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Xbox 360 Updates Social Features, Back Compat

Posted by Zonk on Wed Nov 28, 2007 11:33 AM
from the new-toys-for-everyone dept.
XBox (Games)
Microsoft is gearing up for another big update to Xbox Live, and soon they'll be offering a friend of a friend feature that will allow users to peruse their friends' friend lists. It's a voluntary service, and is gated by your age to avoid any parental fears. If you'd rather turn it off ahead of time, they already have a dedicated site set up for that purpose. (Gamertag login required.) That update will be dropping on December 4th. Relatedly, they're also rolling out a whole bunch of new backwards compatability options for your old Xbox games. Highlights include support for: Baldurs Gate: Dark Alliance, Burnout 2: Point of Impact, Forgotten Realms: Demon Stone, Indiana Jones And The Emperors Tomb, Star Wars: Jedi Starfighter, Syberia II, The Bard's Tale, Worms 3D. There's also support for a slew of sports titles going all the way back to 2003.
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[+] On the Moral Consequences of Gaming 170 comments
N'Gai Croal and the LevelUp blog are collaborating with the popular UK games magazine Edge, and late last month we discussed the emotional impact of games. Or, more realistically, the lack thereof. This week N'Gai has been exploring what could be done to reinforce that emotional impact, and perhaps take those choices to a moral level. "What if developers attempted to bring social sanction into the experience? What if your Gamertag were designated 'Child Killer' for having murdered [Bioshock's] Little Sisters--or 'Good Samaritan' for having saved them? Microsoft recently announced its plans to add the Facebook and MySpace-inspired feature of allowing you to browse your friends' Friends Lists; what if everyone on your Friends List were notified each time you killed a Little Sister--or every time you rescued one--like the Status Updates on Facebook?"
[+] Xbox Live Fall Update Drops Tomorrow 78 comments
Game|Life has a rundown on the Fall Update for Xbox Live. In addition to the Friend of a Friend feature we discussed last week, you'll also be seeing the first of the Xbox Originals download titles, a few Arcade games will be a bit lower cost, and a new 'family timer' option will let parents put caps on service use time. "You'll also be able to expand your bio, providing more detailed information about yourself to the Xbox Live community ... apparently I wasn't the only one going blind trying to watch those itty-bitty move previews, because now you'll be able to see them full-screen. The update also comes with "enhanced video codec support," which means that your DivX and Xvid files will play on your 360." Remember, if you don't want everyone seeing the folks on your Friends List you need to change your settings now. Plus, everybody should snag Psychonauts; make Tim Schafer a happy man for Christmas.
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  • Actually, the big news for me in that list is "Lord of the Rings: The Third Age". I've been itching to replay that for months, but now that I've given away my original Xbox, had no way of doing so. It was an interesting and ambitious attempt at making a Final Fantasy-style RPG out of the LOTR franchise and even though it didn't work perfectly, the production values were high enough that I'm looking forward to going back to it.
    • All the games that I wished were on the back-compat list have been backwards compatible for a while now. Except for one. I recently bought Deus Ex: Invisible War (for something like $4) knowing that it wasn't on the back-compat list but hoping that it would be on the next release. I've always been disappointed about that, especially since there are a few Barbie games that are backwards compatible. I have an xbox at home, but the place it was in is too dusty and some dust got in the tray, and now no discs ar
      • The Barbie games (and other crap) in the list probably got BC almost for free because they used the same core game engine as .
        That or there were enough games on the same engine to justify the BC work for that engine.

  • Surprising (Score:4, Insightful)

    by Nerdfest (867930) on Wednesday November 28 2007, @11:41AM (#21505991)
    that they're still adding backwards compatibility 2 years after release. The real need for it diminishes as time passes, I would think. Personally, I'm waiting for some better video codec support so I don't need to transcode streamed video.

    • Re: (Score:2, Insightful)

      by OK PC (857190)
      Personally I'm of the opinion that if it uses the Xbox name then it should be compatible with Xbox titles. Same for PlayStation.
      It is nice to see them continue support for Xbox titles, I am enjoying going through the games I missed first time around. Especially seeing as Sony seem to have given up on backwards compatibility. On the flip side, they do still sell the PS2 and you can't say the same for the Xbox.
      As a side note, Xbox games seem to difficult to get hold of/expensive. For example, I have seen KOTO

      • Re:Surprising (Score:5, Insightful)

        by king-manic (409855) on Wednesday November 28 2007, @12:39PM (#21506935)

        It is nice to see them continue support for Xbox titles, I am enjoying going through the games I missed first time around. Especially seeing as Sony seem to have given up on backwards compatibility. On the flip side, they do still sell the PS2 and you can't say the same for the Xbox.
        PS3 has 1 version / 5 versions without backwards compatibility (BC), 2 of the remaining have ~80% BC, the other 2 have 90+% BC.

        360 has 1 version / 4 versions without BC, the remaining 3 have ~40% BC.

        Wii is ~99% BC with GC titles.

        I don't see Sony being against BC but they did trim it to reduce the price. MS has paid lip service to BC but isn't really that into it.

        • Re:Surprising (Score:5, Insightful)

          by NoodleSlayer (603762) <ryan AT severeboredom DOT com> on Wednesday November 28 2007, @01:18PM (#21507467) Homepage
          But really isn't that into it?!?!?

          You realize that they are writing this emulator without having access to any of the specs for the CPU or GPU that were in the original xbox. It's not as simple are writing a 1:1 emulator simply because they don't have access to all the information to do that, they're effectively reverse engineering the original xbox to make sure that each game works. Because the emulation isn't perfect they don't have as large of a percentage of games, and they individually test each one. The fact that two years after release they're still updating the backwards compatibility list and still working on the emulator is pretty impressive in of itself.

          Not to mention that the Xbox emulator on the Xbox 360 renders the game at a higher resolution then the original xbox did, with Anti-Aliasing to boot. This is why Xbox games typically look better on the Xbox 360. Overall that emulation software on the Xbox 360 is a engineering marvel that it works as well as it does with what typically is some of the most hardware bound performance intensive code.

          • But really isn't that into it?!?!?

            You realize that they are writing this emulator without having access to any of the specs for the CPU or GPU that were in the original xbox. It's not as simple are writing a 1:1 emulator simply because they don't have access to all the information to do that, they're effectively reverse engineering the original xbox to make sure that each game works. Because the emulation isn't perfect they don't have as large of a percentage of games, and they individually test each one. The fact that two years after release they're still updating the backwards compatibility list and still working on the emulator is pretty impressive in of itself.

            The choices of CPU/GPU more or less justifies my comment. As well 2 years and ~40%, it started out at ~30% with marginal improvements. Event hat 30% was iffy. Nintendo showed they were serious about BC (or unconcerned with performance) by using an extended GC chipsets for the wii. Sony included the hardware in their machines and wrote a CPU emu.

            • I tried looking this up with the wayback machine, but I am having troubles connecting to it. Regardless:

              According to wikipedia, the xbox 360 started out with 213 games that were backwards compatible. There are now 478 games that are backwards compatible. It looks like the Xbox had 900-1000 games written for it. So, it would seem that the xbox360 originally had roughly 20% of games backwards compatible. Now it apparently has 51% of games backwards compatible. Custom writing an emulator and testing it out for

          • ...without having access to any of the specs for the CPU or GPU that were in the original xbox.

            I call BS. They used slightly modified Intel and nVidia consumer level chips. It's not like it's some 30 year old processor that was designed on a cocktail napkin.

            http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xbox [wikipedia.org]

            I find it hard to believe they simply pitched ALL technical reference materials for the orig. Xbox.

              • Intel is the easy part. They publish full specs for their processors on their website. You can download the PDF or even ask them to send you free printouts. Also, remember that Microsoft bought the company that made VirtualPC for the Mac. There's your x86 on PPC emulation right there.

                NVidia is the harder part, but remember, all the games are coded to DirectX, which MS sets the standard for.

                I'd say the hardest issue is NVidia avoiding patents.

        • Re: (Score:3, Insightful)

          by Toonol (1057698)
          I don't see Sony being against BC but they did trim it to reduce the price. MS has paid lip service to BC but isn't really that into it.

          But look at the trend. Backwards compatibility on the PS3 is going away... on the 360 it's slowly getting better.

        • Re:Surprising (Score:5, Informative)

          by rtechie (244489) on Wednesday November 28 2007, @05:20PM (#21510757)
          Many posters don't seem to grasp what happened with the original XBOX.

          When building the original XBOX, MS choose to make a very "PC like" design that was essentially a specialized Windows PC. To save time and money, rather than developing their own hardware they outsourced that task to Nvidia and Intel who adapted existing parts (the NV25 and the Celeron 733) to the XBOX. Crucially however, they did not sell the production rights of those parts to Microsoft.

          Fast forward a few years. The XBOX is selling nicely and Microsoft, like most console manufacturers, wants to reduce the price of the console to sell more units. Unfortunately for MS, since they don't own the rights to the GPU and couldn't reverse-engineer it, Nvidia has them over a barrel on pricing and they refuse to reduce the cost of the GPU (I'm told they were ballsy enough to actually try to raise it). Intel was much more willing to negotiate for the CPU (because they had competitors, like AMD), but that was useless without the GPU.

          Because of their inability to cost-reduce the XBOX, Microsoft kills it prematurely. That's why absolutely NO XBOX games were release after 2006. Microsoft actually paid developers to have them move their games in development to the 360.

          Fast forward to the launch of the 360: Without being able to include compatible hardware in the 360, MS is forced to rely on software emulation for backwards compatibility. Emulating Intel and Nvidia hardware on a Power4 system with an ATI GPU it even more difficult than it sounds. Consequently, backwards compatibility on the 360 is less that stellar.

          You could blame Microsoft for this situation because they failed to ensure they held the rights to the Nvidia GPU, but personally I blame NVIDIA for being greedy. It hurt them in the end. Ever wonder why all the next-generation console have ATI GPUs? It's because of the way NVIDIA burned MS on the XBOX.

          • >Ever wonder why all the next-generation console have ATI GPUs?

            No. The RSX chip in the PS3 is an nvidia part.
          • > Emulating Intel and Nvidia hardware on a Power4 system with an ATI GPU it even more difficult than it sounds.

            I doubt they needed to do any significant GPU emulation -- that's what DirectX is for. I suspect the games that used nVidia-specific graphics routines are probably the same ones that have graphical artifacting, lowered framerate, or just don't have compatibility. As for the x86, it's a really well-known target, and Microsoft bought the leading PPC->x86 emulator company.

            The BC updates are al

      • Personally I'm of the opinion that if it uses the Xbox name then it should be compatible with Xbox titles.
        Then why aren't PCs that run Windows Vista compatible with PC disks from the early 1980s? And why can't my Nintendo GameCube run Nintendo cartridges from the late 1980s? And why are replacement parts for Toyota Prius automobiles from older model years not necessarily compatible with newer vehicles?
        • Windows Vista will still run Win16 software. Results will certainly vary when that software tries interacting with other software or hardware that wasn't around in its day.

          The Nintendo GameCube is a different brand than the older consoles, so you wouldn't expect it to run the older games. Anything with the GameBoy name in it does run older titles in the same line though. NES / SNES you could have expectations for, and in fact Nintendo did try to make them compatible but didn't succeed.

          The Prius comparison d

    • Re:Surprising (Score:4, Informative)

      by twistedsymphony (956982) on Wednesday November 28 2007, @11:58AM (#21506297) Homepage
      well, they're rolling down the ability to download Xbox 1 games thought the marketplace soon. Reports indicate that these will be little more than disc rips of the original games running on the BC feature of the console.

      As nice a media piece about them still "caring" about BC on the 360 at this point I have no doubt it's driven by money... the more they support in BC the more they can pad their Xbox 1 download catalog when they roll it out (probably around the same time as the update).
      • "As nice a media piece about them still "caring" about BC on the 360 at this point I have no doubt it's driven by money... the more they support in BC the more they can pad their Xbox 1 download catalog when they roll it out (probably around the same time as the update)."

        WHAT? Companies are motivated by money? Whoa!
          • I may be mistaken, but I think the external storage can only be used for media. The games are wrapped in DRM, I think. As usual, I may be completely wrong.
            • You are completely right but for the wrong reason. DRM on the files has nothing to do with why external media cannot be used... External USB mass storage devices are READ ONLY and the console simply doesn't look in those locations for game content. So not only can you not download to those devices, if you managed to put game content on them (using any number of readily available and legal PC tools) the console will never check for content there.

              As for those PC tools you can go to your local BestBuy or Ga
              • They're tied to the console AND your Xbox Live profile (and to be clear everyone who downloads the game will have an Xbox live profile and most Xbox Live profiles do not have an associated subscription fee despite popular belief).

                This mean that YES you CAN take your hard drive to another console and play your downloaded games but you'll have to also sign into your Xbox Live account to validate that you're the content owner. The problem comes when you try to use it on the new console and you don't have in
    • Speak for yourself. Demon Stone is a really fun game, and I've actually wanted to play it again for awhile now but I'm far too lazy to bring up my Xbox from the basement, find the VGA adapter for it, plug it all in and play. Dark Alliance too, both of these games are really fun if you have a buddy over to do co-op with. (I can't speak for the other titles in this update, as I haven't played them.)
    • Not for those of us who went from PS2 to XBox 360, which I suspect is a good chunk of folks. I never got to play KOTOR for example (has that made the list yet?), and the fun I'm having with Mass Effect makes me want to go check out earlier Bioware offerings. I also finally got to play Morrowind (after loving Oblivion) thanks to the backward compatibility. Heck, I only just played Halo *1* this year. :)

      • Re: (Score:3, Informative)

        by Osty (16825)

        I never got to play KOTOR for example (has that made the list yet?), and the fun I'm having with Mass Effect makes me want to go check out earlier Bioware offerings

        KOTOR 1 and 2 as well as Jade Empire (same engine as KOTOR, more of an active battle system similar to Mass Effect except with martial arts instead of guns) have been supported on BC for quite some time now. If you haven't played them, you really must. Especially if you're enjoying Mass Effect.

        • Jade Empire was a real surprise for me. If you like martial arts, (light) philosophy, and RPGs; it's a very good game.
  • especially considering how well Sony offered complete backward compatibility so perfectly on the PS2. Nowadays, it's lost so much relevence that the "feature" is almost non-existent on the PS3 and exists only an incrimental add-on for the most mediocre of titles on the 360. (Legal issues on who owns what on the original Xbox's hardware, not withstanding...)

    The only console to have it right on this generation is the Wii. (Which, strangely enough, may be why it's still doing so well despite the surprising lar

    • Re:This is weird... (Score:5, Interesting)

      by -Neko- (67564) on Wednesday November 28 2007, @01:22PM (#21507515) Homepage

      especially considering how well Sony offered complete backward compatibility so perfectly on the PS2


      It's not. The PS2 ran the same code (common MIPS architecture processor) and had the same IO controller for audio and controller access as the original Playstation. Compatibility was assured through hardware. The graphics controller was also superficially similar - enough at least to let your games run, just faster and with some blending tacked on top.

      Nintendo hit the same concept with the Wii being able to play Gamecube games - it practically *is* a Gamecube, just faster.

      The PS3 also includes some of the original components of the PS2 for compatibility's sake although they are starting to get rid of those right now, and they never worked so well. The Xbox 360 ain't even slightly like the original Xbox. New CPU, new IO, new graphics controller.. the whole thing is software emulation. It should be said that Sony and Microsoft have different compatibility goals - Microsoft want to keep Xbox owners happy by letting them use their old games and back catalogue (Nintendo have the same goal). After all in a world where Halo and Halo 2 (or Metroid Prime and Echoes) did so well, do you really want gamers to start from the third game and lose the ability to play the saga from the start? :)

      Sony have decided nobody wants to buy a $500 console to play 8 year old games so they're ditching the feature. Since they continue selling the PS2 at ridiculously affordable prices, there's no point making the PS3 compatible. It's not like you can still buy a Gamecube or Xbox brand new, though, these days.

    • The only console to have it right on this generation is the Wii.
      It's right, but still not perfect. The GameCube can play Game Boy, Game Boy Color, and Game Boy Advance games through an accessory. No such accessory is made for Wii. Nor can the (admittedly few) GameCube games with online support go online because the Wii's Wi-Fi chip doesn't look like a GameCube LAN adapter.
      • To be fair, complaining about the Playstation backwards compatibility, and comparing it next to the Xbox, isn't a fair fight. The Xbox doesn't even come close, especially if you look at the generation 1 PS3's (60 gig, with hardware based emulation).

        While a new 40GB PS3 has NONE whatsoever.
  • We all know all those added titles was just a cloud around the real title, The Guy Game. Some developer wanted his child porn [kotaku.com].

    • Re:So now, with a little work (Score:5, Funny)

      by vonPoonBurGer (680105) on Wednesday November 28 2007, @12:00PM (#21506347)
      I hear if you frag a friend, then a friend of that friend, then a friend of that friend, and so on to a depth of six people, you will eventually frag Kevin Bacon.
      • No, that's only on the PC.

        On XBox Live, if you frag a friend, then a friend of that friend, and so on to the depth of six people... Kevin Bacon eventually calls you "teh gey" whilst sounding like a thirteen year old boy with hormonal issues.
      • Even better. I'm going to send out a letter saying my friend is a lawyer and that this really works! Have all your friends send you a dollar, then all their friends' friends send you a dollar, to six degrees, you'll be a millionaire!.. or at least that what the letters they keep sending me say.
    • they might get fixed... with every update that adds games they usually improve just as many past profiles as well. With that said PGR2 is a great title but owning a 360 I'd much rather be playing PGR4 these days.
    • They list it as "Compatible"... which means it'll run.

      It's REALLY BIZARRE to play though, since every light source in the level can be seen through the walls... something in their emulated video code is really messed up.

    • Re: (Score:2, Offtopic)

      by mollymoo (202721)

      But really what I'd appreciate is some sort of network inspection, topology tool so you could figure out who was the best choice to host in a game. Even in circumstances when there's not much to do about a problem, like latency, it'd be better to just know what and where the problem was, as opposed to just observing it and wondering about its origin. Not to mention, all the data put together would give a very good measure of network performance offered by the various ISPs.

      Wouldn't it be even better if fo

      • Re: (Score:2, Insightful)

        by C0rinthian (770164)
        $4.16/month is substantial? Seriously?
        • It is when you aren't getting anything in return for it (that you shouldn't be getting for free). Paying for online access isn't wrong... paying for online access, when Microsoft doesn't even go so far as to host dedicated servers, is fucking absurd. At that point, it's devolved into "We're Microsoft, and we take your money just cause we can!".
            • If Microsoft isn't using your money to provide dedicated servers... what on earth are they providing in exchange for said money? Seems to me that they're taking it because they can, ie, fucking absurd.
                • Yes, any company is free to create dedicated servers. Yes, $5/month isn't much. The point is... what, exactly, is Microsoft providing us with in exchange for our money (however little or much it may be)? As far as I can tell, the answer is... nothing. They're taking our money because they can. That's the absurd thing, and I'll get worked up about that whether it's $50/year or $.50/year! When I provide money to a company, I expect something in return for my payment, not abuse of a monopoly position.

        • Re: (Score:2, Informative)

          by mollymoo (202721)
          A 3-month game card (the link I found to the 12 month was broken and the "sign up" link on the UK XBox site does nothing when I click on it) costs £15 (~$30). And for something you get for free (PS3, DS, Wii) or for $10 per year (Gamespy) elsewhere, yes, $5-10 a month is substantial.
          • My sub with Live is $50/year. Works out to $4.16/month. Just the integrated voice chat is worth that, IMO. The DS/Wii doesn't have anything remotely comparable to Live. I can't comment on PS3.
          • I own a Wii. I love the Wii. You can't compare the online functionality to that of the 360 with a straight face, can you?
      • paying again for the network connection i already have paid for is senseless. I boycott xboxlive gold... ridiculous that they charge us for servers. servers are what get us to buy/pay-for the game. any PC game company does this for free - or.. lets you peer-to-peer it or run your own server for free...

        even the dumb video camera requires xboxlive gold subscription. on PS3 you can video conference over standard network connection - no subscription... and i hate ps3, but they have this one thing right.
        I

        • But Microsoft don't price competitively. They charge 5-12 times what GameSpy charge for the same service and infinitely more than Sony and Nintendo. $5-10 a month would be reasonable for access to high quality hosted servers and $0 per month would be reasonable to allow you to play directly using an XBox as the server. AFAIK, there is no option but XBox Live Gold if you want to play on-line, you can't just type in the IP of your clan server or find a free, public server.

          Bittorrent is good for P2P and no

    • Re: (Score:2, Informative)

      by Bruiser80 (1179083)
      It sounds like you should be buying your Xbox live accounts on the per-month basis. This will prevent you from purchasing a service you won't use.

      Now a what-if for you: What if you play a bunch of multiplayer games on a regular basis? Should that person be charged more because they play different titles? Better yet - why not pay according to time used - that would work perfectly with my AOL dial-up account!

      All joking aside, Xbox live offers a service that allows people to have a highly reliable online
    • Word on the street is that Julia Roberts is a big Halo 3 fan. I'd love to get to her Gamertag in 6 degrees. Not my favorite actress but I imagine a Halo match with her would be fun.

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