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Whatever Happened To The Joystick?
Posted by
Zonk
on Thu Feb 14, 2008 09:53 AM
from the please-make-us-another-tie-fighter-title dept.
from the please-make-us-another-tie-fighter-title dept.
Ant writes "MSN UK has up an article that looks into the 'downfall' of the joystick: 'Sometimes technology disappears completely, but often it just fades into the background — still existing, still being used and sold and, occasionally, desired, but probably looking wistfully back on past glories. Which neatly described the joystick's steady slide away from its role as THE gaming peripheral to a fondly remembered also ran. But the joystick's tale is a long and convoluted one — and it is worth looking back into its often mysterious and ill-studied history before explaining why it will rise from the ashes like the mythical phoenix.' Seen on ClassicGaming."
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What happened to the joystick? (Score:5, Funny)
Re:What happened to the joystick? (Score:5, Interesting)
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
Ahh the nostalgia... TAC-2 was THE joystick.
Re:What happened to the joystick? (Score:4, Insightful)
The first was built like a brick shithouse : http://www.amazon.co.uk/Competition-Pro-5000-Joystick-PC/dp/B000J5U09W [amazon.co.uk]
And the second fit so perfectly in your hand :
http://www.consoledatabase.com/accessories/pc/konixspeedking/index.html [consoledatabase.com]
Parent
Re:What happened to the joystick? (Score:5, Funny)
Parent
Re:What happened to the joystick? (Score:5, Interesting)
Mind you, the models being praised for durability were indeed up to the task of gaming, but most joysticks sold were not. I went thru three Gravis sticks in two years before giving up and switching to a trackball.
Generalizing this leverage theme, the length of the lever arm of a joystick poses two problems 1) the mechanical advantage of the users' force leveraged onto the innards made it expensive to make a durable device, and 2) this mechanical advantage also made it difficult to perform precise control movements.
Starting in the mid-90s, games emerged that required players to do things like select units, lasso groups of units, click on targets and waypoints, aim FPS weapons, etc. The joystick really was not suited to these actions. The much shorter lever arm of a control pad allowed more precise control for aiming FPS weapons, and an absolute displacement interface (mouse or trackball) works better for selecting and commanding RTS units.
I really have never had better controller than a good mouse. I've used trackballs, control pads, joysticks, touchpads, and wiimotes -- the mouse is still the most natural, least RSI-inducing controller I've used. The touchpad comes close, but it lacks precision and has a higher error rate. Of course, I make exceptions for automobile and aircraft simulators, where mockups of the actual vehicle controls can't be beat.
Parent
Its easy (Score:5, Funny)
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
I'd really like a Quake 1 experience in a HL2 engine. With the Reznor soundtrack and all. Mmmmm, grappling hook rocket rape.
Cheers.
Re:Its easy (Score:4, Informative)
Parent
Good ones are expensive (Score:5, Insightful)
Today's games require dual analog controllers and about 27 buttons. A decent joystick set that has all that functionality does exist - but it's primarily relegated to the flight sim community.
To have dual analog controllers in a large form factor, you'd have to have the joysticks mounted on something sturdy. Recall that back in Atari days, you used your weak hand to stabilize the thing while controlling it with your dominant hand. With two sticks, you'd need a base. And that would be big and not very mobile. And you'd still have to have some design where you could easily press all the buttons without moving your hands. Again, like a flight sim system, but those are very expensive.
So basically, the joystick got shrunk and put on a handheld controller.
Re:Good ones are expensive (Score:5, Funny)
And that, is why the Wii is selling more games.
Most of us old geezers don't have the manual dexterity to run those damned controllers. Whereas we can whistfully waggle our Wiis nowadays whenever we wish.
Cheers
Parent
Re:Good ones are expensive (Score:5, Funny)
Parent
The good old days (Score:5, Interesting)
Of course, the first really good non-joystick action/puzzle game I played was Lode Runner. You used the keyboard. The left hand controlled movement with six keys, and the right hand controlled actions with six keys. You rested your hand on the keyboard. It worked sort of like xevil [xevil.com]. It was surprisingly easy to get the hang of.
Parent
The base is big and annoying. (Score:3, Interesting)
This is exactly correct. I'm a bit of a flight game nut (I hesitate to use the word "sim" because while I do enjoy highly realistic games like Falcon 4, I still play a great deal of Ace Combat). While I've owned a number of sticks over the years, my current favourite is the Hori Flightstick II [toysnjoys.com] that shipped with the special editions of AC5. Before this I used a Microsoft Force Feedback 2 [unc.edu], which had an extremely heavy base. You would use your weak hand for the throttle con
Don't forget the li'l red nubbin... (Score:3, Informative)
Re:Good ones are expensive (Score:5, Insightful)
There's nothing more "fun" than fighting one's self for stability of the controller. Some of the controllers were extremely hard on the wrists and caused tiring rather quickly. In fact, I'd go as far as to say that the console joysticks were unnatural control devices. When playing my classic game machines, I often do things like hold the joystick sideways in an attempt to find a better grip. (Or at least get gravity on my side.
Joysticks always worked best in an arcade environment where the rotational forces were absorbed by the heavy machines rather than your hands.
Parent
Re:Good ones are expensive (Score:5, Insightful)
Parent
Joysticks on console controllers (Score:3, Insightful)
Joysticks are everywhere. (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Joysticks are everywhere. (Score:5, Insightful)
Arguably, they're not joysticks per se.
A joystick was held in your entire hand, those little thumb-twiddlers are just operated with your thumbs in (in my experience) the most hand-cramping configuration you can imagine. I find them almost unusable.
A true joystick is much bigger, and is grasped in your entire hand -- usually, fairly comfortably. It is very different from what you see on a modern controller.
Cheers
Parent
Re:Joysticks are everywhere. (Score:5, Funny)
That's what she said.
Parent
Re:Joysticks are everywhere. (Score:5, Funny)
> That's what she said.
Such tiny, tiny hands.
Parent
Re:Joysticks are everywhere. (Score:4, Funny)
Everyone I know has referred to those as a clitoris for at least a decade. It's small and frustrating to manipulate,and doesn't always get you where you wanted to be.
Cheers
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
One problem with a lot of console controllers is they have to decide for each side whether to give the comfortable position to a stick or to buttons. The dualshock has the buttons in the comfortable position and the sticks in the uncomfortable one on both sides. The gamecube controller has one side with a stick in the comfortable position and the d-pad in the uncomfortable one and the other side with a gr
Re:Joysticks are everywhere. (Score:5, Insightful)
Why the hell is this thing such a popular controller? It feels entirely unnatural.
Parent
Re:How big are your hands? (Score:4, Informative)
To me, it's a simple and stupid design flaw that they will never fix because people are used to it. Being used to a bad design doesn't suddenly transform it; it's still a bad design.
Parent
Precision, what? (Score:4, Interesting)
Why? Because they have no precision. Your thumb is very poor at making small changes, especially when targeting someone. Try playing Unreal Tournament for instance on a console and then with a mouse. Your thumb also doesn't move in all directions as easily, so there's another problem.
There's a reason all of the serious online gamers use PCs - a console controller won't cut it. When the difference between headshotting someone is 3-4 pixels in hi-def, well, good luck on a PS3.(note all PC games and monitors are already more than 720P capable unless the programmers sucked) 1280*1024 is considered medium resolution in fact by most PC gamers.
I have dozens of games that require a joystick - a real one. I also have a dedicated steering wheel. They have specific uses that can't be replicated with any other controller. Need for Speed alone is night and day on the console versus a good force feedback wheel with a clutch pedal and shifter. Yes, there are two wheels that have an optional clutch pedal.
You also can't possibly play a game like Mechwarrior or X3 without one. Not unless you want to die over and over again. There's a reason why fighter planes use them and it's also why even 50 years from now, there still will be games that require them.
I personally hate articles like this. Maybe to the author it seems like they are outdated technology, but they still exist and there is no substitute for them, just like there isn't a good one for the mouse on your PC. Each serves a specific role that's not going to be served by another device.
A quick search Best Buy turned up 5 models alone. Dead and gone? Hardly.
P.S. I just played Tie Fighter in XP last night for some nostalgia. LucasArts released a patch in 2004 that makes all of the old games work perfectly with XP and 2K. You need the latest versions of the game(X-Wing Trilogy) and a patch, but it all works perfectly.
I got a copy myself so that my son could play the Star Wars titles to get up to speed as it were.
http://www.amazon.com/dp/B000050I88?tag=thearmchairem-20&camp=14573&creative=327641&linkCode=as1&creativeASIN=B000050I88&adid=1KBTT1SXX3J1M796A6WE& [amazon.com]
Worth every penny.
http://www.lucasfiles.com/index.php?action=file&id=653 [lucasfiles.com]
Here's the patch. Technically it will work with the W95 collector's editions, but they aren't as polished and the 3D engine they added to the trilogy edition makes it actually look good - perfectly playable, in fact. 640*480*32bit color with texture mapping. If you never saw the original X-Wing with the rendering engine from Alliance, do yourself a favor and check it out.
Parent
FTA, but what about N64 (Score:4, Insightful)
As I recall, my N64 had a thumbstick smack in the middle of the controller before the Sony Dualshocks (or pre Dualshocks, if they had no vibe.) Am I remembering this incorrectly? In additon, I found the article to be a bit pedantic and with littel substance. No mention of force feedback or joystick hats, which are the real progenitors of modern day thumbsticks.
Parent
Flight Sims (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Flight Sims (Score:5, Informative)
Parent
Re:Flight Sims (Score:5, Insightful)
ugh, no, wrong.
The mouse wasn't even mass marketed until Xerox Star in 1981. Joysticks (for games) evolved out of paddle technology - basically, they combined two paddles.
Early FPS's actually did it wrong - there was no mouse look, you'd use the joystick or keyboard to look and target (partially because the mouse was not ubiquitous). 2D games hinted toward mouselook, but it really didn't appear until one of Carmack's games (Quake?). I was essentially using mouse look for a flight simulator I was working on at the time (on a mac that had no joystick) and was already doing that, so I didn't find it that revolutionary (expected evolutionary in my mind), but many reviewers did. Incidentally, anyone that had played Space Battle on the Intellivision would be instantly at home with mouselook.
The joystick decline started probably with the Intellivision, which used a disc controller, and the nintendo with its D-Pad controller, which were cheaper to manufacture and less prone to stress failure (joysticks are levers, so the smaller the lever, the less the force). ColecoVision used a short lever, but even that had failure problems (I broke mine twice in 6 months and never broke an Intellivision controller). Gamepad controllers do some things well, joysticks other things. I personally find it easier to do rolling actions with a joystick because a gamepad doesn't naturally redirect momentum (i.e. half-circle and full circle moves in fighting games).
The other problem with joysticks was that flight simulators have much different needs than game controllers, and adding controls capable of yaw, pitch and roll, throttle, and buttons mapped to keys made for a much bulkier and expensive control. Basically, joysticks forked to bulky flight sim controllers and small cheap D-Pad controllers, which are essentially joysticks without a lever.
Parent
Re:Exactly! (Score:4, Informative)
Parent
What happened to the Joystick? (Score:5, Insightful)
The only company that produced a worse home joystick was Coleco. Their joystick was so small, you needed to palm it to use it. Palming the stick resulted in even MORE torque, thus making gaming very tiring despite the wide base.
At the end of the day, the gamepad was a superior control device for home consoles. It met the needs of the average game better, thus relegating joysticks to arcade and flight-sim use only.
As an aside... (Score:3, Informative)
http://www.atariage.com/controller_page.html?SystemID=7800&ControllerID=24 [atariage.com]
The NES controller was properly referred to as a gamepad. Modern controllers blur the distinction by having both DPad controls as well as thumbstick controls.
I blame IBM. (Score:5, Insightful)
I find it sad that entire genres of gaming became extinct with it.
Only now are flash games reviving the idea of simple, but fun games.
It's funny that in 2008 there are tons of games being developed that play with.... a keyboard!
ASDF!
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
X-Arcade, anyone? (Score:3, Informative)
What happened was... (Score:4, Interesting)
Lack of games (Score:5, Insightful)
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
You won't buy a game you don't already have the controller for? Tell that to the DDR/Guitar Hero/Rock Band crowd.
People will upgrade their whole gaming rig if there's a good enough game to play for it. If there was a good enough game, I'd happily buy a new joystick. Unfortunately, the last time I was interested in a game enough to buy a joystick, it was World War II Online. (W
Happy Memories (Score:5, Funny)
There was a breakfast television crew wandering around filming and some hot blonde TV presenter was being shown said spitfire and helped to climb into it. Upon trying to sit down down in the cockpit she suddenly finds her way impeded and asks the cadet sergeant "Oops! What's this between my legs?"
Cadet Sergeant, with big grin: "That's the joy stick". Cue red-faced presenter and much laughter.
I don't think that bit ever made it on the telly...
Re: (Score:3, Funny)
I had the opportunity to tour an aircraft carrier a decade or so ago, and I got to sit in the cockpit of a fighter jet.
The flight control interface on the jets had recently been upgraded--four fist-size square buttons "W, A, S, D" are arranged in front of the pilot.
I'm relieved to learn that the gaming industry is finally taking advantage of this advance!
- RG>
Fine motor control and accuracy (Score:5, Interesting)
That being said, the immersive qualities of holding the joystick while leading an enemy target is much greater than the simple twitch movements that most games rely on today, as well as improved dexterity when using both large and small muscle groups at the same time (see also: autoaim). If anything replaced the joystick it's the mouse, not the analog stick. It's much more comfortable to use, requires less effort to achieve the same sensitivity, and is much more ubiquitous (imagine trying to use a joystick to move the Windows mouse).
Curse you Nintendo and your left handedness (Score:4, Insightful)
8/16-bit era joysticks were operable with either hand, so naturally being right handed I used my... right hand! Then Nintendo came along with the NES and it's left-handed gamepads, and everyone else copied them. Now modern gamepads have analogue joysticks, but they are operated with the left hand.
Surely since 9 out of 10 people are right handed, and precision joystick control needs more dexterity than simple button pressing, the joystick should be on the right.
Let's be clear on what we're talking about here... (Score:3, Insightful)
Both have been around since the dawn of modern gaming, and both had their place.
Digital joysticks, i.e. ones with four (or sometimes eight) discrete position switches, have mostly been replaced by gamepads of some form or keyboards. Really, they were no more than custom-purpose keyboards themselves. Moving in a direction consisted of "hold the button down until you're where you want to be." Most of the continued existence of these 'classic' joysticks is from nostalgia, although modern game controllers certainly can trace their lineage back to them.
Analog joysticks are a different beast entirely, with either pots or digital encoders on two axes, for continuous range-of-motion detection. These are essential for flight sims, and are not at all endangered. As long as we have (good) flight sims, we'll have analog joysticks.
As an aside, stick-less joysticks have been around just about as long as joysticks. Does anyone else remember the Intellivision controllers?
Joystick? What about the steering column? (Score:3, Interesting)
The last time I used a joystick as the exclusive interface for a console was the Atari. Since then, games have grown more sophisticated, and require a more sophisticated interface, not because a more sophisticated interface is most appropriate to the game at hand, but because it's more versatile.
Take driving games, for instance. Using a steering column is a more natural interface for them. But you can only use that interface for the driving game, not for an FPS. So as a developer, which would you rather code for, a single-use interface, or one that bridges the game universe for a given console?
Sure, for nostalgia's sake I miss the good ole days of playing Star Command on a joystick. But I would trade that innocent fun for the immersive experience of GTA on a PS?/Xbox*/Wii any day.
In like fashion I long ago abandoned the paddle wheel used for Pong. It carries fond memories, sure, but after Breakout it ceased to be relevant.
Fun and playability are the constants, to my mind. Focus on those, less on eulogies for lost interfaces.
Get off my lawn (Score:3, Insightful)
Lack of joysticks these days is one of the reasons I gave up on consoles (until the Wii). Those...things that you control with your thumb are not joysticks. I can't understand how in the hell that was supposed to be better.
My thumbs are.. all thumbs. I mean seriously, that phrase came about because thumbs just aren't very precise in their movement. But all you kids who had NESes before puberty all have that "mutation" that was talked about here on Slashdot a while back which allows you to use your thumb as a precision input device instead of your index fingers. Which also explains how in the hell you manage to text from a cell phone.
Oh and what is it with you folks who say FPS games were best used with "keyboard and mouse"? I was never much into FPS games, but the only really usable configuration was "joystick and mouse". You suction-cupped the joystick onto your desk (your joystick did have suction-cups, right?) for your left hand and mapped the trigger and/or top buttons to things like jump or crouch (the buttons on the joystick base were clearly unusable). Then you put the mouse under your right hand, as usual. This way, you had good coarse analog control of your movement with your left hand, and fine precision analog aiming with your right hand.
Now everyone get off my lawn.
Re:Joysticks (Score:4, Insightful)
Unfortunately I game so little know, I hardly knew joysticks were out of style...
Parent
Re:The joystick is alive and well. (Score:5, Insightful)
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Funny)
I guess I'm just bitter that I