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Price Comparison Shopping in MMORPG

Posted by Hemos on Sat Oct 15, 2005 08:27 AM
from the it's-a-crazy-crazy-world dept.
Role Playing (Games) The Almighty Buck Entertainment Games
Mike writes "Whether you love it, hate it or are unaware of it the MMORPG secondary market, which deals with the trade of in-game commodities for real world cash, is here and growing. Some researchers suggest that this secondary market is likely to exceed the primary market (which is created by off-the-shelf game purchases and subscriptions)in years to come. But with so many vendors how do you know who to buy from, or even who your options are? Eye On MOGS is a search-engine come comparison/availability tool for the MMORPG secondary market. It was created by gamers, for gamers and as such we are very sensitive to the needs of those players who use the secondary market and the concerns of those who oppose it. " Not meant to be an advertisement - but I think it's a very telling sign when even the secondary market for games can have its own price compare engine.
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  • great googly moogly (Score:3, Funny)

    by sxtxixtxcxh (757736) on Saturday October 15 2005, @08:29AM (#13796881) Homepage Journal
    you try froogle.com?
  • Now I cant complain about a nonresponsive server.. :/

  • To those of you who have paid real cash for items (Score:3, Interesting)

    by Mattygfunk1 (596840) on Saturday October 15 2005, @08:32AM (#13796889) Homepage
    ... was it worth it?
    __
    Rich My Way [richmyway.com]
    • yes, my virtual car is very cheap to run so its saving me a fortune on gas costs
    • I've paid cash for gold in a couple of games. And each time, it made perfect sense. In most games, gold farming, especially solo at low levels, is rather dull. Skipping a dull part of the game for more interesting parts, even moreso if you've done it before in the same game (and are moving to a new server or playing a new account), doesn't sound crazy to me, nor did it ever turn out to be in practice.

      I've also bought an account with a little startup cash and equipment (didn't use the characters) as a sec
      • I feel you. Working every day is dull. If I can manage to pull off a nice bank heist I can get on to more interesting fun parts of life. Hell, lets all do it!
            • When did he ever say he PK's?

              He paid for the ability to skip dull content in favor of more entertaining stuff. Not how I'd spend my money... but live & let live, I say.

              If the game companies were really smart, they would offer such an option themselves. There's clearly a demand for it.

              I thought WoW finally got around the tedium of low-level grinding. There were all these quests and all this fun stuff to do, right at first level! Endless content! Woo-hoo!!!

              Then I created my second human character, an

      • Re:To those of you who have paid real cash for ite (Score:5, Insightful)

        by Pxtl (151020) on Saturday October 15 2005, @02:52PM (#13798610) Homepage
        This should set of alarm bells to game developers. There is a part of the game so unbearably dull that players will pay cold, hard cash to skip it.

        • This should set of alarm bells to game developers. There is a part of the game so unbearably dull that players will pay cold, hard cash to skip it.

          Having played Everquest for years (up to a level 66 enchanter / level 56 druid) and WoW pretty much since it came out, I'd have to say that the issue is not that there is a part of the game that is unbearably dull. The truth is that the game really doesn't change much from low to high levels. I personally found the upper level raiding game to be incredibly b

    • While I've never done it, I can explain why it can definitely be worth it.

      You see, people make money when they work, and thus, their time becomes worth a certain amount of money. If they determine for whatever reason that it would be a better use of their money to save them time in the game, and enable them to have something or do something in game, then it can definitely be worth it.

      I think the reason people have trouble understanding why it would be worth it is because society in general is still hung up

        • "Now, picture that guy, but willing to pay insane amounts of money to skip past the beginning and middle parts of an online game, and then acts like he's actually earned his right to kill and grief you,"

          Wow...sounds like you have some personal issues you need to work out.

          Honestly..."that guy" is my little bro. And it used to be me when I was younger. And while I point out to him that he's not good just because he can cheat...ultimately, if thats what lets him enjoy the game and get what he feels is his m

    • Yes (Score:5, Informative)

      by Dragoon412 (648209) on Saturday October 15 2005, @09:30AM (#13797115)
      A common theme in MMORPGs is that you have to work for what you want. Many pieces of equipment, abilities, spells, titles, and other objects not only advance your character in-game, but also function as a sort of status symbol. Take EQ2 for example; if you see someone with flashy armor and a weapon that has a unique model and particle effect, that character's probably of a very high level. Same deal with horses, except in that case, a low-level twink (someone with a wealthy, high-level character that puchased equipment for his low-level character) can have one, too.

      The problem is, you get this sort of 4-tier market developing in-game. At any given point, there's equipment that's below average - which no one wants, average equipment - which is usually bland and a bit on the expensive side, but attainable, and twink equipment - usually slightly better than the average equipment, but ridiculously overpriced. The only people who can afford that equipment are either twinks, or someone who's buying their cash off eBay. The final category is quested equipment, which is usually even better than the twink gear at any given level, but takes much more time and effort to get. ...and given the 3 markets of player-sellable good (below average, average, and twink), well... the twink market has by far the highest margin of profit, so it's practically oversaturated. The other two? Not so much.

      So your problem, as a player, is that if you're new(er) to the game, and you want some flashy or high-end equipment, there's a good chance that it's not accessible, or will require significant time and patience to get via a quest model. Quite frankly, a lot of us don't have the time.

      So, in my case, I've purchased money in-game before (in both City of Heroes and WoW, during the brief time I've played it). Sometimes, the developers skew too far towards their "work for it" ideal and forget that it's a game that's supposed to be enjoyable. So if you want equipment X, and the only way to get it is either via outlay of cash you couldn't possibly have at the level that gear is designed for, or to spend hours upon hours doing mostly unenjoyable questing for it, does it make sense to buy it? Depends. How much is it?

      I make about $25/hour. Now, if I really want equipment X, and it's on eBay for $50, what makes more sense? Spend 6 hours farming/questing for it, or put another two hours in at the office and call it even?

      Now, obviously, you can't do this with everything unless you've got a huge chunk of disposable income. But in some cases? It's a lot more convenient for a player to stick to his real-life profession and use the advantages it affords to help him catch up in game. ...now, the question as to whether or not this constitutes good game design is a whole different issue. But the point is, sometimes, because of the current MMORPG design paradigm, it just makes economic and entratainment sense to buy it off eBay.
      • What you're describing can get really out of hand. You can get really unbalanced players, who buy all of their equip off of ebay and the like. SOE even opened a market system for trading in-game items for money. That's when I quit EQ2. I think this kind of thing is degrading to the gameplay and fun. It pisses me off to thing I earned all of my armor, which really isn't all that good anyway, and then I see some lvl 2 with a horse, which I can't even come close to affording in game, and it pisses me off. If

      • Re:Yes (Score:4, Insightful)

        by Anonymous Coward on Saturday October 15 2005, @10:33AM (#13797388)
        This is a sign of how poorly designed these MMO's are. You consider the very act of playing the game to be a chore.

        Why do you pay money, and then pay more money, for a game that you enjoy so little that you actually consider staying extra time at the office to avoid having to play it?
      • One of the reasons I enjoy WoW so much is that certain things can't be (well, would be very very difficult, along the lines of paying someone to drag you through a 40 man raid instance) obtained by a person of your play type.

        Almost all high end equipment is Bind on Pickup (It cannot be transfered to another character) which preserves the status symbolism of these items, and so in that regard I could care less if the person next to me has a few tradable Bind on equip epic peices.

        What is bothersome, ho
    • I've bought stuff in MMOs several times, and each time it was worth it:

      The first thing I bought was a Jedi account in Star Wars: Galaxies. I paid $100 for it and turned around and sold it for $1,000 on eBay a month later when I got bored with it. $900 profit and getting to play? Definitely worth it.

      I've also bought gold in WoW - 2k gold for $75 bucks from some guy who was leaving the game. That amounts to about an hour at my day job and I avoided the endless boring as hell grind to get an epic mount and had
    • ... was it worth it?

      The same question can be asked movie goers, or people interested in soccer games.

      Was going there to watch worth it?

      It's a matter of your tastes and preferences for entertainment.

      Why are you so interested in what kind of entertainment people like?

  • License problems (Score:4, Insightful)

    by bl00d6789 (714958) on Saturday October 15 2005, @08:34AM (#13796896)
    Most MMORPG makers include a clause in their EULA prohibiting the sale of in-game items or coin for real-world money, since they own the IP. Thus far, smaller scale operations have gotten around this by claiming that they're just selling their time, but it wouldn't be very hard at all for the software makers to adjust their agreements to specifically prohibit even that, and begin cracking down on the sellers. Not that this would stop the smaller time operations, but it would be hard to build a large and successful business on this model without being shut down. Out-of-game markets are bad for the in-game economy, so it would make sense for the software makers to want to crack down. Or at least take a piece of the action. [sony.com]
    • Thus far, smaller scale operations have gotten around this by claiming that they're just selling their time

      Interesting way to view it...

      Suppose I have an uber high level character. This guy is powerful enough that he can stroll right through the Quest for the +2 Dagger of Extra Niftiness without the slightest difficulty.

      There are a lot of struggling newbies, however, who haven't a prayer of getting that dagger for a long time yet. One of them therefore approaches me and says 'if you will take your cha

    • Thus far, smaller scale operations have gotten around this by claiming that they're just selling their time,

      Many such operations have claimed that, yes. But so far, they haven't been challenged in court, so it hasn't yet been determined whether or not they're actually getting around anything.

      I suspect, however, that most judges have the good sense to understand the concept of, "If it quacks like a duck...." Just because they say they're selling their time doesn't change the fact that the people running su
        • The claim of selling time rather than items is intended to be protection (however feeble) against lawsuits. Most MMOG companies explicitly state in their EULA/TOS that they can terminate an account at any time for any reason, so the "selling time" claim isn't meant to protect against account deletion.

    • >Most MMORPG makers include a clause in their EULA prohibiting the sale of in-game items or coin for
      >real-world money, since they own the IP.

      What does IP have anything to do with it? And if it did in some way, why would they need the EULA?
  • Now I can finally say that I've read ALL of TFA's

  • Not an advertisement? (Score:5, Insightful)

    by Isldeur (125133) on Saturday October 15 2005, @08:35AM (#13796901)
    Not meant to be an advertistment - but I think it's a very telling sign when even the secondary market for games can have its own price compare engine.

    Not meant to be an advertisement? The only link in the story is the dude's name - which goes right to this search engine website.

  • Here's an instant cure for homelessness, joblessness, and poverty. Just set some bums up with EQ accounts and have them farm valuable objects all day long, sell them to other people, and they too can now become productive members of the real economy, will no longer need welfare, and will be generating taxable income.
  • In the virtual world, you buy/do anything that rules allow.

    It is as if you are sucked in by the game controller, rather than going in through the phone line.

  • Flawed gameplay (Score:4, Interesting)

    by lordsilence (682367) * on Saturday October 15 2005, @08:47AM (#13796934) Homepage
    Sorry but the idea of selling in-game stuff for RL cash is just wrong.
    At least to me. It takes away a part of the game where you just play to have fun.

    Take a look at Everquest. Go with a party and you wont get the people who think "Wow, I'm going out to have fun with my friends bashing a couple of mean nasties". No you'll get the people who think "I wonder how much dollar I can sell this rare item for..."

    It's just taken a turn for greed in games where they encourage or allow people to sell stuff for RL money.

    That's why I love EVE-Online [eve-online.com] so much, not only do CCP (company who runs the game) prohibit ISK (the ingame currency) selling, but they crack down hard on those who sell. But I can actually be evil in this game and loot pillage and plunder, meaning if I find a macro-player I'll just take him down myself...

    It's an ultra-capitalistic in-game world where there are no entirely safe-zones. Macro isk-farmers live a dangerous life since "pirates" [eve-pirate.com] (a class of players who live outside the in-game law to plunder very much like 17th century pirates) love to go after players who arent watching their client just sitting there macroing away.
    • CCP "prohibits" in game currency sales just as any other MMOG company. That is: it's forbidden by the EULA but everyone does it. Current going rate is about 3 million ISK for a $. A short search on ebay or google will show you hundreds of offers for sale, and since Eve-Online runs on a single server it also cuts down on a lot of the logistics problems that sharded games put on ebayers with having to mantain stocks on different servers.

      In fact, it's probably one of the most ebay-plagued games along with Line
    • I don't know why you think EVE promotes the "wow I'm going to have fun with my friends bashing a couple of mean nasties" vibe more than EQ. Its the same deal, just that things are sold in game. If anything the only game that comes close is City of Heroes. Credits are pointless after a certain period of time, and its ALL about the teamwork.

      • Bashing macroers was something I gave as an example. Showing that macroers are often caught if they try it. EVE isnt really safe enough to do large-scaled macroing operations. Someone else said "everybody sells isk" that's wrong.. it's more likely that more buy isk than sell , if you take a look on ebay you'll see maybe 5 to 7 big sellers. These laundry their money by having loads of accounts to do it on. But in reality there arent too many players who just play eve to farm isk. In this case buying isk wou

  • MMOBAY (Score:5, Interesting)

    by Doc Ruby (173196) on Saturday October 15 2005, @08:58AM (#13796968) Homepage Journal
    Why not a MMORPG interface to real auctions? Some of these MMORPGs have much better interfaces than eBay. I'd love to put pics of my saleable item in my MMORPG store, with all the eBay-style auction features automating most of the auction, but with the 3D realtime interface for answering questions, last-minute haggling... A 3D model of my item could answer many questions about size; people could "borrow" a copy to put into their own model of wherever they're going to put the thing when they buy it. And the virtual world could include a "cancel button" that yanked back a loaned "floor model" from a potential buyer after their loan expires. MMORPGs already include much better chat interfaces than eBay, even VoIP. And a gallery of my "other auctions" and "sold items", as well as feedback and other auction detail, would be much better presented than in the flat, lifeless eBay style.

    The best way to get there from here is with an OSS MMORPG. What GPL'ed (or BSD'ed or public domain, whichever OSS license) MMORPG is the most popular right now? One with smooth 3D animations and controls that any normal could use to navigate? A MMORPG network which a developer can join with their own server, which pops up their own domain into the common game map? Which has a simple scripting language to attach properties and behaviors to in-game objects created by players? And which can connect to a RDBMS (like Postgres) for realtime updates to object properties?
      • I'm talking about using the game's features to attract nongamers to an auction system. And to catch people in between gamers and "ebayers", who are most people, especially people not yet using the Internet. So I'm looking for the most popular open-source MMORPG system, that will presumably have had the most "peer review". I'd like to take a mature MMORPG that is both hackable and already designed for anyone to insert their own "module" into a "world", for a "virtual reality" system that makes "personal ecom

  • Given currency trends... (Score:5, Funny)

    by screwballicus (313964) on Saturday October 15 2005, @09:12AM (#13797033)
    With the way the American dollar has been trading against most international currencies over the past few years, I don't know why anyone would trade their hard-farmed gold for the monopoly money their employers are paying them.

  • I used to oppose commodification until WoW (Score:4, Interesting)

    by disc-chord (232893) on Saturday October 15 2005, @09:12AM (#13797034)
    I've played MMOs since UO and always had a bug up my ass for people who would buy/sell in-game items. But as soon as I started playing WoW the absurdity of NOT buying gold became very clear to me.

    From http://igxe.com/ [igxe.com] (I recommend them over IGE, they deliver much faster and have much better prices) I can buy 1000 Gold for $62.99. That is enough to buy an "Epic Mount" which is a vital part of End Game PVP. Or I could farm for the gold in game for about 400 hours.

    Let's consider this very carefully. Let's say you have a shitty job as a waiter or something and make $10/hr (net). You could work your real job for 6 hours being bored and obtain you Epic Mount, or you could spend 400 hours being bored farming in game.

    For me this is a no brainer as my time is much more valuable than $10/hr. This is why I don't make my own shoes either!
    • Unfortunately it does have an effect in-game... it unbalances the economy.

      More availability of money -> higher prices -> need more money -> buy from gillsellers -> more availablity of money -> etc.

      If FFXI it's got so bad that new players have basically no chance.. the inflation rate on Fairy is so ludicrous that you can see an item in the AH, go to farm the money and find it's doubled in price in a couple of days. There are so many people buying that they'll pay absolutely anything - and the gill sellers love this as they make more RL money, so they ramp the prices up as high as possible. Honest players can't afford anything any more, and newbies have no chance (the cash from the lowlevel quests that's supposed to get you started is now not enough to do anything with).

      And we're not talking chump change either.. some of the more expensive items are being bought for $500 worth of gill... these aren't people with boring jobs paying $10 to get started - they're effectively buying their way through the whole game.

      • Speaking as a WoW player, I've noticed quite a bit of inflation. Nothing like you're talking about certainly - people just starting out on a server most definitely have a chance to score some cash, especially by playing the in-game markets themselves. There are global rare drops (weapons/armor that are really good for their level) that you can auction, which are comparable to dungeon boss drops (which cannot be auctioned). A good rare drop will sell for 20g just because it's rare.

        Also, in my opinion, the

        • The root of the problem is that currency is constantly being produced, but it's being produced faster than it's destroyed. Every monster you kill generates some cash, but the only things that effectively 'destroy' money are 1) Mounts 2) Training 3) Repairs and 4) The limited number of useful things that NPCs sell. Everything else, you just sell right back to the gold farmer for that epic sword.

          Trust me - if you're raiding MC or BWL there's plenty of money being destroyed in repairs. I'm up to 6 epics (tw

  • Scarcity is arbitrary in a virtual world. Only those things which the software puts fewer of in a database are "scarce." Any search engine which improves the the ability to find the best prices on items which could be infinite in quantity and have zero cost to manufacture seems silly.

  • People who buy gold are crappy players anyway. (Score:3, Interesting)

    by CharAznable (702598) on Saturday October 15 2005, @10:12AM (#13797289)
    Sure, someone's lazy ass can buy gold off ebay and get all this good gear, or contract power levelling services or whatever. But the fact is that these people won't deserve their gear, and it will be readily apparent when they play. All the time you spend gathering your money and XP is not just empty time. You spend that time gathering experience and insight in to the game itself. When I run into a warrior with very good gear and he has no clue how to properly tank, it's painfully obvious where he/she got his stuff. People who worked for their gear know how to play the game.

  • Anyone who is willing to pay subscription fees and pay substantial sums of money for advantages in a video game needs to have their priorities checked. The fact that there are people making a living selling those advantages is just sad.

    I mean, seriously, there are better games than MMORPGs out there. Games that don't require hours upon hours of grinding for experience and/or real money to even get you started playing competitively. Not to mention all the other things you can do with your money.

  • I have played several MMOs, most notably EQ (played for a few years on and off) and more recently WOW (finally quit after my 3rd level 60, I cannot stand to raid and that is all there is to do at 60). I have never once bought gold and I dislike it when other people do it. I understand why someone would buy virtual currency with real money, but I feel it is unfair to anyone that does not have the IRL money to blow on fake money.

    I could afford to buy gold, but I never will. Gold buyers and sellers apparantly

  • Other Auction Price Information Services (Score:3, Interesting)

    by miller60 (554835) on Saturday October 15 2005, @12:40PM (#13797969) Homepage
    There are a number of services emerging to offer price information on online games. I've put together a list of links [virtualeconomies.net] for anyone interested. Initially, most of the services offering pricing info on MMOG assets based their data on sales they aggregated on eBay. Among these are Advanced Economic Research Systems [www.aers.ca], which has been quoted in a lot of news stories about the dollar volume of game asset trading on eBay. These services usually involved fees. There are also desktop software products that can generate detailed reports from eBay information.

    Auction sites like IGE offer affiliate programs, allowing gaming web sites to make cash by referring potential buyers. This may become the business model for Eye on MOGs and similar sites. Several sites have offered Everquest info for some time, including EQEcon [eqecon.com] and EQ Prices [eqprices.com], although I gather they're less critical since Sony opened its new "official" auctions at Station Exchange.

  • More downsides to RMT (Score:5, Insightful)

    by Hamusutaa (5714) on Saturday October 15 2005, @01:27PM (#13798179) Homepage
    I play FFXI quite a bit, and Real Market Transactions have been around for a while. We had almost a year before it became prevalent, but now it's everywhere. Square-Enix seems to make a passing effort to remove RMTers -- there was one big purge where they did a surprise deletion of a bunch of accounts, not giving them time to move their loot elsewhere. So they just restarted under new names and have gotten back to where they were or past it since.

    People argue against RMT in many ways, most of which have already been mentioned: People who buy gil are not as good of players, they haven't "earned" their gear. There are two I haven't seen mentioned yet:

    1) Buying gil condones the unsportsmanlike behavior of the RMTs. Most RMTs are brutal in their tactics of obtaining their items. There are a handful of notorious monsters that appear only every few hours, or even up to 24 hours, that on my server, the RMT have monopolized. When the time is ready for them to appear, the RMTs are there, and will bully people out, use the other monsters to try and disrupt other players, stand around and make things difficult, and in some cases, use client hacks to make their chances of getting the claim when the monster spawns higher than the average user. All of these actions are against the Terms of Service of FFXI, but even when reported, Square-Enix does nothing most of the time because they did not witness it.

    2) Buying gil reduces the value of that gil. This is a big personal pet peeve of mine, and something that isn't easily measured. Lets say you spent a month farming and earning 1,000,000 gil. You then go to the Auction House and try to buy an item that you've been wanting for a while. That item's last price in the history was 800,000. You try bidding 800,000, and you don't get it. So you bid 810,000 and you don't get it. You try 850,000... and you still don't get it. You realize that if you go up to 900,000, that's another hour or so of work farming for that gil, so you hold off, and hope it will come down in price and you'll try again later.

    Now, think of someone who just paid $50 for that 1,000,000 gil. They bid 800,000 and nothing happens. They bid 850,000 and don't get it, then 900,000 and get it. That extra 50,000 to them is only $2.50, so why not? So now, they have the item, but damage has been wrought. Now, the last listing in the history is 900,000, so when the next person comes along who wants to sell that item, they will probably sell it for 900,000 not 800,000.

    If you extrapolate that to every single item in the game, you get a horrible inflation effect, which is what has been happening. Granted, there are other factors causing it, but in the last two years, items have gone up in value by factors of ten, sometimes doubling withing the course of days. It makes keeping up very diffucult for someone who doesn't buy gil.

    My bottom line: Please don't buy gil/gold/influence/whatever. It's bad, mmmkay?
    • The only things of value in GW are "unlocking" items on the account for PVP characters. Gold has no purpose in achieving that.

      Now if you could buy accounts with everything unlocked that would be worthwhile.
      • I'm not quite sure what you're getting at. I didn't mis-spell anything. The only mis-spelt word there was "comparason", which was a direct quote from the title of the article.


        Perhaps you should be embarrassed about your lack of reading comprehension ;-)

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