No Video Games on School Nights 337
Donkey Konga writes "In the latest round of the ongoing debate on the effect of video games and TV on academics, a new study in Pediatrics says that any amount of gaming is too much if if happens on a school night. '"On weekdays, the more they watched, the worse they did," said study coauthor Dr. Sharif. Weekends were another matter, with gaming and TV watching habits showing little or no effect on academic performance, as long as the kids spent no more than four hours per day in front of the console or TV." Of course we all know that correlation does not equal causation, but the study is sure to get many parents thinking about how much time in front of the Xbox and idiot box is too much."
oblig (Score:5, Funny)
moderation & motivation (Score:5, Interesting)
I use games as a motivation for my son. The general rule is no games during the weekday, but if he does really well, or I get him to do all his homework plus some extra studying, he gets 30min of play(notice I did not say 1hr). I also use this tactic on weekends. Study 30min = 1hr game play with me.
He gets excited about doing homework so he can play multi-player games with Dad.
Problem is, most parents don't know how to handle this, and they don't know what buttons to push to motivate their kids.
Re:moderation & motivation (Score:5, Informative)
This doesn't prove jack-shit. The conclusion of this study should have been that kids who routinely play computer games perceive they're doing worse in school than those who don't.
How many kids did you know in school who didn't play computer games? I haven't been in school for fifteen years, and even then the only people who never played computer games were the handful of nerdy geek kids who didn't own a computer and/or would rather play scrabble with their parents.
Big surprise if the ultra-nerdy kids who real encyclopedias for fun on average, as a group are more intelligent than those who play computer games (ie, a significant fraction of "everyone").
It's a bit like comparing people who listen to classical music or join the debate club with "everyone else". Generally it's the really nerdy academic kids that do this, but according to the logic of this article the conclusion should be that not arguing with people makes me thicker. Oh noes!!!!111!11one!
This smacks of a bullshit agenda-driven experiment. Why get kids to self-report on their progress? Why not use actual grades achieved? It's subjective as all hell. And why merely use "the amount of TV watched", rather than taking into account different parenting styles, whether kids or their parents chose how much TV was watched, etc, etc, etc.
Re:moderation & motivation (Score:5, Insightful)
The Publication [aappublications.org]
This study is also subject to several limitations. We used a self-report measure of school performance as our main outcome. Use of self-report for school performance is supported by previous studies showing that, whereas students may inflate their grades,14, 38 self-reports generally correlate with teacher reports. Specifically, Anderson et al14 reported that whereas self-reported grades were inflated from 0.26 to 0.37 points on a 4-point scale, they were highly correlated with transcript grades (r = 0.71-0.82). Hence, we believe that despite the probable grade inflation, the substantial and statistically significant correlative associations between the self-reported grades and all of the covariates are internally valid. The study was conducted in a limited geographic area, so it is possible that the findings may not hold true for children in other areas of the country. A national sample would be needed to determine whether the relationships between media use and school performance apply across populations, especially among minority populations. In addition, it is always possible that there are other unmeasured confounders that would explain the association between television exposure and school performance. Notably, our study did not include any measure of child intelligence quotient. It is possible that children with low intelligence quotient perform more poorly in school and, as a result, have less interest in school and greater interest in television, movie, and video game use. Finally, whereas we have established a relationship between exposure to adult content in television and movies and poorer school performance, because of our cross-sectional design, we cannot infer a before-and-after relationship between content exposure and school performance. Additional work is needed to clarify directionality, along with the intervening processes between adult content exposure and school performance. A longitudinal study, with data on potential mediators, as well as school performance, could be helpful in studying this relationship.
The authors themselves do a better job of critiquing their work than you do. With a correlation coefficient on self-reporting of grades this high, I am confident in kids' abilities to assess their own performance. Of course, I'm happy to be impartial. I'm not sure any piece of information would be sufficient to reverse your clearly strong beliefs (based on anecdotal evidence).
The conclusion they draw is correct, which is that more research should be done which controls for other factors. To be honest, I wouldn't be surprised if the results were even more conclusive if they did this.
Re:moderation & motivation (Score:3, Insightful)
And what is the probability of achieving those r-values by chance? If you do not know that, you have no basis other than faith for any belief about its significance.
The state of statisitical practice in the social sciences is shameful. To simply say that an r-value of "0.71-0.82" is "high" is completely and utterly meaningless. I have seen experiments where an r-value of 0.98 is "low" and 0.998 is "high". The meaning of "low" and "high" for r is entirely dependent on the distributions of
r = 0.71-0.81 = SHOTGUN (Score:3, Interesting)
As Mark Twain said "Figures don't lie, but liars figure." Statistics are easily pressganged. The real question here is causation: Why believe that vidgames cause low marks when low marks might just as easily cause [frustration] vid.games? Most likely, a third cause [independance] affects both to a very limited extent.
Re:moderation & motivation (Score:3, Insightful)
Oh please (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Oh please (Score:5, Funny)
Now thats just karma whoring!
Re:Oh please (Score:5, Funny)
Its just not true (Score:5, Funny)
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Re:Its just not true (Score:5, Insightful)
Being the top of your class because the course is not intended for exceptional students does not mean that games helped or hindered you. It simply means that you were too advanced for the class you took. If this allowed you additional free time to play video games, that is a failing of the school system.
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I applaud your honesty.
Graduating in the top 20 of HS with a 3.98 GPA and with a BS in CS with 3.75 GPA, I consider myself fairly "educated." I consider it more of life style choices. I don't choose to go home and spend the entire night "enriching" myself. I go home watch some anime, read some manga, or play some video games. I don't really care about programming for programming
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Re:Oh please (Score:5, Informative)
Re:Oh please (Score:5, Insightful)
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Yeah... Well, I have it on good authority that the bulk of grashoppa's adolescent computer time was in fact spent learning about anatomy.
What could possibly be useful about so much learning on the anatomy of homosexual dwarves, I've no idea. However, if it turns out that such knowledge is somehow important--perhaps vital to the continuanc
Re:Oh please (Score:4, Funny)
I am shocked,sir. Shocked and deeply offended. It was Albino homosexual dwarves.
However, if it turns out that such knowledge is somehow important--perhaps vital to the continuance of human existance, for example, he's your man.
You will rue the day, my friend. Oh yes. You will rue it HARD CORE.
Re:Oh please (Score:4, Insightful)
Then we get into the argument of what constitutes learning... I learned a lot (about computers) by installing new games, getting device drivers to work, tweaking the graphics cards etc. Kids who play computer games are generally more adept when it comes to using a computer.
Also, many types of games a great vocabulary builders. I learned a lot about mythology, both western and eastern, from MMORPGs. WW2 stategy games gave insight into war. Even Need For Speed taught me a little about cars. I should clarify that I don't think thatgames are the best way to learn about these things; I'm just saying that it is possible to learn a lot from them.
Not to mention, my typing ability went through the roof when I started playing Ultima Online. You can't look at the keys to type "Help" while running from a monster, much less "Haha, I stole all ShortSpear of Vanquishing" with a group of players chasing you.
Grades in school may suffer because kids are playing video games, but this is probably because they are learning other things than what is required by the shool, not because they aren't learning anything.
Games can be educational too (Score:4, Insightful)
Analyzing a system. If you want to get good at a strategy game vs a computer, you do so by really understanding the system. You learn the rules, you figure out ways the can be manipulated to your favour, you figure out how to win by being superior at the system. It's something that I'm fairly good at and serves me well on tests. They too are a game with rules and if you can figure them out, you can do much better. I am (or perhaps I should say was since I'm not in school any more) rather good at that. I take a test and figure out plenty about it, I do better on that one, and much better on subsequent ones. I'm not just taking it, I'm analyzing the system. I figure out what kinds of questions are likely to be asked, if there are any tells in the answers (in the case of multiple choice tests), if questions interrelate and information from one can give you the answer to another.
Now, while I can't present any evidence of how I gained this skill, I can say that the same methods I apply to tests I apply to games like Civ 4. It's the same deal, I am analyzing the game mechanics, and how the computers react to what I do. I am not trying to come up with a list of "they do this so I do that" limited strategies, I am trying to gain a good understanding of the whole system so I can deal with anything. Maybe video games didn't give me that skill, but they probably helped hone it.
What you have to accept is that not everything in a child's life can or should be education focused. Especially since another valuable skill is learning how to learn from life. Everything in life can be a learning experience and it's valuable to take something you learned for no reason at all, and find an application to another part of life. Learning could and should be fun and a continuous experience, not something you have to go and so something special for.
Also kids need time to be kids. There's plenty of time to be grown up and responsible later and part of becoming a happy functioning human being is learning how to have fun, and to do so in moderation with work. I know far too many people who live for nothing but their jobs and it leads to things like depression, excessive drinking, and so on because they never learned how to fill the hours when they aren't being forced to do something. Really, it's ok for kids to just plain goof off at times, it will not cripple them for life.
Finally I think there's waaaay too much focus on grades. While it's important for a kid to do well in school, there seems to be too many parents worried that they need to get A's in all their classes. Fuck that, often grades and learning do not go hand in hand. Filling your head full of facts so you can get 100% on a test, only to then forget them is useless. However actually learning and understanding as many of the concepts and applications as you can, even if that only translates to an 85% on the test, is much better. That's something you might use in life.
You should be active in your kid's education and help them to learn things that will last a lifetime. So long as they are learning, trying, and are getting grades good enough to succeed don't sweat it. If they wind up with a B, or even C instead of an A, oh well. The important thing is they learned what they could that will last. Those are the kind of people I hire. I'm not interested in someone with a 4.0 that only knows how to cram themselves full of facts and formulas to pass a test. Ok, you are full of facts. Wonderful, so is my computer and it's much better at it. What I need is someone who can learn concepts and apply them to real problems.
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Vocabulary? Speed reading? Critical thinking skills? Analytical skills? Concentration? Planning? Perseverance? Matching thought with precise input? Thinking from the perspective of the designer (be it a test or game)?
That's what I learned through my adolescence from videogames, anyway. I placed in the top 3% of my class in highschool, and except for the 3 people tied for valedictorian, all those with GPAs above
Re:Oh please (Score:5, Insightful)
It won't matter whether you're playing video games or mowing the lawn, the results are the same.
There's something this study does -not- say. What should those kids be doing instead of gaming? Sitting and staring at the ceiling? Out at the club partying? Extra-curricular activities at school? If the answer is 'studying' I have news for them... You can forget that. Even if they stare at the book for hours, they aren't actually -learning- anything extra from it, and they'll hate you for it.
Previous posters have mentioned the relaxing effect of video games. I don't wholly agree, but I do agree they relieve stress. Just because it's not as stressful as being behind on your rent and work 3 jobs just to stay even, that doesn't mean school isn't the most stressful thing they've ever done. They need to learn to handle that stress, instead of having it eat them alive for the rest of their lives.
Now, I know some people jumped at the 'extra-curricular' activities option... And that's great for exercise, social networking, and learning to work as a team... But it doesn't really teach anything else. And apart from the exercise, games do all of that already. (Well, some... But then, some EC activities don't, either.)
No, the answer is to make the kids do their studying -before- they game (or watch tv, or whatever), and then let them at it.
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Interactivity (Score:3, Insightful)
Books are "interactive" by my standards in that for the jumble of characters on the pages to become meaningful, you have to actively give them meaning. Besides simply reading the sentences, which is mostly passive, you also have to analyze what's happening in the plot, what might happen next, and what particular themes and points the author is trying to explore. Reading a "good" book is very interactive.
Same could be said for music, but to a lesser extent - I can listen to music while I drive, but I ca
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Re:Oh please (Score:5, Interesting)
I wouldn't say the worry with many people is about video games as much as the fact that the way kids physically interact with their toys has changed. Even in the early 90's, when we were beginning to see the adolescense of the video game industry explode, many of my toys did not have transistors. Granted the gameboy I got for christmas was snuck onto the school playground even after the teachers banned such things to avoid theft and fights, that was about it... well, that and a decaying teddy ruxpin doll from the mid 80's.
Time studying or doing homework isn't that much of an issue, given kids who don't want to do homework have historically found ways and excuses to get around it. The worry lies in "the good old days of running or bicycle riding" or something equally nostalgic for old people, however video games are also moving to deeper levels of physical interaction, take a look at the necessity to pantomime gestures with the Wii or exert high impact aerobic routines with dance dance revolution.
The same study has probably been performed in the past about kids who watch too much TV and probably wielded similar results. This is nothing new, and as the OP stated, moderation and parental ivolvement are the key to raising a child who one day takes over the world and gives mommy and daddy control of some country in europe as a way of saying thanks.
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I spend all my "homework time" moderating on Slashdot and still get passing grades!
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A lot of the best times of my childhood was spent speaking to older folks on IRC and Meridian 59. It seemed like wasted times to my parents, but it was essentially another social life that was equally as valid as any other. I would have been quite angry if I was limited to an hour a day.
A lot of my early vocabulary came from the school nights I spent playing Final Fantasy II. By most logic, my parents should have placed rigid rules on me to prevent the
Oh my! (Score:2, Insightful)
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Was this study sanctioned by Jack Thompson by some chance?
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Plus, I think there's a perfectly clear "excuse," even if the correlation really does indicate causation. Th
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I propose a technical solution (Score:2)
No 2600 love? (Score:2)
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Throughout my life, my computer, TV, and video game time have never been limited. I've been a straight 'A' student my entire life (college is another matter, of course. ^_^) and video games have never brought me down. Through my experiences, I can confidently
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Over the past few years I've had some interesting chats with my parents about it. (I'm 27 in case that matters to you)
Their take on my gaming was that when I first got into it they were really worried about how much time I was wasting on worthless pursuits. However, they let me do as I wished as long as I wasn't screwing up school too badly. I did have grades bomb some due to not doing homework... but then... I wouldn't h
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Re:Oh please (Score:5, Insightful)
Anyone who is reasonably intelligent and even slightly motivated can get good grades in K-12. The trick is maintaining the discipline to develop good enough study habits to get you through college with the same marks.
You didn't have to change (Score:3, Funny)
Re:Oh please (Score:5, Insightful)
Once I hit the University level though I was totally unprepared. Almost flunked out during my first year while I figured out how to study. It's not about how you spend your free time, it's about meeting your responsibilities first. I'm sure would have done much better all the way through had I been monitored more closely.
Screw that. (Score:4, Funny)
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re:Screw that (Score:2)
That would be me.
Well it would be me if I could remember what WoW was.
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Depends upon the kid (Score:4, Interesting)
Re:Depends upon the kid (Score:5, Funny)
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Generalizations can accurately predict outcomes, despite exceptions to the contrary. You don't lose every bet in Vegas, but the shiny buildings indicate which way the money is flowing. Even if a single kid, or a large number of them, do well despite long gameplay and TV viewing, increased hours of exposure correlating well with lower academic scores does mean something. People who read more generall
No banana for you. (Score:5, Insightful)
If history is any guide, the parents who have failed to monitor their childrens' study habits and recreational activities in the past will continue to do so. And those parents who have been responsible in their child-raising duties will also continue to do so.
The study will have no effect whatsoever.
Yes, IAAP. (I am a parent.)
Was about that for me (Score:2)
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Reading... (Score:5, Informative)
Stop! Enough said.
Re:Reading... (Score:5, Insightful)
Personally, I averaged a 94 in all honors classes while watching 8+ hours of TV a day and yet would have said that I could do better because i never tried hard. That's partially why they got the results they did, because they didn't look at academic performance, just feelings about performance. For a valid study, they need to sample a few random high schools, but take like ~100 students from each, then compare class rank to TV watching/video game playing.
I play games on weeknights all the time (Score:2, Interesting)
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Recreational Computer Use vs Playing Video Games (Score:4, Interesting)
Re:Recreational Computer Use vs Playing Video Game (Score:3, Insightful)
Here's a thought (Score:2)
Wow (Score:5, Funny)
Too bad.. I had my shasta and all rush mix tape ready to go
Oblig (Score:3)
Wiggum: Aw, yeah. That was a pretty addictive video game.
Willy: (surprised) Video game?
Video Games == TV? (Score:2)
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So the question
TV or Games? (Score:3, Insightful)
How odd. (Score:2)
In fact, I would go as far as to say that that hour helped me. It was a great way to clear my head of discrete mathematics to make way for Shakespearian analysis.
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#inventory
a. A scroll of thesis
#read a
Your scroll of thesis is blank!
Parental Involvement (Score:4, Insightful)
It seems to me that moderate use of video games is only part of the solution. Ultimately, it comes down to parental involvement and interaction. When I was growing up, my mom and I often played the Atari 2600, NES and SNES together. She made it a point to just sit back and watch sometimes, too. This actually served two purposes:
She had supervision over the game console use and game content. She knew what kinds of games I played, how long I played them for, etc. This made it remarkably easy for her to anticipate which games to buy for me as gifts or rewards... Not to mention the fact that she played the hell out of Zelda, Super Mario Bros., Metroid and Tetris whenever I wasn't playing.
She also gave me encouragement as I played — sometimes offering other possible avenues of action when I was stumped, soothing words when I was frustrated, or positive reinforcement upon completing a major game objective. If I was acting too rashly in response to a game's difficulty, she would make me quit until I calmed down and approached it again with a fresh perspective and a cooler head.
Ironically, her method of coaching helped to sharpen my natural tendency for analytical thinking, further reinforcing it with the (sometimes negative) quality of persistence (some would also say stubbornness) in coming to an understanding with a thing or concept, or completing a goal. Parental involvement is A Good Thing(tm) for all involved, and a lot of parents nowadays have become disappointingly lax in that department.
One of the best things to do to encourage that such involvement or observation actually takes place? Put the console in the living room. If a kid is going to have his or her game machine and/or computer in their room, that's likely where they'll spend most of their time, thusly putting them outside the sphere of parental influence. Putting the console in a common, non-private area will give the parent(s) the opportunity to regulate usage and observe their child in action; it also affords the parent(s) an opportunity to see how their child reacts to and interacts with the game.
And believe me, if the infamous Chocolate Milk [google.com] video is any indication, a lot of these kids seriously need parental intervention. I can say, thankfully, that I've never acted like such an out-of-control heathen — I knew the fear of MOM, not God.
Some of the younger generation may look at such a suggestion with great disdain, but take it from someone who actually had a parent take the time to get involved — it may seem lame or embarassing, but is A Good Thing(tm). It's also a necessary thing. Take the time, parents; it does make a difference.
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Similar experience for me. Our first cosole was a Colecovision, which we got when I was five. Nominally, it was a present for me, but it was used by the whole family: my parents and my little sister, as well as me. To get a NES all four of us went in for $25 each (five whole weeks of allowances), making it belong to all of us (that was our parents stipulation - they wouldn't buy it for us), ensuring sharing of the machine. Even when they did buy me a SNES, they stipulated that I had to share it with my
Sharif, really? (Score:2)
I tend to dismiss these sorts of studies as fearmongering and ignorant grandstanding, but I'll have to look up the full text of the study and do a bit more reading coming from someone who I know to be well respected in his field, and my field of study.
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Or Maybe... (Score:2)
This study is such horse shit, according to TFA "Researchers asked the students to rate their own performance in school on a scale ranging from "below average" to "excellent," instead of looking directly at their grades or other metrics of academic performance"
I
He doesn't like games on schooldays? (Score:2)
Full Text (Score:2)
Read the thing before you dismiss it, the authors are very well known and respected researchers.
Try replacing video game time with anything else.. (Score:3, Insightful)
Face it, we all have limited time, particularly on weekdays. After dinner, getting ready for bed, baths, etc., there's limited time for homework or study. If you waste it, children will do worse, no matter how you waste it.
My wife and I limit our first grader to 30 minutes on the PS2, assuming that there's time, he'e been good at school, and that he'll complete his homework (which isn't that much) before snack time before bed. Anybody with an ounce of common sense could tell you that his academic work would suffer if we reduced study time to allow more play time, regardless of whether or not it was on the PS2 or playing Mille Borne or Sorry! or any other game...or even just playing with Legos.
This is a time management issue, not a video game issue.
Educational Gaming (Score:2)
Since when do grades matter? (Score:2, Insightful)
Video games didn't affect my school work (Score:2)
Morning (Score:2)
If he plays 4h on a weekend morning, he's a little too grumpy during the afternoon. But other than that, I see no reason to limit him more.
None at all? (Score:2, Insightful)
Results May Vary (Score:2)
Kill Your TV (Score:2)
I joke, but the AMA's longterm longitudinal (comprehensive across demographics) study determined that more TV than that (above Amish levels) contributed direct
eh.. (Score:2, Insightful)
So what should kids do then? (Score:2)
" Researchers asked the students to rate their own performance in school on a scale ranging from "below average" to "excellent," instead of looking directly at their grades or other metrics of academic performance"
It has nothing to do with grades as everyone keeps bringing up, it was how kids thought they did in schools. Kind of rating them selves. This might not even include grades at all.
Also they are not saying NO TV or games, but limited to 2 HOURS of quality broadcasting per day.
And what
Just Set Up a Reward System (Score:2)
As far as the contention that any television/computer time on school nights, I'm a little skepti
Every Free Minute (Score:2)
Of course, I also finished all my homework (doing it during school left more time after school for games) and didn't try to do a sloppy job. I also played a wide variety of gam
Teach self control and decision making (Score:3, Insightful)
What's the reason, really? (Score:3, Insightful)
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What evidence do you have that time spent in front of the TV and computer is time away from homework? Maybe it's time away from running around outside. Maybe it's time away from talking on the phone. Maybe it's time away from other academic related activity.
I have just an "obvious" correlation: spending all your time on homework leads to burnout, which leads to not caring and a drop in grades. You need "me" time in there too, and if the kid wants to spend that time on the computer or TV, that's fine.
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Using your hypothesis, reading (anything but a textbook), listening to music, and playing with friends is time away from studying and should therefore be disallowed.
You can't just "connect the dots". Your "easy to prove" statement is nothing but a lot of unfounded guesswork.
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I almost never went beyond this point in high school. I simply stopped working on assignments when I felt I extracted all I needed from them. Needless to say, my teachers were not impressed, despite the fact that my test scores were, in ge
Fucking whoa. (Score:4, Insightful)
What you've just done is the single most common error in any correlational study. Let's go through some remedial Statistics here.
Correlation coefficient {r} = [1/(n-1)][summation of((x-(mean of x))/(st.dev.x))((y-(mean of y))/(st.dev.y))]
Do you see "cause" or "effect" or "connect the dots" in that equation? No? Well, there's a good reason. The sole function of a correlation study is to find a relationship. Not a causal relationship. A relationship. When X goes up, Y goes up too, on average. When Z decreases, H increases, on average. X does not cause Y to increase. Z does not cause H to increase.
A few years back there was a study on cavities and reading level. Huge headlines! Kids with higher reading levels have more cavities! Connect the dots, right? Higher reading levels means more time spent reading, which means they're sitting around, eating candy, getting cavities, right? Or maybe the brain releases a chemical when you read better that breaks down your teeth, right? There's no question that having a higher reading level CAUSES the cavities, right?
Turns out that kids with higher reading levels are older than the other kids. Turns out that as you get older, you have more cavities, on average, than you did when you were younger. Turns out that the study forgot to take age into account.
There is absolutely no way to prove that more time spent on video games causes lower grades. Correlation != causation.
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Add to that the limited amount of time you can practically remain outside in winter in most of the US or in summer here in Australia (I have friends who have had Child Protective Services called on them for letting their kids spend too much time in the sun), and you're talking about most of your socializ
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You can't make a general statement like that. Depends on the parent and the environment.
Does it really matter what those indoor activities are?
Go here, do this, see that vs. lets make some shit up, or lets go explore.
Part of being a parent is choosing where to live. The kid environment is part of that choice.
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Just because "everyone knows" something doesn't necessarily make it true, thusly, just as in mathematics where a good mathematician has the ability to prove, from the ground up, the entire system of numbers -- social psychologists are attempting to prove, from the ground up, the mechanisms that underlie human behavior.
People never say things about studies being worthless or "common sense" in topics like ph