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Massives As Your Third Home

Posted by CmdrTaco on Wed Sep 20, 2006 08:11 AM
from the maybe-two-and-a-half dept.
sleepwellmyfriend writes "What is a third place? The first place is your home, the second place is work. Howard Schultz, founder of Starbucks introduced third places as somewhere besides home or work where people can socialize and feel comfortable. Think Cheers. Massive multiplayer online games are third places as defined by their characteristics: neutral ground, leveler (no not that kind), conversation, accessibility, regulars, low profile, playful mood, and "home away from home". Online games also contain social capital, which like financial capital, can be acquired and spent, but for social gains instead of financial gains. In a social relationship sense, bridging provides breadth (diverse information and resources) while bonding provides depth (comfort and advice). In online games, players come from a diverse background so they are usually bridging social capital but bonding can occur for long time players."
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  • True for Me (Score:5, Interesting)

    by eldavojohn (898314) * <my/.username@@@gmail.com> on Wednesday September 20 2006, @08:13AM (#16145312) Homepage Journal
    Masive multiplayer online games are third places as defined by their characteristics: neutral ground, leveler (no not that kind), conversation, accessibility, regulars, low profile, playful mood, and "home away from home".
    I know this is going to sound pretty cheesy and merely anecdotal but I submit to you my experience that MMOs can function third home. I moved half way across the US two years ago. It was the only time I've ever moved in my life and the only time I've been completely out of place knowing no one. Now, at the time, I only played Star Wars Galaxies and had a large house near Coronet that many people visited frequently to buy stuff from me. I was in a tightly knit guild of 10 people with a guild hall that we spent a lot of time decorating.

    When I first moved, I spent a lot of time in game talking to my old friends and generally just hanging out in game. I spent a lot of time in the house on Corellia. You might argue that it was detrimental to me meeting new people in my new surroundings and naturally adjusting but, honestly, I would have spent the time reading books if I hadn't had an SWG account. I guess that's why it was like pulling teeth when the CU hit and all my friends stopped playing. Oh well, at least I had enough time to meet new people while still having fun with old friends.
    • by crazyjeremy (857410) * on Wednesday September 20 2006, @08:17AM (#16145337) Homepage Journal
      and had a large house near Coronet that many people visited frequently to buy stuff from me
      Drug dealer?
        • I think the author got the 'places' mixed up?

          1st place - Bar

          2nd place - What's her names house, the one you met at the bar.

          3rd place - Home (You gotta get a change of clothes periodically...

          4th place - Oh yeah, work...gotta do that to pay for the 1st three

        • "NERD!"

                -Homer (Simpson)
      • That certainly explains why your posts (and the political views you've posted about) seem to have an air of intolerance and inexperience--you haven't particularly seen or experienced a whole lot of the world.

        Well, that's a very large assumption and a slap in the face.

        I try to be as open minded as possible (see sig). I grew up on a farm in the middle of nowhere Minnesota and have severely lacked the funds to ever travel anywhere -- though I like to think that the books I've read from libraries have m

        • by steveo777 (183629) on Wednesday September 20 2006, @10:13AM (#16146148) Homepage Journal
          That's why I almost never read/respond to AC comments. I Keep them at a -3 so that most of them are invisible unless modded very high. With the new comment system, they don't stay as filtered, but it's easier to see when an AC has something good to say from time to time.

          Just want to let you know that I'm there with you. I'm from the same "blue" state, though my views tend to be conservative, and I am a Christian. But I have friends that are both Christian conservatives and embrace-everything bleeding liberals. All I can say is that if someone shouts in your face about not being open minded, but won't listen to you, forget 'em. I run into it all the time... people who think they'd do me a service by telling me my faith is a sham but won't even take the time to listen to why I believe it. Most of the time they haven't actually read a Bible passage, in essence these particular people don't even know what they're talking about or refusing to believe. Shake the dust off your feet and let them wallow in whatever their problems are. I'll listen to you if you're willing to listen to me. I'll even let you go first. My bleeding liberal friends have had this to say about me. "For a Republican and a Christian, he's pretty open-minded."

          I don't want to start a religion flame war, but it's the best example I can give. AC's aren't typically worth responding to. And neither are people who don't care to listen.

          • If it maks ya feel any better, I am a bleeding liberal who is always happy to hear anyone's religious views. Just because it is what they believe and helps them get through life, so it at least deserves my outward respect. (Even if it is kooky shit, like my sister with the crystals...)
          • In the area where the OP likely lives, it is more tolerant thn you think. I used to live three blocks from the Pentagon and bought a prized hookah from a shop in the same area. Either a fresh wind is blowing through Arlington, or the brass doesn't poke their head into every shop in Crystal City :)

            Now as for the rest of the state...
  • Pub? (Score:3, Funny)

    by pryonic (938155) on Wednesday September 20 2006, @08:16AM (#16145334)
    My first, second and third place is the pub, nuff said.
    • Re:Pub? (Score:5, Interesting)

      by kfg (145172) * on Wednesday September 20 2006, @08:21AM (#16145367)
      "Good friends, gather 'round and I'll tell you a tale;
      It's a story well-known to all lovers of ale;
      For the old English pub, once a man's second home,
      Has been decked out, by brewers, in plastic and chrome.

      Oh, what has become of the old Rose and Crown,
      The Ship, the King's Arms, and the World Upside-Down?
      For oak, brass and leather and a pint of the best
      Fade away like the sun as it sinks in the west.

      The old oaken bar where the pumps filled your glass
      Gives way to formica and tanks full of gas;
      And the landlord behind, once a man of good cheer. . .

      Has been replaced by some child who will just mumble the price as he hands you your . . .latte."

      With apologies to Ian Robb.

      Howard Shultz brought us nothing but another corporate chain. The "third" place predates the "first."

      KFG
      • "Making your way in the world today takes everything you've got.
        Taking a break from all your worries, sure would help a lot.

        Wouldn't you like to get away?

        Sometimes you want to go

        Where everybody knows your name,
        and they're always glad you came.
        You wanna be where you can see,
        our troubles are all the same
        You wanna be where everybody knows
        Your name.

        You wanna go where people know,
        people are all the same,
        You wanna go where everybody knows
        your name."
          • Ah! That is precisly the clarification I was seeking! It is the unfortunate nature of the medium that I could not know with any certainty which meaning you had intended for predate.

            As an interesting point and a fun curiousity of English: predate predates predate by a little more than 400 years! The hunted meaning comes from c. 1460 via latin: prædationem. The latinesque contraction did not appear until 1864.
  • Math (Score:5, Funny)

    by Rob T Firefly (844560) on Wednesday September 20 2006, @08:19AM (#16145349) Homepage Journal
    So if Second Life is your Third Home, does that work out to 2/3s of a homelife?
  • Are you sure? I always let it slip that "I'm going home" when I'm headed to work.
  • by tont0r (868535) on Wednesday September 20 2006, @08:28AM (#16145396)
    So you have your 'home' time. Then you have your work time (for real world people, this is 40+ hours a week). And then you want to toss in a '3rd place' time? How much time do you have left?

    I mean, sure its great when you are 16 and your 'home time' will consist of playing sports with some kids down the street or watching tv (or video games in this case), your 'work time' is at max 15-20 hours a week, then you have all the time in the world to play an mmo. No need to worry about cleaning or making dinner. Mom has that covered.

    But if you arent 16, you work 40+ hours a week, have to come home and make dinner (or go run to the store first to buy it),clean, relax for a bit, toss in a significant other or a child or two, and your mmo time is nearing zero.

    We have enough busy things in this world to toss in a 'Third world'.

    • I completely hear you there! For starters, I think this "3rd. place" concept is flawed when applied to massively multiplayer online games, because you're generally still playing them in the "1st. place" - your house or apartment!

      The reason places like the "corner bar" (a la "Cheers") are popular with some people is just as much the fact that it gets them out of the house (and someplace *other* than work) as it is the "social interaction" factor.

      It's really about doing something that breaks up your routine,
      • by bigbigbison (104532) on Wednesday September 20 2006, @09:05AM (#16145606) Homepage
        I think you are right, up to a point. A lot of the thinking about "thrid spaces" that goes on with new media is in some ways reflective of the "Bowling Alone" theory as espouced in the book of the same name. In that book, the author says that we (particualrly Americans) used to be much more active in the public sphere with civic groups and, as the title suggests, bowling leagues.
        So a lot of this is attempting to counter that saying that while people may not physically leave the house, they still do have social lives that do not involve work.
        So while it is true that one may not leave the house while playing a mmorpg, but one does interact with other people and get some sence of escape from work and home.
        I'm not sure why this article appeared on slashdot, particularly. The idea of muds and moos as third spaces is nearly as old as muds and moos themselves. Go to scholar.google and search for "new media" and "third space" and tons of articles turn up.

    • Hi.

      I'm 25, I work 40 hours a week. I'm married and have a 2 year old.

      My day consists of: drag self out of bed, do best to wake up (not a morning person - I don't mind my job, I just mind waking up). Go to work. Leave work, pick kid up from daycare. Come home, put on Sesame Street eps from the Tivo, make dinner (I love to cook). Wife comes home around 6-7pm, we eat dinner. Kid gets a bath at around 7:45ish, goes to bed at 8:30.

      After 8:30, I have until about 11:30 or 12:00 until I crawl in bed, so I ha
    • WorkTime - HomeTime ~= ThirdWorldTime
    • "Lack" of freetime doesn't seem to keep people from watching TV. I suppose if don't watch much/any then you would probably have several hours a week to spend on MMORPGs. It's just a choice of how you entertain yourself during your freetime since most people don't work/do necessities for every waking hour of every day.
  • I'm pretty sure that if you spend enough time to earn in-game rewards, you're not gaining "socially"... but if you are, online gaming sure has come a long way since I last played!
  • The study I have set up at home is a fantastic hermit-cave for me, and while I'm there I'm able to work, study, play, socialise and all those other things. The only things I don't get in there are:

    1. Face-to-face contact
    2. Exercise
    I think the internet in general has such a high impact on and penetration into those "1st & 2nd places" (at least, for the sort of people likely to be reading this post) that the distinctions are becoming a lot more blurred. Hell, working-from-home or at least taking-it-hom

    • Re: (Score:2, Insightful)

      On another note: something I find I do altogether too often in social situations (pubs, parties etc) is put on a "mask", a persona that makes me less vulnerable. In MMORPGs the implicit existence of a mask often means that people can be more "themselves" than they would otherwise. Maybe that's why it's such a good place for some people to relax and interact. Could be that it's doing wonders for the social skills of some people...

      People when in public, must, by needs of society, be... well, inhibited by c
    • On another note: something I find I do altogether too often in social situations (pubs, parties etc) is put on a "mask", a persona that makes me less vulnerable. In MMORPGs the implicit existence of a mask often means that people can be more "themselves" than they would otherwise. Maybe that's why it's such a good place for some people to relax and interact. Could be that it's doing wonders for the social skills of some people...

      That's funny. In actual social situations I'm usually very outgoing and friend
    • I have a home office from which I work full-time. So my "first place" and my "second place" are the same. I don't have a "third place" since I am not a gamer nor a barfly.

      Should I just ask my mom to bring me down a glass of lemonade and a sandwich?
  • Are you high? Ask your parents about soda shops, bowling alleys, drive-ins, etc. Then, go read Bowling Alone [amazon.com] by Robert Putnam - it's a great look at what he calls the collapse of the American community, because of a lack of these "third places". Good read.
    • Re: (Score:2, Funny)

      Are you high?

      No, he's just a young example of how far the American community has fallen.

      KFG
  • aren't you in your home (for most people) when you're in an mmo? is it possible for the third to be a kind of subset of the first?
  • Great, Good Places (Score:3, Informative)

    by pkalkul (450979) on Wednesday September 20 2006, @08:38AM (#16145446)
    The source of the theory of "third places" is Roy Oldenberg's book The Great Good Place: Cafes, Coffee Shops, Bookstores, Bars, Hair Salons, and Other Hangouts at the Heart of a Community, which has been around for quite some time. Sherry Turkle, in her Life on the Screen, also references Oldenberg. Credit where credit is due. Here is a nice summary [pps.org] of Oldenberg's work.
  • Howard Schultz, founder of Starbucks introduced third places as somewhere besides home or work where people can socialize and feel comfortable.

    Eh? i have heard of thrid places before but never this howard schultz guy. i think the concept of third places it attributed to ray oldenburg. [wikipedia.org] though the practice has been around a lot longer. video game related link [ttu.edu]

  • Home Depot (Score:5, Funny)

    by dpbrown (596946) on Wednesday September 20 2006, @09:42AM (#16145847)
    My third place is Home Depot because my first place needs work and my second place doesn't pay me enough to convince someone else to make my first place their second place.
  • by MaWeiTao (908546) on Wednesday September 20 2006, @10:07AM (#16146089)
    This is inevitably going to come off as flamebait to some, but I think it has to be said...

    If people but as much effort into constructive pursuits as they put into these games they couldn't help but be very successful. And I don't think there's a real middle ground where you can truly do well and continue to maintain what is essentially a second career within these games.

    This is coming from someone who's played a few MMOs... I never invested even a fraction of the time some have put into these games but I still think it was too much time wasted. I certainly wont be making the mistake again.
    • Except that in an MMO your "second career", as you say, can be picked up and left alone at will. besides, being successful IRL can bring with it more headaches and annoyances than extra benefits.
  • Someone else made a nice comment, and to the point, Starbucks is by no stretch of any imagination inventor of anything other than a brand name. A third place has been part of our lives for quite some time. Think outside sports, recreational activities (not family vacations), anything that you do routinely away from home or work. For me, it was life at the firedepartment, or talking in IRC, or rugby, or skating, or any number of things I did away from home or work. Social status (real) was achieved throu
  • by barfy (256323) on Wednesday September 20 2006, @10:58AM (#16146541)
    Both are from the Pacific NW. But "A Third Place" is the mantra of Mr Ron Shea not Howard Schultz. He is the owner developer of Crossroads mall, Lake Forest Mall, and importantly Third Place Books and he is the current owner of the Honey Bear Bakery (which lead seattle in the slice of cake and a coffee movement), which no longer exists in its original location.

    Third Place describes the environment that he has tried to create at the Malls and the Third Place Books in the old PCC in Seattle. They have large central courts that are utilized by the general puplic, gaming communities (he likes chess it would appear), community theater and concerts. Along with a variety of food.

    His idea is creating the "Third Place" that you go to hang out. After work and home.

    He has been moderately successful, but not as univerally accepted as you may think. I think he is right that there exists the concept of third places, but alot of them exist spontaneously, (like Cheers) and only up to a size where everyone knows your name. And they aren't as successful larger than that. But the concept is successful enough, and they are very pleasent places to visit.

  • All I can think of this analogy is of the alcoholic who always goes to the bar (Norm being a prime example). All he does all day is drink, if he works, he drinks after work, he's addicted and he knows nothing else. Unless it happens in that bar, Norm really doesn't know much about it.

    Unfortunately MMORPGs are no different we have the "hermit" who all he does is play the game til he dies, he's stuck in his "home", he constantly thinks about it, to be away from it too long is painful.

    Just because we try to
    • "Leveler: An individual's rank and status in society are not significant. As in the culture of early video game arcades, "It didn't matter what you drove to the arcade. If you sucked at Asteroids, you just sucked." Players on online games use a separate avatar unrelated to their real life person, and social status is rarely invoked."

      In this case, "Leveler" has NOTHING to do with leveling up. RTFA.
    • They did, and I always found that pretty confusing. For quite some time I thought they wanted to claim third place in the console race - behind the Xbox and the Cube. Weirdos.

      Over here in Europe, most people aren't familiar with the concept of "the third place" and probably didn't get the slogan.

    • by kin_korn_karn (466864) on Wednesday September 20 2006, @08:41AM (#16145458) Homepage
      How do you fit your pretentiousness in the kayak?

        • Re: (Score:2, Insightful)

          Truly you are an inspiration to us all sir,

          Not only do you do physical activity but you manage to do it with your head firmly up your own ass

          Also based on the fact you have decided to post your comment on a website specifically for geeks shows that despite your physical prowess, you are not particularly bright.

          I guess people who read books recreationally are the same? Or avid chess players?
        • There can only be two types of people that spend their recreational time playing MMORPGs: the malnurished, and the morbidly obese.

          Try doing something that involves physical activity for once. It's not pretentious. It's a fun and actually normal activity as opposed to slowly killing yourself over increasing some useless number another few points.


          Paddling a kayak or chasing a hockey puck around a sheet of ice accomplish exactly as much in the end as playing an MMORPG. ie, absolutely nothing.

          You can get an ad
        • Try doing something that involves physical activity for once. It's not pretentious. It's a fun and actually normal activity as opposed to slowly killing yourself over increasing some useless number another few points.

          Physical activity is not pretentious. Just your attitude on stereotyping ppl that play mmos. Oh, and GP's attitude as well - that is if you are not the same person trying to dodge the monsoon of karma coming your way. Good call posting as AC.

    • There is nothing in WoW that even closely relates to Cheers. It is more like a microcosm of real life, right down to the fact that you have materialism is the dominating force in keeping people's noses to the grindstone.

      There are other MMORPGs than just WoW.

      I played Ultima Online for a good while (hence my nick). I'd say that UO itself isn't a 3rd place, but it has lots of 3rd places in it. Some in the form of a virtual version of a real 3rd place such as a bar; in other cases it might be a guildhous

    • Ever heard the "Cloud Song" recording? Rarely serious? Please if you haven't heard it - look it up.
    • Yeah -- that's really been my experience with online multiplayer games -- rarely are players overly serious about game matters. Seems to me the long-time players that the article claims are the real core of the community tend to be some of the *most* serious players i've ever encountered.

      That hasn't been my experience. Sure, they expect you not to be an idiot and to be able to play your character well, but in matters that don't result in raid wipes they do joke around a lot most of the time.