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Nintendo's Miyamoto On Innovation, Wii Ambitions
Posted by
Soulskill
on Thu Dec 04, 2008 07:26 PM
from the wii-music-will-bring-balance-to-the-force dept.
from the wii-music-will-bring-balance-to-the-force dept.
Edge Magazine is running an interview with Nintendo game designer Shigeru Miyamoto about some of the company's recent projects, such as Wii Music and Wii Fit. Miyamoto talks about his ambitions for the titles, as well as the difficulty in continuing to entertain players by surprising them. He refers to Wii Music as "music software" rather than a game, and says the primary intent was to bring music to families and assist in music education. The conversation then turns to where Nintendo can go in the future; Miyamoto discusses integrating new technologies into popular game franchises, and the dilemma Nintendo will face when designing its next console — do they stick with updated versions of their innovative controllers, do they return to a more standard build, or do they bring a completely different input device to the table?
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Wii Music, Huh? (Score:4, Insightful)
I really don't know who are actually going to purchase the game, but I hope that schoolchildren will play.
I couldn't agree more. For those of you thinking that this will offer high quality tracks from all eras of music, guess again.
I could go into a lengthy diatribe about the shortages of Wii Music but instead, I'll referrence IGN [ign.com] that pointed out the biggest deficiency:
Before we even get to the gameplay breakdown, though, take a second and think about what you might value in a game dedicated to music. I imagine a robust roster of popular, classic and contemporary songs tops the list for obvious reasons. What about an assurance that the songs included will be presented in the highest audio quality possible? I mean, people went nuts when they found out that the musical tracks in the Wii version of Guitar Hero were outputted in mono, and with good reason: we expect a certain caliber of presentation from today's software. Unfortunately, with Wii Music Nintendo has demonstrated that it doesn't care to satisfy expectations. Not only are most of the 50-plus tracks lifted from the public domain -- such timeless hits as Twinkle, Twinkle, Little Star, O Christmas Tree, My Grandfather's Clock and Bridal Chorus -- but they are also rendered in archaic, amateur MIDI. I've heard some good MIDI renditions in my day and let me tell you, you won't find any of them in Wii Music. It is a good thing that Beethoven is long dead because he would not ever wish to hear the game's lifeless version of Ode to Joy.
Seriously, Ode to Joy done in MIDI? Are you trying to scare your children away from Beethoven?
They gave this game a 5.0 out of 10.0 and I think that's a tad generous. This game is seriously only for the very young. Great for that and introduction to music but no more.
Re:Wii Music, Huh? (Score:5, Insightful)
Frankly, comparing it to a game where the choice is (Play Guitar Track) or (Don't play guitar track) seems silly. This is much more a game that is trying to get you to think about composing music, and seeing the ways different sounds work when combined. It has an entirely different reason for existing than a symphony orchestra playing Beethoven.
Much like I would never compare Wii Fit to running a mile every day, I wouldn't compare Wii Music (or any other rhythm game) to playing music; think of them as a way to expand your thinking, and to perhaps add more breadth to the things you care about. It's sharpening the saw [stevepavlina.com] in game form, basically.
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
How would they do it other than MIDI? Don't forget they have 50 instruments in addition to the 50 songs.
Well, the obvious solution that I can think of would be something like a tracker MOD file. (see also http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trackers [wikipedia.org])
For some reason these never really caught on on the PC but they were commonly used for game soundtracks in the early 1990's on many other platforms because while they store the notes and tempo (like a MIDI file), they can also store samples, guaranteeing what the track will sound like regardless of what system's playing it.
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The MIDI music on the Wii is using sound samples. Sometimes I think people misunderstand what MIDI is. It's just raw music data, and the output can be anything. I haven't heard FM synthesized MIDI in a long time.
Re:Wii Music, Huh? (Score:5, Informative)
Well, it seems like you have absolutely no idea what you're talking about.
I could "go into a lengthy diatribe about" the many brilliant ideas in Wii Music, but instead, I'll respond to your vaguely sketched out MIDI criticism, borrowed by none other than the IGN reviewer who stated far in advance of the game's release that he was dying to tear it apart, and who also posts those rather juvenile rants about how Nintendo doesn't make enough Zelda games, etc.
This will, however, require some quick digression into the question of the point of this game. This isn't a game with pre-recorded tracks that you simply try to play through in glorified Simon-Says style, as in Rock Band styled games. Instead, the entire objective of this game is to take a familiar tune and rearrange it into something new, or take it into a musical domain far removed from its original settings.
For the uninitiated, here's a very quick rundown of what you do:
The possibilities are endless, and here's why, at last, something like MIDI is necessary for this game: you can't use prerecorded parts like other rhythm games, and you need to allow the user to do anything with the notes played, with dynamics, bending, and other touches depending on the instrument.
Perhaps they could have used even better MIDI voices, but the actually sound very good if used properly in a creative arrangement. Here are three very different videos, from three different authors, created with Wii Music: surely there is no mistaking the MIDI roots if you listen closely, but overall the sound is amazingly good for a game that is so open-ended.
Frere Jacques [youtube.com] Every Breath You Take [youtube.com] Sukiyaki [youtube.com]
Parent
Re:Wii Music, Huh? (Score:4, Informative)
Having fooled around with Wii Music for a bit myself, I concur that using MIDI was the only choice possible for a game like this.
However, this is no excuse for the poor choice of tracks. I understand that Nintendo wasn't going to shell out megabucks to license a hundred popular songs, but they did hype up Wii Music quite a bit so you have to be able to show something. Like the IGN reviewer, the only track I actually enjoyed was the F-Zero one.
I understand throwing in a few public domain scores to keep costs down, but if you're being cheap on the music (the main selling point of the game for most), don't be surprised if the game falls flat for many. This coupled with the fact that you can't make your own original tracks but only replay existing ones, Wii Music has been a let-down for me.
Parent
Rabidly defending the Wii? (Score:3, Insightful)
You seem to be the one having a rabid reaction.
Seems to me he was specifically talking about Wii Music and was giving us an idea about how it works.
As someone doesn't know anything about it that hasn't been on a TV advert (ie not much) I found it rather interesting. I'm not exactly going to rush out and buy it but it's interesting to know there is some depth there.
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
Eh, the games are in the Wii. Between virtual arcade, their Xbox Arcade clone, and actual releases, their doing rather well. Granted I am a bit miffed about the lack of 3rd party releases, but still there is plenty to do. The lack of 3rd party released is largely based on the idiocy of developers refusing to offer solid products to the Wii, as much as it is Nintendo's fault for making a system with sub-par graphics (the only thing that matters to young gamers).
I'm not, btw, crying for the lack of stealth
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
In response to this though. As a parent, to see my not-quite-2 year old shaking her controllers playing the piano was worth the price of the game just for that 30 seconds of pure joy she got :)
Re:Wii Music, Huh? (Score:5, Funny)
It is a good thing that Beethoven is long dead because he would not ever wish to hear the game's lifeless version of Ode to Joy.
Hmm...something tells me that were he still alive this wouldn't be a problem.
Parent
Re:Wii Music, Huh? (Score:5, Informative)
Though I know next to nothing about Wii Music, I do know that this reviewer isn't very good.
The bizarre statement "archaic, amateur MIDI" is only slightly less weird than the concept of deriding an "Ode to Joy done in MIDI".
I take it you, and this reviewer do not know what MIDI is. MIDI is only a protocol for describing musical events. It has no sound of its own.
All professional recording studios make extensive use of MIDI for driving sampled or modeled instruments or for syncing and for hardware controllers (e.g. those exciting desks full of sliders and knobs).
I guarantee you that most of the music you listen to, even live stage music, is driven by MIDI.
Parent
Next Console? (Score:5, Interesting)
Nintendo has proven graphics don't have to matter. Look at DS graphics compared to PSP graphics, or Wii graphics to PS3 graphics. Why issue a new console with the same controllers?
Either make a new console with updated controllers, or completely new controllers. If you're going to use the same controllers, keep the same console.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
But graphics do matter, to some extent. How many games have been developed for the Xbox 360 and/or PS3, but not for the Wii (or maybe a PS2/watered down port was released on the Wii instead)? I only have a Wii (have thought about getting a 360 or PS3, but nothing more as of yet), and there have been quite a few games that I would like to play, but can't, since they haven't been ported to the Wii.
Don't get me wrong - Nintendo makes some great games given the capabilities of the Wii. They're just tying third
Re:Next Console? (Score:5, Interesting)
It turns out you don't need to play to the hardcore gamers. For every hardcore gamer there are a dozen who practically never play video games. My grandparents have a Wii (and use it). Some of their friends have Wiis. They've never shown interest in any other system.
Parent
Re:Next Console? (Score:5, Interesting)
I'm a Nintendo fanboy, camped out for my Wii on launch day, don't own a PS3 or 360, but I have to say that I think some of the criticisms against the Wii here are spot-on. The idea of motion-controlled games is nice, but I think the implementation leaves something to be desired, and the lack of a hard drive and strong graphical capabilities (compared to the other consoles) really does limit the system's potential.
As for the casual gamers ... a friend of mine with all three systems regularly hosts game nights for his church and guess what system we end up playing the most? The PS3 for Rock Band/Rock Band 2 and, more recently, Little Big World. Of course, Rock Band is available on the Wii as well, but the fact that new songs are released every week has helped keep the game fresh, while the novelty of the wiimote faded a long time ago.
The Wii may have broader appeal than the other systems, but that doesn't mean it's a better system. That's why I'm with the parent in hoping that the next Nintendo system is packing some horsepower. Your grandparents will presumably still be happy with GameCube-level graphics two years from now Nintendo can keep releasing new controllers and relatively simple, inexpensive games to keep that segment of the market happy.
But as for me, I want the next generation of Zelda, Mario and Metroid games to push the envelope, not only in terms of game-play and controls, but also when it comes to scope, graphics, etc. and enjoy every major multiplatform release on my Nintendo without the game losing any major features or visual appeal.
Parent
Re: (Score:2, Interesting)
Graphics do matter to me. I bought a PS3 first, and bought a Wii later. I like what the PS3 offers, and in a perfect world I would love to see Nintendo go the Sega route and focus on games, rather than offer a console anymore. Let Sony and/or Microsoft take a loss on the hardware, and then create peripherals and games.
That being said, it isn't just graphics as why PS3/360 games don't end up on the Wii. The Wii can't handle complex physics or anything that requires a decent CPU. Heck, Guitar Hero 3 for
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
Yeah and the Wii is significantly more powerful than the PS2. It wasn't due to lack of power, it was simply a fuckup and it ended in a class action lawsuit.
You don't know what you're talking about.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Nintendo doesnt care about the hardcore audience.
They are doing what they have always done best - making fun games.
The number of polygons in a game is not proportional to how fun the game is - no matter what the Microsoft and Sony marketing departments say.
The reason why the Wii is outselling the other two consoles is because it focuses on fun and the quality of the games.
That appeals to the majority of the market.
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Re:Next Console? (Score:4, Insightful)
But graphics do matter, to some extent. How many games have been developed for the Xbox 360 and/or PS3, but not for the Wii (or maybe a PS2/watered down port was released on the Wii instead)? I only have a Wii (have thought about getting a 360 or PS3, but nothing more as of yet), and there have been quite a few games that I would like to play, but can't, since they haven't been ported to the Wii.
There is a lovely chicken and egg problem here that most people don't realize. Even if Nintendo released a more conventional system, they would still have problems getting mature games on their system. Further complicating the problem, development costs are much more expensive for HD games and Nintendo hardware was growing less popular at the time. I don't think a lot of the popular Xbox 360 and PS3 would have made it to Nintendo's console either way.
Parent
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I didn't say that graphics don't matter. I said they don't HAVE TO matter.
By catering to a different demographic, graphics aren't an issue. The hardcore gamer who wants the best looking games will pick up the PS3/360 first. The casual gamer will pick up the Wii first.
Re: (Score:2)
Nintendo has proven graphics don't have to matter.
When there's a more interesting improvement, at least to the novice gamers. The touch screen and the wiimote are new control devices that attracted a lot of attention and sold a lot of consoles. If nintendo had a standard controller for the wii, it would be selling dead last. That would be partially because of the graphics issue, but I think more because of the dearth of quality games for it.
Of course, you could argue that more people would make games for the wii if it weren't for the controller situatio
Re: (Score:2)
Nintendo has proven graphics don't have to matter.
Nintendo has mainly shown that graphics don't matter for *them*, if you look at third party developers you get a whole different picture, graphics matter a lot of them, which is why none of them has their big games on the Wii, the big money goes into PS3 and Xbox360 titles.
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Video games for all the family (Score:2)
Why stop at schoolchildren? We need a video game console that toddlers will find comfort from too [today.com].
(The Atari 2600 will rise again! As a cuddly toy!)
Mod this down fuckers! (Score:3, Funny)
Mod this down fuckers!
NIntendo always innovated controllers (Score:5, Funny)
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
well, imagine small and light position sensors placed in velcro bands that are then placed in the elbows, knees, ankles, waist, shoulders and head, plus a wii-mote and nunchuk.
With this, you get (almost) full body motion capture without having to do the nightmare of trying to sell several sizes of "gaming suits"
Re: (Score:3, Funny)
And imagine the hilarity when people put them on in the wrong order!
Waist band around your right arm, right arm band around your left leg - ahhh, I can just picture the legendary extensions to physics that the players' avatar will display... :D
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Entertain by surprising? (Score:3, Funny)
That's laughable, considering their penchant for pumping out a Mario, Metroid, and Zelda game with every platform. They've got this innovative hardware, and all they've done is changed it so instead of pressing A to swing your sword, you flick your wrist. You know what would actually be surprising? Opening a treasure chest in the next Zelda game and not having it pause to play the "da da da da da da da da" soundbyte.
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WzrrUM5tkhE [youtube.com]
Re:Entertain by surprising? (Score:4, Insightful)
That's laughable, considering their penchant for pumping out a Mario, Metroid, and Zelda game with every platform.
That's a fair comment. Although they've started other new and successful franchises in the interim too... Pokemon, Pikmin, Animal Crossing, Wii Sports (Wii Sports, Wii Ski, Wii Fit, Wii Sports Resort...)
They've got this innovative hardware, and all they've done is changed it so instead of pressing A to swing your sword, you flick your wrist.
Yes, well anything can be reduced to trivialities if you try hard enough.
Tell me, what was the innovation with the Xbox 360 exactly? Higher resolution textures? Now that's trivial.
And Wii's Changing it from pushing a button to flicking your wrist is a massive understatement of the real effect. The new metroid or re4 controls of point-shoot blow away anything else for immersion. A game like Mercury Meltdown or Rayman Raving Rabbids or Dewey's Adventure or Boxing are dramatically enhanced by the Wii's controller... nevermind the direction they're heading with the Wii Fit.
Parent
wii compaired to other games (Score:2, Insightful)
i guess if Nintendo goes back to the origional idea fo sitting in front of a screen with a joystick and a few buttons then people will look at it like the wii was just and expiriment and was too diffrent for them to do something with.
A Wii Surprise (Score:2)
Right now, the "surprise" I'd most like to see coming from Nintendo is a way to expand the Wii's system storage past 512MB. Especially with the Game Cube and WiiWare titles that are available - it just doesn't take a whole lot to fill up your system.
Wii controllers and future consoles (Score:5, Insightful)
The Wiimote and nunchuck (as well as the other Wii controller accessories) are the biggest innovation in console user interface since 1985, when the NES introduced the horizontal controller form factor that has dominated consoles since then. Nintendo would be making a huge mistake if they went backwards on controller design.
Make it better. It's a winner (Score:5, Interesting)
The WII controller has great ideas in it but it can be made much better.
Currently the accelerometers don't deliver the level of control that would allow the user to wield a "light sabre".
The controller needs to know it's orientation better.
Add position sensing so that controller location itself is an input parameter
Implement this stuff properly http://nz.youtube.com/watch?v=ZBdtPz2V_vY [youtube.com]
Add a microphone to the controller as the mic in the DS proved to have some brilliant uses. (Blow in the mic to inflate balloons is genius)
Add pulse feedback (A magnetic plunger) for strike or fire recoil
Overall, input accuracy will be a key element to make the controller really useful in gaming.
As a hardcore gamer... (Score:5, Insightful)
There is one nitch not being filled: Wii motion controller innovation applied to indepth games.
I consider myself a hardcore gamer, in the sense that I like huge, lengthy epic games that take skill and dedication. I'm not an FPS or gore hound, but I fit into the "hardcore" category nevertheless. I love the Wii's control systems, the attention to innovation, and I'd like to see that applied to more indepth games. Microsoft and Sony aren't offering it, and neither is Nintendo. Why do I have to choose either gameplay innovation or involving games, but not games that offer both? The two aren't mutually exclusive, and I'm sure that a large percentage of hardcore gamers would be more than happy to get their hands on some unique interface innovations.
Where are the point-and-click adventures? Where are the RPGs that use motion sensing and light-gun to add to their gameplay? Lost Winds really demonstrated to me that you can really use the Wiis control system for more creative, and involving types of games (even if the current WiiWare version is just a prologue). Let's get some more of that, or Okami, or epic RPGs... because we're not going to see them on the 360 or PS3 with those kinds of innovations.
So in closing, no... separating the types of games filled by the Wii, 360 and PS3 doesn't satisfy everyone, because it means you can't mix-and-match the abilities of the different units. The Wii has the potential to completely satisfy me with its current capabilities (honestly, I've had an HDTV for almost 2 years now, and I still don't think it makes one shit of difference, and I'm a video producer), I'd just like to see it expand into more involving areas.
Re: (Score:2, Insightful)
Wii = Epic Fail
Which is why it regularly outsells the 360 and PS3 combined.
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
while i do agree with that, (after the 360's price drop, it's lowest model is actually cheaper than the wii) nintendo has absolutely no reason whatsoever to lower their prices. the Wii is still frequently sold out, I've seen some stores with a 2 month waiting list.
when demand is so high, why would they lower their price?
I'd expect a wii price drop only when the xbox 360 starts to outsell the wii, and not a moment sooner.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
What complete innovation to game and system input have you designed and mass marketed? What industries have you revolutionized? What pop culture icons have you invented and embedded into the hearts of minds of people worldwide?
Oh, guess you were too busy posting halfwitted posts on the internet to do anything even remotely important.
You, sir, are the epic failure.
Good day.
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
That was great, I owe you a blowjob.
Meh. (Score:3, Interesting)
Games on PS3 and XBox 360 are the same old same old shit. FPS with a thumb controller? Did we lose a war or something?! Wii is interesting enough to get me back into console gaming from PC games, so I plan to get one.
Re:Meh. (Score:4, Insightful)
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
if you have been looking for a wii for the last year (after the first big shortage), and can't find one then you are:
refusing to pay list price for it
$250 list price for it, or $550 list price for it plus several titles that I may not want?
or live in smalltown without the internet
I've seen "not available online -- check stores" for the Wii console itself and high prices for bundles.
Re:Your nut-guard's wearing thin. (Score:5, Insightful)
PC + Wii = most every major title and genre covered
When I want "good graphics and a complex story line", I fire up the PC... it absolutely destroys the PS3, X360 and Wii for those kinds of games - sure, I have to wait a few months for the games to hit the PC, but so what? I end up paying less for the game, and get a superior experience. The only counter I've heard to that is that "I'm not patient enough to wait for titles to hit PC". I am, so that's moot for me.
On the other hand, when we have people over (usually drinking alcoholic beverages), we fire up the Wii. It's unbeatable in this environment. Never has a gaming device (that I know of) taken the social aspect so far. It's hard to express in words the awesomeness of playing drinking games with the Wii. I am neither a senior citizen or mentally deficient, and I think the Wii is fantastic... but thanks for lumping me in with those groups!
That said, there ARE "mature" games on Wii - just not as many as the PS3 or X360. Plenty of them in fact; more than enough to keep me interested in it for those kinds of games... The PC however eats them all - it's hard to deny that fact.
The PS3 and X360 are good systems, I like them my self - but one need not own either them to experience all the best games that come to market. That's why they can't get a foot up on the Wii.
So, ummm..... I think my point is that you should probably just get over it. The Wii is popular. People like it. It's making gaming a socially acceptable pastime, where it used to be the domain of the geek only. You're entitled to your opinion, but don't act all indignant when people don't agree, and offer their counter points.
</rant>
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Selling the most units / making the most profit does indeed make it the best console
And Windows is the best OS and McDonalds is the best hamburger and Titanic is the best movie
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The PC world had been saying for years that 3D was where it was at, and you could see how well Wolfenstein 3D, Doom and the like took off. It took consoles a while to catch up, but the big thing for me with the N64 was the analog joystick. The 3D implementation wasn't great, and camera was terrible. Not to mention that the PS1 killed the N64 in the number of games and sales, despite many games on the PS1 remaining 2D.
Re:Head tracking (Score:4, Informative)
Problem with head tracking is you need to move your head, but the screen stays put.
Parent