Microsoft Insider Details Xbox 360 Red Ring Problems

kylemonger writes "A blogger at the Seattle PI has interviewed a Microsoft insider about the Xbox 360 project. The insider purports to have the background story on the 'red ring of death' (RROD) failures and why they are so common. 'RROD is caused by anything that fails in the "digital backbone" on the mother board. Also known as a core digital error. CPU, GPU, memory, etc. Bad parts, incompatible parts (timing problems) bad manufacturing process (like solder joints), misapplied heat sinks or thermal interface material, missing parts, broken parts, parts of the wrong value, missed test coverage. Any one or more, on any chip, or many other discrete components, would cause this. And many of the failures were obviously infant mortality, where they work when they leave the factory and fail early in use. The main design flaw was the excessive heat on the GPU warping the mother board around it. This would stress the solder joints on the GPU and any bad joints would then fail in early life. There are also other significantly high failure rates in other areas, like the DVD.'"

Sometimes I hope Microsoft AI conquers the world

[by Anonymous Coward]

Because you just know it's going to fail.

Re:Sometimes I hope Microsoft AI conquers the worl

[edwardpickman (965122)]

You'll know when it happens, all your electronic devices will turn to blue screens.

Re:

[sortius_nod (1080919)]

Now I know where that term comes from... it's not crashing computers, it's M$'s ulterior motive - to take over the world!

"it's Pinky, Pinky and the brain brain brain brain brain brain brain brain brain brain brain brain"

To catch a ring.

[by Anonymous Coward]

At least their diagnostics were comprehensive enough to catch all those failure modes.

Which is why it is funny...

[by Anonymous Coward]

... that a common "fix" for RROD 360's is to wrap them in a towel. This causes the bad ROHS solder balls to expand and make better connections.

Re:Which is why it is funny...

[laejoh (648921)]

Ah, towels, isn't there anything they can't do!

Ok, true, you have to remember where your towel is...

Calling Shenanigans...

[toupsie (88295)]

Even though I just sent in my third XBOX 360 for RROD repair after the great XBOX Live failure of 2007/2008, something about this interview just doesn't seem right. Why would a Microsoft "insider" risk their employment spilling well known issues about the XBOX 360 as "secrets" to a blog very read. That doesn't sound like a good career move.

Re:Calling Shenanigans...

[rob1980 (941751)]

In the middle of '03 I tried to convince our director of "innovation" that we needed to do motion control, simple and intuitive controllers, and focus on family oriented and just plain fun content.

Were employees lined up outside this director's door to extol the virtues of motion-sensitive controllers? If not, a sufficiently-motivated manhunt could probably narrow down who this person is fairly quickly.

Re:

[tiffany98121 (1094419)]

unless he knew the guy didn't work there any more, and that's why he felt safe in divulging that detail

2nd time's not the charm

[Waccoon (1186667)]

I also don't think they considered that DVD drives generate heat, so putting and OEM-style DVD unit directly over a low-profile GPU heat sink wasn't too bright. Meanwhile, there's plenty of empty space in the corners of the box. I understand software companies aren't particularly good at making hardware, but really...

Re:2nd time's not the charm

[Lisandro (799651)]

Actually, Microsofts' hardware is top notch, or atleast it used to be - it's been quite a few years since i bought something from them. Mice, trackballs and keyboards were particularly good.

Re:

[Gideon Fubar (833343)]

Notably, none of these things had a GPU, CPU, heatsinks of any kind.. They did have a nice solid feel and reliable switches though.

Re:2nd time's not the charm

[dbIII (701233)]

Microsofts' hardware is top notch, or atleast it used to be - it's been quite a few years since i bought something from them. Mice, trackballs and keyboards were particularly good.

You are quite right - Logitech have made some nice hardware for Microsoft. The Xbox is not made by Logitech.

The Xbox 360 Is Fundamentally Defective

[by Anonymous Coward]

As recent as just a month ago in an interview with an Xbox exec and also statements from Bill Gates recently no definitive statement was made that any solution to the Xbox 360 hardware failures had been found and instead focused on what an amazing replacement program they had. That is shocking for a product that has been on the market for more than two years. With all of Microsoft's resources they still haven't been able to demonstrate publicly that a random sampling of whichever is their latest model can be operated with a staggeringly high defect rate.

Xbox 360s were dying in kiosks months to weeks before hitting the shelves in huge numbers.
Xbox 360s were dying at review sites in huge numbers around the time the system hit the shelves.
Xbox 360s have been dying for two years now and there is no sign that Microsoft will ever fix the fundemental design problems of the console.

Each new model is heralded as the one that 'fixed the RRoD problem'. And the failures continue. Each new model comes out and the very day they do owners start posting their RRoD problems.

It is common now for people to have gone through five to six Xbox 360s over the past two years. And people who have had to have their console replaced ten or more times is not rare.

Absolutely pathetic.

Microsoft has forever linked their name and the Xbox label with hardware failure and shoddy design. There never has been anything in the console market in the same league as the Xbox 360 hardware failure fiasco and almost certainly never will be again. No other company in the world has the necessary nexus of unlimited resources and incompetence that Microsoft posses to ever top this sad bit of console history.

Re:The Xbox 360 Is Fundamentally Defective

[NothingMore (943591)]

It is common now for people to have gone through five to six Xbox 360s over the past two years. And people who have had to have their console replaced ten or more times is not rare.

I wouldent call it "common" for people to have gone through 5 or 6 xbox 360's. I dont know a single person who owns a xbox 360 that has had it replaced 5 or 6 times. The RROD is a problem but saying 5-6 replacements is common is a bit of a stretch.

Re:

[p0tat03 (985078)]

Windows succeeds for the same reasons the Xbox 360 will continue selling despite its reliability problems - software. It's the platform with the software people want to run, and nothing will change that unless the other platforms start getting killer apps.

Re:

[donaldm (919619)]

And yet, despite knowing this, they're still outselling the PS3 nearly two-to-one. That says more about Sony than it does about Microsoft.

You are right but only a few months ago the ratio of Xbox360 to PS3 was almost 3 to 1 world wide, now it is less then 2 to 1. The Xbox360 has well over a year start on the PS3 in the USA and Japan but in Europe and Australia the PS3 has been out just 10 months. Go to here [vgchartz.com] for current sales and then to compare launches [vgchartz.com] and you can see that the PS3 is starting to overtake the Xbox360 although in the USA the Xbox360 leads almost 3 to 1 which is significant while the lead in Europe and Japan is very margin

Xbox infant mortality?

[by Anonymous Coward]

Don't they burn them in? When I worked in manufacturing we always burned in newly
manufactured products for 24 to 48 hours. It drastically cuts down on infant mortality problems because only the survivors are shipped.

Re:Xbox infant mortality?

[Ryokos_boytoy (259245)]

Many manufacturers think it's cheaper to just ship it and deal with the failures later.

And oh boy, does that sound like MS logic.

It's called 360 because...

[by Anonymous Coward]

it's called 360 because of the trip it takes
from microsoft, to you, back to microsoft, to you again

http://bash.org/?806949 [bash.org]

Re:It's called 360 because...

[ozmanjusri (601766)]

I thought it got the name because 360 F is the melting point of 63/37 solder.

Nothing new!

[superash (1045796)]

The insider purports to have the background story on the 'red ring of death' (RROD) failures and why they are so common

What background story? Cheap parts, not enough testing blah blah...Where are the specifics?...and the causes mentioned for RROD were already known ages back.

What I don't understand...

[feepness (543479)]

Is why it's still hot when the fans sound like a 737 revving for takeoff. The PS3 is pretty much silent, has more stuffed into the box, and has a nearly flawless record!

Re:What I don't understand...

[FuturePastNow (836765)]

If you look at "take apart" pictures on the web, it looks like about one-third to half of the PS3 by volume is heatsink. It has a single large fan that spins slowly, vs. two small fans on the 360.

You can use the same principles to build quiet computers- large heatsinks with big, slow fans cool more quietly and more effectively.

GPU and the DVD drive.

[Hamster Lover (558288)]

The very first thought I had when I saw tear down photos of the 360 hardware around the time the console was first released was how idiotic it was to place the DVD drive directly over the GPU, which had a pathetically inadequate heatsink in comparison to the CPU. I am not any sort of engineer, but years of tearing apart and building computers led me to conclude that the particular arrangement of the GPU under the DVD was poorly thought out.

OB Venture Brothers tie-in?

[Aereus (1042228)]

This reminds me of the episode of Venture Brothers where they go to the space station and it has a single red light labeled "Trouble" that blinks when any problem occurs... :)

Microsoft inventing their own terminology as usual

[by Anonymous Coward]

"Digital backbone" and (my favourite) "core digital error". As usual, Microsoft having to come up with their own terminology for what the rest of the real world would refer to as "hardware flaw" or "engineering mistake".

We'd better start calling the RROD the "ruddy halo of definitive binary turkey washout".

Microsoft -- reinventing the wheel... into some kind of odd mix between a rhombus and a Moebius strip.

Heat Sink Design Flaw

[Blackknight (25168)]

The biggest cause of failures that I've seen on the Xbox commmunity forums is from MS' flawed heat sink clamp design. Take off those damn x-clamps and 90% of the time the system will boot right up without a problem.

Here's a thread with more details, and instructions.

http://forums.xbox-scene.com/index.php?showtopic=595746 [xbox-scene.com]

Ringu?

[Chas (5144)]

So you see the ring and your XBox dies...

There's a movie in there somewhere...

my...

[cosmocain (1060326)]

...coffee machine's got the same problem. almost every day there's a ring of red light flashing and it stops working, but then i refill the water and the RRoD disappears. Maybe you should try this with the Xboxes as well - i'm almost sure that the RRoD will disappear INSTANTLY!

As a new owner of a 65nm Xbox 360

[AbRASiON (589899)]

I can tell you now that mine, while only a month old doesn't get tooooo hot and hasn't broken,... THE NOISE PROBLEM IS ANNOYING.
Yes, I said problem, it's simply un-acceptably noisy, sure if you're playing Sporty Mc Loud cheer 09 or Explosion masher 12 that's fine but for an RPG or or any adventure style game, ugh!.

I got my PS3 and 360 within a week of each other (good deal here in Australia at the time) and the 360 is almost not being used at all due to the noise, it's just frustratingly loud AND it can't easily be fixed.

The PS3 is quiet for 2 fantastic reasons,
1: the developers can COUNT ON there being a hard disk inside it, so they use it, infact all games install 300 to 1000mb to the hard disk, increasing load times on the repetetive data and dropping laser wear / noise
(not so the 360, thanks 'core' and 'arcade' models... sigh)

2: the data per square inch on the blu ray disks is substantially more, meaning it can spin lower and still deliver data relatively quickly.

I was playing Crackdown the other night and my g/f* called me, so I paused the game, then muted the home theatre system, I'm trying to talk to her but all i can hear is the whirr of a 16x dvd rom spinning at full speed,... big big sighs
I own the premium ffsake Microsoft, FORCE the developers to code in, if there IS a HDD found, to utilize it properly - because right now all i'm hearing is dvd's spin, how that's going to go on the disc spin motor over the years who knows?

While I'm on this topic:
Everyone has likely heard that GTA4 will be better on the 360 due to better game engine code, the PS3 is running it slow (or was?)
Problem is, one thing GTA is RENOWNED for is the constant disc access, chirp chirp chirp on PS2 and Xbox 1, HDD flash on PC - through GTA 3/ VC and SA
Do I really want the disc thrashing about on the 360 version when I could get it for my PS3 and (likely) have the developers utilise the HDD a lot better?

Decisions decisions.

Who needs context?

[stormguard2099 (1177733)]

if you want to take a gamble and enjoy working on electronics it's a good option though.

After hearing this I know I'm sold on the xbox 360!

Not always a hardware problem...

[Kaldaien (676190)]

I used to get the "red ring of death" from time to time; I thought it was due to overheating, so I moved it somewhere with better ventilation. Turns out it was a problem with the wiring in my house. Apparently the 360's external power supply is _very_ sensitive to brownouts. I've got the power supply in a place where I can see the colored light now - the "red ring of death" doesn't just apply to the XBOX 360 itself :)

I plugged the 360 into my UPS with AVR, and the problem's completely gone. I always thought the AVR stuff they try to push on people buying home theatre equipment was a scam (considering the things can cost $500+ and don't even provide uninterruptible power), but apparently some consumer electronic devices really are anal about line voltage.

Re:Preventative measures?

[Swampash (1131503)]

What sort of things would cause those different parts to fail?

The sun coming up, basically.

Re:Preventative measures?

[RuBLed (995686)]

...in the basement?? preposterous!!

Re:Preventative measures?

[Mr. Roadkill (731328)]

I have had my 360 since a few months after the lauch and I have never had any RROD problems with it either.
Then again, I'm having good luck with Vista so I guess I'm inversely jinxed.

There's a Mr Satan on Line 2, Mr Chrutil. Something about coming over to collect payment.

Re:Preventative measures?

[Datamonstar (845886)]

Dude, my SNES has PENNIES rattling around in it and it still plays. There's no excuse for the crap we put up with on these over-priced consoles.

Re:Q: My HDD died MS wants $100 to replace...

[Wuhao (471511)]

Have you tried playing it?

Re:exactly what I guessed.

[dj42 (765300)]

The "hand test" is pointless. *puts hand on the back of my computer* Well, I can feel warm air! My computer must have poor design when it comes to dealing with heat. Except that is how it is designed to work. I put it together in a way that funnels heat out the back of the computer. And I can monitor temperatures of my CPU, GPU, and hard drives, which could reveal a potential for failure. But sticking my hand on it is a sure fire way of figuring that out too?

Re:

[Rob Simpson (533360)]

I believe the GP said "on a display unit, and if it's too warm", not "on the exhaust vent". If your cooling system if doing a good job, the side or top of your case isn't going to be hot, is it?

Re:

[Splab (574204)]

What a load of BS. Yes back in the days heat was a big deal, going at 50 degrees Celsius was bad, but these days its less of a problem. My CPU is running at around 70 degrees Celsius, my GPU is at 80 degrees Celsius under load, my room however is at 20 degrees Celsius, so quite significant failures at +20 isn't happening.

Most new consumer hardware can sustain temperature to a point close to 100 degrees Celsius before critical failure happens.

Oh and smart consumer putting a hand on the product? are you fucki

Re:exactly what I guessed.

[dbIII (701233)]

The co-efficient of thermal expansion for copper has not magically changed since back in the day. Stuff moves back and forth with heating and cooling cycles and you often get thermal fatigue if there is a large enough temperature difference and constaints on parts. Solder is not very strong (and expands at a different rate to copper) so it doesn't take a lot for it to break away from a joint. In this case there are temperatures so high that people have done the towel trick to actually melt the solder so the difference from cold to operating temperatures would be large. The boards are even warping in the heat giving you yet another mode of failure as the tracks could peel off and component pins are stressed.

Most new consumer hardware can sustain temperature to a point close to 100 degrees Celsius before critical failure happens.

Interesting comment, but you really can't sensibly extrapolate one part of a graphics card to "most new consumer hardware". Conductors increase resistance with temperature. Semiconductors sometimes increase resistance at an almost exponential rate and usually have a point where they become full insulators. Electronics that operate at 100C+ is specificly and expensively designed to do so. A big lump of copper and a fan is usually easier. Of course sometimes cases are hot because that is where the heat is getting away - I have a little fanless machine that looks like a BBQ plate and the entire case warms up significantly, which is better than one hot spot of a higher temperature.

Re:When will people learn

[coaxial (28297)]

I bought a Zune

Well there's your problem right there.

Honestly. You're ranting about how bad Microsoft is and how stupid anyone is to buy a Microsoft product, but you go on to give an entire litany of all the products you repeatedly purchase and how they repeatedly suck. Apparently, you haven't learned your lesson, and by your own standard, are a fool.

this computer completely blows it away as far as gaming, it can boot 3 different OS's, it allows me to network myself without paying a forced subscription fee, AND it doesn't get hot enough to warp its own motherboard. Beat that Microsoft.

Well given that your machine boots XP, or as I strongly suspect given your apparent propensity to purchase anything Microsoft, Vista, I don't think Microsoft has to beat that. They have your money, and another customer on the upgrade treadmill.

Re:The Blessing And Curse Of The Xbox/HD-DVD Crowd

[tholomyes (610627)]

Are you high? Don't buy first-rev hardware, and don't buy add-ons for "next-gen" video formats that are (a.) only marginally better than current-gen offerings and (b.) are in the middle of a format war. Problems solved. The 360, a gaming console, sold itself to the crowds because it has good fucking games.

And while I do know people that are MS-exclusive fans, I honestly have never met anyone who has said-- of virtually any product-- "I will buy a product from any random manufacturer as long as it's not X, Inc." Anyone who's that concerned about who the "Evil Manufacturer" is isn't going to just blindly choose any secondary option, especially not from Microsoft. They're not exactly a "warm fuzzies" megacorp.

Re:

[jimicus (737525)]

I'm one.

I will buy a product from any random manufacturer as long as it's:

• Not a famously cheap and nasty manufacturer who wouldn't know "quality" if the big green quality monster came slavering into the managing director's office and bit him on the bum.
• Not from a manufacturer who may not be famously cheap and nasty, but is responsible for a number of things I've bought in the recent past causing me more hassle than is appropriate. (Sony, I'm looking at you - why can I never get a replacement Vaio battery e

Re:In hindsight (current Xbox owners)

[by Anonymous Coward]

Yes. A 1000 times yes. This is the second time my xbox failed (on it's way to Texas so sayeth UPS), the 1st time I shipped it away. I'm kind of going through a low grade withdrawl. I stupidly created an unreadable gamertag since I never thought I'd be playing with people who don't know me. Over the year I had my xbox it changed how I entertained myself. I didn't go out drinking as much, going to movies as much, and I watch A LOT less TV. The xbox had nearly killed TV for me entirely, which in the midst of a writers strike is fucking painful. But I had been at the point where I'd play the occasional RPG, but mostly I had a regular game or series of games with people I'd met on xbox live. It's social and relaxed, got it's share of pithy comments (why bother sticking with games filled with asshats when you got people who aren't asshats to play with), but also competative. It's a complete entertainment experience. One I clearly partook of too often, given my symptomatic reaction. But just Gears of War, I've played that for about 500 hours for $60 bucks. Even if you include the price of the console, that's just dominating value. I've considered buying a second "spare" xbox to use in case of repair. And this might be the addiction talking, but with just one Gears of War game a year, it makes a certain twisted economic sense. Then since I was the only guy who had a 360, cause I was the only one of my friends who had an HD tv, my place was something of the cool place to hang out. Now, I'm jittery, posting AC on a laptop, as I sit in the dark. Alone.

Your question boils down to was my life before "400 dollars better" than it is now. Yeah. Easily. Thank god for superbowls and superbowl parties.

Re:cheap repairs

[Blackknight (25168)]

I've done it, didn't even need a soldering iron. All you need is some 10-32 x 3/8 and 10-32 x 1/2 machine screws along with some #10 nylon washers. You'll also want some Arctic Silver paste to replace the cheap crap that MS uses on the CPU and GPU.

Take the system apart and remove the xclamps that hold on the heat sinks, clean up the old thermal paste and apply new stuff. After that you insert the screws (they thread right into the heat sink dies) and tighten everything down.

On my system I also had to cut out the little square panel that's under the processors, for some reason it was causing the board to flex and not boot.

There's a thread on how to do all of this located at http://forums.xbox-scene.com/index.php?showtopic=471958 [xbox-scene.com]

You may save a little money going this way but most of the broken systems I found on Ebay are still about $200, if you want to take a gamble and enjoy working on electronics it's a good option though.

Re:I once hear from HP about ATI chips causing hea

[king-manic (409855)]

How's the PS3 doing? I've not heard much in the way of failures there. Just stuff on slow sales due to pricing and the Blue-ray/HD-DVD wars. Any of those PS3 clusters showing signs of over heating?

I ran folding at home for 2 days just to see. MY house didn't burn down so I'd say it's alright.

PS. it's in a under ventilated wood/glass cabinet along with my digital cable box. Ironically the cable box gets hotter. I probably should remove the back to allow better air flow.

No more BSODs...

[Myria (562655)]

Windows XP and later reboot instead of show a BSOD when it bugchecks. This can be disabled, but only a small percentage even know about it. Sneaky Microsoft marketing tactic there.

Re:Put it in a hot box

[Alioth (221270)]

Since this is the natural place for living room electronics: neatly installed in some under-TV cabinet, surely it behooves the manufacturer to design their equipment to live where many people are going to instinctively put them?