Stories
Slash Boxes
Comments
Search

News for nerds, stuff that matters

Slashdot Log In

Log In

Create Account  |  Retrieve Password

The Platinum Age of CRPGs

Posted by Zonk on Thu Apr 12, 2007 10:55 AM
from the my-favorite-coin-denomination dept.
Role Playing (Games)
Matt Barton writes "I've just posted my third (and final) installment on CRPG history at GamaSutra: The Platinum and Modern Ages. This article covers the many classics released between 1994 and 2004, including Fallout, Planescape: Torment, Ultima Underworld, and of course Baldur's Gate, Diablo, and The Elder Scrolls. It also discusses why WoW and other MMORPGs aren't descended from these CRPGs (but rather MUDs). The Platinum Age produced the finest CRPGs ever made — but the future of the stand-alone, single-player CRPG looks grim."
+ -
story
This discussion has been archived. No new comments can be posted.
The Fine Print: The following comments are owned by whoever posted them. We are not responsible for them in any way.

The Platinum Age of CRPGs 50 Comments More /

 Full
 Abbreviated
 Hidden
More
Loading... please wait.

  • Nethack (Score:4, Insightful)

    by mandelbr0t (1015855) on Thursday April 12 2007, @11:09AM (#18703375) Journal
    Bah. The single-player CRPG is not dead, and it never will be. I've only ascended 3 of the total classes, now working on Monk :)

    • I don't think know if nethack qualifies as an RPG, does it? I don't think Diablo does either, because Diablo is essentially graphical nethack (well, maybe not nethack, but rogue-alike anyway). Rogue and all its descendants are...something else.

      • Re:Nethack (Score:4, Insightful)

        by Cheapy (809643) on Thursday April 12 2007, @12:05PM (#18704413)
        Nethack is what you make it. Most players choose the "homicidal kleptomaniac" role however. Play a Knight, and you have a code to follow. Same for Monks and Samurai (to a lesser extent).

        So there are some roles to play...but it'd be hard to justify it as a CRPG. However, RPGs have taken a different meaning from role-playing games. An RPG is more of a 'hack'n'slash' if anything else now.

        • Re: (Score:3, Insightful)

          by blahplusplus (757119)
          "An RPG is more of a 'hack'n'slash' if anything else now."

          Give me a break, RPG's were based on old war miniature board games and the like. Go look at one of the most famous games of all time, a text game - Legend of the red dragon from the BBS days, a text game based heavily on combat, stats and humorously written one liners. The thing is because of the lack of graphics the text was input for the hugest creativity engine in existence: Your brain. You fill in the gaps and imagine things while playing the
  • ..for Fallout 3.

    Bethesdasoft + original Fallout universe, atmosphere, and dark humor = cannot possibly fail.

    At least that's what I'm desperately hoping for.
    • but just think of the ESRB rating its gonna get - I mean it was cool enough (read: comically gory) in plain, isometric 2d - but to have that in full 3d? Jack Thompson sure ain't gonna be happy about this with peoples ribcages getting shot out...
      • Jacko's not going to care if it doesn't make the Top 10 Bestsellers list. Its not like he's gone after *any* of the really gory, exploitive games - just the ones that had extremely deep pockets and met his narrow view of "what's bad".
      • Hey now, Morrowwind was a pretty in-depth and expansive game. But I agree with you about Oblivion: they went for shiny instead of interesting.
      • A-fucking-men. Oblivion is highly-polished garbage compared to the kind of potential Daggerfall hinted at. Granted, it's got some nice *content*, but it's bolted on top of the worst game system I've ever encountered in an RPG. Diablo II has more character customization depth. I don't know how anyone can trust Bethsoft to make a decent game. Expect another Monkey Island 4.
      • Bethesda has made exactly nothing worth a damn since Daggerfall.

        I would disagree, I quite enjoyed Magic and Mayhem: The Art of Magic as well as the original Magic and Mayhem.

  • The trouble with Platinum (Score:5, Funny)

    by Bloke down the pub (861787) on Thursday April 12 2007, @11:12AM (#18703425)
    The trouble with Platinum is, where do you go from there? It's like an amp that only goes up to 10.
    • The Double Platinum Age of CRPGs?
    • The trouble with Platinum is, where do you go from there? It's like an amp that only goes up to 10.

      Californium? Plutonium? there are so many more valuable metals. Maybe natural diamond?
    • Iridium, then Einsteinium. Bonus!: they both make you glow.

      After that, you move towards man-made chemicals such as Xalatan [TM], a glaucoma eye medicine that costs $70 for 5ml. (My dog is getting a might expensive these days....):
    • The Diamond Age of course...
    • Based on D&D games you go to diamond then to adimantium?

      The X-Games has faced this too. They'll soon have the XX-Games then the Super-XX-Games. They can't go to XXX-Games for obvious reasons.

  • Truth! (Score:5, Interesting)

    by Friedrich Psitalon (777927) on Thursday April 12 2007, @11:14AM (#18703481)
    Part of the reason for the rise and decline of these games can be traced to the computing power of the eras. RPGs were getting better and better because the ability to make them more appealing - graphically, sound (voice quality, etc) were improving. It became easier to develop a more immersive environment, and so more and more attention went to writing a story that could show off the quality that was possible.

    Unfortunately, with the rise of greater and easier connectivity, the ability to play RPG's with more friends came - and thus we saw the rise of the MMORPG. Although they might have first envisioned being more RPG than MUD, the popularity of the games erased Role-Playing very quickly. (Joe Sixpack likes killing monsters, but doesn't give a damn about "Thou and thee.")

    What would it take for a great single-player RPG now? A game so enjoyable that it overshadows the enjoyment factor of playing a similar game with hundreds of others. Humans are social creatures, by and large, so that will be very tough to do. It won't be a hack-and-slash dungeon crawler in any case; that genre is utterly oversaturated in MMORPGs.

    If another great RPG series is developed, my money is on a Fallout/Shadowrun-genre RPG; it's about the only genre not super-satured (ignoring the embarassing Matrix attempt at it) in the MMO world. (Though, in all honesty, the idea of playing a Shadowrun MMORPG....whew. I'm in, chummers.)

    • What would it take for a great single-player RPG now? A game so enjoyable that it overshadows the enjoyment factor of playing a similar game with hundreds of others.


      Oblivion?

      Layne
      • Or Final Fantasy XII, if you count the occasional console game.

        Single player isn't dead, but the days of mediocre single player are gone. You need a kicking story, excellent voice talent (or writing talent), and a good interface. Otherwise it's just not going to cut it in a competitive market.
    • RPGs were getting better and better because the ability to make them more appealing - graphically, sound (voice quality, etc) were improving.

      Yes and no...

      As a point of reference, I would guess that we can probably agree that FF7 represented the high-point of console RPGs, for which it owes an enormous debt to the graphics capabilities of the PSX. At the same time, though, it had quite a powerful story behind it that would have made it still turn out a huge success even if Square had made it for the SN
      • You forgot Star Ocean 2. Far better than anything Square ever made.

      • Re: (Score:3, Insightful)

        by servognome (738846)

        Pretty graphics killed gameplay long before the first "M" in "MMORPG" became practical

        That argument has been used and reused since the introduction of graphics. Pretty graphics and a boring game were a problem almost 20 years ago. The landscape of games hasn't changed, there always has been 10 bad games for every great game, it's just our memories filter out the bad when we reflect on the past

        "When everything is put together, Legend of Blacksilver is
        somewhat disappointing. The game is fine on a tec

    • In my humble opinion, the best console RPGs were developed during the SNES and PSX eras. I actually think that with all this technological advancement since then, the typical game designer is focusing less and less on story and gameplay, and more on making their game a glorified multimedia presentation. It was with that thought in mind that I began developing my own RPG, reminiscent of "the old days" that I miss so dearly. I quickly learned that developing a game (especially in your spare time) is an incred
    • What would it take for a great single-player RPG now?

      Honestly, I think it just takes a highly driven creative team to sit down and go: "let's recapture the experience that Fallout/Diablo/Final Fantasy" brough to the table. Ya know, before cutscenes and poly counts became so important."

      Ultimately, it's just another form of narrative just like all other genres of gaming, but it's not equal to others. If anything it superceeds the requirements for action and puzzle titles by a landslide. It's a richer desi

  • Parts I and II (Score:5, Informative)

    by Mortanius (225192) on Thursday April 12 2007, @11:16AM (#18703509) Homepage
    FYI, here's Part I (The Early Years 1980-1983) [gamasutra.com] and Part II (The Golden Age 1985-1993) [gamasutra.com].

    Might save you a little digging as for some reason part I doesn't show up on his bio.

  • Muds were better."Platinum age is only hindsight" (Score:5, Insightful)

    by kinglink (195330) on Thursday April 12 2007, @11:39AM (#18703917)
    Ok Might and magic 6-8 are personal favorites, and morrowind is amazing, but when I want to really "RPG" I spent my time on different MUDs, because they gave the player freedom to do what they want and play in which world they wanted. It was a great and different experience every time you logged onto a different mud. Interconnected worlds where you could chat with people, unique monsters you could never find anywhere else. I worked on a mud and the best part is a week of code could create something radically different, versus working in the game industry where it will take at least a month of code + animators to even implement simple thoughts.

    But calling something the ______ age always makes me think that the people can't remember crap. You know how the NES was the "golden age of games" Heaven forbid we remember that most games used odd passwords (Willow, river city ransom) for saves, there was at least 10 games that were clones of the "classics" we cherish now. Games were unbelievably hard to the point that they made the game genie and so on. We can still play the "classics" but wishing us back into that hell where crap piled up faster then the gems would only make the masochist happy.

    I loved Diablo, I didn't love Nox, and the other 5 or 6 clones of Diablo that came out right after Diablo. We can complain about games now but then 10 years from now people will be talking about how great oblivion and World of Warcraft is compared to the "crap" they have then.

    It's great that this guy believes that the 1994 to 2004 is the "best time for RPGs" but hell, World of Warcraft is a fun game too. But bitching about the fact that games now are more similar to MUDs than CRPGs ignores the real fact of the industry.

    THE PC IS DYING! He approaches this thought but seems to miss it. PC game sales have decreased over the years to the point where the industry is writing it off. A great game on the PC sells less than half what it would if it is on a console. Hell a MODERATE game on the console still outsells the best games on the PC and the industry knows this. The reason is up to the reader to figure out but KOTOR was ported to the XBOX. There's many more CRPGs taking that path (morrowind, oblivion, fable). CRPGs are just appearing in different places than just the PC.

    I have been finding Gamasutra to be the rantings and whining of game industry's past heros. Guys who have been there, done that, but never got their name out there. There's good articles but this isn't changing my opinion that in general the articles there are either agenda pieces or rantings.
    • Show me ONE flight sim for consoles that sold as well as ANY of the MS Flight Simulator series. Hell, show me one flight sim for consoles, period. They don't exist. The closest you can come are arcade shoot-em-ups that involve shooting from a plane, but there's NO emphasis on accuracy of the flight models, or physics, or anything else except making the explosions look good.

      Same goes for racing simulations. Many arcade "racing" games, no real emphasis on being an accurate simulation. Sadly, in the case

      • Re: (Score:3, Interesting)

        by kinglink (195330)
        Keep believing that because sales continue to drop, not rise.

        Flight Sim? MS Flight Sim sells VERY well, do you think we will never see a MS Flight Sim on the 360? There's a number of flight games that have combat in them (Ace combat has semi realism while maintaining a combat atmosphere) however at the same time the MS Flight Simulator is the ONLY Flight Simulator that sells pretty much anywhere. There's one for a Apple computer but that's about it. So claiming that consoles don't have a flight simulator
        • I think that the PC will remain king for games that require a highly customizable/customized interface. MMOs and flight sims fall into that category. It's a weakness of the console world that any game control system that isn't able to be distilled down to 6-8 buttons and 2 analog joysticks will require some pretty clever contextual interfaces in order to be usable. And those that can't, better be appealing to a wide range of players or it'll flop (see Guitar Hero and Steel Battalion for opposite ends on
      • Except you seem to miss where 1 game means it's thriving. I said dying. It's far from dead. The world of Warcraft thing though is very different than 99 percent of other games out there.

        PC games are thriving in a couple areas, one of those being MMORPG, or games based on a pay to play style where the player is paying for the service rather then the game. I hardly think that means PC games are still viable as anyone who isn't doing a MMO will be selling the game. MMOs sell the service (of playing a game

  • Grim for us all as well as the games. I've played most of the MMOG's, and even when I'm playing them, I still miss the experience of games like PlanetScape: Torment and Icewind Dale. Elder Scrolls is decent, but I think the best hope for CRPG's is in the console market. Some excellent titles have been released.

    My prediction is that we will see a resurgence of the genre after the MMOG furor subsides and virtual economies work themselves out. Then stand-alone RPG's will be seen as a pleasant retro or

  • and he'll come back with all his friends demanding a bigger, sweeter, better cookie each time.

    Most CRPG developer simply couldn't keep up or implement user made content. Ultima, Wizardry and basically any Sierra adventure game all failed in this manner. Games like Nethack, Neverwinter Nights 1 (2 is a buggy mess) and the Elder Scrolls succeeded and continue to enjoy success as traditional CRPGs.

    There was a point in gaming history when the CRPG was viewed as the "hard" genre; the genre that required the la

  • Of all the games I played back then (and i played a LOT), the one i have a great fondness for was Autoduel.

    Not because the game was great (it was merely good) but because the game came with a packet of small tools.

    Which were very useful in doing computer repairs. I cursed when I lost that tool packet a few years ago during a move.

  • This guy needs an editor (Score:3, Informative)

    by eviloverlordx (99809) on Thursday April 12 2007, @12:44PM (#18705099)
    Apparently, he thinks that Dante wrote Paradise Lost. While I think that he meant The Divine Comedy, he really needs someone to check his work.

  • Something seems wrong here (Score:4, Interesting)

    by kalirion (728907) on Thursday April 12 2007, @01:27PM (#18705823)
    FTA:

    To my mind, the games that really represent the best of the genre appeared during the period I've termed the "Platinum Age," which begins in 1996 with the publication of three very important games, Origin's Ultima Underworld: The Stygian Abyss (1992), Blizzard's Diablo, and Bethesda's Elder Scrolls: Daggerfall (both 1996)....

    So the Platinum Age began in 1996 with the publication of a game from 1992?

  • Completely miss the point of Neverwinter Nights (Score:5, Insightful)

    by Etyenne (4915) on Thursday April 12 2007, @01:31PM (#18705889)
    The guy completely miss the point of Neverwinter Nights. He talked only about the original campaign (OC), the scenario that came "in the box", which is IMHO pretty average. The real genius of NWN is that it's more than a game, it's a platform for CRPG development. It created a development community around the game that is not entirely different than what you would find around an Open-Source development platform such as PHP or Ruby on Rail. From modules to custom content (such as artwork, monster, etc) to hackpak that modified the game engine behavior, everything was open to the community. I cannot think of a single game that had as much fan content made and distributed. You could play NWN for years using just the highest rated modules from the community, all distributed for free. Not only that, but Bioware embraced the community, incorporated community developed material back into the product and still actively encourage development to this day.

    Forget the OC. Go buy NWN Planitinium from the nearest bargain bin, and play the Dreamcatcher, Shadowlord, Kosigan and Penultimate series of modules. There are hundreds of hours of gameplay to be had from what the community developed, with some of the most engrossing storyline in the CRPG genre. Neglecting to acknowledge this is the the most glaring overlook from this Gamasutra article.

    Did I mention it have a native Linux port ?
    • I got carried away and totally forgot to mention the great networked multiplayer capabilities of NWN. Basically, with NWN, anybody could start a so-called "persistent world" and run its very own MMORPG. And many did.

      Also, AFAIK, this is the only CRPG that integrate the notion of a game master, which make it the closest you can get to the real pen-and-paper RPG.

      Again, the Gamasutra article completely failed to acknowledge these.
  • For me, it's too much eye candy today. The driving force behind RPG's was to use one's imagination. You couldn't see the six foot flaming sword in the iron golem's hand. And this was true of the CRPG's that we reminisce about. Ultima series, TSR's Gold box series, Wizardry series and the likes. You only saw a static low res pic of what was going on. You had to imagine that the pitiful sound comming out of the PC speaker was the crack of a high-powered round. And they usually had a good story line that kept
  • FTA:

    Better known Diablo clones include Gathering's Darkstone (1999), Electronic Art's Nox (2001), Irrational Games' Freedom Force (2002) ...|snip|... Freedom Force introduced comic book style superheroes and is probably the best of the bunch. It offered a viable alternative to the "dark" fantasy of Diablo and more tactical combat. Vivendi published the sequel in 2005, Freedom Force vs The 3rd Reich.

    Seriously, since when has Freedom Force been considered a Diablo clone?
  • Still reading TFA, but I thought I'd throw this thought out.

    So many games have made major steps forward or backward in the genre of CRPGs. The Ultima series stands out on both of those counts (F U EA!). What I find truly interesting is that some games are so good or at least make such an impression on someone that it gets resurrected in some form or fashion.

    At some point Ultima IV was re-written for Windows and released on a PC Gamer (?) CD.

    Dedicated fans of Ultima V have released an excellent Dungeon S

    • computer or console RPG according to wikipedia. I had to look it up too. I've never heard that one before.
    • There are so many great open source ports of old games. The Ur-Quan Masters, lots of stuff for ScummVM, source ports of doom, I wonder if there's a list compiled somewhere?
      • I've followed this for some time. Unfortunately, I have to agree, it's just been stagnant with minute releases over time. Once in a while (once or twice?) they got fed up and "redid the engine", effectively destroying what work they had done. :(
      • Plus I think Bioware is in way more control of their title's publishing. They can afford to put $$ into their own productions making only themselves (primarily) as a factor in deadlines. Obsidian still has to have other companies to bankroll their projects and distribute their good, and thus, must answer to their bankroller involving direction and deadlines. Bioware USED to be that way (think the glory days of Interplay, when Bioware made BG I + II and MDK2 for Interplay - for starters).

All trademarks and copyrights on this page are owned by their respective owners. Comments are owned by the Poster. The Rest © 1997-2009 Geeknet, Inc.