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System Shock 2 Retrospect...and Possible Followup?
Posted by
Cliff
on Fri Oct 08, 2004 01:10 AM
from the revel-in-the-speculation dept.
from the revel-in-the-speculation dept.
Starsmore writes: "Gamespot has a retrospective on the 1999 cult classic System Shock 2, which normally isn't that big of a deal on it's own, although it's a nice read for those interested in some of the stories behind the production of System Shock 2. The biggest draw is that tucked at the end of the article (and shown below for those that don't want to RTFA), is this: 'But why even look back at System Shock 2 at this point? Because Irrational has been, and it plans to make a related announcement this Friday (tomorrow). The studio has decided that it wishes to further what it started in System Shock 2--to work on games that promote "emergent" gameplay--open-ended exploration that offers many choices and combinations of options to players. You'll see what we mean tomorrow. Be sure to come back then.' " Could this possibly mean a sequel to the System Shock franchise? Update: 10/09 22:30 EDT by C : As many of you suspected, Irrational is in the process of developing BioShock , a "spiritual successor" to the System Shock games. Here's hoping they can distill much of what made games like System Shock and Thief so successful, yet succeed at their aim of building a game with truly emergent gameplay.
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The Making of System Shock 2 97 comments
The British gaming magazine Edge, which has teamed up with the website Next Generation, offers up a piece looking back at the creation of System Shock 2 . The cult classic storytelling horror-themed FPS has survived as a popular and often-referenced game despite the eight years between now and its release. The piece covers the reasons behind that popularity, as well as the 'horror' of an inexperienced team taking on a dauntingly high-profile task: "The original System Shock was one of the games that made Levine want to move into the videogame industry in the first place. What made it so special? 'The feeling of being in a real place,' he raves. 'The feeling of a mystery, of unraveling it - not in an adventure game way, but in the context of an action game. You arrive and... what happened? That's a really good storytelling mechanism.' Austin Grossman and Doug Church's original idea from Shock was something Irrational expanded in its sequel. 'In Shock 1 you were a specific guy, you had a backstory,' Levine notes. 'With Shock 2, I started you out with the classic 'wake up with amnesia'.'"
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Obvious answer (Score:5, Funny)
Wait until tomorrow and you will find out.
Re:Obvious answer (Score:2, Insightful)
I'll play TV while I wait it seems...
Agreed, should be more open-ended games (Score:5, Insightful)
There's a few out there if you look hard enough (Morrowind, for example), but most single player games just aren't very deep these days. Of course, to make a really open-ended game requires a LOT more testing, driving up the budget and especially the time to develop the game - and modern games already take a long time to develop. Most developers feel the extra effort isn't worth it in most cases, unfortunately.
Best single player game in existence... (Score:5, Insightful)
Emergent gameplay: Check
Open Ended Exploration: Check
Many combinations of options: Check
Good plot (Espescially considering current world trends): Check
All it needs now is a graphics/ai overhaul and it will be perfect (Someone want to start a doom3 total conversion?)
Parent
Re:Best single player game in existence... (Score:5, Insightful)
Parent
Re:Best single player game in existence... (Score:5, Insightful)
Not to mention that the main character is bland (possibly partially a result of them designing the story around the main character being either male or female), the story is flat without depth in the characters, there's only one real twist to the story and it's not exactly that shocking, the "universal ammunition" system is garbage, character development was heavily dumbed down from the first game (in the first game, you had to carefully choose your development choices to optimize according to your play type, and you could never fully max out every stat. In DX:IW, you could max out every stat before the middle of the game, and if you didn't like your choices you could easily swap no less than three of them out and re-max them), character models look hideous and the overall interface was too far streamlined down to accomidate the X-Box, destroying much of what made Deus Ex fun in the first place.
Parent
Re:Best single player game in existence... (Score:3, Insightful)
All and all it was just an extremely dissapointing game. Part o
Re:Best single player game in existence... (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Best single player game in existence... (Score:3, Insightful)
I played a significant portion of the first game without firing a shot - although I wasn't exactly a pacifist.
It's all thanks to that gloriously deadly glowing blue sword thing I 'borrowed' in Hong Kong. Utterly brilliant for ambushes, and works against even the nastiest of foes. I'm hiding in a shadow, they walk p
Re:Best single player game in existence... (Score:3, Informative)
Of course, if you do kill him, you're told that it's too late because the WTO already has the weapon plans, so even when
Reading the article for hidden meaning? (Score:5, Funny)
Additional speculation (Score:4, Interesting)
Hope there is a sequel (Score:3, Insightful)
If they announce a sequel I'll be a happy man indeed.
Wouldn't mind a remake... (Score:2)
Besides, technology has moved on. Now, imagine the Doom 3 engine used to run the System Shock 2 game. Wouldn't that be yummy?
Re:Hope there is a sequel (Score:3, Funny)
Then i HAD to stop. Looked in every room in the house to make sure nothings there.
Re:Hope there is a sequel (Score:4, Funny)
Parent
I sure hope there's another... (Score:5, Interesting)
If only Clive and the System Shock crew could get together, I'd be afraid to turn lights off for the rest of my life.
Re:I sure hope there's another... (Score:5, Insightful)
I didn't play SS2 when it first come out. I tried the original SS looking for a Doom-clone and it didn't satisfy me, so i never bothered to look into the sequel. Besides it didn't ran that well on my computer back then.
Years later, with much better hardware i stumbled into a site that praised SS2 from top to bottom as the most underrated game ever. For some reason it stuck on me, and some days later i had a discussion with a friend who unconditionally loves the game, so i decided to give it a shot. When i found it on a bargain bin it went home with me.
A week later, i was so hooked my studies suffered. The game is, to this day, still the most atmospheric game i've played, and it sucked me in completely. It's tensefull, and creepy, and the "damn-that-made-me-jump-off-my-seat" moments just keep coming one after another (damn monkeys!). Doom 3 captured much of that atmosphere - and borrowed quite a lot from SS2, in fact; but the game itself wasn't anyware as good. Doom 3 is a shooter with a few jumpy moments, SS2 it's a suspense horror movie translated to the PC.
I enjoyed it inmensly. Graphics are dated, (through functional) but the gameplay are story are excellent and the sound, even by today standarts, is top notch - so much, playing it with headphones it's a must. By all means, if you're reading this and haven't tried it, do so.
Anyway, SS2, through it didn't sell well back when released it's to this day one of the most cherished games of all time. Unless they manage to fuck it up completely, System Shock 3 would sell like hot bread. I know i'm not the only one that would buy it in a heartbeat. Damn, i would even buy the original SS2 if they ported it to the Doom 3 engine. Twice.
Parent
cooperative play (Score:5, Funny)
Parent
Re:I sure hope there's another... (Score:5, Informative)
They have. The folks over at http://sshock2.com [sshock2.com] keep up to date on all the information. One of the upgrades is an increase in detail to the models of the AI figures. It's called Rebirth [wanadoo.fr]. I love it, it really gives an upgrade to the "ghosts" you see in the game who have pointy hands (anyone who's played SS2 knows what I'm talking about).
On the heels of Rebirth came the hi-res texture mod called SHTUP [ttlg.com] (pronounced shtoop).
There was also an upgrade to the cutscenes in the game, by a group called Wuggles Unlimited, but they seem to have disappeared (lack of hosting).
Look around, there are still fans of SS2 doing work with it!
Parent
Re:I sure hope there's another... (Score:2)
Undying is easily my favorite single player game, and scared me quite well (Resident Evil series never caught me.) It can be picked up for $10 in a two pack with American McGee's Alice (mediocre... great atmosphere and characters, too many stupid jumping puzzles and annoying bosses).
Agreed with both you guys... (Score:2)
Don't forget Thief (Score:3, Interesting)
I like open ended gameplay (Score:4, Interesting)
Re:I like open ended gameplay (Score:2)
Hehe. UT 2004 drives me nuts with that. It has these huge outdoor maps, and when you fly to the edge of the map *ThUnk* you hit an invisible wall. Uhh thanks guys. I really wish they had done something like had the computer automatically turn the s
Re:I like open ended gameplay (Score:2)
Does EA own the License to System Shock still? (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:Does EA own the License to System Shock still? (Score:5, Informative)
Parent
Re:Does EA own the License to System Shock still? (Score:3, Funny)
Now *that's* really _open_ ended.
Re:Does EA own the License to System Shock still? (Score:3, Interesting)
I enjoyed SS2 as much as every person who was lucky enough to give it a try, but after being alone on a haunted starship/base battling zombie monsters and malfunctioning security systems in SS2, Halo, Doom3, etc. I've had enough.
System Shock's style -- FINE. GREAT. Do something new with it! (it's not as if
Oh, this would be great. (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Oh, this would be great. (Score:5, Interesting)
In System Shock 2 it took a long time before the crew was even aware of any problem, and once they were they had enough time to organize resistance (unlike Doom 3 where the entire thing is over in a few minutes, basically the time it takes you to walk from the comm. center to marine HQ). As a result you find many, varied logs, some from before the problems start, some from people getting suspicious, and some from those who actively fight back.
While it is rather hard to actually identify crew members in SS2, I often found myself wondering if the mutilated corpse in front of me was in fact that of one of the people who's logs I had been reading. The notion that I could still hear their voices while they were no longer around to speak added a poignant touch to the game.
Parent
Kick ass game (Score:4, Interesting)
Re:Kick ass game (Score:2)
You'd think he would have gotten up the first time he shit his pants. This guy's not like the other children, class.
Please not DX:IW (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Please not DX:IW (Score:5, Interesting)
I think the current world political situation alsoinfluenced the game in a negative way. Look at it this way, if they released a game with a plot like the original now, they'd probably all be 'detained' indefinately. The second game completely lost the feel of the first even if you can look past the xbox crippled engine/design.
I imagine the current political situation is also why the movie project also got the axe. Nobody wants to be labeled a terrorist/antiamerican/nonrepublican anymore.
Parent
Wow (Score:3, Interesting)
The Many (Score:3, Funny)
The Many sings to us. Where is the love in your cold world of machines?
Quit your job. Join the many. Embrace the world of flesh.
...Ok, that was either an ad for porn or a sign that my job is in danger. Fucked either way.
Could it? (Score:5, Insightful)
Could this possibly be another example of Slashdot's new habit of trolling for comments by adding rethorical questions?
Demo with no guns... not *that* hard. (Score:3, Funny)
Well actually that doesn't sound very hard to me, given how much time I spent with a crowbar in that game and about two bullets left...
I did love it though, and hope they are working out a sequel!
Real announcement... (Score:5, Funny)
I'm waiting for a company to try and do something like that.
Misclassifying Shock 2? (Score:4, Interesting)
Emergent gameplay is defined as when rather than actions being scripted, the level of interaction with the environment is sufficient to allow the player options. Rather than "grab key, use on door", the player can also pick the lock, find a bomb, or find an alternate route around the door (DX, LaGaurdia Airport, using the metal crates to climb up to the window of the building leading to the hanger). These sorts of games require multiple parallel systems that usually aren't too complex, but annoying to get synced up. The "alternate route" option requires more complex level geometry, etc. If you're dealing with a globally emergent system, rather than a local one, you suddenly need to be able to track all the details going on, such as how many churches you have, and where there's more high res space.
Open ended gameplay is a lot easier, but frequently less useful. Why have a game if all you do is run back and forth killing stuff (FF* ignoring the full motion story, BBS door games where nobody else joins in, Diablo 2) and your level increases ad nauseum? Players only navel gaze so long, even though the EverCrack and Diablo 2 addicts are threatening to prove me wrong.
Morrowind is an example of a game with both emergence and open-ended gameplay gone horribly wrong, as others have mentioned. You can run around all you want, but you can seriously break the storyline if you wander too far, collect items within the Fence, or exterminate entire towns. It's also far too easy to wander off, get lost, and even get bored of the game. The alchemy system is a nice example of emergence, but is so broken to be insane. The enchanting and spellmaking systems, while fun, aren't all that balanced and even your strongest custom spells will look like wet firecrackers against God's Fire. Because of the massive cost of constant effects, you'll also never really keep your enchanted items after the first half of the game because they just can't cut it. The apalling weakness of scrolls is also degrading.
Deus Ex is an example of emergent gameplay and level design coming together to make a wonderful experience. Take Hell's Kitchen, the first time around, where you have at least 30 distinct ways to learn about the warehouse, approach and enter, destroy the generator, and exit to the helicopter. Your 'ware choices seriously affect how you play your character (even if skills make less difference, since there are fewer "real" choices), along with what sort of toys you drag along. The lack of scripting in many places actually improves the game, making it possible to walk out of many areas without ever engaging the enemy.
(flamebait) As for open-ended gameplay done right, we'll have to look at Tetris.
(/flamebait)
If not Tetris, then Fallout 2. You can plot your course almost however you choose - doing a line drive to San Fran to snag the power armor early, go through The Den and either become a slaver or get a five-fingered discount on equipment, become a boxer, wander around the wastes... the game is as open as you want it to be and lets you go whereever you want. The variations are too many to outline, but anyone that's treked past Klamath, through New Redding, and visited NCR knows just how loosely your path is written.
System Shock 2 had very little in these departments. The ability to hack or psi your way towards better gear was nice, but optional, and not terribly emergent -- it granted options, not other ways around. The "open ended" nature more meant farming monsters with a wrench (or energy weapon if the weapon degradation was low enough) -- no new ways around or reasons to hang around. Extra level space does not open endedness or emergence make.
As much as I respect Shock 2, I really feel that Shock 1 was superior for the gameplay, even if I am biased to the Skorpion. Both games have an awesome atmosphere, and were very well crafted. But the limits they pushed were with the story and the technology, not the gameplay.
Re:Misclassifying Shock 2? (Score:3, Insightful)
I was under the impression that "emergent" gameplay is what you get when the tools you have are sufficiently generic to allow solutions the designers never even considered. You make it sound like if you have three pre-designed solutions, that would be emergent gameplay, but I don't think that is the case.
A great example of emergent gameplay is
HOOOAH!!! (Score:4, Informative)
I was overjoyed when Thief 3 came out, especially after, quite sadly, Looking Glass closed their doors.
For those of you who have never played either the incredible Thief Series, or System Shock, you are in for a treat. Be aware that the graphics are sub-par, but the audio! Eric Brossius is FRIGHTENING. He is responsible for the audio in Both the Thief Series, and System Shock 2. They damn well better have him on board.
By the way, if you want better system shock 2 graphics, check into Rebirth:
http://perso.wanadoo.fr/etienne.aubert/sshock/s
Its a mod that makes for better graphics.
Re:HOOOAH!!! (Score:2)
While waiting, check out SS2 graphics update (Score:5, Informative)
Unfortunately, it has kind of died (latest update in 2003...), but the downloadable Beta 1 works fine.
Some quotes, links, and facts from SS2... Co-op? (Score:3, Interesting)
"Step right into my trap, little hacker!"
"Look at you hacker. A pathetic creature of meat and bone, panting and sweating as you run through my corridors. How can you challenge a perfect immortal machine?"
"Welcome, to my DEATH MACHINE, interloper!!"
The rest of cool quotes can be found here: http://www.ttlg.com/ss1/archive/voice.htm [ttlg.com]
http://www.sshock2.com/ [sshock2.com] is still an awesome Web site. Don't forget its forum.
I never did get to play co-operative play with SS2. I heard it is pretty cool. Did anyone play it?
i'll take a remake (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:PLEASE DO NOT BUTCHER IT (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:Excellent (Score:3, Funny)
I have chomping at the bit for a SS3 for many moons now.