approach. That company controls DirectX. Does anyone really think Microsoft will sit still while some upstart to beats down the XBox? Expect Microsoft to hit back. Their weapon of choice would be DirectX.

    3) Lack of differentiation from PC, if most games are available on PC as well. XBox suffers in this regard also, although Microsoft has done an admirable job of making content exclusive. It remains to be seen how long they are willing to throw away money to support XBox; we all know that Halo would have made much more money had the PC version been released by now also.
  • I'm Sorry (Score:5, Insightful)

    by Dark Paladin ( 116525 ) * <jhummel.johnhummel@net> on Thursday July 10, 2003 @01:07PM (#6408044) Homepage
    But already, there's no way in H-E-double-hockey-sticks I'm going to use this.

    First, I'm somebody who likes to play the games. No problem there. I even like to play the PC games (FPS belongs on the PC - why I'm waiting for Halo OS X before playing it).

    But I also have a job, two kids, a wife who likes the wild monkey sex at times - and every so often, I have to travel.

    So for me, I might take my PS2/Gamecube/GBA on the road (I'd take the Xbox, but it would bring my luggage over the weight limit....), or plug a game into the laptop (my Powerbook plays Max Payne and such pretty surprisingly well).

    But I can't imagine paying for a mothly service for a game I don't own, can't touch for myself, maybe sell later like I would a book or a CD. (Agh - RIAA lawyers - run!) I'm odd that way - I need that sense of ownership, that I can go to my little library and just pull it out whenever I want and play, not wait for the downloads/reinstalls (since it may be years until I replay an old classic, like Deus Ex or Wasteland or Fallout - you get the drill).

    The system must also require a bandwidth connection, and while I'm sure they won't download the entire game to the hard drive (which, seeing as more games (aka [sarcasm]Baldur's Gate III: 20 CD's and counting[/sarcasm]....)), they'll still have to stream it. And I have other things I can be doing with my bandwidth.

    I'm not saying it's a horrible idea for everybody - just not for me. For others, I could be wrong.
    • by rampant mac ( 561036 ) on Thursday July 10, 2003 @01:45PM (#6408358)
      "a wife who likes the wild monkey sex at times"

      Whoa there fella, this is Slashdot, you might want to simplify that terminology into something a little more geek specific. Suggestions would include:

      a wife who likes a hot, throbbing beowulf in the zeitgeist

      a wife who likes a little "CowboyNeal" first thing in the morning

      according to NetCraft our sex life is dying

      I "SCO" her at times and she always comes back for more

    • by brkello ( 642429 )
      Everyone is responding to this line...so I apologize for doing this also, but I can't resist.

      But I also have a job, two kids, a wife who likes the wild monkey sex at times - and every so often, I have to travel.

      I am fine with the whole wife thing...but do you have to involve your work and kids in the monkey sex too?
  • Called it! (Score:4, Funny)

    by Astrorunner ( 316100 ) on Thursday July 10, 2003 @01:08PM (#6408049) Journal

    Re:Too many games? (Score:2)
    by Astrorunner (316100) on Tuesday January 21, @10:06PM (#5131985)
    From the appearance of the case (they have a semi-transparent front-view on their site) it appears that it is a standard pc mother board in the case. I can make out 3 or 4 pci slots on the left side, cpu with heat sink, and apparently the power supply / fan on the right.

    The only way, to my mind, they can truly claim to have 32,000 games to start would be that the system is basically a slimmed down windows machine capable of running today (or yesterday's) games.

    Obviously, I'm simplifying things greatly -- they have to build the whole distribution method and so forth -- I can imagine them shipping games over broadband as ghost images. They'd only need to do a real install on one machine, take an image, etc etc.

    The catch is, it will run today's games and yesterday's games, but it won't run *tomorrow's* games since you're really not going to be able to upgrade it.
    "


    *gloat gloat gloat*
  • Nice quote: (Score:5, Funny)

    by cK-Gunslinger ( 443452 ) on Thursday July 10, 2003 @01:09PM (#6408061) Journal
    As one industry observer pointed out when he first heard the Infinium Labs story, "You buy the console. You buy the games. Then you pay to play the games you bought on the console you bought. It's sort of like buying an arcade game but still having to put quarters in. And ads!"
    Reminds me of "Funny Farm" when the telco installed a payphone in Chevy Chase's house.

    Yeah, sign me up! ;-)
  • ... they said DRM! Everybody get your pitchforks out! Quick, before somebody interjects some reason into the situation!
  • by Ian Wolf ( 171633 ) on Thursday July 10, 2003 @01:11PM (#6408081) Homepage
    Really, the only thing that differentiates this 'game console' from a standard, Windows-running PC is that it has no way to get data on or off of it except through a dedicated connection to Infinium Labs' own servers via your broadband ISP, plus the fact that if you try to open it up or modify it or grab data from the hard drive, bad things will happen, starting with violation of the terms under which you will lease or purchase the Phantom.

    The first question is why would I want this when there are PS2's and Xbox's to be had for less money. Especially when you consider that this is going to retail for around $400 plus a $9.95 per month subscription fee and some games will have a seperate charge not included in the subscription (so I gathered, I wasn't certain if the 9.95 subscription was for a service or a lease). All told the cost of this device is going to be steep.

    Now on to my next biggest concern. Downloading games over the internet is all well and good for some games, but you're still going to have to wait a long time for it to download. This becomes even more evident to those users who have substandard broadband providers like I do.

    Don't get me wrong, I think software delivery over the web is the wave of the future. In fact, I download a large number of the software I use (legally), but some titles are just too damn big.
  • Once again, the DRM world prepares to provide the smart-people-with-spare-time world with more amusement. Woo-Hoo!!
  • I believe the original version of this was called "XBox". I think I'll have about as much chance of seeing these in the wild as I did of seeing an Indrema (the major difference is I would have loved to see an Indrema in the wild).
    • This strikes me as being more like DivX. Not the video codec, but the pay-to-watch DVD system Circuit City tried to push when DVD video was just making it to stores.

      To refresh those who don't know/remember: It was a lot like DSS pay-per-view. The DivX player connected to a phone line, and you would buy a movie disc and be authorized to view it for a certain period of time. Afterward you could buy more time or throw the disc away.

      Thankfully it flopped big-time. Mainly because you could buy a DVD and own yo
  • VIRTUAL ARCADE! (Score:5, Interesting)

    by LiberalApplication ( 570878 ) on Thursday July 10, 2003 @01:14PM (#6408103)
    I've said it before, and I'll say it again:

    It would be fantastic if they could strike up a deal with the proper-owners of arcade boards and titles to set up a system where the Phantom runs a modified version of MAME, and Inifinium Labs' networks provide on-request ROMs to subscribers. Every time you hit "insert quarter", you get charged a nickel. Two cents go to the holder of the copyright, two to Infinium Labs, and one cent to PETA (I just threw that last one in for fun).

    It'd be like having an infinitely large arcade in your home, and you wouldn't be doing it illegally. The people who wrote the software will be reimbursed, possibly even twenty five years after they stopped producing that game.

    Also, imagine if they implemented something along the lines of Kaillera [kaillera.com]. You could team up with your kid brother from a thousand miles away to play NARC [www.mame.dk] together, just like you did in high school, at the corner arcade.

  • No CD? (Score:5, Insightful)

    by lightspawn ( 155347 ) on Thursday July 10, 2003 @01:14PM (#6408107) Homepage
    So... let me get this straight.

    If I buy this console, and a friend buys it too, we can't trade games?

    Do I even "own" the games I pay for?

    What happens when the console breaks down and I want to replace it? Did all my games vanish with it? Phantom, indeed!

    Considering the amount of games available for my non-phantom computers, why would I ever want to bother with it? I wanted to be able to root for the underdog here, but there's just no way.
  • Jigga, pleaze (Score:3, Insightful)

    by serial frame ( 236591 ) on Thursday July 10, 2003 @01:15PM (#6408111)
    No way this will work, because there will still be thousands of people who would insist upon owning actual copies of the games they play. There may be other things to analyze, such as bandwidth costs, etc (depending on the sizes of the games). It would be interesting to see them offering broadband to go along with the game, because thousands upon thousands of people STILL use dial-up.

    And from the sounds of it, game licensing seem pretty exclusive to Infinium Labs for new games. Will they be offering any assistance to third-party developers, or will they be reaping the benefits for themselves?

    I'm pretty sure these ideas have already been thought of, but I'm just tossing them back onto the table. *shrug*
  • If the only way to get data in or out of the system is via connection to outside servers, then I wouldn't want to own one. I want joysticks and a keyboard, at least, to input my data!
  • Why is it that everytime any OSDN site is mentioned in a slashdot blurb - the blurb gets "Somesite and Slashdot are both part of the OSDN network" added to it?

    As for the Phantom Machine - I don't think it matters how proprietary this box is (considering all Consoles ARE very proprietary anyway) it's gonna come down to WHO has licensing rights to make games for it and WHAT games will be available on it.

    It could be the best hardware ever designed in a console, but if it only plays Super Mighty Duck 3D - its
  • Maybe this is a dumb question but ...

    How do you - like - load games on it?
    • Here (empasis mine):
      It uses a proprietary encryption method to protect the data on its harddrive, and the only thing that differentiates this 'game console' from a standard, Windows-running PC is that it has no way to get data on or off of it except through a dedicated connection to Infinium Labs' own servers.

      Answer the question?

  • by WC as Kato ( 675505 ) on Thursday July 10, 2003 @01:23PM (#6408166)
    This is a risky proposition for the consumer. What would you do with this crippled PC if the company goes bankrupt? You can't use it anymore. You can't even run local games. It may not even be fit for modding. But I'm sure a true geek will manage a mod to get a blue LED on the thing.
  • Sounds Familiar (Score:4, Insightful)

    by shoemakc ( 448730 ) on Thursday July 10, 2003 @01:28PM (#6408201) Homepage

    "As one industry observer pointed out when he first heard the Infinium Labs story, "You buy the console. You buy the games. Then you pay to play the games you bought on the console you bought. It's sort of like buying an arcade game but still having to put quarters in. And ads!"

    Sounds like Circuit City's DIVX to me. God knows that went well.

    -Chris
  • Or not. (Score:2, Insightful)

    by tevenson ( 625386 )
    So, they want me to buy a set top computer that runs XP, won't let me change anything, and can only play games I download off the net. All this for only $400 and a monthly fee?

    Wow, or I could spend that money making my OWN set top box which could:
    • Connect to my wireless network to stream movies and music from my basement fileserver.
    • Play games from the vast library that exists for PC (read: free if you're smart)
    • Allow me to play older console games via emulators and a gamepad pro
    • Hell, since I've got t
  • by plcurechax ( 247883 ) on Thursday July 10, 2003 @01:46PM (#6408374) Homepage
    uses a proprietary encryption scheme

    translated:

    Some crappy, broken scheme baked up by programmers not professional cryptographers.

    I'm glad it is not my venture captial money backing this broken puppy.

    Sigh. Snake Oil FAQ [interhack.net] or the Crypto mini FAQ [schlafly.net] and various Cryptogram [counterpane.com] will remind you, proprietary encryption is very bad.
  • by felonious ( 636719 ) on Thursday July 10, 2003 @02:07PM (#6408544) Journal
    With all of this DRM talk it seems as if it's the most important subject these days. If anything was ever the epitome of "big brother" it would be DRM. You buy a product but don't own it and only have certain uses for it as stipulated by what ever multi-national conglomerate.

    These corporations are yielding more and more power and with their deep pockets they are shaping our future laws. Most people are completely ignorant to what is transpiring and the ramifications as applied to all parts of life. I'm not full of paranoia but the truth is right before our eyes.

    I find it beyond frightening when a guy is busted for releasing the new Hulk movie online and is sentenced to a longer jail term than a rapist/robber. That was a very powerful moment to me. It says everything about the type of power behind the DRM movement.

    I can see it getting to a point where the DRM is embedded in hardware and people who are anti-drm no longer upgrade because of this. The people who are ambivalent to all of this are in for a world of hurt once DRM starts to permeate through all parts of society and it's products.

    As said before our only hope for ridding ourselves of DRM and it's derivatives is to speak with your wallet. The sad thing is we are a minority. The majority has no clue. DRM, disposable DVD's, & game keys are only the beginning if we don't make a strong statement.

    I practice what I preach so I hope others do too.
  • Taggers can't resist a blank wall and hackers can't resist a DRM system.
    Let me guess the ways the Phantom PC will phall:
    1. Someone will hack the network protocol and find a way to stream those downloaded games to unprotected media.
    2. Someone will find a bug in part of the DRM (the loader, maybe) that allows code to be inserted into the stack and WHAM.
    3. Someone will make the inevitable mod chip and inevitably be sued.
    4. Someone will... heck this is getting boring.
    Did no-one learn a lesson from the 1980's? Guys, you CANNOT COPY PROTECT SOFTWARE!!! Jeez. It's like the movie where the bad guy says to the cop: "to stay alive, you have to have a good day, every day. If I (the crook) have just one good day, you're dead and I win."
    Aw, let the games begin!
  • Comment removed (Score:5, Insightful)

    by account_deleted ( 4530225 ) on Thursday July 10, 2003 @02:24PM (#6408656)
    Comment removed based on user account deletion
  • by hesiod ( 111176 ) on Thursday July 10, 2003 @02:28PM (#6408685)
    (note: this is a lot of rambling & ranting, it won't necessarily all make sense to you.)

    They don't seem too keen on people actually using their site. When I tried to get to it, it told me I don't have Flash 6 (which I do, unfortunately), and then I clicked "Continue" to go on anyway it came back to tell me again that I don't have Flash. Fucking brilliant. So I decided to see if I could find something else, just for the heck of it. (after this, too, for some reason, the rest of the site worked) I went to /images/ and got this:

    > YOU ARE NOT AUTHORIZED!
    > AND WILL BE REPORTED TO THE PROPER AUTHORITIES!
    > Your are attempting to illegally login into a secure server and may be breaking the electronic wire fraud laws.
    > We monitor all login attempts and report any violations to the FBI we find suspicious.
    > We will not tolerate any hacker attempts to this server.
    > We record your IP address and originating domain and much more information to track you down. We use advanced intrusion detection software that reports to our security department in real-time and will allow them to see any intrusion attempts.
    > Please be advised that we take this very seriously! We will take the full course of action in any occurrence!
    > To report anything contact:
    > security@infiniumlabs.com

    I am not authorized? Authorized for what!? And they're going to report me to the authorities for going to the wrong page. Yeah, funny. And I like how they assume I am breaking into their server. Not to mention they'll have a pretty damned hard time trying to track me down. And of course, Going to an images directory = Advanced Cracking techniques, woo. So now I will be at the mercy of these people taking their full course of action against me (which is? Absolutely fucking nothing). *COWER*

    That page is so silly that it makes me wonder if one or both of the following 2 are true:
    1) Their webmaster is an idiot
    2) This is a hoax/vaporware (there's probably a good reason it's called a phantom)

    The article claims it isn't vaporware, but they give no reason to actually believe that, or why they say that.
    The company currently doesn't seem to sell anything other than hats, mugs, and shirts.
    The beta-testing application is pretty badly designed, especially compared to the rest of the site, but I guess that's not really a reason to doubt the existence of its product. Speaking of which, Why the HELL would they want my resume? WTF does that matter? After trying to sign up JFTFOI, the Sign Up button did nothing. Great.

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