id CEO Claims PC Hardware Manufacturers Love Piracy 676
arcticstoat sends a link to an interview with the CEO of id Software, Todd Hollenshead, in which he suggests that hardware manufacturers count on piracy to help drive profits, rather than doing something to prevent it. Quoting:
"...I think that there's been this dirty little secret among hardware manufacturers, which is that the perception of free content — even if you're supposed to pay for it on PCs — is some sort hidden benefit that you get when you buy a PC, like a right to download music for free or a right to download pirated movies and games. ...And I think that just based on their actions...what they say is one thing, but what they do is another. When it comes into debates about whether peer-to-peer file-sharing networks that by-and-large have the vast majority, I'm talking 99 per cent of the content is illicitly trading copyrighted property, they'll come out on the side of the 1 per cent of the user doing it for legitimate benefit."
What a secret! (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:What a secret! (Score:4, Interesting)
Precisely, that's been the case for decades. Back 20 years ago, it was pretty much assumed that when you got a computer people would come over with disks of commercial software that would be installed.
It makes it hard for me to take piracy complaints seriously since, the actual rates are probably only a fraction of what they used to be. Sure that means more piracy in terms of numbers, but a much smaller amount in terms of actual percentage of users.
Re:What a secret! (Score:5, Interesting)
These days, if my parents buy a computer from anywhere that isn't a big box store, they expect it to come pre-loaded with software - even though they havn't paid for it. Otherwise, the computer doesn't "work", and they've asked them to fix it. That is the price for their customer loyalty (and money).
If I buy a computer with no software, it isn't a problem. I'm plenty capable of installing thousands of dollars of pirated software on it - by my self.
Re:What a secret! (Score:5, Insightful)
You may not have noticed, but a computer does not "work" without software. That's why it's perfectly reasonable for consumers to expect software to come loaded on their new computer. When you buy a cellular phone, do you expect it to come with empty memory so you have to install the communications software on it before you can make a call?
Nobody is forcing Dell or HP or Sony to load tons of junk on their computers when they leave the factory.
Now, speaking to the issue at hand, the idea that computer hardware manufacturers are "in favor of" piracy just because some of them don't want to include DRM in the hardware or firmware is just a bunch of crap. You have a bunch of crybabies saying that "it's their fault" instead of looking at themselves in the mirror.
For example, many people have found that it's just simpler to pay for computer games when they are sold and delivered in a sensible, reasonably-priced manner, such as Steam, instead of downloading them from TPB. So a group of vendors actually thought of a solution instead of trying to turn users into terrorists, and now they're making money and consumers are happy.
A casual home user who needs a word processor shouldn't be expected to lay out $500 for some overblown suite. And thanks to openoffice.org, google docs, etc, we are learning we don't have to. There are even quite a few professionals who find that Open Office works just fine, thank you. There was a time when anyone who wanted to use a computer had to budget in a thousand bucks just to do some basic tasks.
The question isn't whether corporations should make money. It's whether they need a steady stream of ever-increasing record-breaking profits. Pigs do get slaughtered, you know.
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
and sadly, people still pirate $10 cell phone games, software which takes huge amount of work compared to Windows or even OS X. Even more sad? They are running them on $500 smart phones. So there comes DRM, accepted evil being such a de facto standard that I have 3 separate DRM frameworks on my smart phone running Symbian.
Re:What a secret! (Score:4, Insightful)
Is this a joke ? You're not seriously wondering why the radically different skill that writing good software requires results in applications working according to, let's say, different philosophies ?
The only thing right about apple's interface is the consistency. Can you point me to a way to use anything OTHER THAN ITUNES to get an mp3 playing on my iphone ? Apple is "nice" as long as you toe the line. The only thing apple does a little bit right is consistency across it's interface. Mac OS is impractical, paternalistic in the extreme, and pushy as hell ... and yes it's a bit nicer to look at than linux or windows.
This consistency is pushed onto software developers from apple headquarters with, to say the very least, an iron fist.
While this made users initially happy, for obvious reasons developers didn't like it. They hated apple, from the beginning, and the hate only grew stronger. So there weren't all that many developers, and therefore not too many apps for apple.
And then microsoft came along. And gave developers visual basic. Easy to use, fast to get results, but to say the least, not perfect. Obviously given that you "just want to develop something", you "want to give developing a try" you're (and this is still true) going to do it on windows. This was true long before windows became anywhere near dominant in the marketplace.
Therefore there's MANY more apps for windows. And before that all applications ran on DOS. Why ? Because that was cheap and easy. Getting an app to run on mac os/iphone is both expensive, difficult, and you have to pass apple's "commisar". DOS/Windows doesn't force stuff onto you. I'm going to get a lot of flak for this post, but just look at the exact same situation :
matlab vs mathematica. Mathematica is beautiful. Nicely built, nice to look at. And a veritable thumbscrew to develop in, just like mac os. Matlab gets results, and is beyond ugly in design. It's literally a deep dark pit in the ground and you can see a faint red light glowing at the bottom. Yet nearly everyone jumps in the matlab pit.
The exact same situation you have with iphone versus windows smartphones. Why do you only have skype on windows smartphones ? Why do you only have good calculators on windows smartphones ? Why do you only have on windows smartphones ... no developer keys, and no restrictions on what you can put on devices. It gets worse. The physical restrictions of windows mobile are MUCH, MUCH worse than those of the iphone. Apple has loosened up a tiny little bit. But that loosening is costing the iphone in consistency, and a lot. It's loosing it's beauty, but it works better.
In the end it's similar to communism/socialism versus capitalism : central planning/forced consistency looks good, and IF you like the guy that's currently at the wheel it may work for a little while. Everything may not work, but at least it looks like it actually fits. Capitalism is a thousand trumpets blowing completely out of sync. But when you have to live with it central planning/communism/socialism is a death knell, and capitalism gets things done (1000 ways will fail, 1 will work, that's the way of capitalism. The 1000 that fail are not a pretty picture, and the one that does gets "all the glory". Communism/socialism/central planning only tries one way, or maybe a few. If those few tries fail ... then it's over. No matter how many people know how to solve the problem, nobody else gets to try)
You see that with the olympics in China : the top layer looks beautiful. Lots of nice girls, beautiful city (for the moment). But ... it's being forced onto the people at gunpoint. And apple's "easy to use more attractive software" is also being forced at (the proverbial cryptographical-development-keys) gunpoint. It looks nice if the person holding the gun is trying to impress you. It does not look good AT ALL if you're on the other end of the gun.
And developers, the people you as a user depend on, are on the barrel end of apple's gun.
Who do you think is going to win after the "oooh" factor wears off ? Apple is currently a blip, a drop on a hot plate. It will shine ... for a short while. Then *poof*.
Re:What a secret! (Score:4, Informative)
None of what you say is true for OS X development. The whole "commissar" bit is great emotive writing, but flawed because it's simply untrue.
iPhone development definitely has some issues when it comes to developing apps that you want to sell at Apple's online store, but you just can't extend that to OS X development and go on a tirade with any honesty.
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
Can I write gui's for mac os x with some language other than objective-c yet?
Yes [apple.com], easily [rubycocoa.com].
Time to update your worldview. (Score:3, Insightful)
Nope. Apple won't poof. Microsoft's day in the sun was due to the cheapness of their products. Now that everyone has a computer they would like to get a GOOD one. Thats where Apple's Mac OS X comes in. Its been gaining in marketshare over both Windows AND Linux. Thats not an anomaly.
All that other stuff you listed is SO irrelevant to the non-engineer/geek customer. No one but such folks cares that Apple requires people to go through the "commisar" to develop for the iPhone. And no developing for the iPhone
Our worldview differ simply because (Score:4, Informative)
I'm a developer, who actually analyses & writes code for a living. Code that actually has to work (actually I'm a consultant, currently developing for a bank, the current instance of the database that my code has to work against was, I'm not kidding, started before I was born. And it's still running. How do you query it ? You take a terminal change "a part of the 80x25 screen" (I'm not kidding), then write "+SAM" and it executes everything above the current cursor and changes the text into the response. Now imagine doing that from C++ code. That's what "it needs to work" means. Oh btw, this method of working is, I kid you not, called "EASY". And apparently, compared to it's predecessor, it is easy).
Let's say I want to start apple programming, let's evaluate what I need :
-> an apple desktop or laptop. The bottom end or second-hand simply won't run os X (or won't run it acceptably or for very long), we're talking at least $1300 to $1800. I can only buy this directly from apple, no competition or alternatives exist here
-> a membership of apple's "development club" : $99 (a month I believe)
-> I need to get my software into the apple stores and into shop.apple.com, because there is no other channel. And if it doesn't follow apple's interpretation of the "user interface guidelines" (which quicktime violates rougly in the manner a fat pakistani violates a goat) it's just not going to happen
-> I need to learn & develop my software in objective C. Again, there is no (useable) alternative with support from apple. To add insult to injury, nobody else uses objC (well I believe there is a linux desktop environment in the language).
On windows ... buy myself a $499 laptop (which will more than do, and come with windows). I pick whatever company I want (one that's close for example) to sell it to me. I get a beer the next time I see the guy selling it to me in a cafe. I download visual studio express (which knocks the socks of xcode, but I will fully admit xcode is useable), which let's me develop, fully supported (and even free) in C#, C++, Basic, F#, Python (after a few downloads from microsoft reasearch). I download another dev environment, eclipse (by ibm) or one by sun, and I develop in java. I download another and develop in pascal. Support is available, even from microsoft, for all of these languages, and they're open and widely used, including used by microsoft.
I go to the nearest company, and they have 10 programs they're willing to pay me to develop. I go to the nearest shop, even did this with a supermarket once, and they're willing to sell boxed versions of software I wrote. There are thousands of places like that within a kilometer of where I live.
And you're seriously wondering why microsoft wins ?
You are suffering from PDD, in that you're a user, and you're blaming me for not going to 10x more trouble to develop for mac os x for half the price, because "it looks better".
But we all know the real deal : you want me to jump through 10 times more hoops to sell applications to you, and I will ask you 10 times the price of a windows application.
Of course, you consider this unfair.
To that, I will respond with a fully meant, eloquently put and most satisfying "fuck you". Then you do not buy, I cut my losses and go back to windows. Cya !
Re: (Score:2)
Software piracy drove sales of the Amiga. Every single Amiga owner I knew, including myself, pirated software. Though most did do the decent thing and buy the good titles. (Anything from Sensible, a lot of Microprose stuff etc...) The fact is being able to get free stuff was a MASSIVE selling point for the hardware.
A lot of people claim that piracy is what ultimately killed the Amiga. That was completely untrue in my experience. What really killed the Amiga was id Software releasing "Doom".
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
What really killed the Amiga was id Software releasing "Doom".
What really killed the Amiga was "mismanagement".
Re:What a secret! (Score:5, Interesting)
PC games were pirated too, just as much if not more than Amiga games...
There were still plenty of games coming out, they just weren't as good as other platforms any more... The other platforms had caught up and surpassed the Amiga. Piracy had very little to do with it, although the rampant anti-piracy brigade did a lot to drive what few Amiga users had internet access away from the platform....
Pay for a TCP stack...
Pay for a (pretty crap) telnet client...
Pay for a (massively inferior to other platforms) web browser...
Pay for an IRC client
I mean come on, what other platform did quite so much to discourage uptake of the internet? And if you did pirate any of those apps, you could expect to be shunned from any amiga related forums.
The IRC client especially had a backdoor allowing people to see if it was pirated or not, if you went on irc to an amiga related channel with a pirated client you would get banned.
I recently tried setting up an old amiga i had in my loft, i was unable to acquire any of the software aside from demo versions... Even if i was willing to pay for it, none of the sites which sold it are still up, the only versions available are crippleware which crash out after 30 minutes.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Easy explanation. The Amiga was already considered a commercial dead-end by the time the Internet became popular in 1994-5, and Commodore folded soon afterwards.
Admittedly the platform lived on for years with third party hardware/software support, but practically nobody considered 'alive' in this time period.
The days before OpenOffice (Score:5, Insightful)
Back when PCs came preloaded, there wasn't Lotus Symphony, Paint.NET, GIMP, Thunderbird etc. There was Lotus 1-2-3, Photoship, WinFax and Eudora - all pay-to-use, and later on crippled versions for "free". If you couldn't pay, the only alternative was piracy.
Open Source gives the freedom NOT to use pirated material.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
And yet, by and large, people still aren't choosing that freedom.
For everyone who's running Open Office, I bet there's a dozen pirated copies of Office.
Re: (Score:2)
True, that does seem to be almost a given. PC Hardware manufacturers sales are usually betting on people needing their current line to run the latest and greatest of games. A wider base of PC owners who can access these games at 0 cost adds a nice incentive for these owners to then legitimately upgrade their PC's. That is entirely aside from the fact that being ABLE to pirate is seen by many consumers as a primary function of PCs to begin with.
Heck, this isn't even new. I know more than one person who had p
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
The thing is...
Most people have limited budgets...
You can't get up to date hardware for free.
So you have a choice...
A slower computer and a small set of paid software
A faster computer and a large set of pirated or free software
There's really no comparison is there.
But does it run Linux? (Score:3, Interesting)
If the claim in TFA were true, wouldn't we see lots of manufacturers pushing Linux? If they see pirated software as having a significant effect on demand for their product, they should see free software as having the same effect?
I suspect that they are just indifferent.
Re:But does it run Linux? (Score:5, Insightful)
That doesn't even begin to make sense, I'm afraid.
One: Linux is basically unknown. Yes, we as Slashdotters know about it, and it runs on eight bajillion items, but the end user still remains basically ignorant.
Two: Linux doesn't require upgrades (in fact, it could really be argued that upgrading to the latest and greatest is a really bad thing for a Linux user, what with driver issues and all).
Three: Most of that pirated software won't run on Linux (or requires a bunch of screwing around to get working, hello WINE), so using Linux isn't a plus for people who want to avail themselves of that pirated content.
Open source software isn't the same as getting commercial software for free. As much as some of the gnulots around here would like you to believe, most of the time commercial software is still better--for an end user, although not always (or even often) from a technical perspective. (Just look at Windows versus any of the major Linux DEs. It's pretty obvious that Microsoft has UI experts and programmers who are paid to work with them, as opposed to "scratch your own itch" open source programmers. Nobody can, or should try to, force open source programmers to work on them, but there is a corresponding failure of usability inherent in such.)
Re:But does it run Linux? (Score:5, Insightful)
Why would a hardware maker of any sort want to back a platform that decreases the incentive to upgrade and buy more hardware?
Re:But does it run Linux? (Score:5, Funny)
Built like an M1 Abrams, it is a hardware manufacturer's worst nightmare. Lesser, more "modern" laptops with their shiny metallic cases and accelerometer-protected hard drives would shit their boot sectors at the merest mention of the horrors this computational Sisyphus has endured. It is a laptop for the End of Days; I've faster gear, and I've better looking gear, but when the zombie apocalypse finally jumps off, I know which laptop will be strapped to my back while I grind my way through fields of the undead with shotgun and machete. It weighs somewhere around 12 lbs fully loaded, sports a crudely spray-painted camouflage paint job and, in a pinch, can be used as a bludgeoning weapon.
Re:But does it run Linux? (Score:4, Insightful)
I shouldn't feed such a blatant troll but what the hell.
'One: Linux is basically unknown. Yes, we as Slashdotters know about it, and it runs on eight bajillion items, but the end user still remains basically ignorant.'
That would depend on the crowd, most of the people I talk to now have heard of linux even if they don't know what it is. However, most of them don't know what windows is either.
'Two: Linux doesn't require upgrades (in fact, it could really be argued that upgrading to the latest and greatest is a really bad thing for a Linux user, what with driver issues and all).'
What driver issues? My last two new system builds loaded without the need for additional drivers. Firmware needed to be downloaded to run my wireless adapter properly but Ubuntu helpfully does that for me.
'Open source software isn't the same as getting commercial software for' free.
your right, for the most part I've found the popular open source software better than commercial offerings.
'(Just look at Windows versus any of the major Linux DEs. It's pretty obvious that Microsoft has UI experts and programmers who are paid to work with them'
Yes, the programmers obviously didn't care about what they were doing and the UI is horrible. It actually gets worse with age. The MacOS UI is better but still fails to measure up to Gnome or KDE.
Re:But does it run Linux? (Score:4, Insightful)
I shouldn't feed such a blatant troll but what the hell.
Not a troll. I'm an open-source developer. I just don't drink the kool-aid and I'm willing to admit that we still have work to do.
That would depend on the crowd, most of the people I talk to now have heard of linux even if they don't know what it is. However, most of them don't know what windows is either.
Meaningless statement.
What driver issues? My last two new system builds loaded without the need for additional drivers. Firmware needed to be downloaded to run my wireless adapter properly but Ubuntu helpfully does that for me.
As said so frequently on Linux Hater's Blog [blogspot.com], WorksForMe(tm) is not an acceptable answer.
your right, for the most part I've found the popular open source software better than commercial offerings.
Perhaps for you it's easier. For most people, it seems like the popular open source software is vastly inferior. People would rather pay for MS Office than use OpenOffice. People would rather pay for Visio than use Dia. People would rather pay for Photoshop than use The GIMP. If they were inferior, why would this be so?
Yes, the programmers obviously didn't care about what they were doing and the UI is horrible. It actually gets worse with age. The MacOS UI is better but still fails to measure up to Gnome or KDE.
Telling the GNOME and KDE developers feel-good lies like this doesn't help. Echo chambers are bad.
Re: (Score:3)
'As said so frequently on Linux Hater's Blog [blogspot.com]'
Clearly, I should run everything by Linux Hater's Blog from now on.
'WorksForMe(tm) is not an acceptable answer.'
If you say so. Working for an IT consulting firm I install hundreds of Linux and thousands of windows systems each week. While your chances of picking random cheap hardware off the shelf and having it be made to work are better on windows there is broad Linux support now. With windows there generally 4 or 5 drivers to be installed after y
Re:But does it run Linux? (Score:4, Insightful)
Somewhat. I mean to imply that Linux doesn't benefit from the "look, software you don't have to pay for!" effect because the shiny new hardware generally works like shit on it, and there's no real economic reason for hardware manufacturers to go out of their way to support Linux because there are so few users. It's a catch-22, and a thorny one.
Re:But does it run Linux? (Score:4, Funny)
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
Perhaps it's more obvious to me because I know some of them. ;-)
And this might surprise you, but of the folks I know who work at Microsoft, I can't think of one who doesn't own a Mac and/or also run Linux. They take note of what works and adapt it.
The people who say "OMG, Windows is unusable, GNOME is so awesome," etc. etc., are doing more harm to their cause than good. The majority of people who claim that GNOME, KDE, or whatever else is great are generally just used to its failings. (I'm including myself
Re:But does it run Linux? (Score:5, Insightful)
Manufacturers tell people all the time what to want. It's called advertising.
Re:What a secret! (Score:4, Insightful)
Not only that but IP industry is the horse and buggy industry of the 21st century, why exactly do these people deserve our protection? Should we have protected the horse and buggy industry from going obsolete?
Oh, please. This analogy gets brought up into every single fucking IP discussion on this site, and it is always way the hell off base. There is no brave new industry that is making something better than what the software makers are making now... people are just taking what they make for free. When someone is making a new type of thing which obsoletes software, get back to me, and then you can use the buggy whip analogy. Until then, stuff it, because it doesn't apply one bit.
In any other area if we were capable of replicating matter and energy for food so entire industries would collapse over night, they would be seen as horrible people from trying to stop such technology from being used by people.
Yes, and that is because the work in those areas is the reproduction of the product. The work in IP is actually creating the thing you wish to sell, reproduction is and always has been effortless. When someone comes up with a way to instantly and effortlessly create a new piece of software which you want, then your analogy will apply.
Good God, why is is that no one on /. who opposes IP even understands the issue at hand?
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Good God, why is is that no one on /. who opposes IP even understands the issue at hand?
Because they are mostly kids who have never created anything of value.
Act of creation vs. act of propagation (Score:3, Insightful)
Because they are mostly kids who have never created anything of value.
The main problem comes from the fact that while, as you report, creating something of value is the most difficult part, currently what is charged by the economic model is the propagation of said creations, something that the average kid can do for free as easily as a finger snap.
And that's why the current model used by the media industry is as obsolete as the horse/buggy metaphor. It's not that they have been replaced by something better, it's just that they have become irrelevant.
The media market needs to
years ago Piracy give windows and office a big.... (Score:5, Insightful)
years ago Piracy give windows and office a big boost to where they are now.
Re:years ago Piracy give windows and office a big. (Score:5, Informative)
Windows 3.1 and WFW 3.11 came on something like 11-13 floppy disks and there was NO copy protection of any kind. NONE. People were used to DOS but could now have this fancy GUI-driven "operating system" for the cost of a box of 3.5" floppies. NO ONE that I knew in the PC world ever had to buy a copy of Windows 3.1 because they always had either a friend or someone at work who had the floppies.
The availability of Windows 3.1 through piracy "sneakernet" made it the de facto standard on all PCs once it was clear that the world was leaving DOS and going to Windows. That laid down almost the entire user base for Windows 95, who then moved to 98, etc.
The dominance of most of the major software out there ESPECIALLY Windows is due to piracy, and the software companies know it.
Simplest solution to stopping "piracy" (Score:3, Insightful)
Ditch perpetual copyrights. I say give corps 3-5 years to turn a profit and then it becomes public domain. For individuals a bit longer, but if you still can't make money, well, time to go back to plumber school I guess.
What's next? We keep paying doctors every few years for prior services rendered? Or how about the contractor that built your house you continue to live in?
Re:Simplest solution to stopping "piracy" (Score:5, Insightful)
Care to elaborate how this would stop piracy? Obviously after that date nobody can pirate those products anymore but the vast majority of piracy (at least the piracy that really bothers software developers and movie makers) occurs in the first 6 months of release.
Are you suggesting that people knowing that the copyright will expire sooner will cause them to wait 5 years until things are available legally for free? I honestly don't think that's true, so unless you've got something to back that up I think we can discount that as a valid argument - especially given that 90% of games are available for a fiver in the bargain bin within 18 months of release.
I'm no fan of DRM, Trusted Computing, or any other anti-piracy measure currently employed by major software publishers, but I don't see how copyright law has any tangible relationship to this subject.
Re:Simplest solution to stopping "piracy" (Score:4, Insightful)
You're right it wouldn't END piracy, it would certainly reduce the scope of what is piracy.
I've lost or had discs become damaged to no fault of my own. I have gone out and downloaded new copies, but under current terms, I'd be a pirate, despite having paid for the game (in many cases full retail price as opposed to waiting for it to be in the fiver bin.).
You reduce the scope of piracy and then can focus better on the actual problem (people downloading something they haven't paid for.). Much of the time this crying about piracy is just a blanket term used to go after anyone downloading anything.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Reduce the scope, leaving more resources to pursue that reduced scope.
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
Are you suggesting that people knowing that the copyright will expire sooner will cause them to wait 5 years until things are available legally for free?
Only if you form a "copyright police" to go around and rough up everyone who doesn't conform... At which point we start extending copyright again.
There's no obvious solution to the problem of copyright. Frankly, there must be a basic moral issue at question here someplace; perhaps it's over whether the creator of a work has a right to reassign ownership, or perhaps it's over whether it's right for a corporation (which has no "soul" whatever that means to you and can in theory live eternally) to receive that
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People pay for artists' prints, which while a tangible item are but copies. So we're going to gank them too, right?
What about books? Authors earn royalties off those for years! How DARE they?! (Never mind that a five-year copyright would essentially make most books thoroughly unprofitable--good job killing off what remains of the American market for books!)
Oh, wait. Sorry, I forgot. You do want software you don't have to pay for. The side effects of your desires don't matter, because you don't have to pay f
Re: (Score:2)
Oh. Almost forgot. "For individuals a bit longer"--well, that still screws over most authors. And corporations will just assign the copyright to the corporation's owner or something similar, and you get the same benefits as an individual. Smooth!
Re:Simplest solution to stopping "piracy" (Score:4, Insightful)
For the record, my publisher is based in the USA, and regards 3,000 sales as the minimum needed to make a profit. This works out to less than two sales per day over five years. Any book that can't do that well probably shouldn't be published anyway.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
I did read the Gowers Report; I disagree with some of the claims made in it (chiefly among them the failure to take into account the likelihood of people just not buying titles because they know that they'll be free not that far down the line), but more importantly I also wasn't clear enough in my post. Yes, a publisher is profitable off a small number of books. In your publisher's case, three thousand sales is the minimum for the publisher to make a profit. When I talk about books being unprofitable, I'm s
Re:Simplest solution to stopping "piracy" (Score:5, Insightful)
With regards to "The ones that are still selling well after this period..." -- well, why the hell should they be prevented from continuing to profit?
Why should they be allowed to? Copyright exists for one purpose - to encourage people to create. Once they have made enough profit that it was worth creating it in the first place, then copyright has already served its purpose. If shortening the copyright term encourages people to write more then that's even better, although most of the people still making a significant profit after five years already made enough that they never need to write again.
You claim to be speaking on behalf of writers, but most of us don't want you to. You'd be surprised how few authors support copyright terms longer than 5-10 years. They don't benefit us, they don't benefit society, and they make people less willing to respect copyright in general.
Lame logic (Score:4, Interesting)
The only real difference between a software product and a hardware product like a car is that the "manufacturing plant" for software product usually costs about $1000 operable by a single person, whereas the one for car costs $1,000,000,000 and must be operated by a team of people.
I'm always amused by the level of altruism of people in the software field -- to the point of idiotic -- no professionals in other fields are so eager to eliminate their competitive barriers.
Re:Simplest solution to stopping "piracy" (Score:5, Insightful)
There's a huge difference between tangible property and intellectual property.
Don't mingle the two.
Re: (Score:2, Interesting)
Tell that to the folks that are paid because if intellectual property.
The problem is, in reality, all "intellectual property" has maybe five years left to it. At that point the non-cooperation between nations will mean that if it isn't stolen and remarketed by someone in the West, it will be done from Asia. The pirates are there today with a goal of eliminating the revenue from digital media as well.
Creativity will NOT be rewarded in the future. Too bad, because we have so little of it anyway.
Re:Simplest solution to stopping "piracy" (Score:5, Insightful)
Creativity will NOT be rewarded in the future.
On the contrary. Creativity is precisely what will be rewarded in the future. It is distributors who will not be rewarded because the market for distribution of ideas was obsoleted by the internet. But creativity will always be in demand.
Re:Simplest solution to stopping "piracy" (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:Simplest solution to stopping "piracy" (Score:5, Insightful)
Define property.
This is where the problem starts. Once we can agree on this point, then we can move forward. The problem is that the sides of this debate define property differently. Many people define property as tangible stuff that they own. Other people define property as stuff that the courts will enforce your right to control.
The right to control is the most basic property right, so it makes sense that some folks will use that definition. But most people deal with the right in the context of their house, their clothes, or their car, but not in the context of ideas or expressions.
Until we agree on a meaning, the sides will be talking past each other.
--AC
Re:Simplest solution to stopping "piracy" (Score:5, Insightful)
Why does every discussion of IP have to include someone pretending to not see the difference between a product with unlimited supply (data), and a product with a supply of one (the GP's house)? You know it's not the same thing, so why the silly act?
Instead, how about you explain how giving data artificial value through copyright is A Good Thing, and stop with this silly argument already?
Re: (Score:2, Insightful)
Using the same argument, only a few people can have christianity. You can't have any religion, because I've taken it all!
Re: (Score:2, Insightful)
You know it's not the same thing, so why the silly act?
But it is, in a very real and very important way.
The workman's effort was expended to create that house. The workman's effort was expended to create that software. Why should the programmer not be rewarded for it? (Or are you one of those mouthbreathers who really thinks that a company like Epic is going to write its next Unreal engine based on donations?)
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Why does every discussion of IP have to include someone pretending to not see the difference between a product with unlimited supply (data), and a product with a supply of one (the GP's house)?
This is because people (probably starting from the content cabal) have obfuscated the definition of "intellectual property" so that it now colloquially refers to music, movies, games, stories, etc. - the intangible ideas or data which you noted are unlimited (or undefined) in quantity. Ideas aren't property, nor do they resemble property, primarily because they don't exhibit scarcity.
Intellectual property actually refers to the copyrights, patents, or trademark rights themselves. While these items are int
ISPs too... (Score:3, Insightful)
ISPs are not much better with blatant advertising.
"Download movies at top speed!"
Missed opportunity for a follow-up question (Score:5, Insightful)
Q: It's the barrier-for-entry thing isn't it? It's really easy to pirate PC games whereas console games are much harder to pirate so the returns are better. What can PC hardware manufacturers do to make it harder for pirates?
Todd Hollenshead: There's lots of things that they could do but [...]
The next question should have been:
Such as what? What exactly are you proposing hardware manufacturers do about software piracy and peer-to-peer networking? You've said there's lots they can do but provided no examples. Give some.
This would be the scary part. (Score:2)
I suspect it would be something like a TPM chip, or better support for making sure you're talking to an optical drive (and not Daemontools)...
You know, the kind of thing that most people wouldn't notice, would cause serious headaches for some of us (and potentially lock Linux out -- again)...
And, of course, do absolutely nothing to stop piracy.
The PC isn't a console. That's the fucking point. If I wanted a console, I would have one already -- they're cheap. Probably will get one anyway -- but I'll still pla
Re: (Score:2)
But.. when you can buy a PC for the same price as a console AND get all your games for free - why buy a console?
Re:Missed opportunity for a follow-up question (Score:4, Insightful)
Such as what? What exactly are you proposing hardware manufacturers do about software piracy and peer-to-peer networking? You've said there's lots they can do but provided no examples. Give some.
The easiest is a USB dongle, a lot of the more serious companies just do that.
That's a hardware solution, but it's provided by the software developer/publisher. There's nothing preventing Id or any other software producer using USB dongles right now (beyond it cutting into their bottom line of course). Todd Hollenshead seems to think there's something the hardware manufacturers themselves should be doing to make life easier for software developers.
And what if you are that one % (Score:2)
Really why should they be punished in any way?
I am not pro piracy at all but the simple answer is to bust the pirates or better yet offer the stuff on line for a reasonable price DRM free.
I for one think $.99 is a bit high for one track but I would pay that one TV show for sure.
Hack you could even leave in the ads if it was for free.
As far as software. I actually don't pirate video games. I know that is odd but that is just the way I am. Now I will download cracks for the games I buy just so I don't have to
"...rather than doing something to prevent it." (Score:5, Insightful)
Re: (Score:2)
I think the particular CEO that stated hardware manufacturers should be responsible would like to see a reversal of all the progress we've seen in the
Confused CEO (Score:4, Interesting)
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
I duno about that (Score:5, Insightful)
The Doom 3 engine, which is what everything since then has been based on, really fails to impress me. Several problems:
1) It doesn't look as good as it should for the hardware requirements. I remember when Doom 3 came out, my PC struggled with it despite being decent. Had to run it at 800x600. No big deal... Except that it really didn't back that up with beauty. For example if you got close to a surface, you started to see pixelization of textures, even with it set on ultra detail. The game just used pretty low rez textures, and had nothing like the detail textures that the Unreal Engine uses to deal with close up viewing.
2) It was too concerned about being "realistic" not enough about looking good. The lighting model is a great example. They wanted 100% dynamic lighting, meaning there was no magic global lights, all lights had a source. Great... Except their lights didn't reflect or refract. Light would hit a surface and bounce only once. If it went to the camera, ok you saw it. Anywhere else, it went away. This lead to the hard shadows and the extremely dark corners. You could have a corner with two bright lights right by it, but if neither shined directly back in there, the corner would be pitch black because there isn't any reflected light. While that may be more "correct" than models used by some games, I don't care, it doesn't look as good and that's what matters.
3) The games had little replay value. Doom 3 in particular was all about shock value. I've gotta say, it was a scary game to play the first time through. However, it lost all that after the first run. When you know the imp is standing behind the door to ambush you, it's not so scary anymore. With the scare factor gone, it was really a fairly mediocre shooter in my opinion.
4) Poor backward scaling. While the Doom 3 engine now runs on what is quite old hardware, when it came out it was very much a Crysis. It needed first flight hardware to run. It wasn't just that you had to have it to look good, you needed it to run at all. DX8 or better hardware was mandatory. All the peopel with DX7 hardware were SOL. Well, many other games scaled much better. They had to give up shiny features on older hardware, but they still ran.
Over all I think iD has really dropped the ball recently and I think it shows in engine sales. Unreal Engine has been vastly outselling the iD Tech engine. Their problems with sales don't come from piracy, but from lack of quality. Their games, as you said, are not great. I gave Quake 4 a pass, and same for Enemy Territory. Decided to get Unreal Tournament 3 instead. Their engine is also getting almost no licenses. People are buying the Unreal Engine instead. No surprise there either. UE 3 looks fantastic, and scales quite well. It may not be as technologically "correct" as Id's engine in terms of lighting and such, but who care? Ultimately it looks awesome and that is what you are paying for.
I get tired of companies that release poor quality products blaming poor sales on piracy. This is especially true for companies that release shit that requires the highest end, most badass computer. Crytek was whining about that with Crysis. "Oh we only sold a million copies, those evil pirates are killing us!" Hmmm, you think maybe instead the reason you only sold a million copies is because you need, as Yahtzee put it, a hypothetical future computer from space to play it well? I gave Crysis a miss because looking at benchmarks, it wouldn't have run well on my system. When I came out, I had an 8800 GTS, not the top of the line, but damn near it in terms of video cards. Reason I had it is I have a large LCD. I want games to run nice and fast on that large LCD. They do to. However the Crysis benchmarks showed it didn't. Maybe if I had 2 8800 GTXes it would have, but my lowly GTS (a $400 card I might add) wasn't enough. Ok, well I didn't need that, so I passed on it.
Well same shit with Doom 3. I did actually pick that one up but it really ran pathetic. I wasn't rocking top of the line graphics hardware, but
comments are a long way from shareware (Score:5, Insightful)
old school id, 3d realms and apogee folk must be cringing at this kind of comment for it was the shareware "revolution" that created the major games industries we see today. if TH starts anti-piracy trolling, someone might have to remind him of his roots: episodic gaming is just the connect equivalent.
Manufactures like sales. (Score:4, Funny)
Really? No kidding.
You've gotta love the blame game (Score:5, Insightful)
It is complete and utter nonsense that hardware makers should be somehow held accountable for the dissatisfaction of software makers.
Software was free to begin with. The idea that software is a product is the notion that doesn't quite work. Hardware makers follow industry standard specs for the most part and add benefits here and there and ultimately strive to lower costs. It's a classical capitalistic market. Supply and demand rules fit neatly here.
Software, on the other hand, does not. The supply is LIMITLESS and the demand is limited. Software-as-a-product people are attempting to create a market where none naturally exists. But this is generally the case of all products that have a limitless capacity for production.
One fact is known by all players -- lower costs bring more buyers. Software people know this too. Unfortunately, they believe their "product" is worth more than is actually is. The "demand" side of the equation demonstrates that demand levels at the prices they set does not always yield the sale numbers that suppliers would like to see.
In some extreme cases, software people seem to believe that the use of software should determine its value. Ultimately, software people are intending to leverage their software to get a piece of your labor pie. Just look at the cost of CAD or other design and engineering software. The prices are utterly ridiculous! Their expectation is that people who use this software will probably make a lot of money and as such, they want a lot of the users' money. Could you imagine what would happen to the price of other tools simply because they might be used to create some very expensive product or end result? My god, those would be some expensive hammers and nails! It is unrealistic for software makers to demand such exorbitant prices.
Meanwhile, real product makers will go on doing what they do -- give the consumer what they want for the lowest price they can so that consumers will buy more of it.
the blame game (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
The supply is LIMITLESS and the demand is limited.
Well... not exactly. What happens when people stop producing software?
Re: (Score:2)
Just look at the cost of CAD or other design and engineering software. The prices are utterly ridiculous! Their expectation is that people who use this software will probably make a lot of money and as such, they want a lot of the users' money.
CAD tools have to be rich and well designed; engineering companies are happy to pay for software which saves 5% of an engineer's time, because an engineer's time is so much more expensive than any CAD tool.
If you think the prices are ridiculous then don't pay, but don't use that as justification for piracy. You say the supply is limitless, but you seem to be conveniently forgetting that the software has to be developed in the first place.
Meanwhile, real product makers will go on doing what they do -- give the consumer what they want for the lowest price they can so that consumers will buy more of it.
And ironically most of these "real product makers" will be using CA
Re:You've gotta love the blame game (Score:4, Insightful)
Perhaps, but the big, big problem is that software has almost zero marginal cost, and huge capital cost. In the example of CAD and engineering software, the market is really quite niche, but good tools are extremely valuable to that market: if an engineer's time is worth $140k in salary and benefits, a tool that improves his productivity threefold is easily worth $5k a license.
The expectation is not only that people make a lot of money using the tools, but that there are not many of them. If Pro/E had an user base as large as Word, they could afford to charge the same price, even though their product is vastly more complicated and fault sensitive.
Translation (Score:5, Insightful)
"Please give us a hardware-based lockdown solution for software authorization."
Re: (Score:2)
Re:Translation (Score:4, Insightful)
Computers are tools and tools should do what their owners want. If I want to use a wrench as a hammer there is nothing stopping me. Would you want a wrench that if you tried to use it as a hammer it would shock you or better yet report back to some authority that you are misusing your tool?
The owner of the computer should have ultimate control over the hardware and software. Hardware that disobeys the owners wishes won't sell well. Look at Vista, it's sales have no doubt been hurt by it's inbuilt copy protection system. A system that prevents the computers owner from doing what they want to do in some cases.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Oh, right, because you just want to use his software for free.
Not their job (Score:4, Insightful)
It's not the hardware manufacturers' job to police for pirated software. Most of them--Apple being the notable exception--couldn't care less about the software running their hardware. The drivers and whatnot are a means to an end, a necessary bother in order to actually make their hardware usable.
In some cases, they don't even have to do anything to get their hardware working in certain operating systems--the users do it for them!
To say that hardware manufacturers love piracy is a misstatement. Hollenshead's point is moot. Hardware folks just want to sell hardware, just like ISPs just want to sell bandwidth: they don't care what you do with it once you purchase it because they don't need to.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
ISPs DON'T want to sell bandwidth, they want people to buy their flat-rate service, then use as little bandwidth as possible. ISPs throttle or kick off the bandwidth hogs.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Apple couldn't care less what software you run on their hardware either. They DO care what hardware you run their software on.
This argument has been tried before (Score:5, Informative)
Sony Corp. of America v. Universal City Studios, Inc., 464 U.S. 417 (1984) [wikisource.org] (emphasis added)
Here's an idea. (Score:5, Insightful)
Create games that run perfectly on 3 year old computers and people won't spend money on new hardware, and instead (maybe) spend it on software.
Re: (Score:2, Insightful)
Counting on Piracy? (Score:2, Interesting)
This wording hurt me as a loyal customer (Score:3, Insightful)
ID CEO claims may carry some truths, but, for the least, it is as unbalanced as only enlightining the bright side of file sharing.
As a loyal ID Software customer, having baught every one of their games I play, all I can reply to them, is: Please dear brillant market aware ID CEO. Your wording hurt customers like me. Why do you spend time and money dealing with your non-customers, having such twisted juvenile words thrown as FUD in the wild?
It is sad I will have these awkward words in mind , the next time I plan on buying one of your upcomming games.
Numbers and Guilt (Score:3, Interesting)
2) Even if that were true (and I doubt it... I'll give him that most peer-to-peer is probably illegal, but 99%...? Really?), is it still fair to punish the 1% of us that use Bittorrent for Linux ISO's, free software, or the odd WoW patch?
3) Even if ISPs did do away with / block bittorrent or other P2P traffic, you really think the geek thinktank that is the Internet wouldn't come up with something else? Hell, you really want to stop piracy, we oughtta do away with this "Interweb" thingy!
Give it up, gang. No matter what you do, somebody's gonna find a way to steal your crap. Deal with it, and move on. Quit punishing the rest of us for it.
Screw the Other Guy and Pass the Savings on... (Score:4, Interesting)
And again, why should they care? Piracy is not their problem, and it's not worth their R&D time to bolt 'trusted computing' modules onto their products. Suggesting that they have an obligation to act is like suggesting that firearm manufacturers have an obligation to prevent gun-related crimes.
Or maybe... (Score:4, Insightful)
HW manufacturers don't understand why they should cripple their products and lose a buck so Mr. Hollenshead can make a buck.
Consoles are the solution (Score:3, Insightful)
If he really believes what he says then he should simply stop releasing PC games and go console only. Of course there's a another whole set of problems when you go that route. Sounds to me more like a big case of WOW envy.
DRM in the hands for the consumer will always be cracked. It is pointless to try and chase it.
U.S. government is on the side of murderers, too! (Score:3, Interesting)
(caveat: in theory; in practice District Attorneys, and other prosecutors, are more than happy to convict people of crimes they know damn well the defendant didn't commit to further their own agenda(s). In theory, theory always works. In practice it often doesn't.)
Open Platform (Score:3, Insightful)
Kind of stupid to bitch about the very traits of a platform that makes your content viable. Hardware vendors should not be the software police.
Another "dirty" "little" "secret" aka well known (Score:3, Insightful)
Game companies create new games all the time that demand new hardware and the hardware industry then promotes them. Even if those games could run on older hardware and look almost if not just as nice. So Quake was never given away with new graphic hardware? And how about that "the way it's meant to be played"?
Of course... (Score:4, Insightful)
The hardware companies are greedy companies who are perfectly content to screw anyone or look the other way so long as it will improve profits...
Software companies are just the same...
The difference is that hardware companies have more competitors, and much smaller margins, while copyright infringement is much easier than duplicating hardware.
Do you really think that if it was possible to download hardware for free, the software companies wouldn't be doing exactly the same thing trying to get more sales?
How easy one forgets (Score:3, Interesting)
Bring back the code wheels, passwords. (Score:5, Insightful)
I'm sure more than a few /.ers remember the old PC role playing games, with their code wheels and the occasional prompting for "word 4 of paragraph 3 of page 8 of the manual." and whatnot. They were the cheap equivalent of a hardware dongle and while slightly more difficult to duplicate than the 3.5 disks (or CDs) the games came on, in my opinion they gave a great "value added" feel to the experience. Hell, even Metal Gear Solid had something like this - one of the access codes you needed to proceed with the game was printed on the back of the game case. Bugger if you were playing a burned copy!
These methods are ultimately better than a CD check or similar, as they actually engage the player and give them a reason to keep the game packaging around. Unfortunately these days, game packaging is disgustingly minimal - the days of the latest Square RPG coming with giant fold-out maps and equally large fold-outs of bestiary stats and item lists (anyone remember the original Final Fantasy NES packaging? That bigass poster Dragon Warrior came with?) are long gone... ultimately leaving the gamer with "less hassle" as the only reason to buy the game or software instead of downloading it.
I'm not into multiplayer online gaming or mods, custom models, etceteras (probably due to my roots as a console gamer) - I don't want forty multiplayer modes as the "value added" bit for a few hours of single player - I want a keychain fob or a tchotchkey for my tower or something I can hang on my wall. In the box, not available from the company's online store for even more money, thank you.
As long as bits have to be read, piracy will always be an issue. I say stop whinging about it and put in a little extra effort to reward the people that want to give you their money!
Re: (Score:2)
But ... in canada... (Score:2)
... Since we pay that tariff, it has made it impossible to take someone to court over personal use stuff - "But... You already thought I was a pirate when you sold the blank CD to me!"
Ah yes, my point: Filling an ipod with music might not be legal
Re:For hard drives, this is probably true (Score:5, Interesting)
My wife and I, when we combined our CD collection, realised that we had over 300 CDs, with only a handful of duplicates. Our DVD collection is perhaps only 100 or so.
We easily have > 500GB (depending on encoding quality) of media, and I can point to physical discs we've encoded from.
Now maybe it did cost $6000, although I'd say it was far less, but over 20 years of collecting music and stuff, I'd be surprised if by age 35 anyone buying an iPod could *not* fill it with their own stuff. Before we combined I had 30GB of music from my CD collection.
Don't buy into Steve Ballmer's line about iPods being full of pirated material.
Re:Time to start... (Score:5, Insightful)
...pirating id's stuff.
That's how Id got big, remember? Doom was pirated a lot, and that made it a big hit.
Re:Time to start... (Score:4, Informative)
...pirating id's stuff.
That's how Id got big, remember? Doom was pirated a lot, and that made it a big hit.
To some extent, sure. However, Doom had a demo, and as I recall, that's what made it popular. Quake had the first quarter of the game as a demo, and I know a lot of people who routinely copied things from friends who each bought themselves copies of Quake.