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'Columbine RPG' Creator Discusses the Dawson Shooting

Posted by Zonk on Wed Sep 20, 2006 03:23 PM
from the touchy-culture dept.
Entertainment Games
Back in May, Brian Crecente of Kotaku and the Rocky Mountain News had a chat with the maker of the 'Columbine RPG'. Today, he talks again with game-maker Danny LeDonne about possible connections between his game and the Dawson shooting. From the article: "My very first reaction, frankly, was to head to my toilet bowl and throw up. I knew what was in the works and I knew the next week would be spent keeping my head above water while the press tried to bury me with guilt-laden questions and implications of complicity in murder. I also knew that this was no time to fold or get weak-kneed. I made a game. I believed in it. Now it was time to defend it. No one would do that except me."
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story

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  • Games recreating historical events (Score:5, Insightful)

    by CastrTroy (595695) on Wednesday September 20 2006, @03:29PM (#16148843) Homepage
    I imagine this could happen to anybody who develops games based on historical events, than enact violence. I'm sure there's WWII games where you played on the German side. There's always video games where you play the bad guy. He shouldn't feel guilty because someone who enjoyed playing his game was also crazy. Maybe it's what pushed him over the edge, maybe it's not. I highly suspect that this kid was really messed up even before played the game.

    • Re: (Score:2, Insightful)

      by MrTester (860336)
      I agree. I think the Columbine RPG is completely tastless and would never touch it even though I love games.
      However, I support the developers right to create trash and the consumers right to buy it. On top of that, not for a second do I think that the game is what caused someone to go and act out. It like saying that allowing people to drive teaches them to be drunk drivers. Ok, its not a perfect annalogy, but Im in a hurry. Sue me.

    • Re:Games recreating historical events (Score:4, Insightful)

      by Das Modell (969371) on Wednesday September 20 2006, @03:50PM (#16148997)
      This is a non-issue. The game's designer is in no way responsible for what some whackjob does. No point in even discussing about it.

    • Re:Games recreating historical events (Score:4, Interesting)

      by kabocox (199019) on Wednesday September 20 2006, @04:02PM (#16149091)
      I imagine this could happen to anybody who develops games based on historical events, than enact violence. I'm sure there's WWII games where you played on the German side. There's always video games where you play the bad guy. He shouldn't feel guilty because someone who enjoyed playing his game was also crazy. Maybe it's what pushed him over the edge, maybe it's not. I highly suspect that this kid was really messed up even before played the game.

      Let's be honest: We don't have accurate games. I love WWII games as much as the next guy, but I don't recall a single one where you were an SS officer incharge or part of running a Nazi death camp. I recall some of Japanese airplane games of WWII of them bombing Pearl Harbor. Any air plane bombing game should be fairly ok. We don't have war sims that show what really happened when your army captured an enemies city/village/town. We have the burning and occasionally we do have looting in games. I have, yet to see Civ, Age of Empires or any other game do the full rape, pillage, and burn rountine. Let's face it; our games are much cleaner than they could be. I personally don't like shooters because I'm not good at them. They aren't really meant to have a story other than hey I need a somewhat morally good excuse to shoot everyone in front me. I'd say games like Wolf3D and Doom where you are shooting genetically modified humans, or aliens/demons gave the player moral absolution from slaughtering everything in their path. If I picked up a school shooter and it was modded to use us my classmates from highschool and the teachers, I'd have a very difficult time just randomly shooting people that pissed me off before the police came and gave me a head shoot. That game wouldn't be very fun for me. Now a game where I get to play with the drill team or cheerleaders or just Sim Drill Team with lots of bouncy 15-18 year old girls I could see outselling Mario. I may have had off days, but I never had that kind of downward spiral or wanted to go through it. Now, I could see a really well done RPG with extensive plot and background with 50-60 hours of play and the climax ending is the player breaking killing relatively random main or supporting characters. Actually, the more that I think about it the more that it seems like really good RPG material if done right. The problem is every RPG that I've played has some from of leveling and I don't see how a school shooting based RPG would have that phase. A mainly social interaction RPG with your character breaking and going crazy does sound like an interesting twist.

      • The problem is every RPG that I've played has some from of leveling and I don't see how a school shooting based RPG would have that phase.

        You start by clobbering your fellow kindergardeners over the head with wooden blocks & then work your way up from there.

        Kindergarden: wooden blocks
        Lower School: jab them to death with safety scissors
        Middle School: dodge ball to the head
        High School: 12345 is the combo for the gun safe
        College: take chem 101 & start blowing things up
        Grad School: alcohol poisoning
        Midd

      • I've played Battlefield: 1942, and the game has "names" of each soldier.

        It is rather disturbing to be aiming at someone with a name.

      • Re: (Score:3, Insightful)

        by ultranova (717540)

        I love WWII games as much as the next guy, but I don't recall a single one where you were an SS officer incharge or part of running a Nazi death camp.

        Well, what store would carry it ? Besides, you can allready turn Sims into death camp simulation if you wish, so there's no need of it...

        We don't have war sims that show what really happened when your army captured an enemies city/village/town. We have the burning and occasionally we do have looting in games. I have, yet to see Civ, Age of Empires or an

      • Re: (Score:3, Informative)

        by mgabrys_sf (951552)
        Here's one with a link:

        http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/KZ_manager [wikipedia.org]

        There was one back in the 80s - so that would be two games. At least.

    • Re: (Score:3, Insightful)

      by westlake (615356)
      I'm sure there's WWII games where you played on the German side.

      Name one. Just one.

      More importantly, name one where you are role-playing the Gestapo interrogator or the SS officer in the Death Camps.
      "Ilsa: She Wolf of the SS" does not count.

      There's always video games where you play the bad guy.

      Usually at some "safe" psychological distance from your own situation. The closer you get to reality the more deeply you enter into territory where a clinical psychiatrist using role-playing techniques would be v

      • Re: (Score:3, Insightful)

        by EmperorKagato (689705) *
        Have you played the game? Have you bothered to see the screenshots?

        We expect a psychoactive drug to be tested for safety before it is sold. When something appears to have gone seriously wrong we expect the product to be taken off then shelves until the problem is fixed.

        What's wrong with the game? Is it buggy? Do you get stuck in certain areas? Does it cause your computer to restart?

        Name one. Just one. (WWII German side games)
        Battle Field

        More importantly, name one where you are role-playing the

      • Re: (Score:3, Informative)

        by werewolf1031 (869837)

        I'm sure there's WWII games where you played on the German side.

        Name one. Just one.

        Panzer General, dammit! My God, how young ARE you people that you've forgotten one of the most highly praised (and damned entertaining) WWII games of the early 90's? And IIRC, if you executed your strategy well, you even had a chance to invade Washington DC by war's end. If that doesn't qualify to be among "WWII games where you played on the German side" then nothing does.

      • You don't see a WWII "extermination camp simulator" do you?

        They made one for the NES. It's called Deadly Towers.
      • Over the years I've played many a WWII flight sim that's put me in the seat of planes from both sides of the conflict.

      • Re:Don't think So. (Score:5, Funny)

        by Gulthek (12570) on Wednesday September 20 2006, @04:11PM (#16149201) Homepage Journal
        You don't see a WWII "extermination camp simulator" do you?

        Whoa, good idea. I see that fitting right into the "Tycoon" style of gaming.

      • Re:Don't think So. (Score:4, Informative)

        by bunions (970377) on Wednesday September 20 2006, @04:20PM (#16149292)
        > Columbine game involves shooting unarmed children.

        Carmageddon involves running over unarmed children, senior citizens and cheerleaders.

        I mean, I know it's not exactly a historical simulation, I'm just sayin'.
      • IIRC I remember seeing a couple screenshots of a concentration camp administrator game in an Amiga magazine once, years ago. It was supposedly made by some German nazi wannabe teens.

        I'm sure that as more and more people have easier and easier game-making tools, other people of a similar bent have written similar games on newer platforms.

        Obviously these things aren't going to be for-profit big-budget games. But they exist.

        It sounds like this particular game is not really about glorifying the Columbine shooti

        • Re:Don't think So. (Score:4, Interesting)

          by sumdumass (711423) on Thursday September 21 2006, @03:24AM (#16151987) Journal
          It sounds like this particular game is not really about glorifying the Columbine shootings. I dunno, I haven't played it.
          I played the game. It is of old school doom like with worse 2d graphics. Basicaly, you have to go thru the motions of the two dimshits involved and can do a killing spree of anything that moves. At some point you triger the part were they kill themsleves and you end up in hell. The problemy then is that your a defensless little bitch in hell with deamons and doom like creatures comming at you. I'm not a real serious gamer or anything so i couldn't make it past the hell part (if you can).

          In the middle, after certain events, it shows pictures of what really happened with a little narative on what was going on. It didn't glorify any of it but it didn't directly chastize it either. When they kill themselves, it shows the actual mutilated dead eric and dillon and the only thing i could think of was "ouch, hope that never happens to me". Then a sickening/saddening feeling came over me. Once the hell part started i was back to normal but loosing. Dunno if it is because of the death scene or because i suck at games and hell is well, hell to play.

          All in all, if i had to say this game has a theme, it is look at these asstards doing something stupid for the wrong reasons and they ended up worse then they were. Someone else might have taken something else away from the game. I don't know. I would suggest playing it if your only reason not to play is the link to a hanus crime. It explains a lot about what happened, Removes a lot of the "billy the kid" or "the matric" style romance some people have spinned on it. Even for the crappyness of the gameplay and graphics, it is a good game.

          When i was in school, sometimes I would day dream about doing simular stuff(wondering what would happen). It was common in that time for kids to have guns (in my area) and I was in the highschool skeet and trap shooting club so i had them in my locker part of the time. I would say that quite a few of us were armed at some point in time durrign school and we never had an incident like columbine. We did have an accidental discaege once. The shotgun was pointed in a safe direction and it didn't hit anything. It happened when someone steped into the box and found a bee's nest. He jumped, causing the gun to go off, got stung and droped the gun on hid toe (not neccisarly in that order)

          I'm glad that thinking about what it would be like is about as far as it ever got with me. BTW, two years after my senior year, they took the "gun clubs" out of the school and then several years later they had some gun and drug free zone thing. "Gun clubs" Should be back in school if nothing else but to teach kids these things aren't toys and how to handle them responcibly. We had a trap and skeet club and a targeting club. Even if the schools hold onto the weapons untill needed.

      • Re: (Score:2, Insightful)

        by Broken scope (973885)
        There is stupidity and the there is ignorance. I seriously doubt you have actually played the game or even tried to understand the basis behind its creation.

      • Re:Don't think So. (Score:4, Insightful)

        by morie (227571) on Thursday September 21 2006, @03:49AM (#16152060) Homepage
        You don't see a WWII "extermination camp simulator" do you?

        http://www.radio.cz/en/article/82899 [radio.cz]

        almost the same thing
  • Shouldn't they blame the music of GWAR for the shootings, too?

    Happy Death-Day to Columbine!
    Let's make the world an Oklahoma City, fine.
    Wacky-Waco Happy Death Day, babies that were burned
    The Wheel has turned!

    Why can't society just accept that some (all?) humans are prone to violence, and that video games aren't murder simulators that teach you how to shoot a gun. Society as a whole is just teaching irresponsibility: let's just blame someone else, my son/daughter would never do that, it must've been
  • This is by far the best interview I've seen on the subject, although I'm sure I missed some. He really represents himself well here. As a humorous aside, reading the interview made me glad I didn't play the game - specifically because it contains "maudlin smashing pumpkin midis" and if I had to sit there and listen to that I might really kill someone.

  • What a creep (Score:3, Interesting)

    by Otter (3800) on Wednesday September 20 2006, @03:39PM (#16148914) Journal
    I doubt there's the slightest possibility that the shooting wouldn't have happened with or without this guy's game but -- ughh, what a self-absorbed, pompous, whiny creep he is. Somebody plays his game and then goes and shoots up his school, and all Danny LeDonne can do is cry about how hard this has made life for Danny LeDonne and spray about what a hero he is.

  • The wonders of Google targeted advertising (Score:5, Funny)

    by arivanov (12034) on Wednesday September 20 2006, @03:40PM (#16148920) Homepage
    The ad on slashdot for this article shows some incoming release from the Grand Theft Auto franchise for PSP. So we may not match violence to computer games and vice versa but google ads (or whatever broker Slashdot uses today) surely do. Quite entertaining actually.
    • So we may not match violence to computer games and vice versa but google ads (or whatever broker Slashdot uses today) surely do

      Or perhaps ads are simply targeted within each Slashdot news section?

    • You mean you actually see the ads?... you really need Adblock

  • "But is it art?" (Score:3, Funny)

    by Captain Sarcastic (109765) * on Wednesday September 20 2006, @04:47PM (#16149526)
    I read the interview, and the primary thrust of the questions and answers seemed to be:


    Q: Do you think you'll get in trouble for your game?
    A: I shouldn't - it's art, for crying out loud!


    Now, I don't think tastelessness is criminal. Otherwise, the creators of the HTML "Blink" tag would've been behind bars some time back. I also think that the author's cries of "Nobody understands why I made this game" necessarily makes him an artist.

    Therefore, I can only say that if anyone is trying to blame him for the Dawson shooting, they are making a very long and very awkward reach for a suitable scapegoat.
    • This killer, like nearly 100% of murderes has been exposed to the toxic chemical Di-hydrogen monoxide. Why can't we get this stuff banned?
      Seriously, Cart=Game Killer=Horse, a person contemplating or depressed or distressed enough to be ready for the murderous rampage seems very likely to give the Columbine game a try, I'll be he saw the movie "heathers" at some point in his life, hell why not blame Howard Stern? He probably listened to Howard at least once, let's put him in prison for this attrocity along

  • Play the goddamned game! (Score:5, Informative)

    by Frogbert (589961) <frogbert.gmail@com> on Wednesday September 20 2006, @05:46PM (#16149977)
    There have been many people above me claiming that the game is in bad taste and that its creator is a dick. Please before you go shooting your mouth off please download and actually play the game through. It is not only a work of satire, its an obvious one at that.

    It's not as blatent as Southpark's satire typically is, but it is there and anyone over the age of 13 should be able to see it.

    I'd liken it to Gullivers Travels, you read that book when you are young and think, "hmm great story". A few years later you come away thinking "Perhaps that book was about England".
    • Which is really weird, because I saw it on a couple US networks (i'm assuming your in the US). NBC had it on the news. US Networks usually jump on news like this. Of course your going to correct me and tell me that you live in Montreal, which would be kind of sad.

    • Re:I still think it's bad taste. (Score:5, Insightful)

      by voice_of_all_reason (926702) on Wednesday September 20 2006, @03:58PM (#16149059)
      Playing the Columbine RPG, any such sentiment would be creepy and morally wrong. "Yeah! That'll teach those innocent students!" I don't know the actual plot of the game, but I can't imagine it is as detached as playing a gangster, soldier or pilot etc.

      Ah, you subscribe to the "if you think it, you did it" system of morality. Does it work the other way around? If I daydream about helping out in a soup kitchen or giving clothes to the salvation army it earns me brownie points with my local magic sky diety?
      • 5 is just not enough points for a post that good.

      • Ah, you subscribe to the "if you think it, you did it" system of morality. Does it work the other way around? If I daydream about helping out in a soup kitchen or giving clothes to the salvation army it earns me brownie points with my local magic sky diety?

        Maybe it does. If it points you in the right direction. But you are evading the issue. Super Columbine Massacre RPG! became more than a daydream for the shooter. It became an obsession.

        It is not out of bounds to ask what there is in the social context

          • So you're saying that daydreaming about working in a soup kitchen isn't enough to make you do good, you have to play a game about working in a soup kitchen in order to raise your community service meter, to do good?

            No, that's not doing good, that's still just playing around. Similarly, if you play violent games and leave it at that, then no problem. But if you repeatedly play games that showcase or glorify actual violence, with real people and events, especially people/events close to you, it will affect

      • How about c) you read about it on /., play it for a bit, find it a poorly written but certainly controversial game, and pass on because you don't have any strong feelings about it?

    • Re:My own game (Score:5, Informative)

      by Enoxice (993945) on Wednesday September 20 2006, @04:24PM (#16149322) Journal
      Have you played the game? Have you seen screenshots of the game? It is in no way, other than in a literal sense, a graphic presentation of murder. For God's sake, it looks like Pokemon! And from what I hear, it really does examine the event, and not just tosses you in and says "kill as many people as you can for no reason muahahahaha!"

    • Re:The shooters are victims too! (Score:5, Interesting)

      by Turn-X Alphonse (789240) on Wednesday September 20 2006, @04:43PM (#16149493) Journal
      My girlfriend was in that school shooting. What right did that guy have to make her think she was going to die and run for her life?

      Just because some asshole picks on you, don't mean you go and put the fear of god in thousands of people. Maybe some people will mod you up, but you're a patheticly immoral person if you think it's okay to "fight back" against innocent people. Guns don't solve any problem when in the hands of the general public, they cause problems like these. If you have a problem with a bully at a COLLEGE you get the police involved and they fix it, you don't go and shoot 20 people while making the rest have a terrible memory for the rest of their life!

      Side note : My girlfriends fine, she's getting over it and the college is giving a lot of support to all the students.

      • Re:The shooters are victims too! (Score:5, Insightful)

        by jythie (914043) on Wednesday September 20 2006, @05:11PM (#16149749)
        *sigh* Look, calling someone patheticly immoral does you no good. People like to simplify stuff like this, but it isn't so. The type of mentality and situation that result in people loosing it and going on a killing spree are NOT simple, and often much of the rage they feel has some real source. It does not simply come from nowhere, and the victims of the shooting did have a hand in creating the situation. When things get bad enough that you start blaming the structure as a whole, people who support and benifit from the system that is generating the abuse feel like ligit targets. They do not appear innocent, they feel at worst bystandards that let things get that bad. This is esp true when it is popular, protected people doing the abusing, since it is the general student population who GIVE them that power and then refuse to take it away. Does that make going postal the right solution? No, it doesn't. Not even remotely. (though your 'bring in the police' example is worrying since often in bullying, esp at the high school level, authority figures will generally not help you, and often dump even more blame on the victim with 'well, if you were normal then everyone would like you' BS, which amplifies the problem. in college unless it is a physical threat, they will just ignore you or, if they are on-campus police, might act much like the HS level authorities) But I find it equaly disturbing that instead of addressing the structural problems that lead to this, people just pull out the 'it was just one sick person' card as if that explains everything away and absolves everyone who had a hand, however minor it was, in the events leading up to it. It lets us protect the image of our darling children and friends (or any ingroup) because they 'can do no wrong' and externalize our problems to 'others' and continue to blame whatever one can as long as it never circles back. If we want to talk relative girlfriends. Mine went through significant amounts of 'outsider' abuse in both highschool and college (ended up snapping in college) and has had terrible memories and nightmares about that ever since too. And for every person who will have to live through the terror of _ONE_ day and it's memories, there are probably dozens of people who have to remember thousands of days of abuse and fear, and no one cares. They don't get support from their college, or other students, they usually either collapse mentally, kill themselves, or try to kill others. But in general few really care what happens to them and all the stuff that caused it is not considered immoral at all. They are just 'weak' or 'sick' people.

        • Re: (Score:3, Informative)

          by mj_sklar (888539)
          Not to nitpick, but your, and the GP's posts seem to presume that the shooter was a student at Dawson. The shooter was not [wikipedia.org], in fact, a student at this school, so the argument that he may have been a victim of bullying isn't all that valid. He was 25, and a graduate of a different school; he never attended the college where he opened fire.

        • Re: (Score:2, Insightful)

          by Anonymous Coward
          In this particular case, the shooter was a sociopath - no, make that a misanthrope. He hated the world, so some people in the world hated him back. He deserved that; he asked for that.

          Not only that, he was 25 years old and a dropout. He had been out of school for years. He had plenty of time to go into therapy and buy scented candles to make himself feel better.

          Face it: everyone, and I mean everyone, has shitty days in school, and feels like they are an outsider. Everyone. Learning how to deal with the peop

          • Re: (Score:3, Interesting)

            by gasaraki (262206)
            If only the psychiatric profession had as much insight as you! We could just tell people to "get over it" and everything would be fine. Suffered years of psychological and physical abuse? Get over it! Shot in the leg? Get ov... oh wait, sorry, you're a victim.
      • Hey guy, did you even read the GP? He said that the actions were wrong, but people that should stand up for themselves. He's exactly right, and if they *had* stood up for themselves instead of bottling up their anger for years, it probably wouldn't have reached such a dramatic climax.

        By the way, we don't care who you're dating or how she's doing, and when she dumps you in a few months, not only will you no longer care about Columbine, but if you're truely as sensitive as you appear, you'll probably be so
      • If you have a problem with a bully at a COLLEGE you get the police involved and they fix it,

        I knew kids in high school with death lists, complete with reasons and methods of murder. One even got called in to talk about it and showed it to the officials. Punishment? "Hes an angry kid but harmless." True story. Even happened after Columbine. My friends and I used to joke about how much extra 'protection' was put into place after Columbine especially after this 'incident.'

        • Yes, the upstanding 2% of the population agrees with you. Now, what about the rest?
            • Responsible gun owners cannot be catastrophes waiting to happen, that's a ridiculous notion. But I'm not talking about them at all. I'm talking about the irresponsible gun owners.

              Gun ownership doesn't translate to intelligence, upstandingness and moral fiber any more than having an internet connection does. And we all here know what kind of people have internet connections.

    • Uh what? I'm pretty sure there were plenty of movies with guns in the 50s. WWII movies and Cowboys and Indians for sure. Maybe it was portrayed differently but they didn't use pointy sticks in those movies (well, maybe the Indians).

      • Re: (Score:2, Informative)

        by FLEB (312391)
        I went through the first half of the game (then, to be honest, it got a bit tedious), but I found that the (attempted, reasonably successfully) value in it was something like an in-depth report with a little more personal involvement. It's kind of like the 9/11 Commission Report graphic novel... it applied a different medium to a popularily underunderstood event to give insight that might not be normally taken.

        Do I think it could have been done better-- sure, in quite a few ways, but this for being the firs

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