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Diablo 3 Developer Explains Health and Potion Changes
Posted by
Soulskill
on Thu Aug 14, 2008 02:58 PM
from the where-would-I-put-this? dept.
from the where-would-I-put-this? dept.
One of the new features in the upcoming Diablo 3 release is a change from the traditional potion-guzzling, inventory-clogging system of previous games to a new scheme in which monsters drop health orbs on the ground that refill your health when you touch them. Lead Designer Jay Wilson says the change makes for more varied gameplay and a more consistent way to scale difficulty. He told the Multiplayer blog:
"When the player has similar downsides, it means we can make a lot more interesting monsters. We don't have to kill you to challenge you. We can make a monster that affects your mobility, we can make a monster that has different kinds of attacks that are dangerous to you and that you actually have to avoid. And so it makes the combat a lot more interesting."
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Blizzard Announces Diablo 3 423 comments
stpk4 writes "After a week-long tease by Blizzard, Diablo 3 has just been announced in Paris.
The splash screen has been updated at their homepage
and The Escapist has the first write-up." While there aren't many details available yet, it is known that Deckard Cain returns to help our heroes yet again.
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Finally! (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Finally! (Score:5, Funny)
Speak for yourself. That is what made the Diablo games different. In fact, the many hours that I spent playing Diablo and Diablo 2 gave me the inventory management experience to land me my dream job. You are currently reading the post of the Senior Late Night Inventory Management Specialist at Safeway Food and Drug, Whitefish, Montana.
Parent
Re:Finally! (Score:4, Insightful)
I miss the days when inventory management was a challenge, rather than being simplified away into nothingness. Developers need to learn that just because you can simplify a game mechanic into meaningless doesn't mean you should; do it too much and too often, and you get today's dumbed-down pile of shovelware games.
And yes, I had the same reaction to the dumbed-down "inventory" system of Deus Ex 2 as opposed to the elegant, tricky system in the original Deus Ex. When a RPG launcher takes up the same "space" in inventory as a handgun, something is off.
Parent
Re:Finally! (Score:5, Funny)
I think there's a way for you to enjoy modern inventory systems.
Whenever you pick up an item, pause the game.
Then start up a game of tetris, easy for small items, increase difficulty as the item size increases.
Beat 99 levels in row. If you fail you do not have enough inventory space for the item.
Unpause the game. If you completed 99 levels, add the item to your inventory. Otherwise leave the item behind.
This way, the rest of us can actually play the game and you can still play inventory management.
Parent
Re:Finally! (Score:5, Insightful)
As funny as that was, it annoys me when games allow you to carry phenomenal amounts of weight without considering the awesome difficulty of having 14 different massive hammers over your shoulder at once.
Parent
Re:Finally! (Score:5, Funny)
Everyone knows you don't carry 14 different massive hammers at once, you carry 12 massive hammers and a magic box with 2 massive hammers inside it
Parent
Re:Finally! (Score:4, Interesting)
I've never been able to decide if I like a weight based inventory (like The Elder Scrolls) or a slot inventory (like Diablo) more. Both systems have their pros and cons, but I think a mix would be best. Sometimes really small things can be very heavy, while large things can be light. A slot inventory that gets dynamically adjusted based on the weight of things you are carrying would be good. Small heavy things would reduce the available slots, while large light things might give back half the space they take. It probably sounds a little half-baked, but I haven't fully worked out how I'd implement it yet, so it IS half-baked :P
Parent
Re:Finally! (Score:5, Informative)
See Baldur's Gate.
You have a maximum number of slots, and a maximum weight. If you go a little over the weight, then you slow down. If you go a lot over, you can't move.
Parent
My reponse (Score:5, Funny)
Git offa ma lawn - ooh, shiny! *begins furiously looting*
Damn you and your addictive games, Blizzard.
Re:My reponse (Score:5, Interesting)
That's also one of the big changes they are putting in to Diablo 3. When you're in a multiplayer game, each item drops for a specific player, and only that player can see that item until they pick it up (and drop it). So no you don't have to loot furiously or out ninja-click your teammates to get shinyz any more.
For those who think I'm talking out of my ass:
http://blizzplanet.com/news/2537/ [blizzplanet.com]
Parent
Metroidiablo (Score:4, Interesting)
Monsters drop health orbs on the ground when you kill them, instead of a potion system? So, in a way, what they've got now is Metroid applied to a dungeon crawl?
(yes, there's a billion other games that do that, Metroid was just the first to come to mind)
Re:Metroidiablo (Score:5, Interesting)
Plentiful and common health potions that can heal the main character from near death to perfect health reliably and repeatably aren't the least bit realistic either.
This changes health management in two ways:
1 - health isn't tied to inventory
2 - the graphic for "health item" looks different
I hope nobody is complaining that this represents some grave cheapening of the game. It wasn't Fallout, where health items are rare, cost a fortune, and come with some of the side effects of actual drugs.
Oh any word on if Fallout 3 is still going to be scarce on the health power ups? The demos have looked combat-y (which is fine, it's certainly the most interesting bit of a game, at least visually) but is the game such a heavy shooter that they're going to need to throw downside-free stimpacks at the player all the time?
Parent
Re: (Score:2)
You had to use stimpacks?
I quickloaded every time my character lost a hit point, and hoarded those things like solid gold.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Metroidiablo (Score:4, Insightful)
I think you're missing an important gameplay point. You actually have to KILL mobs to obtain health orbs while in combat. A lot of times in Diablo/Diablo 2 on the harder difficulties (and especially hardcore in D2) often times when faces with extremely dangerous packs of enemies or difficult bosses, you'd have to town portal REPEATEDLY to restock on potions, before a single monster had fallen. Admittedly, this was pretty bad game design. It pulled you out of the action and felt "cheesy".
The obvious answer is to tune difficult groups of monsters and bosses with this in mind (or provide alternate sources of healing through things like abilities, life leech items, or secondary mechanics to drop health orbs BEFORE an enemy or set of enemies dies), but it's still a considerably bigger change than simply "unlinking healing items from inventory".
Overall, I do think it's a positive change, I just think you're oversimplifying it.
Parent
Re: (Score:2)
America's Army was great and handled health nicely. Of course, games usually lasted no more than 5 or 6 minutes...
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
There is no level 146 in Diablo, the maximum character level is 50.
Re: (Score:2)
Not bad, but using Kingdom Hearts as your example would resonate better with the BAWWWWWers.
Didn't Xmen Legends or Marvel Ultimate Alliance do this as well? I seem to recall something like that, but I also seem to recall there being potions in at least one of those games.
Strategy in MY D3? (Score:2, Interesting)
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
It sounds as if they wanted to bring in a strategy angle for the PvE element with this new installment... I remember not needing much strategy at all in Diablo 2, just hack and slash and power through everything. Also, if I'm understanding TFA correctly, there are no potions
You're forgetting part of the "strategy". It was hack and slash and oh noes my health is low pop a big rejuvie potion. Don't attempt Diablo without at least 16 of em!
I'm quite glad about this change. Like the quote from the summary, "
Re: (Score:2)
A good, proerply gear spellcaster in D2 would pretty much instantly kill everything on the screen at all times, except for the things that instantly killed you. Not much stratgy there. Of course, I never saw the appeal of a game where the only real gameplay was to kill the same boss over and over for 80 straight hours to get a couple of good items, but no one can deny that it was in fact appealing to a great many people.
Marvel Ultimate Alliance (Score:4, Insightful)
What about bosses? (Score:4, Interesting)
So, if there's an extended fight like, say, DIABLO...
A fight which you might not survive with just the health and mana you have in your orbs, what do you do? If you can't chug potions, you have to, in effect, execute the monster perfectly to even survive. I think that the orb system is better when you're hacking and slashing your way through several monsters that actually die, but when you encounter monsters that are not easy to get down, then you might need a heal or two. I certainly prefer chugging potions to relying on support classes (like priests, druids, paladins and shamans in wow) to heal you.
Re:What about bosses? (Score:5, Insightful)
Who's to say an "orb" doesn't fall out if you hit the boss hard enough? It doesn't necessarily have to die....
Parent
Re:What about bosses? (Score:5, Funny)
Parent
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Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
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"All right, I'm steamed now! I'll just rise up onto my hind legs and swing my elephant tenderizer up over my head, so I can spl--"
"Aw, shit! I just ruptured the squishy minion pipe! It's fuckin' raining health in here now!"
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
Even the gameplay movie they have up on their site (from E3) only shows monsters dropping orbs when they die. The way it currently looks, bosses have certain attacks and you need to run around a lot and avoid them and pick up orbs dropped by previously beaten monsters.
Back to listening to "Town" and "Tristram" by Matt Uelmen on B-net mp3 player [battle.net] - brings back memories (always did like the Bauhaus [specifically the end of Mask] sound of those tracks with the 12 string - all the new stuff released so far for
Re:What about bosses? (Score:4, Interesting)
Someone mentioned Marvel: Ultimate Alliance, which I think is a very good comparison.
While defeating enemies in the game would cause them to drop health and mana orbs, bosses would drop them on a regular basis while you beat on them (I think ever 25% of so.) So, you didn't have to be able to defeat the boss without dying - just able to knock 25% of his health off so you could heal up enough to keep on beating on him.
This could work for DiabloIII as well, though I can remember some fights where I wasn't even able to put a dent in the stupid boss the first few times I faced it, dying a good 4 or 5 times before I figured out the strategy for my combination of boss and character class.
Parent
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Well I'm pleased (Score:2)
I really liked the Diablo series, but I have got to say that I got utterly sick of endless button mashing to apply potions.
It never really added anything to the game in my opinion, in fact I felt it was the worst part of it. I went on to play the dungeon siege games, and there I deliberately avoided using health potions, simply so I wouldn't have that button mashing experience again. I died a lot, but its more interesting if you have to retreat rather then apply an inventory full of potions just to stay ali
I Call Shennanigans! (Score:2)
We can make a monster that affects your mobility, we can make a monster that has different kinds of attacks that are dangerous to you and that you actually have to avoid. And so it makes the combat a lot more interesting.
There were monsters that had attacks that could affect your mobility in Diablo II. There were certain attacks you really had to avoid unless you were in the top tier of players in Diablo II. It doesn't sound any different to the person who didn't try to pimp out their toon to the max so they could easily walk all over everything. And honestly, not everyone could, not with how the games economy was so horribly screwed over by the botters.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Really? You mean now there's a goal other than fighting until either you or the bad guys are dead?
To make you go slower so it can kill you easier.
It can kill you by hitting you, by zapping you, by freezing you, by burning you...
Or you'll be killed.
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
Really? You mean now there's a goal other than fighting until either you or the bad guys are dead?
To make you go slower so it can kill you easier.
It can kill you by hitting you, by zapping you, by freezing you, by burning you...
Er, no, I don't think you get what they mean. They don't mean "We don't have to hurt you through successive attacks in such a manner that you will eventually be slain unless you take action in order to challenge you." They mean kill, like a killing blow, as in who cares if you have
Re: (Score:3, Funny)
In D2 you could create some pretty ridiculous builds (Like a dagger paladin) and actually have them be relatively successful as long as you were willing to suck
I'll just cut off the quote there and say that as long as there are a wide variety of builds that are viable (which there were in D2 not counting absurdities), then I don't think this is a big problem.
My mature, well thought out response (Score:5, Funny)
click...click click click click click ooh shiney clickclick click click click click click click click click...
PhysRx Engine (Score:3, Funny)
It's about time games took health seriously. I guess the Nintendo Wii is starting to have an effect on PCs as well as consoles.
Orb monster drops? WTF no! (Score:5, Insightful)
As opposed to what... ice-based attacks that freeze/slow? Poison that drains health? And what, avoiding those *&^*&^ Pit Lords and Abyss Knights at the River of Flame? Yeah, I don't see anything new here, ffs. As someone who likes fending off PVP'ers in the middle of fighting demons, I'd prefer being in control of my health, rather than being dependent on monster drops.
Just having a system where potions in your inventory were dropped to your 'belt' hot-bar automatically would be an improvement far beyond the orb system.
Re:Well... (Score:5, Funny)
How is that going to affect boss matches? Unless the boss monster has a load of minions, that could be quite a challenge!
Indeed, I only hope the monsters drop these "health orbs" through specific orifices. Would give a new sense to beating the proverbial shit out of them. Mostly if that shit heals your wounds.
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Funny)
I thought Chuck Norris was the only character that shit heals wounds. Who knew?
Re: (Score:2)
How is that going to affect boss matches? Unless the boss monster has a load of minions, that could be quite a challenge!
Usually destroying local boxes or other various destructible environments released orbs as well in other games. Perhaps this will be similar?
Re:"new" ??? (Score:5, Informative)
Parent
Re: (Score:2)
It's new to the Diablo franchise, perhaps this is what the author meant. Potions, after all, have been a staple of the past two games.
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Re: (Score:3, Funny)
Re: (Score:2, Insightful)
I think a lot of that stems from the desire to keep the focus on bashing monsters' brains in. In tabletop games, you have all the time in the world to ponder your next move. In a game like Diablo, you have to act quickly or become "Ahh... Fresh meat!". Although I wouldn't mind a little more complexity to the way a character's health is calculated, I would be disappointed and perhaps a little agitated if it had a negative impact on my time spent killing things.
Could it be a little more realistic? Yes. D
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
Today, when you have ridiculously powerful personal computers running massive 3D simulations with thousands of concurrent interacting users - you'd think the game industry could innovate just a little bit around the idea of character "health".
Amen!
Back in the day there was a game (well a game/screensaver) called "Lunatic Fringe". It was sort of like asteroids, but instead of a health bar for your ship, you had several health bars. On was for your guns, one for your engine, one for your turning jets, one for your long range radar, etc. If you were shot or ran into an asteroid you took damage to one or more of them and those parts of the ship began to malfunction. If your guns were slightly damaged they might fail to fire one time in ten. If they
Re: (Score:2)
You say that like the gameplay was the bad part of Kingdom Hearts.