Playing Video Games Makes For Better Surgeons 201
Steve Wallach writes "ABC News on line is reporting that surgeons that play video games at least three hours a week make 37% fewer mistakes in laparoscopic surgery and complete the surgery 27% faster than their non-video game playing colleagues. '"I use the same hand-eye coordination to play video games as I use for surgery," said Dr. James "Butch" Rosser, 49, who demonstrated the results of his study Tuesday at Beth Israel Medical Center.'"
Somehow (Score:4, Funny)
Re:Somehow (Score:2)
Having good hand eye coordination is critical to being a great pilot.
Re:Somehow (Score:4, Informative)
Besides, the computer does most of the aiming these days anyway.
Re:Somehow (Score:2)
No but I wonder if this could have some sort of application in the world of malpractice insurance. Obviously since it seems to be pretty good research, there is a positive correlation, maybe insurance companies would be willing to lower insurance on people who play regularly. But it may also depend on the game and it's hard to i
Yes but... (Score:3, Funny)
Re:Yes but... (Score:2, Funny)
Re:Yes but... (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Yes but... (Score:4, Informative)
The bone saws are amazingly powerful [frets.com] and kinda chainsaw like.
Even cooler are the body suits that the orthopedic docs where to keep from getting themselves infected from all the flying debri.
The space suits (Score:5, Informative)
They are most often worn during total joint replacements... if that artificial joint gets infected and colonized with bacteria (one of the most-feared complications of orthopedic surgery), it cannot be sterilized with antibiotics... it must be taken out in a second operation.
Orthopedic surgery redo's are a difficult surgical challenge, particularly in the setting of infection. The space suits are for the patients, not the surgeons.
Re:Yes but... (Score:3, Funny)
What you need to do is find a surgeon who can beat Hitman II [hitman2.com] using only the scalpel (a real weapon in the game).
Of course it might get annoying that they keep sneaking up on you from behind......
Re:Yes but... (Score:4, Funny)
Check.
Tweezers.
Check.
Quad Damage.
Check.
????!?!?!?!?!
Re:Yes but... (Score:2)
Yeah, let's hope the wonderful Doctors don't get Quake flashbasks and end up gibbing their patient instead of performing surgery.
Next thing you know, they'll walk into the OR and mutter under their breath, "It's time to kick ass and chew bubble-gum..."
Re:Yes but... (Score:2)
"...and I'm all out of ass." *Chews gum*
Re:Yes but... (Score:3, Funny)
You laugh (Score:5, Informative)
Some of those surgeons singlehandedly did hundreds of amputations in a single day... and it wasn't exactly a gentle procedure. Four or five burly lads held you down, while the surgeon used a knife to quickly divide the soft tissues around the bone, and a bone saw to complete the amputation. A bit of cautery, and the next patient was brought forward...
Seems brutal by today's standards, but that's how lives were saved... a soldier with a gangrenous limb almost always died... a soldier with an amputation before infection could set in had a chance of survival. Remember that this was long before antibiotics were available.
Do a Google search for Jacques Lisfranc: to this day, some foot injuries are still named after him. Dominique-Jean Larrey is another name you might try.
Re:Yes but... (Score:5, Funny)
> and running over of hookers from GTA?
You obviously don't live in New York.
John.
Probably cuts down on queasiness as well. (Score:2, Interesting)
Enough Doom or Unreal will fix that problem for you.
Re:Probably cuts down on queasiness as well. (Score:5, Insightful)
They get desensitized to that because they are surgeons; the games don't count for shit.
Re:Probably cuts down on queasiness as well. (Score:2)
I wasn't bothered by gunfire (although I got jumpy and tried to get behind cover whenever I heard a shot that one of us didn't fire), but the problems started when it came time to clean the deer we got - and cutting open a dead deer has got to look something lik
Re:Probably cuts down on queasiness as well. (Score:2)
--Grammar Nazi
Certificates on the Wall (Score:2, Funny)
No. But... (Score:5, Interesting)
Some surgeons, particularly plastic surgeons, are practically professional photographers... I've often had them come into the ER to sew faces of drunk drivers and bar-fight participants back together. The first thing they do is take a bunch of pictures. The reason why is pretty simple: A before/after picture comparison can be a real case-breaker for a plaintiff's attorney. Even with the most-expert plastic surgeon working on you, almost every wound scars to one degree or another... the before/after pics really put it into perspective for a jury.
A picture is truly worth a thousand words.
The pictures are for several reasons (Score:2)
First off, there are lots of legal requirements that have nothing to do with civil malpractice lawsuits -- laws that require reporting of and documentation for cases of domestic violence, for example. There'll be similar laws that apply to your bar fights and drunk driving cases, I bet. If someone gets hit by a drunk driver,
a couple of things: (Score:3, Interesting)
The reality is this: when a plastic surgeon takes care of an ER patient, it's often uncompensated, and the surgeon typically never sees that patient again after they are healed. Also, some of the antisocial types that end up needing that kind of surgical assistance can be quite litigious. If that patie
Re:Certificates on the Wall (Score:3, Interesting)
I'm just waiting to see how long it takes before clan tags start making it onto nameplates for their offices....
-={4M2}=- DethTherahpy, MD
|OsteoClan|SawBonez
+WheresThatSponge
Surgeons Playing Videogames (Score:2, Funny)
Downsides... (Score:5, Funny)
Game playing doctors did however show a 25% increase in car-jacking, 14% increase in shooting incidents and 23% increase in slashing peoples throats with a knife.
They also had 46% fewer complaints than other doctors but this could be attributed to other factors. One patient saying...
"Would you complain to a guy who claims he is a crack shot with a railgun ?"
Of course it does (Score:2, Funny)
Buying my surgeon a PS2 (Score:2, Funny)
At the surgery day ... (Score:5, Funny)
Doctor: "Ohhh yeah
Patient: "Oh god..."
Re:At the surgery day ... (Score:2)
Also, my mother is a huge fan of Reader's Digest. Sometime ago when I was in my early teens, she read an article along the same lines as this: that the muscles used in gripping a Nintendo controller and pushing the buttons are the same muscles being used by surgeons d
Cheat Codes for Surgery (Score:5, Funny)
HAWKEYE PIERCE - Invincibility (on/off)
FLY - Float around (invoked by taking nitrous)
NOTARGET - Nurses don't see you (on/off)
KEVORKIAN - Cut your losses and move to the next patient
NOCLIP - Don't shave patient before incision
STELSEWHERE - Teleport to other hospital
GIVE S # - Gives you # retractors
GIVE N # - Gives you # nails
WALLETDRAIN - Remove contents of patient's bank account to pay for operation
IMPULSE 9 - Gives all knives and tools
Re:Cheat Codes for Surgery (Score:2)
Stubble is a bitch.
Hooptie
Looks like... (Score:2)
New signatures? (Score:5, Funny)
It's been done. (Score:2)
He's an OB/GYN from New York who actually carved his initials into a woman's abdomen with a scalpel after doing her C-section.
I wish I'd been on the disciplinary board for that one... I'd have had his license for breakfast.
Re:It's been done. (Score:2)
Dr Butch? (Score:2, Funny)
coming soon to the med. office near you... (Score:2, Funny)
This will certainly change TV... (Score:5, Funny)
Frightened parent: Doctor? Our son... how is he?
Clooney: As you know, your son was hurt very badly in the accident. He lost a lot of blood and there was severe damage to his heart.
Frightened parent: Give it to me straight, doctor. How is he!
Clooney: PWNED!
---------
Tune in next week to see Dr. Clooney attempt to save Tess Trueheart's life when her heart stops.
Clooney: Charging to 500, ready... UUDDRLRLBABA!
attention span ? (Score:5, Interesting)
Wonder if this is related, but it might be that surgeons need practice at maintaining attention on something; like everyone else.
The more practice you get concentrating intensely on hand-eye coordination based activities, the better you get. Hey, I should know. I started out sucking rocks at Quake and ALL FPS, but kept on playing and and getting fragged and managed to figure out how to hold my own, just barely.
Just that since there aren't so many surgical procedures to practice on, playing games are a means of tuning the hand eye coordination. A friend of mine plays a lot of squash for the same reason (although he's pretty careful of his fingers and wrists)
Re:attention span ? (Score:2)
I think hand-eye coordination is definitely an important part, but also conditioning your brain to intuitively perceptualize the 3d-on-2d screen accurately is one aspect that is overlooked.
It helps that the keyboard layouts are mo
Games as a warm-up? (Score:2)
From the article:
Rosser has developed a course called Top Gun, in which surgical trainees warm up their coordination, agility and accuracy with a video game before entering the operating room.
What if the doc plays poorly? Is he going to be agitated when he walks into the OR?
The doc in the interview was playing Super Happy Monkey Ball Fun Mr. Sparkle Game, but I can see some folks leaning toward FPSs.
Hand Eye (Score:2, Funny)
In other news ... (Score:3, Funny)
No doubt (Score:5, Insightful)
Being a nonsurgeon physician myself, I honestly don't think that most surgeons have a problem with the actual hand-eye part of the surgery.
Most surgeons that I see getting in trouble are surgeons that do procedures that are not really needed... or surgeons that do procedures for which they they are not adequately trained.
Anyway, give me a study that shows that surgeons who play video games have a lower mortality rate during surgery and I'll be impressed.
Until then, it'll just be something else that I kid my surgeon clan members in socomII about.
(Sorry for the typos, but I am typing madly between patient visits.)
Davak
Re:No doubt (Score:5, Funny)
> have a lower mortality rate during surgery and I'll be impressed.
That would be a tough statistic to measure, as I suspect it is extremely uncommon for a surgeon to die while operating on a patient. You would need hundreds of years of clinical data collect enough data to be able to measure this.
Lucky (Score:2)
Now, I do have some of my ancillary staff that indulge in a bit of counterstrike...
Speaking for surgeons (Score:2)
To me it's a no-brainer, people who practise at stuff tend to be more familar and dextrous at do
excellent (Score:2)
I see you've already met Davak... he's an internist. I'm an ER doc myself.
I'll be sure to call you for my next arthroscopy.
Re:No doubt (Score:2)
This is a correlative study, not a causal one. What I don't think surprising is that the same doctors who are into vid games are into laparoscopic surgery. I suspect that these docs get more practice at each, separately.
(IANAP, but my father was a general surgeon who was one of the first-adopters of laparoscopy in his region. He also enjoyed vid games, and was one of the first adopters in the neighborhood of the Odyssey and Intellivision.)
Like a Surgeon (Score:5, Funny)
Somehow I made it through
Don't know how I did it
Broke a joystick or two
I was last in my class
Barely passsed at the institute
Now I'm trying to avoid, yah I'm trying to avoid
A malpractise suit
Hey, like a surgeon
Cuttin' for the very first time
Like a surgeon
Trained by playing DOOM, while online
Like a surgeon, hey
Cuttin' for the very first time
Like a surgeon
Here's a waiver for you to sign
Woe, woe, woe
Sorry (Score:2)
Re:Sorry (Score:2)
Extra lives (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Extra lives (Score:2)
I guess it would be fair to say... (Score:2)
Ah! Bad puns! Sometimes, I just kill myself. And if I had the patients to play more games, I would.
P.S. Random offtopic bit: I'm actually a Med student on a surgical team at Dunedin Public Hospital in NZ. A couple of weeks back I saw some guys browsing Slashdot from the computers in the main operating theatre complex. So you never know who'll be reading this...
Ha! I was right all along! (Score:5, Funny)
Now, at long last, I am proven correct.
Re:Ha! I was right all along! (Score:2)
Better yet... (Score:2)
Land Shark Gun (Score:2)
Doctor: "Gonzo Gates likes to work off steam firing the land shark gun [mercurynews.com] down the hospital hallways. Keeps him from hitting the bottle again.
Some of the Games They Play (Score:3, Funny)
Super Mario Gallbladder Removal
Sonic The Foreign Object
Sim HMO
Unreal Tournament - Mega Colostomy
Tomb Raider X - Laura Croft Gets Endometriosis
Myst - Secret of the Waiting Room
Re: (Score:2)
Potential for accelerated learning? (Score:2, Insightful)
Think about how booooring it can be to acquire knowledge that's actually cool. Then think about how much FUN it can be to play a computer game that's actually boring.
Man, if we could design games that are both fun and will teach you a useful skill we could really break those learning curves...
Cause and effect (Score:3, Insightful)
Who funded this nonsense?
insightful? try non sequitur (Score:2)
However, you're on the right track: it's possible that a third intervening variable is causing both of these (e.g., smart people both enjoy video games and are better at surgery).
Yet the fact remains that a correlation was shown, and therefore a doctor that plays video games, all other things being equal, is less likely to make mistakes than a non-gamer.
Re:insightful? try non sequitur (Score:2)
I know that, Cleetus. I was suggesting there could be an alternate explanation for the correlation, and that the correlation in and of itself is maeningless. It's like to archtype case of shoe size versus reading ability. They correlate, but only because as kids age, they generally read better and their feet grow.
However, you're on the right track: it's possible th
Now I hope these surgeons do understand (Score:2, Funny)
"Heh heh... he thinks he made it through the surgery but wait'll he comes across the tripmine I left in his wheelchair!!!"
Great (Score:3, Funny)
"What's he up to, Nancy? Oh. Wow!"
"Oh, I'm so proud, Hubert. He's sure to grow up to be a world-famous brain surgeon."
*************
or "I *would* be doing my homework, Ma, but I'm busy preparing for a career in the medical sciences!"
Pac-Man Sound effects during Operations (Score:2, Funny)
Alternatively... (Score:5, Funny)
[everyone is still sitting in shocked silence -- nobody rises to the occasion]
"Well, anyone with exceptional hand-eye coordination...how about a video game player, then? Surely *someone* among you must have stomped on a few walking mushrooms in your time!"
Videogame-playing Cops (Score:2)
I'm pretty good at lightgun games, but I've never shot a real gun, so I'm wondering...
It's true (Score:3, Informative)
Anyway, my point is, that the methods we used for the visualization isn't that far away from what is used in modern game development. We also aimed to show as many polygons as possible, animated and shaded, on the screen at once, like modern 3D games.
The model wasn't that complex, so our home made engine had no problem viewing it in real time, but I see no problem in using a game engine such as Quakes to visualize medical data.
Another study: what does it mean? (Score:4, Insightful)
It's kind of a slide-show study report, so it's hard to get at all the details. But, there's room for skepticism...
Residents outweigh attending physicians 2-to-1 in this study. Wouldn't residents be more likely to be younger? Aren't younger people much more likely to have significant video game experience? I can find no place in the report that shows they controlled for age. Might the study simply be showing that "younger people have better eye-hand coordination than older people?"
Aren't most new kinds of video games and equipment (I would suppose, including laparoscopic equipment) built by young people with young eyes? Don't most older (>45) people develop farsightedness? Might the study merely be showing that "laparoscopic equipment needs to be improved for surgeons who have older eyes"?
In "Methods and Materials", I saw a quote that made me think "skill" was partially calculated by how fast the operation was performed. Might not residents who have only performed 2 actual surgeries be more likely to risk going faster, unlike experienced physicians who, with many more actual surgeries under their belt, might be more inclined towards caution? Do I really want the speed demon operating on me, or the guy who goes "slow and steady"?
Don't many video games essentially teach "it's better to be fast than right, better to keep moving than stop and think"? Is that the mindset I want in a surgeon?
It was hard to determine whether the simulator being used was closer to a video game or closer to real surgery. Might the study merely be showing that "people who are better at video games are better at surgery video games"?
This study, or at least this description of it, failed to convince me that I want a Doogie Doctor doing my next surgery. I think I'll go with the guy who has had a couple hundred successful operations over the guy who smoked him on Mortal Kombat.
37% fewer mistakes? (Score:2)
Remember, someone, somewhere, today, has an appointment with the doctor who graduated last in his class...
Fire down below! (Score:2)
THAT explains it!!! (Score:2)
FRAG MONKEY!
Comment removed (Score:4, Funny)
Re: (Score:2)
Surgeon on the Commodore Amiga (Score:2)
In other news... (Score:3, Funny)
They've been doing this for years... (Score:2)
Fark (Score:2)
Immersion Haptics (Score:2)
For an example of how medicine and video games intersect, check out Immersion Corporation [immersion.com] for a run down of modern 3D haptics (input for computer systems other than keyboards and mice). Their medical products [immersion.com] page gives a nice overview of modern haptic devices and applications, including end
Combine the two (Score:2)
invisible hand? (Score:2)
gaming as a writeoff (Score:2)
now i can charge my gaming needs off as a professional expense. i'll make sure the hospital has consoles in the surgeons lounge so that i can "warm up" before starting surgery.
i do agree that having grown up with computer games can help your laparoscopic skills. or it could be that gamers tend to gravitate towards the surgical field, while non-gamers end up as internists.
I just wanna know... (Score:2)
Or how about this: "Ladies and Gentlemen of the jury, sure, the defendant says he plays Counterstrike four hours per week to hone his surgicial skills and he claims that's enough. But I submit to you that a lying, cheating wallhack such as the defendant isn't going to gain ANY skills that help make him a better surgeon, or a better counter-terrorist.
laparoscopic surgery == video games (Score:5, Insightful)
It's no surprise that video games (controlling things happening on a screen) is good practice for laparoscopic surgery (controlling things happening on a screen).
Did you even read the article? Ohhhhhh, sorry-- forgot where I was for a minute.
you're close (Score:5, Informative)
Laparoscopic surgery is done with instruments, but they are not usually "remote controlled." You may be confusing this procedure with remote-controlled robotic surgery.
The procedure goes like this:
Patient is put under anesthesia, and the surgeon chooses his port sites based on the procedure to be performed (gallbladder, etc). Once the patient is out, their belly is insuflated with carbon dioxide (gives the surgeon more room to work). There is a camera involved, but the surgeon actually uses long instruments that fit through the trochars he placed through the 2 or 3 holes he made in the abdominal wall. The instruments are simply long... they are not remote controlled.
If you've got the choice, Lap-surgery is preferable to a conventional "open" case... the recovery time is much less. If you've ever had surgery, you know how much it hurts to have your abdomen opened... little things like coughing hurt for weeks. That said, some things require speed, exposure, room to work, and are safer if done open... your complicated aortic aneurysm repair is better done open.
BTW, the surgeon will usually reserve the right to convert the procedure to an "open" case... if you have a heavily calicified gallbladder (a so-called "porcelian gallbladder") he may have to cut you open just to get it out... only so much fits through those little trochars.
Just FYI
Re:you're close (Score:2)
Yes, but there's still a long distance between the surgeon's hands and the ends of the instruments (compared to normal instruments which, as you know, are much shorter), and the instruments all pass through a trochar which alters their maneuverability substantially (compared to normal instruments in an open case), but the biggest difference is that you no longer have direct visual feedback -- you rely upon the weir
It's different (Score:2)
The current standard of care for many common surgeries is to do lap-scope unless you've got a compelling reason to do otherwise. Residents learn by imitation, and are trained by their attendings, so when their attendings are largely doing laparoscopic surgery, the residents will too.
As for longer instruments, it's all a matter of practice. The bronchoscope is an example that's more familiar to me... I use them du
So, what is your score (Score:2)
And have you ever wished for a "wall hack" while working?
(Actually, given some of the medical diagnostic tools being worked on which present the patient's data on a HUD, we are rapidly approaching the day when a wall hack WILL be available for doctors...)
heh (Score:2)
Yes, I'd love a wallhack in my ER... one that would allow me to keep track of the restless hordes in my waiting room without having to walk out there and endure the accusing "why-the-hell-aren't-you-working-faster?" stares from all the people with non-emergent complaints.
That and a nice area-of-effect weapon for when the obligatory miscellaneous drunk guy and his buddies decide to brawl in the department...
LTNS (Score:2, Interesting)
The "Wall hack" I was thinking of was something along th
hmmm (Score:2)
Neuropathy can certainly be compressive (or diabetic, or drug-induced... there's a bunch of other possibilities). Are they sure that's why you have it? Hyperextending your elbow in your sleep is a bit odd... the most-common sleep posture is a flexor o
yes (Score:2)
Re:laparoscopic surgery == video games (Score:2)
Man, talk about irony-- being accused of not being able to take a joke right after making a sarcastic slashdot joke. Seriously. That's like, deep, and stuff.
Ah well, all in good fun.
Re:too late! (Score:2)
Yes, but it's a negative one :)
Re:Stop playing with your joystick... (Score:2)
I need some pads he...AAAAUUUUUGGGGGHHH! LOOK OUT! Wait. Dammit, get that laser pointer *out* of here, Nurse Simmons!