Microsoft Sued Over Scratched Xbox 360 Discs

Xbm360 writes "Microsoft has been sued by Jorge Brouwer from the US who claims that Xbox 360s scratched his game discs, making them unusable. 'Some gamers speculate that moving the console between vertical and horizontal positions while a disc is spinning inside could cause the scratching. Microsoft warns against such actions with a sticker placed on new consoles, and Brouwer said in the lawsuit that Microsoft's customer service representatives asked him if he had tilted the console. He said he had not. The lawsuit also cites investigations of similar consumer complaints conducted by a Dutch television program, which found that one of nine consoles tested scratched a disc after five hours of play.'"

Imagery

[by Anonymous Coward]

Why do I get the image of Steve Ballmer sitting next to a stack of SpongeBob SquarePants XBox360 game discs with a pocket knife and a bottle of Jack Daniels laughing maniacally as he scratches each disc one by one, packages them back up & puts them in the "toys for underprivileged children" charity box?

Simple

[Zenephis (1119217)]

Here is a pretty simple fix [llamma.com] in case anyone is brave enough to try. Also there is a movie link that shows the degree of the scratches. Be aware, the page is a visual disaster on the eyes. You have been warned.

Disc Return?

[vigmeister (1112659)]

One thing I have never understood is why anybody who sells their shit on optical media doesn't institute a return program for scratched discs. You give me a scratched disc (with a holographic seal of authenticity) and I'll replace it free. Given that the disc itself is cheap to produce (unlike floppy disks), this should ensure TOTAL consumer happiness. In fact, they could even (if possible) clean and sell mildly scratched discs as refurbished/pre-owned and make a profit out of this whole cycle.

Cheers!

Re:Disc Return?

[figleaf (672550)]

Microsoft does exchange scratched discs for games published by Microsoft. Some other companies has similar schemes.
http://www.xbox.com/en-US/support/systemuse/xbox36 0/gameplay/discreplacement-program.htm [xbox.com]

Re:

[zarthrag (650912)]

Have you checked the list of games?

* Crackdown(TM)
* Fuzion Frenzy 2
* Gears Of War®
* Halo® 2
* Kameo(TM): Elements of Power(TM)
* Ninety Nine Nights(TM)
* Perfect Dark Zero(TM)
* Project Gotham Racing® 3
* Viva Piñata(TM)

Re:

[eison (56778)]

So if Microsoft's defective product scratches a game I have paid $60+ for, I can pay another $20 to replace the game? Which their defective product will then scratch again?
And you think this is a reasoanble solution?

If the disk exchange was free, maybe you would have a point.

Re:

[earnest murderer (888716)]

That used to be policy way (way) back in the day.

Hell, in the days before the internet publishers would send patches out on floppy discs for free (as well they should). Getting your media replaced was as easy as sending the discs back to the publisher with a return address. A week or two later and you were back in business.

Forget optical media, if your copy is legit, the publisher should replace it at cost regardless of what kind of media it is or what's on it. DVD, CD, BD, ROM it doesn't matter. You paid f

Re:Disc Return? Screw that. Disc backups.

[WidescreenFreak (830043)]

I was thinking the same thing - those damned key diskettes for the Commodore 64 and the like. They were more annoying than the booklets where you had to find word 8 of paragraph 3 on page 45 of the included adventurer's journal. At least you could photocopy the booklet at your parents' workplaces. :)

As for discs, I'd much prefer the ability to make a backup of the damned thing. But, no, no one would ever want to do that for any reason other than to pirate. No, no reason for legitimate backups at all

Re:

[Kuukai (865890)]

No, no reason for legitimate backups at all according to the Slashdot anti-pirating gestapo.

Are you from Bizarro Slashdot?

Re:

[rob1980 (941751)]

No, but it is reasonable to expect warranty service in case the car malfunctions beyond what would be considered normal wear and tear - as is the case with a console scratching the games beyond usability.

Re:

[Anonymous Cowpat (788193)]

yes, that's precisely the sort of damage that a warranty is supposed to cover and not ordinary wear & tear. If you've been using the disc for 5 years and it wears out, that's ordinary wear and tear, if you use it for 5 hours and a huge gouge appears in it, that's extraordinary damage and what you would expect a free replacement for. Or it's what I'd expect a free replacement for - I'd be happy to pay for materials and P&P if the damage was just from ordinary usage.

Re:

[XxtraLarGe (551297)]

Take care of your stuff. Disc scratches are normal wear and tear (except if the machine scratches them, but that's a defective product).

RTFA, that's what the complaint is about: the XBOX 360 IS scratching the discs...

Re:

[AKAImBatman (238306)]

A simple replacement program would do worlds of good. e.g. The ability to trade in the disk + a small processing fee (say, $5) for a new copy of just the optical disc. This wouldn't be all that different from vehicle extended warranties, which are intended to insure the life of your vehicle beyond the manufacturer's warranty.

Re:

[bahwi (43111)]

I know they had that for Jedi Knight the original, that's exactly how much I paid with my disc (have to return the original, broken one, in this case in two pieces) and $5 and they would send you a new one.

Re:

[AKAImBatman (238306)]

Yeah, it was pretty common back in the days of floppy disks. It doesn't surprise me that a few companies extended the practice to early CD games. Unfortunately, the console folks tend to think of their media as indestructible for some reason or another. That was more or less true back in the days of cartridges, but it's sure as heck isn't true with optical discs.

Yet Nintendo still prints their "backups are not necessary nor authorized" warning in the manuals. (I imagine that the other console makers print s

Re:

[Creepy Crawler (680178)]

So what are you paying for: a Disc or the Data rights for 1 copy?

Depending on your answer, that is my reason to "pirate".

Re:

[Yvan256 (722131)]

It's not a black OR white question. You are paying for both: the data rights (license/development costs/etc) and the media (manufacturing costs of the disc, box, shipping, etc).

The question is, why can't we get replacement media for free/very cheap?

Re:

[Yvan256 (722131)]

The costs also don't cover a single thing. Let's say a game costs 50$. Maybe 45$ is for the license/etc, the other 5$ is for the media.

You should have the right to get a replacement disc for 5$ since the license/etc is already paid for.

Re:

[vigmeister (1112659)]

Yes. If actually making the car costs less that 1% of the price it is selling for and if it is not a consumable good. Seldom do people actually buy the same CD/DVD over and over because they scratched the one they had. And companies do not rely on this for their profitability. And the added marketing boost might actually make it worth it all.

Cheers!

Re:

[bri2000 (931484)]

Hardly. But software companies make a big thing out of how they're selling us the data, and a license to use the data (which is not expressed to be a license to use the data until such time, if any, as the media on which that data is provided becomes unusable), rather than the media itself. Given that these companies also implement copy protection making it very difficult to make casual back-ups (which, I would argue, is the only way to really "take care of your stuff" in this context) I think, in all the c

Re:

[Doctor_Jest (688315)]

Are you channeling Jack Valenti?

That was his argument about the "license" v. "media" argument... and how the MPAA/RIAA justifies their lack of a media exchange policy.

Re:Disc Return?

[Psmylie (169236)]

"If you buy a car, is it reasonable to expect a brand new car if you return the old, scratched one?"

That argument doesn't hold water to me. We're talking about two very different things.

1. You scratch a car, it is still drivable. In fact, a scratch or even a dent or ding will not stop you from using the car as intended. A scratch on a DVD, however, can render it useless.

2. A car costs a lot of money. The material cost, labor cost, transportation cost are all extremely high. The cost of actually manufacturing a DVD is so low, it's trivial. I'm not talking about R&D for game design, package art, etc. Just the disk.

3. According to the game companies, we aren't buying a disk or a game. We're buying a license to use the ip contained on the disk. And, according to the license and associated DRM, there are several things we aren't allowed to do, like make backup copies, copy to a hard drive, whatever. Since we have already paid for a license, and are thus allowed to use the IP, why should we be required to pay the same premium again just for replacement media?

4. The material of a CD/DVD is flimsy. If content companies are serious about not wanting to allow backups and not offering free or at-cost replacement for damaged media, then they should make the media sturdy enough to not get damaged easily.

Re:

[MBGMorden (803437)]

Yes but I would naturally be able to make a backup copy of my game if not for extra meddling by the vendor to prevent such.

If the dealership welds my hood shut so I can't do maintenance (then has congress declare any attempts to cut through the welds illegal), and the car breaks down because I couldn't change the oil, you're damn right I should be able to take it back and get a new one.

Re:

[vigmeister (1112659)]

Actually, I have been thinking about this for the longest time (every time I buy a CD for my car that does not play burnt discs). It might actually be profitable if you use it as an additional selling point. Consumer satisfaction improves and that counts for something. Maybe the Blu-Ray vs. HD-DVD war can be resolved if either Sony or MS introduces this concept?

If they do, you saw it here first!!

Cheers!

Back it up

[Kawolski (939414)]

You know, a scratched disc wouldn't be such a problem if he had simply made a backup of the disc. Oh wait...

It's not illegal, damnit

[Overzeetop (214511)]

When can we get this through to people?

You are allowed to break encryption to make a backup. You can even get help from somebody else. Of course, that somebody else will ahve to go to jail, because helping someone else break the encryption is illegal - but being helped is not. Think of it as making abortion legal, but wording the law so that anybody who performs them for someone else, or sells the supplies and instruments necessary to do so, or provides instruction in such a procedure goes to jail. You can

Little known secret...

[Fx.Dr (915071)]

The 360 reads its discs with phonograph needles. It's a real bitch winding that sucker up, too.

Why sue?

[pclminion (145572)]

Why not first try demanding that MS replace the disc? The idea of suing over such a thing sounds kind of silly. Yeah, if they refuse to replace it, I guess you could try suing them. That certainly doesn't sound cheaper than buying a new disc. Why would you want to inflict a lawsuit on yourself? If it really pisses you off that bad, stop using the Xbox 360.

Re:

[MoonFog (586818)]

According to TFA, he did and they offered to replace them for a 20 dollar fee. He obviously refused and sued them for 5 million in damages instead.

Re:

[APLowman (968256)]

Whats funny is I can almost guarantee that he brought the 360 from vertical to horizontal causing the damage in the first place.

What's funny is that you don't know what you are talking about. I really hate it when people assume that just because they haven't had a problem then nobody has. I personally have gone through 8 copies of Guitar Hero 2 which I bought a scratch warranty on after the first one went ($10 at Gamestop). Each copy has the same scratch and the system is always horizontal. I read somewh

Re:

[pclminion (145572)]

The main reason why I believe they are suing is due to the fact that the Xbox 360 is apparently improperly designed, thus this is not only a case about replacing the discs but providing the consumer with a properly functioning system.

If their product sucks that bad, why keep using it? Send it back and demand your money back, and use something that doesn't suck. This guy isn't going to get $5 million -- instead he's going to end up thousands of dollars in the hole. If he thinks he's going to send some ki

Re:

[pclminion (145572)]

Class action lawsuits are great. Blaming the victim, as you seem to want to do, is lame.

I'm not blaming anybody. This guy is getting screwed by Microsoft -- why would I blame him? But when's the last time YOU sued because you bought a crappy product? Who the fuck does that? What MOST people do is stop buying from the crappy manufacturer and move on to something else.

To me this just seems like whining. "Whaa, I bought from Microsoft and their shit sucks!" Yeah well, who didn't know that?

We're not goi

What tests can be done to provie it?

[svendsen (1029716)]

So how does one prove this? If I call and say my XYZ disc is scratched because of the 360 how can I prove it was the machine scratching it from normal use vs. the machine being moved when running vs. the guy scratching it himself?

I mean if every game he puts in scratches then ya very easy to prove and he deserves to win (however not the 5 million that's insane, get some new free discs and money to cover court costs). However if it's random or just once because maybe the DVD media was manufactured wron

mod me down, but...

[starbuckr0x (1073378)]

Did MS even offer to replace this man's games? We live in a sad world when people start suing over their video games. Legal action should only be used as a last resort. There are bigger fish to fry out there (i.e. HMOs) over more serious matters. Crap like this doesn't deserve a day in court.

Re:

[Breakfast Pants (323698)]

I bought a 360 days ago, kept it horizontal, never bumped it while it was running, and called microsoft support about some hairline concentric circle scratches it was putting into my games (and resulting in read errors). What did I hear? *I* had to *pay* *them* $20 for a new copy of the game my system messed up, and I was screwed on the 3rd party title I had. What am I supposed to even do with such a replacement if they won't replace my console? Put it in and let it get scratched *again*? Obviously I

Holly shit is that advice *really* necessary?

[xtracto (837672)]

'Some gamers speculate that moving the console between vertical and horizontal positions while a disc is spinning inside could cause the scratching.

USA, the land of the obvious... is it *really* necessary to add a warning label of "DO NOT SHAKE THE CONSOLE WHILE PLAYING"??? I wonder what happens if you move your DVD player while it is playing a movie? or what about that Blender! whoooo! lets grab and shake the fucking thing while making a tasty tomato salsa!!

Now, aside of that, I am completely on the side of the guy, if the disks gets scratched after 5 hours of normal useage, then I hope they sue the hell out of Microsoft (or Sony or any other company). Sure, they are all exigent against personal backups, but then they should be held accountable for these kinds of actions. And, the fact that Microsoft has a replacement program for /their/ games does not matter as it is independent of the /other/ games or DVDs (does the X360 plays film DVDs?)...

Re:

[Discgolferusa (711112)]

yeah.... Sometimes I'm scared to live here too knowing that crazies like Michael Moore are roaming around. :)

MS backlash.

[king-manic (409855)]

Are we going to start that anytime soon. Slashdot seems to be such MS fan boys... when it comes to video games. We seem to be crucifying Sony for their Hubris shouldn't we be doing the same to MS for their arrogance in selling crappy hardware? A estimated 30% fail rate for a consumer electronic device is pretty shoddy (30% is estimated cost of replacements that MS has budgeted for). MS is already evil, already anti-consumer, and slashdot gives them a pass because?

Re:

[brkello (642429)]

Are you kidding? Slashdot is very firmly Nintendo fanboys. This is a site that hates MS but has to give credit to MS for making a good console with great online service. Yeah, the failure rate is unacceptable...and if MS didn't admit it, Slashdot would call them out. But they did admit it and said they would replace them for free for 3 years. That is really standing behind your product.

Slashdot also hates Sony for the various evil things they have done. The difference is while MS appears to be trying

360 DVD drive has a faulty design...

[Hamster Lover (558288)]

If you watched the TV clip from Dutch television you would know that the 360's optical drive is missing the bumper pads that surround the laser lens and protect discs from scratching by the lens assembly itself, a common safety feature that is present on every other optical drive ever made. Why Microsoft or the drive manufacturer's chose to omit this common optical drive design feature is a bit of a mystery to me, but it is not simply a problem with gamers moving the console while the drive is in operation (although that obviously has to be the cause in at least a few cases). 360 forums are filled with complaints from customers that have had to replace some games two or three times where they have done nothing adverse to the either the console or the discs.

Perhaps Microsoft has absolutely no control over the issue insofar as it is entirely the fault of the drive manufacturer, so we may want to give MS a bit of slack on the issue. Still, MS has to be aware of the problem and you would think that they would insist that all drives be manufactured with bumper pads.

Re:

[Svartalf (2997)]

Why Microsoft or the drive manufacturer's chose to omit this common optical drive design feature is a bit of a mystery to me, but it is not simply a problem with gamers moving the console while the drive is in operation (although that obviously has to be the cause in at least a few cases).

They're guilty of shaving fractions of a cent here, fractions of a cent there on the BOM of the units. Those partial pennies add up when you're talking about a unit count starting at .5 million and up. They shaved it in

Yeah, I agree...

[Hamster Lover (558288)]

Yeah, I agree. I have bumped the hell out of my laptop on occasion while burning a DVD and not only did the disc not scratch but the burn completed successfully. Thanks to missing bumper pads, it seems even the slightest of bumps or a game disc that is the tiniest bit out of tolerance could cause a devastating scratch. Hell, the bumper pads can't cost more than a fraction of a penny so I don't see a significant savings here for the drive manufacturer. It just doesn't make sense why the drives are manufactur

This has happened to me too - repeatedly

[dahdahdah (999584)]

My 360 has been horizontal and stationary since the day i bought it, and my disks have never been anywhere but their boxes and the dvd drive in the 360 - yet both Tiger Woods and Halo 2 have been damaged by the 360 drive.. i bought and used a disk repair machine, and had success "refinishing" the surface - but the manufacturer says to use it no more than 5 times on a dvd - and Tiger's about to undergo its fourth repair, This lawsuit was the first i'd heard of anyone else experiencing this issue (as i had li

Sony MS in this regard. amazing!

[LanMan04 (790429)]

I had a similar problem happen to me with my Playstation2, and Sony was amazingly helpful. Yes, it's true! Probably the best customer service experience I've ever had, and on an out-of-warranty PS2, no less! TWICE!

I had my PS2 start leaving nasty scratch rings on game discs, making them unplayable. I called Sony customer service, and they said (in a nutshell) that if the PS2 is eating discs, they'll repair it for free (even if the machine is out of warranty) AND cut you a check for the damaged games (full retail, even years later, and even if they weren't Sony-published games!) if you send in the games with the console. This took place in Spring 2003, more than 2 years after I bought the PS2. Everything worked like they said: I had the console back in less than a week, and a check a few weeks later.

Then, this happened a SECOND time, about a year later (2004 sometime). Same response: send in the PS2 with the damaged games, free repair+check for damaged games, and it worked like a charm. Before I sent it in, I even told Sony that I just noticed whoever repaired the machine the first time had forgotten to put a new "warranty void if removed" sticker on the PS2 case, and they said it was no problem.

I just can't believe how helpful they were in repairing my out-of-warranty stuff, the second time of which didn't even have the "warranty void if removed" sticker. Just good service, minimal muss and fuss, and I didn't even have to lie to the rep to get service. Huzzah!

Costs

[Renraku (518261)]

Obviously they aren't doing anything about it. Not offering to repair consoles that are scratching games. Dragging their feet with replacements. You know. The usual service offered by Microsoft.

They have plenty to learn to be actually successful in the console market. Its not like the PC market. People in the console market expect to be taken care of. Try getting a refund for Windows just because it caused your hardware to burst into flames.

Similar situation with Nintendo

[the_nightwulf (1003306)]

Obligatory "praise Nintendo" post follows:

I had a similar situation with my copy of Wii Sports. The machine itself didn't damage the disc, but that silly flimsy cardboard holder they package it in (hello, jewel cases are how much in bulk?) took it's toll. My conversation with Nintendo customer service went something like this:

"My copy of Wii Sports is scratched, will no longer play."
"Are any of your other games scratched or not playing correctly?"
"No, only Wii Sports, scratched by the cardboard holder."
"Ok, let me pull up your My Nintendo profile ... Ok, your new copy will be shipped tomorrow."

They probably spent a buck or two with UPS to ship it, and pennies to make the disc. The new copy is in an old jewel case that was lying around, and they gained one customer impressed by their service. Why Microsoft can't do the same is beyond me.

Re:

[jimbogun (869443)]

According to http://news.com.com/Man+sues+Microsoft+over+allege d+Xbox+360+glitch/2100-1043_3-5982759.html?tag=nl [com.com] this Reuters Story on CNET, which no longer exists, someone is suing over the overheating.This article has a little more info.http://en.wikinews.org/wiki/Microsoft_sued_du e_to_case_of_Xbox_360s_overheating [wikinews.org]

Re:

[camperslo (704715)]

There is also the issue of hot running hardware still being more likely to fail prematurely (but beyond even an extended warranty) due to the heat causing, among other things, increased thermal-cycling cracks in solder connections and deterioration of electrolytic capacitors over time.

Even an extended (3 year) warranty doesn't adequately address the problem since the hardware out there after 3 years will still have reduced value due to a shorter than normal lifetime. And those getting some relief by an ext

Re:Halo 2 Was Pathetic

[Jaqenn (996058)]

Why we put up with it and didn't bitch at MS I can't remember...

Because you played Halo 2. The thing is rife with pro-MS subliminal messages. The fact that you can't remember why you let them off the hook only proves how effective it is.

Re:

[Half a dent (952274)]

I thought that ring thing was only in the first Halo.