UT3 Won't Feature Cross Play Capability

Next Generation is reporting on comments from Epic's Mark Rein, who participated in an IRC chat with some members of the Unreal community recently. In the chat, Rein revealed that Unreal Tournament 3 will not feature the ability for PS3 and PC players to compete on the same servers. Said Rein, "We looked at how this would impact our ability to respond quickly to things happening at internet speed on the PC side of the equation and realized that this would not be in the best interests of our very loyal PC userbase because we would constantly be holding on to updates to wait until they passed cert on the console platform. Our PC fanbase is of ultimate importance to us. They are our bread and butter. We can't let them down or compromise their experience in any way to accommodate cross platform play."

What?!?

[LinuxGeek (6139)]

So, does this mean that they don't "have a lengthy certification process" for PC patches? What is the real problem anyway? If they need feature and update parity between PC and console versions, then just keep doing what they already do: don't let systems with different versions play each other, but if users (Xbox360, PS3 and PC) have the same version, then let them play! Also, they plan [linux-gamers.net] a linux client version. Will linux users not be able to play against PC users either?

The proposed brick wall between the different platform users would make this a pointless purchase for me because I would want to play against some friends that use consoles. I wonder if this would also mixed prevent lan play?

Re:What?!?

[Necreia (954727)]

PC patches don't require Sony's blessing-- that's the deal with it.

Re:

[LinuxGeek (6139)]

I'm not confused about what Sony requires, I also expect MS to have similar requirements for the 360. Part of my point was that the stated reason for not letting different platforms play against each other is pretty artificial. Simply let them play together once the platforms are the same version.

Re:What?!?

[DarkMantle (784415)]

OK, I've been following the UT3 development as closely as I can since UT 2004 came out. Now Let me summarize what I've read/heard/watched on several interviews and blogs (with Epic Employees.)

• Cross platform play is dropped for above stated reason. It works fine in the development lab but Sony must "bless" the patch before release and for the PC once it passes Epics testing it's good.
• 360 is delayed because of limitations of XBOX Live. On PC and PS3 custom maps can be downloaded from the host server. 360 only allows downloads from Live download servers, so it needs Microsoft's "blessing"
• Dedicated servers for PS3 will run on any standard PC, so you can host the server on a PC for your friends to play on even if you're PS3 is off. (this should also be true for 360, but was not commented on)
• The requirements for PC and PS3 dedicated servers has not increased much since UT2Kx, but the map textures and meshes have more detail so more RAM is recommended
• PS3 version of UT3 will support Keyboard and mouse. (I've not heard about 360 version support)
• I repeat. Cross platform play works in the dev lab so It's due to patch certifications that they are not allowing it.

That said, Epic has a history of listening to the community, raise a stink on the forums and they may add it in a patch. Also If you post about the different version restrictions, it's similar to UT2Kx where if I'm running a certain version server, and you have a different client we can't connect, so It is a valid idea.

If microsoft Live servers weren't so restricted all 3 platforms would launch at the same time. If you're a console gamer and want to make maps, then you will need to buy the PC version as well as your console version. IIRC you will be able to browse UT3 download sites for maps to directly on the PS3, but I may be wrong on that part.

Re:

[LinuxGeek (6139)]

Yeah, I RTFA, it's where the quote came from. I really hate relying on the mysterious future to maybe eventually get to play against my friends without an explicit promise to ever allow it.

I think it will make sense for me to wait and see what they will actually commit to supporting before buying any version. By that time I'll just get a used copy and save some cash. :)

Re:

[cloricus (691063)]

It is much easier for me. I just wait for the Linux client to be released and then their promise to me is forfilled.

And they had better release it as I want this game, hell I'll even pay slightly extra for a Linux cd and box!

Re:

[bcmm (768152)]

No, there is not a "lengthy certification process" required before you are allowed to release things on a PC. You just distribute it and tell users to install it.

However, if you want to release for the PS3 you need to run everything past Sony first. That is what takes time.

Will linux users not be able to play against PC users either?

Dunno what hardware you run Linux on to play games, but I for one use a PC.

Quibbling aside, there is, suprisingly, no authority who has to check everything released on Linux

Re:

[LinuxGeek (6139)]

Well, in past releases, the linux client didn't get the same priority as the windows version and the releases lagged a bit. That is the reason I made the distinction between linux and windows versions and wondered if Epic was going to allow them to interplay but leave the console players on their own little deserted island.

I'm hoping that they just make it optional for interplay between all of the platforms so the server maintainer can allow or disallow consoles instead of just creating a permanent barrier

Re:

[bcmm (768152)]

I think the issue is that the console version will lag far behind the PC version, and like nearly any multiplayer FPS, and exact version match is required to play.

If people run servers supporting both PCs and consoles, then when an update comes out for the PC, they'll have to choose whether to upgrade and lose the console players till the console upgrades, or wait for the console upgrades, and lose the PC players who eventually update because all the other servers have.

Or, worse, you could get a situation

Re:

[davermont (1001265)]

Will linux users not be able to play against PC users either?

Of course they will. Windows and Linux support the same computer architectures and implement the same network protocols. The biggest reason most game developers don't support Linux is because most games are developed using the Microsoft's DirectX graphics libraries. The Unreal Tournament series, as well as the Quake series, have always supported OpenGL, a set of open graphics libraries. Hence the name. Plus, I doubt that the server you will be playing on will be running Windows anything.

Re:

[dave562 (969951)]

I think that the underlying concern probably has to do with hacks and cheats. It's a lot easier to load third party binaries that interact with the game engine on a computer than it is on a console.

Re:

[MaineCoon (12585)]

Sony has to QA each patch themselves, and then they charge for each patch. We're not talking just a couple thousand dollars, either.

Its a pretty safe bet that the PC version will receive many patches over its lifetime, while the PS3 version will receive only those absolutely necessary.

Re:

[JNighthawk (769575)]

Linux is an OS, as is Windows. That doesn't make it "not a PC."

No, there is not a length certification process for PC patches. You also don't have to pay Sony/Microsoft to release a patch on the PC.

And finally, you will never get 360/PS3 play going, ever. Sony and Microsoft will not play nice, they provide two completely different APIs, and have completely different security/encryption aspects.

Re:What?!?

[LinuxGeek (6139)]

I thought it was more widely known that the PS3 version will support keyboard and mouse [ign.com] play. One of the reasons I finally bought a console for gaming.

Re:

[Tarlus (1000874)]

One of the reasons I finally bought a console for gaming.

Do you buy consoles for other purposes?

Re:

[LinuxGeek (6139)]

Do you buy consoles for other purposes?

My PS3 spends a bunch of time Folding@Home [stanford.edu] and also runs Ubuntu pretty well if you setup swap space. Under linux, it works well for playing media types that Sony doesn't want to support, like xvid, divx and ogg vorbis files.

Re:What?!?

[nuzak (959558)]

I think you'll be surprised. There's a generation of kids out there who pull off headshots every time using just the analog stick on high sensitivity. And analog sticks beat WASD for movement every time. Obviously some kind of hybrid controller is the answer (and there is one for the PS3, though the name escapes me)

Re:

[nuzak (959558)]

You're probably right. I still maintain that a stick beats WASD, and there are some kids freakishly good with the sticks, but the majority of people are better with the mouse. But really, if it's fun, it's fun, and the incoherent screaming of hypercompetitive Greater Internet Fuckwads (not accusing you, you're actually quite civil about it) about their control scheme serves only to amuse in a Jerry Springer kind of way.

Still, while I do find both console and PC shooters to be fun on their own merits, I am

Well, the problem is also

[zsouthboy (1136757)]

That console owners wouldn't have much fun getting owned by people that are playing with kb/mouse - so it also makes sense.

On the other hand, :(

Re:Well, the problem is also

[Mattintosh (758112)]

See, I was hoping for some epic battles between the Halo-obsessed frat-boy types on consoles vs. the diehard PC gamer types with the kb/mouse. I would be among the PC crowd bringing down some fire and brimstone upon the console twits.

It was going to be like a flamewar, only with guns.

Damn you, Epic! Damn you! (shakes fist)

Re:

[Eponymous Bastard (1143615)]

Gotta wonder if they'll use the PS3's motion sensing controller to make up for it.

Then again it's bluetooth anyway. They should just bite the bullet and include a Wiimote driver :)

Re:

[LinuxGeek (6139)]

Since they already announced KB/mouse support for the PS3 version, I was planning to play that way. One reason I bought a PS3 ( my first game console) was the ease of playing games without jumping through the Windows (and sometimes Linux) hoops of driver version hell. Now that I don't rely on windows for gaming, I run linux only systems except for my dual boot laptop.

Re:

[svendsen (1029716)]

Course you can play 4 people on the same console..can;t do that on a PC. Or 4 people with 2 being on one xbox. Or 16 people on 4 xbox's. ittle more practical if you have friends and parties.

Re:

[Chosen Reject (842143)]

I did that a couple of times. Some friends wanted to have a Halo party. So we had 11 people on 3 Xbox's. That was great. A 640x480 screen divided by 4. I got a whopping 320x240 area to see the game. Did I mention it was interlaced? Woohoo. Let me tell you, 320x240 with only half of the 240 showing up half the time is a great way to play.

But now both the PS3 and the Xbox360 can be in high def. So now we have 1920x1080 with progressive scan. So you get 4 people on that and it's much better than b

Re:

[svendsen (1029716)]

Ya but ya know what? It's still fun and hasn't stopped millions of people doing it (mario kart is another example on the n64, gamecube).

Re:

[karnal (22275)]

I played some variant of Rainbow six at a friend of a friend's house on a 360 - the problem I had with a game of that style is that the other player is seriously distracting if you're not 100% focused on your "half" of the screen - and this was 2vbots.

I've just gotten selfish I guess - I like having my own space and my own monitor when playing; my constant UT playing has gotten me in that mode.

Re:

[svendsen (1029716)]

Ya 4 friends playing on a console in the same room and you by yourself. ;-) My point of course is the social interaction aspect. And yes we do that a lot at my place. As for mad FPS skills who really cares? It's only a game

Good

[Trojan35 (910785)]

Honestly, it's not fun to play against mouse users with a controller. I prefer controller FPS's, since aiming is more of a challenge and I feel strategy comes into play more than point-click.

Controller

[jfroot (455025)]

Also worth thinking about is that responsiveness with a mouse keyboard is far greater than with a game pad. This would give anyone using a PC a definite advantage over console players.

I seem to remember hearing that when they ported Halo to the PC they had to take out a delay the enemies had in firing so it would be more challenging.

Console vs PC = bad idea for developers

[Delusion_ (56114)]

The first time a group of fairly talented console players meet up with a group of fairly talented PC players in a first-person shooter, the limitations of a console controller versus the flexibility of a mouse are going to become painfully obvious.

When I played Halo on an Xbox (not a lengthy play session, admittedly), it felt like I was playing wearing mittens.

There's something to be said about having your mouse set almost fast enough for the cursor to register your pulse - because in an FPS, being able to do a quick 360 in midair in a fraction of a second is the difference between getting a kill and being a kill.

This could lead players to assume that the PC is the platform to be on, much to the detriment of console game sales and rentals.

I don't have a use for consoles - I dislike the limitations and the controllers have been horrendous since the days of the Atari 2600 and don't care much for the kind of games that consoles do better than PCs, so while I admit I might be short-changing the console side a little, that's my take.

Re:

[HazE_nMe (793041)]

That might also get console makers/developers to support a keyboard/mouse-style controller for consoles.
To tell you the truth I would seriously consider buying a console (or three) if I could game with a keyboard/mouse-style (doesn't need to be a qwerty keyboard just a WASD-style) controller.

Re:

[mattgreen (701203)]

Exactly. When MS or Sony realizes this fact they will destroy the PC gaming market once and for all. OK, maybe not destroy, but seriously dampen it. I fully expect next-gen consoles to tout the bundled keyboard/mouse as an advantage, and ship with web browsers in so you can watch YouTube from your XBox 1080 eXtreme console. Developers will decide on a per-game basis whether to enable the keyboard/mouse combo or restrict players to gamepads. Most games would be fine on just the gamepad, but a few specialized

Re:

[Xtravar (725372)]

Will they destroy the PC gaming market? I thought part of the fun of PC gaming was seeing how much better your uber-new-hardware compared to your old stuff. Maybe that's just how I was. Maybe that's why I don't play PC games anymore.

Re:

[Tim C (15259)]

In FPS games most of the kills are made with sniper or alike weapons.

You've clearly not played the UT series much. I have, and going down to a sniper weapon is relatively rare, except on certain maps (such as Torlan, but even then you know exactly where the guy with the lightning gun is going to be stood 90% of the time)

Re:

[karnal (22275)]

You've probably not played much TAM then - this mutator alone shows me consistently that I suck with hitscan weapons, but some of the players on my clan are "teh awesomez" when it comes to swapping to lightning/sniper, smacking someone once, then ripping out the shock rifle and throwing them around.

Well...

[(arg!)Styopa (232550)]

Well, that and the fact that PC gamers would either utterly OWN console players, or they'd have to add in such an aggressive and compensatory aim-assist in the consoles that the PC players would refuse to play.

Of course, the tinfoil hatter in me speculates that the console MAKERS wouldn't have much incentive to support/encourage a product that would illustrate to their players how really crippled they are by the control systems....but that's just nuts, right?

No, no, I'm SURE it's just about them supporting their loyal fanbase and not wanting to wait for console-certification. Sure it is.

Re:

[Ant P. (974313)]

I wonder what happened to Sony's amazing original motion-sensing control system... it's got 3 times as many axes as a mouse so it _must_ be 3 times as good, right?!

Let's not forget...

[Locriology (1097777)]

...that PS3 UT3 players are not limited to the SIXAXIS controller [kotaku.com]. So there will still be keyboard-over-controller domination.

Try to keep up, people

[Senjutsu (614542)]

All the "well you wouldn't want them to compete anyways, because keyboard 0wnz controller" posters would do well to remember that keyboard/mouse support has already been confirmed for the PS3 version of UT3.

Re:

[Senjutsu (614542)]

Until a console ships with a keyboard and a mouse, most users of that console will not have one.

Yeah, keyboards and mice are notoriously hard to come by. There's only a pair of those in most every household in the country.

This has been proven over and over in the marketplace - keyboard addons for consoles have never met with success. The only way to ensure adoption is to force the issue on every model, even (especially!) on the low-end, or else the console keyboard and mouse will continue to be a niche product that most people aren't even aware exists, much less want to buy.

UT3 isn't shipping with support for some proprietary Sony keyboard, it's shipping with straight up "plug any USB keyboard or mouse into the damn USB ports on the front of the console" support. And USB keyboards and mice are not "niche peripherals"

EPIC is making the right call on this...

[Ang31us (1132361)]

You're all absolutely correct about mouse versus joystick for aiming and turning.

The other point to consider is that the entire Unreal series has been heavily modded by the PC gaming community...I recall nude skins and even black skins (invisible in the dark, except for the sniper bullets that fly off you), Simpsons mods, Mario Brothers mods, The Matrix mods, Aliens mods, etc.

Imagine the Republican uproar in Congress (e.g. Lieberman, McCain, et tu Clinton?) or the Florida courts (Jack Thompson) about little Johnny seeing a nude girl jumping around and shooting him while playing on his console...I say screw that. Keep the kiddies with their consoles locked in the original games and make them pay for mods using the Microsoft pay-for-download model...who cares if those clowns don't get community-based mods? EPIC is going to give us the PC version we want, with no filters or limitations, the way they always have.

Re:

[CastrTroy (595695)]

I've always found that the community mods was what really set PC and console gaming apart. Argue all you want about graphics, controls, sound, and every other aspect of the game that's different, and the place where PC games really shine is on community mods. This gives the games a lot more playability.

Already knew this

[iregisteredjustforth (1155123)]

It was plain to see when Mark Rein gave this interview it wasn't going to be put in: http://www.joystiq.com/2007/08/03/joystiq-interviews-unreal-tournament-3s-mark-rein/ [joystiq.com] Me and a couple of friends had a chat with him literally right after he did this interview at devcon judging by that pic, he got about 10 feet before we pounced on him lol. Very friendly guy, we just walked up to him and he chatted with us for a bit despite just having done that interview and probably already answering all the dumb questio

The PS3 version is second grade anyway...

[rbarreira (836272)]

The PS3 version will be worse than the PC version anyway, and won't include all the maps:

http://www.jolt.co.uk/index.php?articleid=9625 [jolt.co.uk]

Epic's Mark Rein has now said maps have had to be cut from the PlayStation 3 version because the next-gen system can't handle them.

Speaking to IGN, Rein commented that the maps not in the PS3 release didn't sit well on the console "because the system didn't have the resources to produce a smooth gameplay experience."

The PS3 omgpowerhouse looks less and less powerful...

Re:

[rbarreira (836272)]

http://digg.com/gaming_news/Unreal_3_Engine_on_PS3_Confirmed [digg.com]

And:

http://ve3d.ign.com/articles/news/188/Sony-Super-Engineers-Optimizing-Unreal-3 [ign.com]

Looks to me like there were some significant efforts to optimize the engine for the PS3... Heck, it's even been licensed by Sony.

Cheats

[c0d3h4x0r (604141)]

This is a good thing for the console gamers because it means they won't have to be victims of the various cheats and hacks that the PC gamers inevitably find and exploit.

Thank god!

[phorge (93821)]

At first I read this as 'UT3 Won't Feature Cosplay'.

If only we could have been so lucky.

Thats a shame

[JustNiz (692889)]

...because all us mouse/keyboard users would completely dominate anyone using a console controller.

Re:

[D'Arque Bishop (84624)]

Unreal Tournament 2004 wasn't a brand new game over Unreal Tournament 2003; it was seen as an incremental upgrade, and Epic/Atari actually offered rebates where you could send in your UT2003 discs and proof-of-purchase of UT2004, and get a rebate check back. So, technically speaking, UT2003 can be considered "UT2", and UT2004 can be considered "UT2.5".

Hope this helps...

Re:

[Lehk228 (705449)]

i never did the rebate, i figured by the time 2k4 had come out i had more than gotten my $60 worth (I bought 2k3 in november 2002 the same week my new computer came through the mail.)