Bugs Plague New Xbox 360 Video Service

eldavojohn writes "The BBC is running a story on problems with the Xbox 360's HD video service that went live a few days ago. I have wondered quite a bit how Microsoft runs the proxy caches for this service and how they are ensuring that their end consumers are not creating high amounts of internet traffic while downloading HD video." From the article: "Gamers can buy TV programmes but the movies are rented and are automatically deleted from the console's hard drive after a fixed period. 'We've made progress over the past 24 hours, and the team is dedicated to fixing the issues and continues to work as fast as they can around the clock to get the service running as seamlessly as you have come to expect,' wrote Mr Hryb, who is Xbox Live's director of programming, on his Major Nelson Xbox blog.

Not so good... :)

[Lord_Rion (15642)]

Well.. I logged into live on the first day this service was offered (stupid I know) and have been trying to dl a HD movie for a couple of days now. When I went to bed last night it was at 59%. If this is the best they can do "It's not soo good!". IMO.. :)

Re:Not so good... :)

[RichMan (8097)]

I wonder when the time out starts:

1) pay for movie, expiry time set to 4 days, download begins
2) .... downloading ....
3) .... 5 days later ....
4) download complete.
5) Your movie has expired. Would you like to renew your rental for 4 more days?

6) Profit X 2

Re:Not so good... :)

[abandonment (739466)]

if it's based on their standard DRM stuff you recieve your license the first time the movie is played - WiMP goes onto the net and grabs the license...so in 'theory' it wouldn't start until you actually finish the download.

which is the biggest area of issues with this new service apparently - simply getting a download to complete is the hard part...

360 is game system 1st, video download service 2nd

[ConfusedSelfHating (1000521)]

There will be bugs for a while. Microsoft will attempt to iron out those bugs. Microsoft has the advantage that this is an added feature. People buy the Xbox 360 as a game system, it won't be a big deal if the video download service takes a while to get up and running. Of course people who have paid for downloads that haven't worked will be pissed.

but..

[Ender Ryan (79406)]

But.. if this was another one of Sony's screwups, they'd be vilified as being "evil" here on /. at this time. Or if it was Nintendo, people would be claiming that Nintendo's screwups just make things more fun or some such nonsense.. =P

Yeah, so this does in fact suck for people wanting to use this service. OTOH, it's a hard problem, and I don't see any other company offering a similar service. I didn't expect this to go off without a hitch.

So, I take it you'll give Sony an equally easy pass when their HD

Re:

[ConfusedSelfHating (1000521)]

But.. if this was another one of Sony's screwups, they'd be vilified as being "evil" here on /. at this time. Or if it was Nintendo, people would be claiming that Nintendo's screwups just make things more fun or some such nonsense.. =P

I'm being lenient with Microsoft, because the HD download service is not the main function of the Xbox 360. A laptop battery is critical to the functioning of a laptop. When it fails in a manner that can take down an aircraft, people start to complain.

I would make the sugg

Re:

[Ender Ryan (79406)]

I have a feeling that there is a lot of internal pressure for Sony not to offer video downloads because of the need to push the Blu Ray format

BTW, you're 100% wrong. According to Phil Harrison, they already have the capability and are working on "business development" for such a service. It's been a planned feature for a while.

I'd provide a link, but it was from a magazine interview with Harrison.

Re:

[cbreaker (561297)]

"Sony has a web browser that pretty much requires you to plug in a USB mouse and keyboard to be able to use it. If I wanted to do that, I'd use a PC."

Ahh hah!

I've been reading a lot of stuff on Digg against the PS3, but I think it's a pretty damned cool box. One of the reasons I really want one (and won't get my hands on until after the holidays, most likely) is because you can use it AS a PC. Sony allows you to install other operating systems on the machine. There's already Fedora Core available for i

Re:

[cbreaker (561297)]

I haven't been giving Slashdot much attention lately. I kind of assumed that people wouldn't hate Sony on here as much as they do on Digg. Personally, I don't hate them any more then any other big company. They're all bastards =) Nintendo and Apple are NO exceptions. People have a short memory - Nintendo was a real jerk to deal with when they had a virtual monopoly on the game console market, and Apple really banged a lot of companies in the ass when they allowed Clone Macs, and then stopped them as s

arg

[AcidLacedPenguiN (835552)]

I'm surprised there aren't a million "Zomg! Microsoft is teh sux, x rullzz" (where x is the name of their console of choice) comments already. The troubling thing is that Nintendo seems to have the same problem, and I bet once Sony has stuff to sell in their online PS3 stores they'll suffer from it as well. It is obvious that there is a demand for online movie/ television sales, but this raises a damn fine question, are ISPs really able to dish out enough bandwidth? I think that while we are entirely ready to receive these services it is evident that our ISPs and Microsoft's/Nintendo's/Sony's server farms are not ready to provide us. I see in the news all the time that in the UK and Japan 10MBit/S connections are fairly common, but here in the US and Canada a 1 to 3 MBit/S connection is fairly uncommon. (Keep in mind I'm talking about home connections, not business or corporate)

It's like our ISPs are keeping their services low, their profits high, and their pockets lined. . . But that's a whole other ballgame. . .

Re:

[Thansal (999464)]

Meh, we expect this type of thing by now, and it does not matter on the company. I expect that they will have it working in the next couple of days.

Speaking of gettign stuff workign in the next couple of days, can any one report on how the Wii online stuff is going? is it working now?

Re:

[Headcase88 (828620)]

I got access to the Shop on launch day easily. I visit it plenty though I've only bought one thing (Bomberman '93), and no probs with that download. It does take about 15-30 seconds to enter the shop though.

Long story short, the online service has always "been working", if you're fortunate enough to have a fully-working system to go with it.

Fixing the Wii problem

[Quila (201335)]

The troubling thing is that Nintendo seems to have the same problem

Switching my wireless router to channel 11 as suggested on the Nintendo site seems to have fixed all of my online problems.

Re:

[Yvan256 (722131)]

I don't know where you live in Canada, but here in Quebec (part of Canada, last time I checked) 3Mbps DSL connections and 5-10Mbps cable connections are the norm, not the exception.

In fact, even the "low-cost" option is to have a 1Mbps DSL connection.

Re:

[Blakey Rat (99501)]

In Washington State, Verizon offers 3Mbps DSL for $25/month. That's cheap, dirt cheap. If you're getting less than 3Mbps for more than $25/month, you're being totally ripped off.

Re:

[lazyl (619939)]

That's an odd comment.

Verizon offers [x] for [y]. That's cheap, dirt cheap. If you're getting less than [x] for more than [y], you're being totally ripped off.

Seems to me that if [x] for [y] is dirt cheap then less than [x] for more than [y] would be standard.

Re:

[Yvan256 (722131)]

Did the parent really mean MB instead of Mb, though. A lot of people mix-up the two, and companies always sell their connections as Mb, not MB.

Re:

[Yvan256 (722131)]

Check the parent again, he wrote "MBit/S"... So yes, for those who know the convention, he did specify "MB" but since he wrote "MBit" I think we can assume he meant "Mb". ;-)

Re:

[jusdisgi (617863)]

I see in the news all the time that in the UK and Japan 10MBit/S connections are fairly common, but here in the US and Canada a 1 to 3 MBit/S connection is fairly uncommon.

Surely we're not so backwater....I mean, I'm in the middle of Missouri (not exactly a metropolitan locality) and I've got 5mbps cable. And that's just their standard speed...if I wanted to pay another $15 I could have 10mbps. The DSL speeds range from .5-7mbps IIRC. I find it hard to fathom that the vast majority of Americans (note, th

Re:

[Have Blue (616)]

Apple uses Akamai for the ITMS and hasn't had any problems with it outside of a couple of days following a major feature or content launch. Granted, they're only selling audio and 480p video, but it's obviously doable..

Why have a 'Fixed Period'?

[HappySqurriel (1010623)]

Why do they even have a fixed period of time before a movie is deleted from a person's hard-drive?

The XBox 360's hard-drive is 20GBs which (should) allow for (about) 20 to 40 SD movies or 5 to 10 HD movies; eventually they will have to 'return' the movie (that is delete it) or they will run out of hard-drive space. Currently most rental places have eliminated late fees (with a small restocking fee after a week), and online services have no time limitations, so why would I pay the same ammount and be put in a far more limited system?

Re:

[by Anonymous Coward]

Currently most rental places have eliminated late fees (with a small restocking fee after a week)

Please explain how a "small restocking fee" after returning a movie after a fixed period of time isn't a "late fee." Just because they're calling it something else doesn't change what it is.

Re:

[LordKronos (470910)]

most late fee are per day late the restocking fee is the same if you are 1 day late or 20 days late

Yeah, well that's certainly not a restocking fee. It's a flat rate late fee.

Re:

[gEvil (beta) (945888)]

Sure it is. Cos when you return a movie late, they have to run it under the barcode machine to check it back in, then they have to put it back on the shelf. You don't think they'd offer this service for free, do you? I mean, when you return a regular movie "on time," they have to run it under the barcode machine to check it back in, and then they have to put it back on the shelf. Totally different! It makes perfect sense that they'd charge you a "restocking fee" in one instance, but not the other. I sure am

Re:

[Nightspirit (846159)]

Because the movie companies would not allow you to "keep" a $6 720p movie when they could sell the same (with slightly better resolution) for $25.

Yah, you would only be able to keep one movie, but the movie studies are too blind to see that this is a limitation.

Re:

[Keeper (56691)]

Storage space isn't the issue. Rental movies can't be stored for any real duration -- they're deleted after you watch them. TV shows can be redownloaded as many times as you like after purchasing them. If you run out of space, delete the show; if you want to watch it in the future, download it again for free.

Re:

[Blakey Rat (99501)]

Well, there are rumors that Microsoft will be releasing a larger HD soon. Either 60 or 80 GB, I believe.

On another note, do you seriously believe that a "restocking fee" is any different than a late fee? If so, why?

Re:

[PygmySurfer (442860)]

WTF format are they in? HD TV shows I've downloaded (either XviD or QuickTime (h.264 I believe)) are ~700MB for 44 minutes, not 5-7GB!

You should get your 360 online regardless of TV/Movie downloads. The demos alone are worth it, for deciding what to buy next. If you don't want to game online, Xbox Live Silver is free.

Bandwidth and Hard Disk

[AKAImBatman (238306)]

The God's honest truth is that the general bandwidth available and the 360 hard disk size conspire against downloadable HDTV content. If you're using this service, you're basically trying a beta service that going to have difficulities until the consumer infrastructure is updated.

That said, this is the future. Pure and simple. IMHO, Bluray and HDDVD disks will not gain traction in this generation, and will end up losing to download services like iTunes and 360 Videos. So keep an eye on this space, but expect a few bumps until the technology is ready.

(Not that Bluray and HDDVD isn't without their own bumps...)

Re:

[HappySqurriel (1010623)]

I agree that a service like this is the future, but I think that the future is further off than people expect ...

There are two things that are preventing the adoption of any HD movie format; few people own a HDTV, in particular a HDTV that is high enough quality to notice the improvment between HD and 480p; and there is so little HD content that people really don't notice the difference between HD and 480p. I know people will disagree with me about this but until every broadcast is in 720p/1080i and everyon

Re:

[cgenman (325138)]

There is a clear quality difference between recorded HDTV and broadcast HDTV. I agree with your assessment: broadcast HDTV is of so low quality as to be unnoticable. But having worked with HDTV's for about a year now, the low-rez recorded stuff is just terribly noticable, especially on the size of TV's where HDTV matters.

The lack of HDTV content is just a scanning issue. Take the negative, run it under a scanner, re-balance the colors, done. It's no more difficult to create HDTV content from a print neg

Re:

[Mr2001 (90979)]

Target had a 19" LCD HDTV for around $170. Most of the shoppers had one of these in their cart. At this price point, just about everyone can afford to have an HDTV. There is little or no market for a standard tube TV anymore, when a HDTV can be had at the same price point.

I don't know about you, but I have a 27" TV in my living room, and so does everyone I know (if not a larger one).

19" is tiny, especially for a widescreen display. Using this calculator [cavecreations.com] to compare the sizes, I see that even for 16:9 content

Re:

[Mr2001 (90979)]

HDTV can't really take off until a good HDTV model is affordable for the masses, and at this rate, that'll still be another three years or so. Why get a 19" 4:3 HDTV for $170 when you can get a 19" 4:3 SDTV for $80? It's not like you can tell the difference anyway; a 19" 4:3 set doesn't provide any of the advantages that HDTV is known for.

Re:

[friedmud (512466)]

LCD != HDTV

There is no way that that 4:3 ratio LCD panel for $140 is an "HDTV" (that is, capable of accepting 720p or 1080i). What you were most likely seeing is an LCD TV... there is a big difference.

I actually consider this counter-productive. Wal-Mart/Target and the like are selling people on "Low cost HDTV!" when in reality, what they are selling isn't HD at all. People snap them up because they don't know better... therefore flooding the market with even _more_ TV's that aren't HD capable...

I've bee

No

[HalAtWork (926717)]

That said, this is the future. Pure and simple. IMHO, Bluray and HDDVD disks will not gain traction in this generation, and will end up losing to download services like iTunes and 360 Videos

No. No way. You can't lend movies to friends this way, play it in your van on the way to grandma's, play it again at grandma's when the kids want to see it again, you can't have a copy of a movie on your shelf for later whenever you feel like watching it and wherever. This will fail. Maybe as a rental-only service

Re:

[AKAImBatman (238306)]

You can't lend movies to friends this way, play it in your van on the way to grandma's, play it again at grandma's when the kids want to see it again

Yet. Future iterations of online content will almost definitely allow for either media to be burned, USB key copies to be made, or copies to be made to other receivers over WiFi. So when your car is parked in the garage, you'll be able to switch out the kid's movies with the latest ones you've downloaded online. Making it happen is all a matter of consumer dema

Re:

[powerlord (28156)]

Yet. Future iterations of online content will almost definitely allow for either media to be burned, USB key copies to be made, or copies to be made to other receivers over WiFi. So when your car is parked in the garage, you'll be able to switch out the kid's movies with the latest ones you've downloaded online. Making it happen is all a matter of consumer demand.

TiVo2Go already lets me move (most) content off the recorder, and onto a computer, as well as transcode it for an iPod or PSP.

I also remember hear

Don't Bash Microsoft

[SilentOneNCW (943611)]

This doesn't look to be a problem due to poor engineering. This merely looks like Microsoft has underestimated the popularity of it's service. If anything, it is an indicator of Microsoft's continuing success in this console war, even as the PS3 and the Wii launch.

Re:

[Caffeinate (1031648)]

I would have to agree with this statement. 360 certainly has itself well placed in the current market; good games, good support (even if you have had problems, I think they're doing a good job at addressing the concerns of the community). I can certainly see the 360 becoming the centre of my entertainment system, especially if Microsoft successfully releases a Zune/portable Xbox and puts their IPTV technology into the Xbox. Because as popular as omgwtfM$!!1! may be on /., you have to admit that when they

Re:

[Thansal (999464)]

Heh, yup I tried to buy one of those. 2 mins before 11 PST the site slowed t oa crawl, and for about 5 mins after the site just did not respond.

That is kinda impressive to do to amazon.com.

Re:

[Blakey Rat (99501)]

1) Yes, Amazon needs to "wootify" their servers. (Actually Woot.com goes down every day also...) I also missed out on the $100 Xbox deal, but it's no biggie since I already have one. (Was trying for a friend of mine.)

2) The fact that Microsoft's servers are literally OVERLOADED with people trying to use a gaming console for video shows that there seem to be a good many people wanting to do that. I mean, I know the whole "everybody thinks exactly like me!" disease is rampant here on Slashdot, but when the *a

Re:

[Yvan256 (722131)]

but it is like Apple's definition of HD, which is something ridiculous like 640 pixels wide?

Nice troll, but I'm betting you never downloaded an HD movie trailer from Apple's website. It's 1920x800 for widescreen content, such as the HD trailer for The Simpsons Movie.

Re:

[bartyboy (99076)]

Parent poster wasn't a troll. From the iTunes page:

Your favorite digital music store is now your favorite digital movie theater. Shop for hot new releases including Pirates of the Caribbean: The Curse of the Black Pearl, plus bestsellers and Disney library titles. Every movie you buy from the iTunes Store downloads at near DVD-quality 640-by-480 resolution(1) that looks great on both your computer and your iPod.

1. Exact resolution depends on aspect ratio.

Emphasis mine. Movie trailers are one thing, downl

Re:

[punkass (70637)]

near DVD-quality != HD Where in your quote does Apple state they are selling HD content?

Re:

[Yvan256 (722131)]

Parent poster wasn't a troll [...]

And I wasn't a flamebait. Here's what the parent said:

What resolution are the shows and movies? I've read that they sell them in HD and SD, but it is like Apple's definition of HD, which is something ridiculous like 640 pixels wide?

The parent read wrong. Apple sells content (shows and movies) in 640x480, nowhere do they say it's "HD content". I also pointed out that Apple also has trailers in HD, which are far more bigger than 640 pixels wide.

It's not my fault if the parent

Re:

[Ironsides (739422)]

Isn't a full HD rip of a 1 hour show a few gigs?

19.4Mbps (MegaBits) max. ~8.25GB/hour including any commercials. Then again, that is using MPEG2 with the ATSC (Broadcast DTV standard). Microsoft could be compressing the movies with WMV9 or h264 or one of the other compression standards and achieve a better compression ratio for the same quality. Theoretically, h264 and WMV9 could achieve a full hour in 4GB with the same quality, it would require a lot of adjustment, but given the amount of computing

Re:

[Have Blue (616)]

Microsoft is using VC-1, which is one of the Windows Media video codecs and the same codec used for the majority of next-generation DVD movies.

File Sizes and costs:

[cgenman (325138)]

V for Vendetta: 132 minutes
Standard Definition: 1.7 GB, $4
High Definition: 6.1 GB, $6

Poseidon: 98 minutes
Standard Definition: 1.3 GB, $4
High Definition: 4.5 GB, $6

Clash of the Titans: 117 Minutes
Standard Definition: 1.3 GB, $3
High Definition: 5.2 GB, $4.50

CSI Season 6, Episode 1: 43 Minutes
SD: 745 MB, $2
HD: 2.6 GB, $3

UFC Fights, Episode 1: 9 Minutes
SD: 240 MB, $2
HD: 997 MB, $3

Transformers Teaser Trailer: 1 minute
SD: 25 MB, Free
HD: 86 MB, Free

(1000 points for $12.50)

SD AVG: 10 MB per minute
HD AVG: 50 MB per minute

The quality of the normal-res shows are about what you'd expect for a mid-bitrate rip. I'm guessing a rip from an already compressed video source, just by the particulars of the artifacting. It looks fine for most filmed daylight videos, assuming there isn't too many solid sheets of light or dark. It does break down quite a bit on cartoons, a place where WMV has not done traditionally well, as the solid color gradients get stepped like a mayan temple and edges get fuzzy. Unfortunately, I haven't seen a high-def show on a high-def set, but the high-def videos that I've seen on regular resolution seem worth the upgrade if you like pretty pictures. If you just want to laugh at the South Park Warcraft video, the regular resolution stuff is fine. If you want to own a pristine, perfect, never-to-be-touched version... wait for the blue-ray.

BTW, a 100 GB disk is rumored / expected shortly. And now, badly needed.

Re:

[cheekyboy (598084)]

Unless every ISP enables multicast or at least for MS, torrents will always outdo millions of dollars for a network.

You simply cannot push out 50000 * 150kbs streams. Ok at best you can have 30 city locations to cluster it based on location.

Re:

[jonhorvath (934037)]

ISP should setup caching servers right on their network. They could then sell storage rights to content providers. This would be similar to how grocery stores sells self space for best visibility for their vendor's products. This would benefit all parties. It would lessen the load on the content provider's servers and network pipes. The ISP customer would get the fastest possible download speeds.