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Vanguard - Saga of Heroes Previewed

Posted by Zonk on Wed Feb 15, 2006 03:07 PM
from the play-to-crush dept.
PC Games (Games) Role Playing (Games)
Labyrrinth writes "The media blitz for the upcoming release of the new MMOG, Vanguard: Saga of Heroes has begun with 2 independent previews at IGN and Gamespot . From the article at Gamespot 'In days of old when knights were bold, elves with pointy sticks would totally beat up on a bunch of skeletons. You may have seen online games that take place in high-fantasy worlds, but recently, these games have become much more lenient on players, so that exploring, fighting, and even falling in battle has relatively minor consequences. Not since EverQuest of 1999 (a game that was infamously punishing back then and was clearly one of the main reasons why newer games got easier) has a new massively multiplayer game tried to offer a well-thought-out, but purposely steep, challenge.'" Normally I don't think previews are noteworthy, but Vanguard has been practically a black hole of information since development began.
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  • blah (Score:3, Insightful)

    by MuNansen (833037) on Wednesday February 15 2006, @03:16PM (#14726705)
    Well, those previews killed all interest I had in the game whatsoever. Sounds like a re-hash of the same old junk, just with a new engine and the same old "Poser-built" artistry. Blech.

  • All the annoyances of Everquest, but more so (Score:4, Insightful)

    by AuMatar (183847) on Wednesday February 15 2006, @03:26PM (#14726809)
    Let me get this straight- long travel times, corpse runs, heavy death penalties, money and xp grinds. I'm supposed to want to play this?
  • I knew Louis Savain [slashdot.org] was wrong: time travel is possible!

    At last, those who claim World of Warcraft & it's brethren are "too easy" or "too fun" have a way to recapture those heady Everquest I days, where games were work & fun was a dirty word!

  • That seems like a pretty big stretch to go from side-scrolling shooter to an MMOG...

    Oh, wait... Nevermind.

  • Yet another run-around-and-kill-stuff "RPG" minus the role-playing!

    The world will never be the same.

  • Difficult != Bad (Score:3, Informative)

    by MMaestro (585010) on Wednesday February 15 2006, @04:05PM (#14727130)
    If done properly Vanguard might steal away WoW's long term thunder. Simply put, MMOs are designed for the hardcore. Theres no exception about it. If its too 'casual' geared, hardcore gamers will simply blow through the content too quickly (hitting level 60 in two weeks in WoW anyone?) Any new 'casual' content will simply be scoffed off by players who don't want to start a new character to get 'the full experience' or will be blown through by people who are loaded up with enough uber-gear that then can solo most of it. (Wheres the new mid-level content in WoW?)

    The only problem with current 'hardcore' geared MMOs is the fact that most developers design their systems with the 'ship now, add content later' mentality. This leads to gamers blowing through the early levels so quickly, developers are forced to focus on end-game content and ignore 'mid-game' content. A MMO that can be challenging yet not end-game focused (organizing and planning a 40-man raid is simply frustrating and time consuming) would be an excellent for gamers. Face it, as much as people talk about WoW as 'the best MMO evar!', they generally end their statements with 'I just wish there was more mid-game content.'

    • I don't mind difficult games. What I mind is what people will do to advance...everything from hiring someone to level their character, to purchasing in-game money on the net, to out-and-out cheating. If it were all a level playing field, and everyone had no choice BUT to play by the rules, I think it would be a lot more enjoyable.
          • Because MMOs that -lose- subscribers is considered to be a failure since it means theres no long term staying power. Once players reach X point, players quit causing subscribers to fall. How you reach X point varies (players get tired/frustrated/bored/etc) but a 'successful' MMO either A) makes X point very hard to reach (see: Everquest or Ultima Online) or B) simply replaces players as fast as they are lost (see: Eve Online or FFXI).

            And thats not counting the upcoming competition. The new FFXI expansion,

  • While the game looks interesting, I can't help but think that this doesn't really look like "progress" in the MMO genre. Sure, we have what these developers think is an "ideal" MMORPG, but it looks like it's not much different from what already exists.

    I remember reading something by the guy who does the MMOG charts and him saying how the market for this type of game is somewhat saturated already. Sure, WoW has five million players now, but a lot of its "hardcore" crowd was cannibalized from EQ and other

    • A few steps forward, a few steps back.

      The 'radial' content model and large world is good.
      The corpse runs and XP debt are bad.
      The player housing and horse/saddlebags/flying mounts are good.
      The lack of point-to-point transportation is bad.
      The spell/counterspell/aspect-based attacks is good.
      The level-based paradigm is bad (well, not bad, but yet another MMORG that's unable to break free from the old Chainmaelle wargaming system, circa 1977).
      The player-owned properties, including inns and stores, is good.

      It's l
    • You haven't actually read through what Vanguard is supposed to be in much detail [silkyvenom.com], then, have you.

      It seems cookie cutter at first, but as I was reading through the developers responses to the questions posed, it seems like they wanted to do what has been done before, but *correctly* and with game longevity in mind.

      (And by longevity I don't mean six hour long raids, though they may exist, the devs have stated that they want their game to be primarily group focused. Not so lonely that you're soloing, not

    • No, what we're seeing is potential market slowdown, not a saturation. It's true that WoW did cannibalize from other games in order to get their figures, but prior to WoW launching most people estimated the number of U.S. online gamers to be less than a million. Now WoW has boasted over 1 million subscribers and the other games are still humming along for the most part, including my own game Meridian 59 [meridian59.com]. But, WoW still grew the market overall in North America.

      As for Vanguard, they've always said they were
  • After playing WoW, how many MMO fans are going to want their game to be harder? One of the greatest things about WoW is the relative ease of the game. You DIDN'T have to do corpse runs, there wasn't any notion of experience loss or debt, and there were many ways for instant travel around the world. I look back to my days playing the original EQ and while it was fun, much of it was because it was new. It's not something I'd want to play again, since I'd miss a lot of the things that WoW had. I'm not saying e
    • The problem with this is that making content too easy means the longevity of the game is decreased. Your game can't survive on newbies forever.
      • Hmm, WoW doesn't seem to have that problem. Then again, the game is so enjoyable that most folks don't mind creating a plethora of "alts" (trying out a different character race or class). Then there's also a separate treadmill grind of sorts when you hit the level cap ... for example, raiding to get elite gear, reputation grinding, PvP honor grinding, etc. Those aren't that interesting to me personally, but I'll be one of those who just create multiple alts instead.
        • Hmm, WoW doesn't seem to have that problem. Then again, the game is so enjoyable

          Says you. WoW was my first MMORPG and I was bored stupid at level 35 because of the lack of interaction with other players. Vanguard looks like it will be a breath of fresh air and a step back in the right direction.

          • Says you. WoW was my first MMORPG and I was bored stupid at level 35 because of the lack of interaction with other players. Vanguard looks like it will be a breath of fresh air and a step back in the right direction.

            WoW is certainly not my first MMORPG. If you think Vanguard is a step back in the right direction, go play it and let us know afterwards what you think. :)

            As for player interaction, a lot of it has to come the player him/herself. WoW is very solo-able, so yeah, there can and will be a lot of peo
          • Go give EQ2 a try, they have a downloadable free access.
            I was originally in WoW then switch to EQ2 and found it alot better. Soloing is extermly possible and there are also alot of quests that require groups.
    • Not to sure about the actual flying mounts, as being so high off the ground that you can bypass areas. One of the recent interviews mentioned that to travel to areas would require a boat, player made or wait for the scheduled one. If you could actually fly then that would not be required.
      They also talked about how much of an adventure it will be for everyone as they will long travels between spots, if you could fly and bypass all that how much of an adventure would it be?
      • There will always be those who prefer the challenge that came with Everquest, that I won't deny. But I'd say the overwhelming popularity of WoW over previous MMOs goes to show that the vast majority of players like the easier path.

        MMOs are already one huge treadmill grind. Why make it even longer? I'm of the opinion that games should be fun to play. Make it too frustrating, and I'll find something else to spend my time on. I realize that not everyone shares my playstyle, nor does everyone share yours though

  • A Long Time EQ Player (Score:3, Informative)

    by Puhase (911920) on Wednesday February 15 2006, @04:25PM (#14727351)
    For those of you WoWer's who never went through the Everquest days let me give you some situations where a "harder" game may have consequences:

    Imagine having to spend 10+ hours of grinding to get level 29.

    Imagine doing a 5+ endgame raid where you finally get the boss and you lose the roll on the loot. And so you leave your computer having lost almost a complete level of experience with wipes and not much to show for it. (And you though get groups together was hard)
    Now imagine trying to keep a guild together or just general group tension down when wiping with any party can cost you the exp equivalent of 3-4 hours of mob grinding. Plus a ton of extra time and money in regents from having to summon all your corpses from under the feet of "Baron VonAssbeater".
    I had alot of fun with EQ and a pretty successful guild. But I was also a teenager and this was the best that was available at the time. There is No Way in Hell I would put up with that stuff now.
    • I hate to be negative, but you obviously haven't played "old EQ" lately. You have to WORK at it to lose a level, especially with the super-easy CR methods available today, and widespread 96% rezes via a Clicky Stick (Cleric Epic 1.0. . .which these days, can generally be single-grouped).

      Yes, I still play EQ. Have played it, on and off for 8 years: my first toon was created back when it was still 989 Studios, 3 weeks after EQ shipped. I have a 70 toon in Time now, and am working GoD flags. . .still fun,

  • Has anyone thought about this. Vanguard is aiming at a diffrent group of MMO gamers. Heck look at EVE, they broke 100k accounts recently and average around 23 - 25k people on their server at one time. http://www.eve-online.com/ [eve-online.com] - 100k accounts front page news. They are not aiming to overtake the entire MMO market... just what some people have been wanting for awhile. A MMO thats not too easy but offers a real challenge.

  • EQ vs. WoW (Score:4, Insightful)

    by william_w_bush (817571) on Wednesday February 15 2006, @05:41PM (#14728041)
    Most people here seem to be missing the point.

    EQ/Vanguard are not for people who enjoy playing mmorpgs, like they enjoy playing other games, or for people who play them like glorified IM clients. These games are for the people who actually enjoy the challenge, enjoy the fact that it might take hours to get a reward, and instead of hating the process, count it as an effort towards building a character they see value in.

    This is like saying MGS 2 was too hard because you couldn't play it like Tetris or Solitaire, they are totally different types of games. In WoW, the actual work done by the player is minimal, with low risk, and even unskilled/casual players (which is a huge, HUGE market) can compete evenly with the hardcore players. They are actually different games, and the problem until now has been trying to expand the market with new unskilled players, while still keeping the hardcore tier-1 dragon-slayers with server-uniques which are critical to the game, like the old FoH and LoS guilds were to EQ, setting an inspiring ideal for the rest of the players to follow, part hero-worship, part social-hierarchy.

    My point is they are different audiences completely. Trying to put them in the same game is difficult without either pissing off the casual players, or letting the hardcore players reach the "End". WoW tried, and got an assload of casual players, but most of the hardcore players I know have left, doing cameos whenever a new dragon comes out, and otherwise actually getting on with their lives. The only hardcore players in WoW now are the compulsive "Ok now I want armor X and horse Y so I look cooler" until the next patch comes out with new armor X and horse Y.

    Basically, I miss EQ :(
    • I think Vanguard could theoretically be successful at a niche level -- a hardcore game, by hardcore gamers, for hardcore gamers. Look at any of the PR or the FAQ questions for this game: in response to any concerns about difficulty, Brad McQuaid says "Cry more n00b". Casuals need not apply. This means if I so much as navigate to their website my head might well explode, and I know the process of entering in my credit card information on signup would be much too hardcore for me to handle. But maybe there
  • While there are quite a few gamers out there that long for the sheer daunting task that the orignal EQ was, I am not going to be one of them. I won't be alone, either.

    I really don't mind a challenging game. I enjoy playing games like Half-Life/HL2 without using god mode, for the sheer challenge of succeeding. But MMOs tend to take up a lot more time, and you are dependent on others for the most part. You can't just save and walk away because the kid is throwing up, or the cat is climbing the curtains.
    • As someone who played EQ for 5 years, I know what you're saying. When I started cancelling dates or brushing my gf off until another day, I knew this was a problem. There was a lot of social pressure in game that causes people, including myself, to make commitments they really have no need to keep. While I have no regrets playing as much as a did, I am certainly glad I have moved away from EQ. I played EQ2 and WoW for a month each and I can finally say I'm done with MMO's. They are simply too time cons
  • And let's not forget the "real" vanguard for you old schoolers out there:

    http://www.atariage.com/software_page.html?Softwar eID=1424/ [atariage.com]

    and

    http://coinop.org/g.aspx/100208/Vanguard.html [coinop.org]

  • I love these comments calling people masochists for wanting more challenging gameplay. What about the olympic athletes? Are they masochists for dedicating their lives to a sport, often times taking up far more time/money than any MMO, and for some sports (curling anyone?) which have less worldwide appeal than online gaming does? I'm not trying to equate playing an MMO to an Olympic event, but come on, this lame argument holds no water. Believe it or not, some people actually do enjoy playing difficult, tim
  • Heartless Gamer Comments.

    Lets start with the stand out comment of the article; "The actual game mechanics should be familiar to anyone who's dabbled in MMOs in the past few years."

    - Holy fizzle... Vanguard really is Everquest 2.0 (not to be mistaken with Everquest 2 from SOE). Read that quote again. Translated to human speak the previewers impression was "This is Everquest with better graphics."

    Something about housing that caught my eye; "Once you start racking up a lot of dough, you'll eventually
    • You're not alone. I did the EverQuest thing for about 4-6 months back in 2000 and then gave it up. MMOGs are like a second job. To get anywhere you have to find groups. That means building relationships with other players and a reputation in addition to getting equipment to make you competitive with other potential players.

      The main problem is that if you don't keep up levelling at the same pace as your friends, you fall behind and have to start all over on building up relationships and reputation with a
    • Yuo should try the Elder Scrolls [elderscrolls.com] games (Morrowind and, soon, Oblivion). All the size and scale of a MMORPG world, but completely offline.

      -Eric

    • Marriage and MMORGs don't mix. The fact that EQ comes across as too expensive isn't a good sign either - women tend to eschew fellows lacking $*K/year in free cash flows. Just curious...how did Valentine's Day go for you?
      • And YOU should have a close look at their website [vanguardsoh.com]. Calling WoW a "second generation" MMORPG and having the arrogance to call themselves a "third generation" MMORPG that is improving on WoW's shortcomings (implying that WoW is some sort of "old and inflated" aging dinosaur, no less) sounds like a pretty serious challenge to *me*.

        -Eric

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