Slashdot Log In
Mixed News for Nintendo, Microsoft
Posted by
Zonk
on Mon Apr 30, 2007 12:57 PM
from the take-the-bad-with-the-good dept.
from the take-the-bad-with-the-good dept.
If you were to just look at downloadable content this week, Wii and 360 owners would have a lot to cheer about. Virtual Console downloads include the (under-appreciated) Legend of the Mystical Ninja and the original Castlevania. Xbox 360 owners can finally sink their teeth into the board-game spectacular that is Settlers of Catan. Classic titles Millipede and Centipede will also be on offer via Xbox Live Arcade. Unfortunately, there are some less cheery things to discuss as well. Virtual Console sales are down, apparently, and some analysts are questioning whether Nintendo's success may be bad for the industry overall. As for the 360 ... the Elite may be bringing back some old problems. 'Red Rings of Death' have already been reported with the just-released consoles, and DRM issues with Live Arcade titles on the 'upgraded' system are making some new owners frustrated.
This discussion has been archived.
No new comments can be posted.
The Fine Print: The following comments are owned by whoever posted them. We are not responsible for them in any way.
Full
Abbreviated
Hidden
Loading... please wait.
Red Rings of Death (Score:2, Funny)
This is just. plain. stupid. (Score:5, Insightful)
What? From TFA in question, ""Nintendo has not only increased the size of the market, but it has also re-segmented it in its own favor, in our view," Mitchell wrote. "Nintendo is dominating software sales on its popular hardware platforms, leaving the publishers with a smaller slice of an only somewhat incrementally larger pie."" What this sentence says to me is that the market grew, so it's good for the industry overall, but that the current players in the market are less innovative than Nintendo and so they have a smaller slice of this generation - which is good for the consumer.
"He continued, "Moreover, we feel that the likely shorter product cycles of Nintendo's platforms puts the publishers in a permanent catch-up mode. We think the upcoming releases of Super Mario Galaxy and Metroid Prime 3: Corruption will highlight this phenomena [sic] this holiday season."" Interestingly, Microsoft had the short generation this last time around. Not Nintendo.
"What Mitchell alludes to is the tendency for Nintendo-published titles to overrun the top end of sales charts on Nintendo platforms, leaving third party publishers out of luck sales-wise." Also known as the tendency for third-party developers to be worse at making fun games than Nintendo is.
Re:This is just. plain. stupid. (Score:5, Insightful)
So Nintendo is good at making really fun and well-polished games....and they make a big profit....they increase the amount of people who might call themselves a 'gamer'....this is a bad thing?
I think the whole argument is flawed because it says to me "Nintendo makes great games, they sell well, are fun, and get new people to play them. This is a bad thing because third party developers can't sell their crappy games, and have to spend more time and resources to compete by making decent games."
Maybe the fact that Nintendo makes some good stuff shows that a lot of games/developers suck? I don't know, perhaps it is the phenomena of "wrecking the curve".
Parent
Re:This is just. plain. stupid. (Score:4, Informative)
Nope. I'm one of them. I hate consoles and the vast majority of games on the market. I dislike FPS's and most modern RPGs (as noted by my earlier dismissal of Oblivion). The DS is the first game console I've owned since I was 12 and had an Atari 2600. Nintendo's DS has games I'm interested in that aren't going to interest the usual gamer. E.g., Phoenix Wright, Hotel Dusk, Advanced Wars, Brain Age. Us "niche" market gamers were literally ignored and marginalised by the big publishers. Nintendo seems to notice us and caters to us and the fact we're flocking to Nintendo ... scares you?
This is the heart of the matter. I now cruise EB ever week keeping an eye out for interesting games, as well as visiting the game sites to keep an eye on previews. The majority of games I like were released by Nintendo. There are two exceptions (Trace Memory and Hotel Dusk), but all the 3rd party games I've seen have been ports of older titles that I never cared for anyway or "fast cash in" games on movie licenses. I mean really. On Game Rankings.com, I'm hard pressed to find a DS movie-tie-in game break 80%. The Wii and DS caters to a different crowd. You want my money, cater to me. I'll give you a hint: my favorite games are strong story-based like Infocom, Ultima IV, V and Dreamfall. I don't like thumb-twitcher games. I dislike FPS's. I do like strategy games, like Advanced Wars or Company of Heroes (which isn't on the DS obviously, but it is on my PC). I do like other games as well like the old Time Pilot arcade game. I don't see MS or Sony tripping over themselves to cater to me and my kind so Nintedo gets my dollars. THAT'S what's happening, folks.
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
I don't believe that he was implying at any point his game taste was "superior", but he was implying that it was largely forgotten. His conclusion is that one of the reasons Nintendo is doing so well is because they are releasing games that target all those gamers whose tastes were not bein
Re:It makes sense if you think of 'Coopetition' (Score:4, Informative)
Sorry if it came out that way, Yes - Nintendo provides them with the tools ahead of launch.
What I meant is that the fact that their current platforms are so 'unique' that it doesn't conform to their business model; they have to come and play against Nintendo, with their platform and with a design philosophy that is unorthodox. I don't think that for now we'll see very compelling games from 3rd parties unless they really commit to the platform.
Meanwhile Nintendo will cream the competition in their own platforms hence the assessment from the analyst.
R.P
Parent
Re:It makes sense if you think of 'Coopetition' (Score:5, Interesting)
Developers can piss themselves all day that they won't make as much as Nintendo, but it's kind of hard to have any sympathy for them when their mantra is to develop for one console, and port to the rest (and ones like EA weren't even on board till just recently!). Of course people aren't going to buy Prince of Persia in droves. It's been out for the previous generation of consoles for how many years? Developers need to just stop complaining, and stop giving excuses so they can get out from underneath Nintendo's shadow, and *gasp* do something new & interesting.
Parent
Re:This is just. plain. stupid. (Score:4, Insightful)
This is because Nintendo has been the underdog in the last couple of system releases and didn't merit the attention of the more polished hits. Who wants to put the effort in releasing a stellar game for a system with a limited audience? Nintendo had to put more effort into their first party games to keep themselves afloat. If they didn't, they wouldn't be around this long because most of the third party games were just trash and rehashes. Now that the Wii is selling so well, we may finally start to see an influx of quality 3rd party software. And they will sell well as long as the games are exclusive.
Truth be told, Nintendo dominates the software sales because their games are that good. Did Resident Evil 4 sell badly?
Parent
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:This is just. plain. stupid. (Score:4, Informative)
Buh? The DS isn't a replacement for the GBA. Nintendo has continually stated it's a "third pillar", and as such, should continue to exist and be supported. After all, last I checked, the GBA wasn't being discontinued any time soon, and games continue to be published for the platform.
Further, the release of revised handheld models has nothing at all to do with generational churn, so I don't even know why you brought that up.
Parent
Re: (Score:2)
That's bull... (Score:2)
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
Um, are you talking about the same GBA that still outsells [neogaf.com] the PS3?
Well perhaps it is bad for consumers (Score:2, Interesting)
Point One: I do not like nintendo games. I own a DS but not single nintendo developed game. Worse, all the games listed as being developed by nintendo leave me cold as well. So if other publishers, who make games I do like, can't survive, then I loose out.
Nintendo becoming the biggest player is only good if you like nintendo games.
I think people still expect that the DS and Wii are intermediate consoles, the DS was even claimed NOT to be the next gameboy but a in between. This might have been nintendo try
Re:Well perhaps it is bad for consumers (Score:5, Insightful)
That's not true. It's also good if you like the way Nintendo does business, or if you like the way Nintendo makes controllers, or if you like the way Nintendo makes systems. Because if they are on top, everyone will want to emulate or out-do them.
When one player who has been on the bottom gets on top, it usually leads to change.
Some change, at this point, could only be positive. The games industry is in a serious state of stagnation.
HDTV acceptance doesn't affect the Wii significantly for a number of reasons. The first reason is that the Wii is not an HD player, while still being cheap enough to purchase alongside one. The second reason is that HD might go nowhere, as you say. The third reason is that game consoles typically make shitty video players with the included software; for example the PS2 was an amazingly horrible DVD player (slimline is better but still not very good.) And in the case of the Xbox it's an external peripheral. External peripherals for video game systems have never succeeded. Even if it sets new records in that regard it will be an extremely niche product.
I don't see the problem here. Third parties ARE making Wii games, and they are more interested in making games for Nintendo in this generation than they have been of late, largely because of the Wii's massive popularity. And they are less interested in developing for Sony than ever before, largely because of the way Sony has totally blown their attempt to capture this generation so far. Whereas Microsoft is still a hit-and-miss sale to developers. They like the tools, they fear doing business with Microsoft, both very logical stances.
It can only be seen as bad for the industry if you don't ask Blizzard.
If the market grows, it's good for the industry. "Good for the industry" doesn't require that it's good for all the players, you know. If it truly led to a monopoly that would be one thing, but we all know that's not happening here.
Also, no one with a fucking clue can seriously argue that Nintendo has only slightly increased the size of the gaming market. The GBA SP and later the Wii (and the DS lite of course) have done more to legitimize adult gaming than anything all the other console manufacturers put together have done since the dawn of time (as we measure it on game consoles anyway.)
This is a stupid argument and you are stupider for having suggested it, and I am stupider for having read it. Microsoft has a monopoly position, Nintendo does not, stop using this stupid argument, thank you.
There is too much money for anyone to give up and unless the other players deserve to die, they will figure out that some innovation is what is required in the market.
Microsoft will probably be there for at least one more generation. There is no reason for Sony to give up at this point. Nintendo will not have a monopoly by the end of this generation, or the next. I am not an atomic playboy.
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
N bad for publishers? (Score:5, Insightful)
Re: (Score:2)
I'm not sure about newer consoles like the Gamecube and Wii, but as far as I've always known, there are hardly any 3rd party development houses (compared to how many there are for Sony and MS). So the way I understand this is that somebody is trying to look at the differences of profit between 1st party dev house(s) and 3rd party dev houses as absolute numbers, and then trying to say that because
A few thoughts... (Score:4, Insightful)
How is this a new trend? Unless I'm mistaken, I believe Nintendo has always dominated the sales charts of their own platforms, and deservedly so - why buy a generic licensed platformer when you can get a Mario title that's been polished to near perfection?
He continued, "Moreover, we feel that the likely shorter product cycles of Nintendo's platforms puts the publishers in a permanent catch-up mode. We think the upcoming releases of Super Mario Galaxy and Metroid Prime 3: Corruption will highlight this phenomena [sic] this holiday season."
Shorter product cycles are a bad thing? Since the Wii is less powerful than the PS3 or the Xbox 360, I'd have to imagine that any experience the publishers get on those platforms would carry over nicely to the Wii's eventual successor. Besides, it looks like - for the time being, at least - Nintendo's "less powerful hardware for lower price" strategy is working far better than Sony's "buy it now for $600 and we'll support it in ten years, we promise" plan of action.
Moreover, Mr. Todd Mitchell seems to be missing something key here: while this may not be the most favorable trend for third party publishers, Nintendo is going to make buckets of money from all of this. Since he's an investment analyst, you think he'd want to point out the bright side there, that being that Nintendo is going to make you rich and that, perhaps more importantly, Nintendo succeeding in this generation - even if entirely due to their own titles - means there will still be some form of a gaming industry in five years instead of the supposed game industry crash [slashdot.org] that is supposed to happen in the near future.
Re:A few thoughts... (Score:4, Interesting)
As the owner of a lovely ten shares of Nintendo ADRs, I can say that it WILL make you wealthy.. mine are up about 125% (yes, ONE HUNDRED and twenty five percent) since last March. If only I had more than ten.
Parent
Nintendo is bad for Publishers... kinda one sided (Score:4, Interesting)
I say let the big companies fail, I'm hope I don't have to see Madden 2015 advertised...
Huh? (Score:4, Interesting)
Um... Isn't that what virtually any business aims to do? You don't think Microsoft and Sony are trying to do the same?
Although I haven't been following video games nearly as actively as I used to (read: at all), I thought Nintendo was making great strides to bring third parties on this generation, or at least claiming to.
Nintendo is the Future, Dammit! (Score:4, Interesting)
Okay, I may buy 'this is bad for all the people doing things the old way', but this is only because the Wii and DS are two radically different paradigms. Once these interfaces take off, we may see the WiiMote and Nunchuk turn into a smaller, sleeker 'WiiWand' with 'Wiiry Stone' attachment, or the DS Lite become the DS Nano (or maybe the DS Slim, or DS Micro, DSleek . . . you get the idea.)
Nintendo is unlikely to change the interfaces AGAIN so soon, simply because these were so dramatically different from the norm, and I estimate that even if they update the hardware within the next few years, what we'll be seeing are not new systems in the vein of the PS3 where the engine development is the radical difference, but rather changes in form factor.
Expect crazy leaps of intuition like a WiiDR pad or DS games that are both DS-playable but have DS++ elements for whatever the DS's successor is, by all means, but since the most drastic part of Nintendo's great leap forward has already been accomplished, we shouldn't see another new switch in the actual computational hardware anytime soon.
Re: (Score:2)
is a BAD thing?!
If it means an endless stream of Mini/Party game collections disguised as real games, maybe. Not that there's anything wrong with such games, but I needs me some Oblivion & Mass Effect level gaming as well.
Although I have started looking for a Wii to play Super Paper Mario as I've been in a retro mood lately. And Super Mario Galaxy looks to be shaping as a digital acid trip.
I think some developers are just whining because they may not be able to make a living cranking out WW2 shoo
Re: (Score:2)
Better yet, let's make a Kart racing game out of Medal of Honor, then pitch that to Hollywood to make a crappy movie about. It'll make BILLIONS!
In other news... (Score:5, Insightful)
In other news, analysts made the shocking discovery that the Nintendo Gamecube had the least amount of support from third party publishers leaving Nintendo-published titles to overrun the top end of sales charts on the Gamecube.
Not quite sure I agree with article summary here (Score:5, Informative)
My guess is that the average user isn't going to care a whole ton about the VC. The hardcore gamer might because they are trying to play games they never got to play before or are trying to consolidate their retro catalog legally into one location. I would be willing to be that the initial buyers for the Wii were in-fact hardcore gamers or previous gamers, not necessarily the soccer moms and grandma's who are now starting to actively seek the system for themselves. These newcomers to the system probably have less interest in the VC than in buying the Wii mostly for Wii Sports and a couple other titles. Finally, anyone who's been following the VC lineup knows that signal to noise ratio hasn't been incredibly high. There's a handful of must-haves on that list, but there's a lot of games waiting in the wings for some reason or other (my theory is to help keep gamers going if there's a big drought of Wii games).
A better description of what's happening is that sales are slowing or plateauing, not "down". I don't think Nintendo and its partners really care anyways. 1.8 million units sold with price tags >= $5 and only bandwidth costs to consider is nothing to scoff at.
New gamers not digging the lackluster VC... (Score:2)
EXACTLY! I got a Wii at launch, and I a
Re:New gamers not digging the lackluster VC... (Score:4, Interesting)
One of the problems the Wii faces is that this is Nintendo's first major foray into areas that Microsoft came in, established, and is currently doing a "2.0" with. It seems to me that the VC is essentially Nintendo in the wading pool with online distribution, they're just trying it out for now. Same with online connectivity. Just be patient is what I keep telling people.
I still haven't explored purchasing anything through the VC yet. I have a sizable NES, SNES and N64 collection but they've got me very close. If the prices were like $1-2 less I would seriously drop the money no questions asked.
Parent
Re: (Score:2)
Shop around for the Points cards then. Around the holidays CircuitCity was offering $5 off any Wii accessory $19.95 or more. This was also good for the '2000' Wii Points cards, so I was able to get a few of those. I haven't seen the word "Wii" and "discount" in the same flyer for
Re: (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:Not quite sure I agree with article summary her (Score:2)
Success a bad thing? (Score:2, Interesting)
Translation: "The old third party "same port across the board" style of developing doesn't work in this generation, we'd have to change the way we do things, but we don't want to or want to know how, so we will just whine about it instead."
Games are supposed to be about fun, not profit. If the game is fun, it will sell. if the Wii's first party games hurt Third-party devs' profits, it's not the Wii's fault!
Could it be that third-party devs would have to... go
Nintendo's Software Dominance (Score:4, Insightful)
Analysts Are Stupid (Score:3, Funny)
I'm late to the party here and I'm terribly sorry if what I'm about to say has already been said... I just need to say this.
Goddamn, analysts are dumb!
So, apparently Nintendo is not only adding new people to the market, but they are killing all the old ones
Also, it is apparently Nintendo's fault that 3rd parties refuse to do something original, rather than slapping Wii controls onto a PS2 port and calling it good. Next I suppose it will be Nintendo's fault that publishers do heap piles and piles of shovelware onto the DS and Wii in the hopes of making a quick buck. Absolutely ridiculous.
Re:Listen to them cry now! (Score:5, Interesting)
And how is this any different from Nintendo's business strategy from past generations?
Parent
Re:Listen to them cry now! (Score:4, Funny)
Parent
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Direct-X games that don't run on the 360 generate *zero* revenue for Microsoft, and Microsoft only cares about them enough to prevent a "lack of games" opening a chink in their marketshare-protecting armor. If Xbox were a lever for Direct-X adoption instead of Direct-X being a lever for Windows adoption, Direct-X 10 would hav
Re: (Score:2)
I still have my first generation 360 from the original launch supply and have had none of these issues. Perhaps that is unusual in some circles
Re: (Score:3)
Perhaps there is a flaw in the design that causes failure, but given the none/multi dichotomy of the situation (and I say this as somebody who is as anti-Xbox as you're likely to find without being a fanboy for another platform) the question I want to know the answer to is "What are these people doing differently to their system that is causing it to break?". Sure, maybe they're victim to a fault
Re: (Score:2)
It's possible, perhaps, that the 360 is very susceptible to noise on the incoming power line, to the point that such noise causes permanent damage to the device. Is that a problem with the power system in many homes? Maybe. Is the power company going to fix it? No. Should Microsoft fix their product to be more durable? Yes. (Well, yes, if it would cost less than replacing
Re: (Score:2)
Everybody you see posting abou
Re: (Score:2)
Maybe this is happening, and maybe it isn't, but 'reports' are all the evidence you get from any media outlet.
It seems to me that given how many of these consoles that get produced, the question isn't whether or not some of them are failing. The question is "How many are failing?"
Re: (Score:2)
Yeah, but how do you distinguish real negative news from FUD?
Do you think Tycho from Penny-Arcade [penny-arcade.com] tends to spread anti-360 FUD?
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
I own a launch unit Xbox 360 as well, I've never had any problems, but I also maintain the largest (if not the only) FAQ on the subject of Red Rings of Death [xbox-scene.com] (at least it's the largest one I know of).
There is no denying that a large number of Xbox 360 consoles have gone belly up, I see that crap first hand on a da
Re: (Score:2)
Well, there were the Wii system update failures that bricked the systems early on, and the reports of PS3 kiosk failures.... Also, there has been no mainstream news of the 360 issues...
Anecdotally,
Re: (Score:2)