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From Hot Coffee To Warm Tea

Posted by Zonk on Mon Oct 30, 2006 11:16 AM
from the weak-sauce dept.
Government Entertainment Games Politics
I've been avoiding posting about it, but Joystiq has a completely and utterly sane discussion of the non-story that is the Bully boy on boy kissing 'scandal'. Despite the ravings of Jack Thompson, the homosexual behavior in Bully was seen by the ESRB and is not the first game to feature such content. From the article: "The ESRB would be insane if they were bullied into giving an 'M' (Mature 17+) rating to Bully, as this story continues to gain traction in the mainstream press ... It would also force the ginormous Electronic Arts into the mix to defend the 'T' rated Sims. We're willing to wager that Electronic Arts, which has a Human Rights Campaign corporate equality index score of 88 and had transsexual game designer Danielle Bunten Berry on staff, will put up a good fight if challenged. Rockstar played this brilliantly, they slid in a topic that is controversial, but perfectly defensible, and those that would attack 'Warm Tea,' won't have an easy time of it compared to 'Hot Coffee.'" SFGate put up a thoughtful opinion piece / review of Bully this past weekend. If you're not familiar with the game, it's a great way to fully understand how there's really nothing to worry about here.
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Related Stories

[+] Jack Thompson Files Take-Two, Rockstar Lawsuit 451 comments
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[+] Hot Coffee's Effects On The GTA Mod Scene 31 comments
simoniker writes "Over a year after the infamous 'Hot Coffee' incident, author and game designer Brenda Brathwaite explores the tragic aftermath on the GTA mod community — including interviews with 'Hot Coffee' creator PatrickW, the ESRB's Patricia Vance, and more." From the article: "The second version of San Andreas was made 'much more mod-resistant' according to Patrick, and among members of the community, there is doubt that future versions will be moddable at all. 'This has already made good people leave the scene,' Patrick adds. Among those that remain, there exists a certain amount of caution. 'Some innocent modding stuff isn't getting released,' says Patrick, 'because modders are afraid it might cause another controversy.'"
[+] Clinton and Lieberman Ally With ESRB 54 comments
Along with Penny Arcade, the ESRB can now apparently count Hillary Clinton and Joe Lieberman as allies. GamePolitics reports that they'll be participating in an ad blitz for the organization, aimed at promoting awareness of the videogame rating system. From the article: "This is a major coup for the video game industry. Senators Clinton and Lieberman are co-sponsors of the Family Entertainment Protection Act, video game legislation currently before the Senate. Sen. Lieberman applied the political pressure in the mid-90's that essentially led to the development of the industry's rating system. Sen. Clinton led the political charge against 2005's Hot Coffee scandal. The question that remains unanswered is - what motivated these two watchdogs to partner with the video game industry on this initiative? Did the industry perhaps make concessions or give assurances?" 1up has further commentary on this announcement, including an insightful G.I. Joe reference.
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  • classification (Score:5, Funny)

    by illegalcortex (1007791) on Monday October 30 2006, @11:26AM (#16643087)
    Hot Coffee = male/female sex

    Hot Tea = male/male kissing

    Oh, the brits aren't going to like this one...

  • Bigotry (Score:2, Insightful)

    by APE992 (676540)
    Anyone who truely finds this offensive should be considered a bigot.

    • Re: (Score:2, Insightful)

      by ultranova (717540)

      Anyone who truely finds this offensive should be considered a bigot.

      "Anyone who disagrees with me is a bigot".

      That's pretty much the definition of irony :).

      • Pointing out bigotry.. is not itself bigotry.

        But, don't let that stop you fucking asshats replying to the OP.

        • Pointing out bigotry.. is not itself bigotry.

          According to dictionary.com, a "bigot" is "a person who is utterly intolerant of any differing creed, belief, or opinion". Finding homosexuality offensive is an opinion (or possibly belief, if the opinion is based on religion). Being intolerant of other people's opinions is bigotry. Therefore, the OP's statement is in itself bigotry.

          That's the problem with being very tolerant of other people's values: how do you deal with people who are not tolerant ? Will

          • There's a gap in your reasoning! How is calling someone a bigot an act of intolerance? I don't recall the OP stating any intolerance or animosity toward bigots. Heck, the fellow could be the president of Save the Bigots for all we know. Your assumption shows that you think that bigotry is bad. Therefore, you are yourself a bigot!

    • Bigot or not, people are still entitled to a point of view. If you are intolerant of intolerance, are you any better than them?
        • There is a marked difference between being intolerant of someone's natural sexuality (or rather any quality they are born with) and being intolerant of fools.

          What if they're born fools?

          -Eric

    • Re:Bigotry (Score:4, Insightful)

      by HappySqurriel (1010623) on Monday October 30 2006, @03:59PM (#16648195)
      Anyone who truely finds this offensive should be considered a bigot.

      I'm personally going to disagree with you mainly because I think the type of statement you're making undermines the freedom of speech (and religion) that western society is based on; it is the type of statement that prevents open (and honest) discussion on any subject and is just as damaging as "Anyone who rejects this videogame violence bill condones child abuse" or "If you oppose our participation in Afganistan you don't support our troops.".

      Personally I don't find the content in the game offensive but saying that someone who does is a bigot is pretty extreme. Maybe my education was poor, but I was always lead to believe that biggotry had to do with someone being intolerant towards another group. Now Tolerance (inspite of some people's opinion) does not mean to embrace something, it means to put up with; if your parents said they would tolerate the person you choose to marry you'd probably get very angry.

      I will try to make what I'm saying more clear ...

      Suppose you started working in a cubical next to someone who came from the gym every morning and dried their work-out gear in the open; being that they only wash this gear on the weekend by wednesday it smells pretty funky and on friday it smells like a dead animal. Now if your boss told you to "tolerate" it does that mean that you have to stop being offended by the smell of the sweaty workout stuff?

      In a similar fashion, someone who disagrees with (or is offended by) Homosexuality is not necessarily a bigot; it depends on how they act on it that would define whether they were a bigot or not.
        • the ridiculous idea that it is somehow ok to be "offended" by a persons natural sexuality.

          Taking a shit is a natural act too. That doesn't mean I wouldn't be offended if someone dropped trow and took a big dump right in front of me.

          Some "natural acts" belong in a private setting, including tonsil hockey (be it between Adam and Eve or Adam and Steve).

          -Eric

        • You need to define what's included in the "sex crime rate" and a location the data is supposed to cover, otherwise your statement is meaningless.

          According to the FBIs Uniform Crime Reports, the rate of forcible rape has increased dramatically between 1970 and 2005.
          Around 1970 the rate was ~20 per 100,000 inhabitants.
          In the 2000's the rate was ~31 per 100,000 inhabitants.
          • You cannot use the uniform crime reports to determine the rate of forcible rape because it records only reported crimes. What they tell you is that more rapes were reported, they tell you nothing about the actual rate of incidence.
            • See! You're onto something here! All we have to do is stop reporting the crime and it will all go away! That must be the solution!
      • More so I would say that those who do sway to the preference of same sex relations and who promote such lifestyles, tend to have more of a bigotry towards those who hold a moral stance to heterosexual relations.

        Just plain wrong. You cannot possibly make a correlation about an entire group of people based on your personal beliefs. This is the same as saying all followers of Islam are terrorists. Simply not true. Period.

        Same-sex relations leftist. . . . Says they believe in diversity, yet in practic
  • It's like a corporate Poison Pill for Jack Thompson. Nee-chay!
  • It should be interesting to see how this plays out because videogame content is under attack from both extremes of the political spectrum and on each side you should see the complete opposite reaction; on the socially progressive side the argument will be that anyone who doesn't support this is a caveman and the socially conservative side will see this as a continued destruction of the moral core of America.

    In general you could have infighting and loss of respect between these two groups and it should be in
    • Oh, never underestimate the power of social "progressives" to find things to despise about videogames. And I'd wager this will pass beneath the notice of many social conservatives, who these days tend to only notice things that come in the form of movies or television. Videogames are assumed to be inherently evil, like music or books.

      Remarkably, it does seem to be the "left" that focuses on tearing down videogames ... which is just silly, if you think about it. Liberalism is supposed to emphasize being

  • Is there anything Rockstar won't do to attract a little press attention?
    • Both Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic and Jade Empire contained homosexuality. In the case of Star Wars: KOTOR it was fairly tame, with the female Jedi Juhani confessing she was in love with you, and you could agree to discuss it after the mission was over. Jade Empire was more unabashed, with the female or male NPC having the option to make a member of the same sex fall in love with them. Although in both cases, whereas the heterosexual kiss was a full on face-plant, if you'd fallen for a character o
      • I think the same type of thing was present in Fable, too. I never experienced it, but I thought I may have read about it at one point.
      • Long before KOTOR, remember Fallout 2? Not only are there gay sexual encounters, there's actually the possibility of a gay wedding. In fact, a gay shotgun wedding. And, later on, a gay divorce.
    • "Is there anything Rockstar won't do to attract a little press attention?"

      If Jack Thompson wasn't such an asshat, Rockstar wouldn't be able to have something as simple as a boy-kisses-boy feature in the game to attract press attention.
      • It is starting to look more and more like maybe Jack Thompson is some kind of plant. It's not unlike the theory that the Westborough Baptist Church was actually founded to raise sympathy for homosexuals -- they're so ridiculously over-the-top that it gets easier and easier to hang on to the suspiscion that they're not for real.
        • Much as Westboro Baptist Church seems an agent provocateur, I really doubt that anyone would or could keep up that kind of front for year after year. These folks live in a walled compound, and they're so closed off that they're actually starting to inbreed. No one goes that far as an act.
          • These folks live in a walled compound, and they're so closed off that they're actually starting to inbreed. No one goes that far as an act.

            I dunno, I guess it would depend how hot my cousin was...
        • Yeah, and Jack was also payed by 2 Live Crew to give that band ten times more media exposure than their craptacular act ever deserved.

          You don't need a conspiracy theory to explain it. Jack Thompson is really only about promoting one thing: Himself. Being "that crazy idiot who hates profane hip-hop/violent video games" has kept his name in headlines for well over a decade now, when otherwise nobody would know or care anything about "that useless lawyer that never wins any cases". The fact that the target

      • If I created and wanted to market a game, I would spend a few days programming and animating in something contraversal like this to use the current (and foolish) political climate for for advertisment.

        So the only thing missing in a game in which you have to beat up kids is controversy... Hmm... Yeah, kissing ought to fill that gap!

          • Did I miss something? The Sims has had "homosexuality" in the game for over 6 years. Players could actually encourage their Sims to pair up with same-sex Sims and fall in love, kiss, etc. if they wanted. I do not remember any huge controversy about that. I don't know if that is available in Sims 2 or not, but why wouldn't it be? Why is this a big deal?

  • Yeesh (Score:3, Insightful)

    by MobileTatsu-NJG (946591) on Monday October 30 2006, @11:34AM (#16643217)
    SFGate put up a thoughtful opinion piece / review of Bully this past weekend. If you're not familiar with the game, it's a great way to fully understand how there's really nothing to worry about here.


    I bought the game last week. I haven't found the boy you can kiss. So far, though, my impression is that the 'controversy' here is laughable at best. When you target people options appear indicating what you can do with them. With some females, for example, you can profess your attraction to them and potentially woo them into smooching. My guess is that there's a boy floating around you can walk up and the heart icon will appear. Wee. Polish those pitchforks. /sarcasm

    I have to be honest: I think it's more controversial that Bully is described as having 'gay sexual content that deserves a higher rating' than it is to have the option to kiss a boy in the game. Nice little double-standard there.

     

    • Re:Yeesh (Score:5, Funny)

      by bunions (970377) on Monday October 30 2006, @11:51AM (#16643435)
      > Polish those pitchforks.

      Stop that, you'll go blind!
      • There's a couple guys you can kiss... probably one with each faction, I would guess. My boytoy is Trent, one of the bullying bastards who endlessly hassles you in the game's first chapter. Irony.

        But really, it's just for the life-up, I swear!

  • THAT... is funny.
  • They didn't have a release for anything other than Sony PS2, so I won't be buying it.

    Oh well, not my loss...I just won't be buying it at all. :)
  • I haven't played Bully, so I'm speculating wildly here, but here's my assumption:

    There's a "kiss" button combination, so if you stand in front of a girl and press it, you grab her and you kiss.

    Now, what happens if you stand in front of a boy and press the same buttons?

    It seems to me that if anything different happens, the developers have to explain why they're discriminating against homosexuality. The only fair and balanced thing to do is for the engine to treat boys and girls alike.

    The only remaining quest
    • "There's a "kiss" button combination, so if you stand in front of a girl and press it, you grab her and you kiss."

      Not exactly. You have 'positive' and 'negative' button pushes. With most guys, if you walk up and hit the positive one, he'll say "whassup?" and the dude'll either say something nice back or insult you. With the femmes, you'll say something like "You sure are pretty!", and if that works, you have the option to give them flowers. I haven't bumped into the gay student yet, but I imagine it wor
  • I seriously clicked on this article to read about some Slashdotter switching from caffinated coffee to tea, and the experience he/she went through. I read and now see it's about virtual boy on boy action.

    I wonder which situation would actually make more of an impact on the typical Slashdotter. =p

  • This will cost Rockstar sales (Score:3, Insightful)

    by ConfusedSelfHating (1000521) on Monday October 30 2006, @01:28PM (#16645209)
    Very few people want homosexual content in their games. There will be quite a number of people who were going to buy Bully and now they won't. The vast majority of heterosexual males are disgusted with homosexuality. This isn't something that liberals want to hear, but it's true. This is about forcing something on the consumer that they don't want. The standard reaction of the consumer is not to buy it.

    I'll give a non-homosexual example of where my digust for something made me regret a purchase. I watch a lot of movies in the theater. The movie Beloved had come out and I decided to go see it. There was one scene I was repulsed by. Oprah Winfrey urinating. God, I hope that was faked. It wasn't her sitting down and doing her business ... it was an arc of urine coming out from beneath her dress.

    So I don't like watching homosexuals kiss or watching Oprah pee. If a media product comes out which includes either, I will not purchase it.
    • Very few people want homosexual content in their games.

      I point you in the direction of the multitude of patches for Baldur's Gate 2 that remove the gender restrictions on the romance subplots, and laugh in your face. Then I point you in the direction of Fallout 2, in which absolutely everybody in the game seems to be bi (at least for my 17-year-old female with high charisma and the Sex Appeal perk, anyway). And laugh in your face again. And I, for one, am always game for more of that sort of thing.

      Perha

    • Very few people want homosexual content in their games. There will be quite a number of people who were going to buy Bully and now they won't. The vast majority of heterosexual males are disgusted with homosexuality. This isn't something that liberals want to hear, but it's true. This is about forcing something on the consumer that they don't want. The standard reaction of the consumer is not to buy it.

      If it was a game where homo-smooches were a major component, you might almost have a point. But this is o
    • The Sims and The Sims 2 were two of the all-time best sellig games in history, and you can do all sorts of things w/ same-sex interactions. Hasn't seemed to have an impact on sales one bit.

      (Somewhat related: Jack Thompson also thinks that Sims 2 is a pedophile's dream-come-true, as well, since you can remove the pixel blur for children and even apply third-party skins with teh boobies! Somebody please think of the virtual children!!!)

    • This is about forcing something on the consumer that they don't want.

      Ohnoes! You can optionally kiss a boy! Now that I know I can offer flowers to a boy in the game, I simply can't resist, I'm somehow compelled by the homosexual agenda! I'm being forced get flowers, to track down a gay character, and offer the flowers to that character! Help, help, I'm being oppressed!

      Meanwhile in reality, the gay kiss isn't "forced" on the player any more than the straight kissing also possible in the game is forced

  • I think I brought this up in a Hot Coffee thread a long time ago, and I'm stating it here again because I didn't notice that anyone else had done so yet.

    Long ago, SimCopter included an unplanned easter egg that featured semi-nude male NPCs running around kissing. The guy who included it in the game--it wasn't planned or discussed with the rest of the team, it seems--was fired supposedly for the unauthorized inclusion, not for its content. That, at least, is how I understood what happened.

    Now, nobody r
    • No, he got fired because it's a WCB violation to be around whirring blades without adequate safety equipment.

      Never mind getting "caught" in the rotor - all characters have to wear reflective vests and helmets when near working helicopters.

    • Re: (Score:3, Interesting)

      by RsG (809189)

      Rockstar tried pushing the envelope in GTA and got burnt. So, they just picked a different letter and moved it very slowly.

      Got burnt? Yeah, they cried all the way to the bank! Those poor, maligned success stories....

      Seriously, Jackass here is the best thing that ever happened to them. As long as he keeps up his "crusade", they get free press, and a reputation that will attract people purely for the controversy.

      What's more, they've now made it a political issue by shifting the controversial content from s

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