Slashdot Log In
Ultimate RPG Gaming Table
Posted by
Zonk
on Tue Mar 15, 2005 07:31 PM
from the light-from-above dept.
from the light-from-above dept.
Nyrath the nearly wise writes "RPGs like Dungeons and Dragons are traditionally played on a tabletop using miniatures. The problem is that the players are only supposed to see those parts of the map that they have explored. Gamemasters are reduced to drawing explored sections of the map on the playing surface with dry-erase markers or using cardboard tiles representing stretches of corridor. Some fellows have an expensive but elegant solution. They map out the playing area in a laptop using software such as Tabletop Mapper, which allows to game master to dynamically hide and reveal sections of the map. The laptop is attached to a 1600 lumen DLP projector mounted on the ceiling and projecting an image of the visible map onto the tabletop. The miniatures can then be moved on a dynamic map. The eye candy factor is vastly increased, gamemaster labor is reduced, and the players have more fun. The elegance is that this is an intuitive enhancement of the traditional gaming experience, instead of an unfamiliar new user interface to be mastered."
This discussion has been archived.
No new comments can be posted.
The Fine Print: The following comments are owned by whoever posted them. We are not responsible for them in any way.
Table? (Score:5, Funny)
Floor... (Score:5, Funny)
"Your party has left the linoleum plains and come to an area of deep pile shag ..."
Parent
Re:Table? (Score:5, Funny)
We used to dream about playing on floor. We had to play on damp carpet on top of garbage heap.
Parent
sweet (Score:3, Funny)
Re:sweet (Score:5, Funny)
Parent
but what about... (Score:5, Insightful)
How about this... (Score:5, Interesting)
Voila! You've got a rear-projection system you can set things on.
If the grease is light enough, your gameboard will also be projected onto the ceiling.
Variations on a theme:
Parent
Re:How about this... (Score:4, Interesting)
What I want to know is why he has to have people look away to check stuff for himself. All he has to do is set the projector as a second screen instead of cloning the main screen (This is trivial to do on a laptop, which he seems to use). Do your editing on the main screen, which only the DM can see. Then just copy+paste onto the second screen. This way the DM can do his changes, and get them right, BEFORE he shows the players. No lowering opacity while players look away!
You could get more fancy too. Since this is a layered approach, he could only copy+paste the mask layer so that on his editing copy the mask layer can have 50% opacity, which he then copy+pastes to the display copy which has an opacity of 100% on the display layer.
Parent
Re:How about this... (Score:3, Informative)
Re:How about this... (Score:5, Informative)
I've been ripped off my Uber_geek moment!
The original poster is describing in my Coolest. Gaming Set-up. Evar. post on EnWorld - but the setup linked to in the post isn't mine - it's Jans Carton's projection page The projector shown in the pic is an 800 lumens LCD projector, not our 1600 ANSI DLP which is way smaller.
Anyways, we went through the projection surface debate with Alan Stalpes at DIY Projector last fall, and the best surface to use for rear projection is a piece of buffed Lexan.
But all of that is besides the point. You need a projector with a very wide angle lens to compensate for the decreased throw distance in a rear mount system. Problem is, the contrast of such an image without serious optics backing it up looks like crap.
And all of this is why? Due to shadows? Sorry. Overengineering for a problem that does not exist.
We use the over the table rig described in the initial story - and shadows are not a problem at all. I mean ZIP. NADA. NYET. No problem during game play at all.
A little less engineering - a little more experience with the tech guys.
Parent
Actually, front projection isn't so bad. (Score:5, Informative)
In fact, the shadowing can sometimes be an advantage since you can often see things projected on top of your hands, which would be blocked in the rear-projection case.
Parent
Re:but what about... (Score:5, Funny)
Parent
Re:but what about... (Score:5, Informative)
The trouble is that most projectors require a minmum distance of five feet between the lens and the screen. If the projector was on the floor, the tabletop would have to be five feet off the ground. And of course the closer the projector is to the tabletop, the smaller the image, which is the exact opposite of what you want.
I suppose one could have the projector in the tabletop, bouncing the beam off a mirror on the floor, but now things are getting complicated.
There are more details here [enworld.org] and here [dundjinni.com]
Parent
One last touch to add: (Score:5, Funny)
Chess != D&D (Score:5, Funny)
So how would you issue the commands?
Player: "Barbarian to goblin 7."
DM: "Checkmate! I mean, critical hit!"
d^_^b
Parent
A better way to do it? (Score:5, Insightful)
Immediate Impression (Score:5, Interesting)
1) Cost. The equipment and software necessary for this setup are beyond many gamers' means.
The software isn't so bad, if it's the mentioned dunjinni package @ ~$40, but that projector is the backbreaker. Even lores projectors are a chunk of change. I know, as I've looked at them for a variety of causes, but just can't muster the green, yet.
2) The task of scanning and editing printed maps is labor and skill intensive.
My hope is that you could help me and any others that wish to use this technique by publishing this letter or similar instructions and by making high-resolution maps, which do not contain DM-only information, available for download.
Ok, the map drawing/editing thingie doesn't strike me as bad, so long as you're a coder like me. I've already done a few simple applications which can paint hexes (so cartesian should be less difficult) any color and anywhere I like, I could even map brushes to create furniture or terrain. (the worst part would be shelling for the package I delveloped it in, which I have no intention of leaving it in, for what should be obvious reason.)
Back in the day, though, for RPG's we didn't even use maps, but had the DM describe where we were and what we were to see. Kept it simple, so long as you remembered.
Re:Immediate Impression (Score:3, Insightful)
Minor nitpick (Score:3, Insightful)
Other than that minor gripe, I totally envy this system. Pretty cool gaming room as well. Even with the overhead ductwork. Nice jorb!
Re:Immediate Impression (Score:5, Funny)
Vis-a-vis Markers (4 pack): $4.69
DLP Projector: $1,479.00
Leaving every game-geek on Slashdot with no better retort than "it-costs-too-much": priceless.
Parent
Re:Immediate Impression (Score:4, Informative)
Our gaming circle e-bayed our DLP projector off of ebay for just less than $600 USD. It worked out to $120 CDN per member of our group.
The D&D Core Rules cost $130. Keep it in perspective.
We use our projector *every single session*. That's more than can be said for 99% of the gaming books I own. Maybe your group is different...but I doubt it.
Too expensive? Nope. This is accessible and affordable technology. High power LEDs vy Luxeon promise to make this even cheaper in the next 3-5 years.
Show me a gamer without $130 worth of gaming stuff purchased over the course of several months and I'll show you a gamer with a mean wife.
Parent
Hmm (Score:5, Funny)
Do I still get to use... (Score:3, Funny)
Miniatures? (Score:5, Funny)
Imagination is a wonderful thing.
Re:Miniatures? (Score:5, Interesting)
But the summary is a little. . .
But seriously, in the one long term campaign I was involved with for several years, the GM used little generic game pieces (from a Sorry or Parchesi board game) while each of the players used their own figurine to represent their character. We really only used this for marching order and combat. Combat was actually not that common. We spent entire afternoons role playing, rather than roll playing, especially when we needed to gather information.
It helped a great deal that the GM was an actor, and acted out the parts of the NPCs and monsters believably. The interaction really was the best part.
To be honest, this campaign really spoiled me. I haven't been seriously into RPGs since, because they're always slightly disappointing and lackluster. Modules are boring, hack and slash gets boring quickly, leveling gets boring. Maybe I've been unlucky, and I've encountered only one truly imaginative GM in my life.
Parent
Urm.... (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:Urm.... (Score:4, Funny)
Everyone has their own table, and. .
This is the future! (I think I better patent this idea.)
Parent
Re:Urm.... (Score:5, Informative)
I use a Thnkpad and NWN. Running NWN's largest mod group doesn't hurt us on getting cool unreleaed tilesets for use with the projector either.
IF you link to the original article on ENWorld, you'll see the DLP shots using NWN.
There are more of them here:
http://www.dladventures.net/iB/index.php?showto
It's excellent as I can use the Toolset to whip up an encounter zone and detail it in 2 minutes. It would take me longer to use overhead pens and a battlemat.
Parent
Traditional? (Score:3, Informative)
"RPGs like Dungeons and Dragons are traditionally played on a tabletop using miniatures."
Look, the table is cool and so are miniatures, but "traditionally?"
First time I ever saw a miniature outside of Warhammer context was that HeroQuest boardgame. The first five or six years I roleplayed, it was pen and paper and books (hence "pen and paper RPGs" not "miniatures and paper RPGs"). And I'm pretty young--so careful how you throw around "traditionally" d^_^b.
Re:Traditional? (Score:5, Informative)
Look, the table is cool and so are miniatures, but "traditionally?"
Yes, traditionally. D&D started out as a modified set of minatures rules (Chainmail). Why do you thin that AD&D (1E) had all ranges and movements in inches whcih were later converted to feet (which differed if you were indoors or out)? Miniatures were for sell at just about every place that sold D&D stuff. TSR put out lots of minis although I prefered Ral Partha. Warhammer started out as a game to use the minis that GW made for D&D. Not everybody used them, and they weren't required, but the game was still based on the concept of usign minis.
Parent
Re:Traditional? (Score:3, Informative)
So, just because you are an inexperienced first level whelp doesn't mean that the use of "tradition" here has any less meaning.
P.S. I moved on to the Hero System long, long ago leaving D&D in the dust.
Computer Graphics? (Score:5, Funny)
Cool... so with the projector you also get realtime shadows!
And the DM can have the Dragon's shadow show up via hand puppet gestures!
Of course the Raging One Finger of Darnisus will probably be the most popular creature shadowed on the board.
Make Sure You Buy It Anonymously (Score:4, Funny)
Times have changed... (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Times have changed... (Score:5, Insightful)
Parent
Dungeon Crawls (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Dungeon Crawls (Score:5, Funny)
Not at all. In dungeon crawls, the "R" just stands for "Roll" instead of "Role".
Parent
Automated table-top gaming (Score:5, Insightful)
By contrast the best D&D that I played in, I admit to being a fairly mediocre DM, was in a group that played very fast loose with the rules, w/o miniatures, w/o maps. Just you, the DM and your imagination.
table...? Wha...? (Score:4, Funny)
LIGHTNING BOLT! LIGHTNING BOLT! LIGHTNING BOLT!
Hell no!! (Score:5, Funny)
Not Approved (Score:4, Funny)
Hidden Area (Score:3, Funny)
Expensive (Score:4, Informative)
I experimented (once) with putting the projector (a REALLY cheap/bad projector I found at college) under a plexiglass table top but the dice rolling on the table top was so loud it made playing unenjoyable.
However, someone gave me an idea on how to actually do this cheaply only not being an electrical engineer I never did it like they told me to. Maybe someone else would like to try it? The idea is to take a thick piece of cardboard (like that found in really sturdy corrigated boxes). Draw a grid onto the cardboard box or get one of those cheap plastic layers which already have a grid printed on them (but aren't so hard as to be like plexiglass). Depending on whether you draw or overlay the cardboard you go buy a bunch of those tiny leds for toy trains and such and put one in each of the squares (centered). Here is where the engineering comes in: You have to have all of those wires go back to some kind of a black box which has a cable going back to the computer. Using the computer you turn on or off the various leds. I was told it wouldn't be that hard but I tried a small board (1ft by 1ft) and couldn't get the electronics to work. It was cheap though. The lights cost only about $30.00. The piece of cardboard was about $5.00 and I just drew the squares. The closest I came to making the whole thing work was when I just got a bunch of on/off toggle switches at Radio Shack, mounted them on a metal surface, and just flicked them on and off in whatever pattern I needed. It worked ok. Probably a bigger area would look a lot better.
I have also been working on an idea where laptops are used. The central server is the ref's machine and everyone else uses their browser to move around in the game. (Unfortunately, I just wiped my entire hard drive accidentally. Bought a new hard drive but referenced the wrong one when I went to partition it. I'm looking at recovery software to get everything back. I have never been so despressed as when I realized what I had done. And yes - I have backups but the last backup was about two months ago.
Re:Expensive (Score:5, Informative)
Parent
Re:Expensive (Score:3, Interesting)
I was thinking of something similar, but using wifi enabled PDAs. Trouble is I quit playing RPGs more than 15 years ago... doh!
Whenever I learn to program in a new language or on a new device, first thing I think of is RPGs. I've written character generators for everything from the Commodore Vic 20 up through Java.
Most fun thing I ever ma
WTF? (Score:5, Funny)
Good lord. 30 years ago the military would have spent several (hundred?) million dollars on something like this.
And people are using this for Dungeons and Dragons?
Christ, we used to sprawl out in my friend's rec-room.
God I'm old.
What they really want is ... (Score:3, Interesting)
This man (Score:5, Funny)
Why not return to Bigby's Bed of Eternal Solitude and cast grasping fist repeatedly and often!
So close and yet... (Score:5, Interesting)
Now, on each of your miniatures (the characters, the monsters, etc.) you put a tiny set of LEDs, blinking in a certain pattern.
The webcam can recognize each object by seeing the LEDs blinking in a certain order, and can even figure out which way they are facing.
Now, all of a sudden, you've got your physical objects mapped back into your virtual space. What's the point?
Ragnar (played by Dave) wants to cast a fireball spell. So Dave pulls out the "Spell" miniature, and the DM punches up "Fireball" on a list. Now, as Dave drags the spell miniature around on the board, a little (projected, virtual) dashed line stretches from the Ragnar miniature to the spell miniature. Around the spell miniature is an animation of a fireball exploding, set to the appropriate radius (20' in virtual space.) Dave can easily see if Ragnar's spell can go far enough, and how many people (good guys and bad) would be affected by different placements of the spell.
You also get to immediately measure how many distance increments your character is from the bad guy he's throwing a dagger at.
All sorts of things start turning out to be easy and cool.
Why bother with the physical objects? Because nothing's as cool as reaching out and grabbing something real and moving it interactively (which begs the question of why people play D&D instead of rugby). It's like a mouse to the power of 5. Plus, all the players can fiddle with measurements and stuff simultaneously.
Yes, you could also just pass around a wireless mouse, and move around virtual miniatures, instead. Probably pretty close to the same experience.
Instead of the "look-away" part of what these guys have to do, I think it would be awesome to have a dual-monitor set-up - but not many laptops let you drive two independent monitors. One monitor the players can see, one the DM can see. Drop in a wireless PDA or two for passing messages back and forth between players and DM (Rogue: "I steal the amulet!"), and you're cooking. *grin*
I didn't come up with this webcam + LEDs idea - I just have thought about how it would apply to Dungeons and Dragons. I first saw this kind of set up on a SIGGRAPH DVD, back in 2001. They were using it to play with how buildings would cast shadows and warp wind patterns. They also simulated a virtual holograph-making system. It was amazing to watch this video go. I can't remember the name of the group for the life of me. Can someone post a link? I gotta dig up that DVD!
A Good Idea, by not the ULTIMATE.... (Score:5, Interesting)
No, my friends, this [agyris.net] is the ultimate RPG table.
I am taken with how much effort and thought the creator of that table put together in planning, executing, and documenting his work. Truly, it's a work of art and quality far beyond a simple application of an LCD projector.
Best of all, it's a version 1.0 and additional refinements are to come.
Disclaimer: I don't play any of this stuff, but I know quality when I see it.