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Game-Related Education On the Rise At Colleges
Posted by
Soulskill
on Sun Oct 26, 2008 07:22 PM
from the best-kind-of-homework dept.
from the best-kind-of-homework dept.
The LA Times has a story about the increased interest in learning how to make video games amongst college students, and the subsequent rise in game-related education as the schools respond to that demand. Some programs are gaining legitimacy, while others do perhaps more harm than good. Quoting:
"The surge in interest has led schools to add games to their menu — but not always to the benefit of its students. Recruiters say they often see 'mills' that run around-the-clock sessions to quickly churn out as many students as possible. Other programs teach specific skills but not how games are pulled together. 'It's a very hot academic growth area,' said Colleen McCreary, who runs EA's university relations program. 'I'm very worried about the number of community colleges and for-profit institutions, as well as four-year programs, that are using game design as a lure for students who are not going to be prepared for the real entry-level positions that the game industry wants.'"
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Seems useful... (Score:5, Funny)
The economy is in total meltdown, and the best our academic institutions have to offer is more video games. When are they going to follow the leads of Harvard and Yale and give us the fine leaders like George W Bush, John Kerry, Ben Bernanke, Barrack Obama, and the head of Lehman Brothers. Running the country into the ground, now that's a REAL degree!
Re: (Score:2, Insightful)
I think it's the carbon economy and the institutions that support it, academic included, that are in serious crisis. The Sierra Club ranks colleges by their greenness, and, curiously, the Ivies aren't in the top ranks. Places like Middlebury and Oberlin are. These are small colleges that focus on the teaching of undergraduates. Maybe that's part of why they seem to be leading green thinking.
I am hopeful for a new generation of leaders that are more aware of humanity's impact on the planet. Of course, i
Re:Seems useful... (Score:5, Funny)
Parent
Ummm... (Score:4, Insightful)
Re: (Score:2, Insightful)
I agree, I am a university student studying science, chem and biology 2 majors. I took the time to Do 100 level comp science, and got through a horrid year of C# initiative..
Where I am going is that, at the same time I was doing pograming, there were students in my Biology and Environmental classes pulling off modules for Word/Excel and PPT that were giving the same total number of credits as I was getting for busting my arse off learning how to write object-orientated programs.
I have no problem with learni
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I have no problem with learning how to use Excel/Word/PowerPoint to its fullest, but to achieve university points for demonstrating how to point and click is absurd.
I hate to break it to you, but Excel/Word/PowerPoint are exceedingly useful skills in a lot of workplaces and for a lot of careers. Much more so than programming for a lot of those careers.
(And I say this as a programmer with a computer science degree.)
I mean, if you want take the angle that universities should be teaching 'higher learning' and
Re:Ummm... (Score:5, Insightful)
I hate to break it to you, but universities are not supposed to be places for vocational learning. Anyone with the intellectual capacity to be enrolled at a 4 year institution should be able to pick up the skills necessary to operate the aforementioned software on their own.
I don't have a problem with a class period or two being devoted to the basic operation of the software, but it should never be the basis for actual school credit in an accredited curriculum.
Parent
Re:Ummm... (Score:5, Insightful)
sadly, that's what many American universities have degraded into--trade schools.
i have a friend attending UCSB who's trying to get into web design/development. but most all of the classes he's taken are more akin software training courses taught at junior colleges or technical colleges like Devry, ITT Tech, etc. skills like basic flash animation, HTML coding, and JavaScript are things that a web developer needs to teach himself. a University education should be focused on more academic knowledge that broaden a student's horizons, not giving vocational training that can be gleaned from a book or the web in just a few weeks.
personally, i majored in CS in college and i never even took a single class on web design/development, but i've already established a career for myself having built up a portfolio doing freelance work while in college and also as an in-house developer/designer. the vocational skills that i've developed cannot, and should not, be taught in a university classroom. they're skills you pick up and teach yourself either working on personal projects or doing an internship.
university courses need to teach students more abstract concepts that are more difficult to teach oneself or that students are more likely to miss in their self-study because they don't appear to have any obvious practical applications--things like programming theory & conceptual knowledge. my friend doesn't have any of that, and worse yet, he has picked up bad programming/design habits from his classes like using frames, mixing content and presentation, and sloppy/unorganized code.
but i guess we live in a capitalist society and education has become just another commercialized commodity. people treat colleges merely as a hoop to jump through in order to land a high paying job. they don't actually care about learning or intellectual pursuit. a well-rounded college education just isn't in as much demand, therefore the free market has driven our universities to become more like technical colleges and focus more on vocational training.
but i guess that's why a bachelor's degree is no longer enough for selective employers. now you need a graduate degree to truly be competitive. i don't know if that's a good thing or a bad thing.
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
Anybody who wants to work with scientific data should take a real data-crunching package like R or Matlab, and avoid Excel like the plague.
Scientific or other. Unfortunately Excel is a nasty virus that propagates not only to every office computer in the universe, but also to pretty much every mind, obliterating every other useful skill that used to be present there...
Need to store your addressbook ? Excel
Need to run diffs on files ? Excel
Need a quick script ? Excel
Need to analyse a huge dataset ? Excel
Need to build a database ? Excel
Need to build a quick billing app ? Excel
Just a few of the numerous examples I've come across. And people wonde
Re:Ummm... (Score:5, Interesting)
Schools like this aren't going to land you a good job. My brother went to Full Sail for their game development degree. Even though its only 22 months he received an accredited bachelors degree. His final project was a 5 month grind where he and 4 others made a game from scratch. They made a networked real time strategy game with a 3D engine, 3D sound using Fmod, 4 player networking and multiple game play modes. All totally from scratch, no tools or anything. In fact they had to write their own tools to handle a few tasks. They must document everything and manage the game as if they were a company by having an asset list to keep them focused. They are required to come up with a studio name and that class gets a publisher name as well. Another good thing is since Full Sail is a media school, graphic arts students make the textures and models while sound students do the sound effects for the teams. They are also now offering a masters degree as well.
The result? When he attended his international game developers association meetings he was the most experienced person there. He was able to speak and present himself well thanks to his public speaking classes. His C++ knowledge along with C#, assembler and java got him allot of attention. He can also land a regular programming job if he wanted.
I must say even I am impressed by his knowledge. My favorite project was for his machine architecture class where he had to write a game boy demo from scratch (that is where his assembler knowledge comes from). So if anyone is interested in a game development school look into Full Sail. But be warned over 50% drop out before the first year, and about 25% make it to graduation. It is a very intense degree. Each class is from 9-5pm sometimes with labs 5-1am! You are definitely prepared for a grueling job as a programmer after that school.
Here was his classes publisher, Degenerate Triangles. He was part of the Code or Die team. http://degeneratetriangles.com/ [degeneratetriangles.com]
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
While I've never seen such a rave review for a 21 month college program, I have seen quite a few complaints about the $40,000 price tag attached to it.
Likes Games != Automatic CS degree (Score:5, Insightful)
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Somebody who'd want to program for a real game company would be better off getting a math degree with emphasis on programming rather than a CompSci degree with emphasis in software engineering.
Re:Likes Games != Automatic CS degree (Score:5, Informative)
Somebody who'd want to program for a real game company would be better off getting a math degree with emphasis on programming rather than a CompSci degree with emphasis in software engineering.
On what basis do you offer this advice? Game development is a very practical endeavor, with a large number of very specialized requirements:
* C/C++ fluency is almost universally required. Other languages such as C#/Lua/Python
* Understanding of efficient coding practices and optimization
And, of course, you can then split off into one of many specialized areas:
* 3D graphics programming
* Audio programming
* AI and pathfinding
* Animation systems
* Cinematics/Machinima systems
* Physics programming
* Internal tools development
* Gameplay programming
* Platform-specific specialists
* Server/network programming
A math degree is useful for some of these jobs, but not all. Most programming job listings ask for a CS degree or equivalent in industry experience. You could probably get in with a math degree, and it might help you find a specialized programming job such as a physics developer (extremely math-intensive), but I just don't see it being too practical in a general sense.
Honestly, I can think of very few times I've had to call on any of my higher math skills as a game programmer (I specialize in audio, cinematic, and AI programming). Most of the time, basic linear algebra suffices quite nicely.
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
it's probably more helpful to just actually do some game development.
if you really want to program games for a living, then you should be doing it in your free time. someone who enjoys coding doesn't need to be working at a software development firm to sit down and write some code. if it's really what you want to do then you should enjoy doing it whether you're being paid to do it or not.
if you go through college without ever writing a single game on your own or collaborating with a friend, then you're prob
Re: (Score:2)
That would be worth pointing out if it was just schools saying "You like playing games? Major in this!" TFA does not make it sound like that is going on many places. Furthermore, it doesn't sound like the emphasis is entirely on programming, citing games as a combination of many fields. Mentions something about pairing a CS major up with a drama major. (I would be worried about creating a black hole of pure ego and pretentiousness if I were setting up that team...)
Not that that is a good approach eithe
Improve your brain by playing a game (Score:5, Interesting)
Speaking of game related education, a 2008 study in the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences found that a particular memory task, called Dual N-Back, may actually improve working memory (short term memory) and fluid intelligence (gF). This is an important finding because fluid intelligence was previously thought to be unchangeable. The game involves remembering a sequence of spoken letters and a sequence of positions of a square at the same time.
Read the original experimental study here [iapsych.com].
There's a free open source version of the Dual N-Back task called Brain Workshop [sourceforge.net]. Start practicing!
Stay away.... (Score:3, Informative)
Stay far away from the Video Game industry if you value your 'personal' time. Of the few people I know working for BioWare and Ubisoft... that job will become your life.
I think it all boils down to what one boss said to one of the guys I know: "I've got 35 resumes sitting on my desk of people just as qualified as you who are willing to do your job. So no you can't have time off."
Re:Stay away.... (Score:4, Interesting)
It's not all like that. I've been a programmer in the video game industry for 11+ years now. The simple fact of the matter is this: if you've got a proven track record as a developer, you'll command a good salary and be in very high demand. It's true that you may not make as much as those with equivalent skills outside the game development industry, but hey, you're making games for a living, which is a pretty cool way to spend your day.
Sure, some companies will think nothing of exploiting you as much as they can. This isn't exactly unique to the game development industry. If you find yourself in such a situation, try to at least finish up your current project (important for your resume), but get the hell out of that company. Once you actually get a few years under your belt and a few shipped titles, you become a highly sought-after commodity. Smart employers recognize this, and work to keep you happy and productive.
You don't hear about it as much, but there *are* companies that treat their employees well. I'm very happy with my current employer, as they understand that a healthy work-life balance is important to keeping employees happy over the long haul. I work 40-hour weeks, get five weeks of paid vacation, good health benefits, a fun and exciting working environment, and a good salary.
Honestly, I can't imagine doing anything else.
Parent
Re: (Score:2)
It's not all like that. I've been a programmer in the video game industry for 11+ years now. The simple fact of the matter is this: if you've got a proven track record as a developer, you'll command a good salary and be in very high demand.
If the people I know in the industry are any indication, you're both right.
A developer with several solid shipped titles on his resume and good references absolutely can make a high salary and be in very high demand.
However, that's not the experience of an entry level dev
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I would say stay away from games if you retain some type of romantic notion and WAFFY feelings from your childhood/teenage years playing them. Because it's not like that.
OTOH, it can be rewarding but it's work. Although personally, if you're really smart, there could be more valuable work you could be doing and could feel unfulfilled not doing it...
(Although games may lead into simulations which are important).
School don't do a good job of keeping up... (Score:2)
... if there is one thing I have noticed is that because of the internet, and the industry as aw hole. Most schools and universities simply cannot keep up, and many schools are outright bad, even the "major leagues". I think it's time to consolidate the best talent for subjects that can be taught online and have community edited courses + wiki's, etc. It would go along way to being able to improve courses in real time.
There's been tonnes of times I've wanted to leave comments on some professors problems,
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Well, sorry to burst your bubble, but a four-year degree today is, in a lot of ways, the high school diploma of forty years ago. A bachelor's in CS had better come out with the ability to immediately practice his trade or he won't get a job. And my university, among others, is absolutely woeful at actually preparing students for such. I came in knowing more than all but a few students in my class will leave knowing.
Game-related programs can be good (Score:5, Insightful)
A good game-related course may cover things like:
* C & C++ .. and more.
* DirectX & OpenGL, Pixel shader programming
* Physics, Matrix transformations, quaternions
* Collision detection for various types of primitives and response
* Audio programming
* Game level design, storyboarding
* 3D object design and animation
* Performance optimization techniques including spatial partitioning, level of detail objects, fast motion blur, fast shadow mapping, and more
* World auto-generation, map editors and scripting
* Using game engine SDKs
* Writing for portability
* Developing for constrained systems (consoles) incl. fixed point maths
"Game-related" courses can be very involved and just as valid as any other CS degree teaching many of the same concepts and APIs. It's a shame that some people hear the word "game" and become dismissive.
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
I have learned more about software development in this course then most courses in my curriculum. These topics all lend themselves to team projects, problem solving, and maths... all of which are relevant to a CSE undergrad. I don't see how this course isn't useful for someone considering game development, especially when its an industry that is explodi
that's the goal (Score:3, Interesting)
The ideal is that games are partly used as a lure to trick more 18-year-olds into finding a degree in computer science interesting---rather than a class on asm programming on the SPARC or something, you teach them similar concepts with a class that makes them program asm on the Gameboy Advance or Atari 2600, making the low-level architecture/asm class seem more interesting. Of course, programs vary in how exactly they integrate games into the curriculum.
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I'd fight that.
Not because i have something against game degrees, it's just i have something seriously against the utter shitty programming i see turned out by a lot of people who claim they are "CS" majors.
Sorry, but when i think of CS, i think of someone who has a CLUE about why something would be inefficient, why efficiency matters, or even the basic structure of what they're working with.
Unfortunately it seems i'm in the minority, and a lot of professors(not most, but not a minority, also i use the term
Re: (Score:2)
What about Geometry?
Re: (Score:2, Insightful)
A friend of mine did a degree course like that at Lincoln Uni over here in the UK...
Unfortunately such a course has one major downside:
It's TOO generalist. My friend new exactly what it is he wants to do - (game/level design) - and he only spent two months or so on each subject out of two years, which simply wasn't enough.
After talking to him for a while, it became obvious that the course he took would actually have been better if split into two - one for the game system(s) and one for the content - and th
Experiencing it already (Score:2, Informative)
I've had to fire three programmers already. None were looking for real work they wanted to be paid to play. They talked well and seemed to have the skills but all had poor attitudes and didn't display even rudimentary professional behavior. I wasted a lot of time and money trying to give each a chance to perform but in the end I fired all of them. Our company has had to rethink doing any game related work due to the generally poor quality of applicants. It's very hard to find decent programmers no matter w
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
They talked well and seemed to have the skills but all had poor attitudes and didn't display even rudimentary professional behavior.
Yeah, I'm sure a game written by you guys would be a blast. It's impossible to write a fun game in an environment devoid of it. You have to know what fun is first before you can manufacture it.
And I've got more bad news for you, AC. Programmers are all oddballs. And the more talented the programmer tends to be, the more of an oddball they'll tend to be.
If you're look
Re:Experiencing it already (Score:5, Insightful)
Parent
Games are like guitars... (Score:3, Insightful)
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Except that kids who have a life time dream of being a games programmer typically have more productive alternatives to fall back on than kids who wanna be rock stars.
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
Except that kids who have a life time dream of being a games programmer typically have more productive alternatives to fall back on than kids who wanna be rock stars.
Yet the wannabe rock star still gets more pussy.
:-)
There is no justice
Universities prioritise money over educating.. (Score:2)
News at 11.
Game of life (Score:2)
TV Scams (Score:5, Interesting)
The first thing I thought of in regards to the EA quote was those ITT Tech and other TV commercials who advertise making games after 2 years. That's bullshit, in my humble opinion. I've been programming as a hobby for a while and am in the middle of a 4 year university CS program and, at the moment, would have absolutely nothing worthwhile to add to a game programming team. Or modeling team. Or anything. I could be a beta tester, that's about it. And I have a feeling those aren't in demand. Now granted, I probably have less experience than a person leaving a 2 year game design program because that's so targeted and CS is so general. But I at least have a feeling for how much you can learn in a year.
Point is, games these days are incredibly complex. We're talking multi million dollar budgets, with blockbuster titles reaching the hundred millions. 100+ person programming teams. Kids coming out of a quickie game design degree are going to be poorly prepared, if at all, for this complexity. And it's not fair, because designing games is a process that strengthens programming and general logic abilities.
At least, that's my very opinionated two cents.
Re: (Score:3, Funny)
...those ITT Tech and other TV commercials who advertise making games after 2 years. That's bullshit...
So true, I know a buddy who attended one of these institutions and couldn't even write a simple "Sprite" Class.
Upon inquiring further, when asked what a Sprite was with respect to game programming, he replied "Uh..it's something that moves!"
Needless to say, you wont be seeing his name in any game credits anytime soon.
Re: (Score:3, Funny)
Re: (Score:2)
The way you become a programmer is by programming.
Do it for fun, have a problem to solve, etcetera.
You don't learn it in the classroom. Classroom theory is nice, but that experience is akin to pouring water into a leaky glass.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
I went to a 4 year game/film college. The people who came into the program without any prior self education almost universally failed. I would say of my class of 80 about 6-7 at most actually were employable. Of those 7 or so I can only think of 2 who came in without any previous 3D experience and one of them had extensive traditional art training before hand so really only one I can think of who had no experience.
It's a myth that you can learn this stuff in 4 years. The only people who I have seen suc
Wasteoftime tag is not appropriate (Score:5, Insightful)
My first real programming was done for gaming purposes. I wrote a zork-like thing in Apple Pascal on an Apple IIe in high school (yes I know, get off my lawn). And tried to write Cosmic Encounter for the C64. Running out of room is what moved me to buy an Amiga and my first real C compiler, Aztec C. And my first hard drive once I got sick of programming off of floppies. Which I hardware hacked onto the 86 pin expansion port to make it a full 100 pin ZorroII port.
Anything that gets your butt in the chair and writing code is good. I had no idea what I was getting into when I stared down this path, but it was gaming that was the beginning. And now it's put a roof over my head.
YMMV of course, but for me it's hardly been a waste of time.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
I think the tag is echoing the sentiment in the summery that a lot of these courses are a waste of time (and money), in that you don't really learn the needed skills in them.
It's all going according to plan (Score:2)
Someday, the more advanced ones will be room-sized an
Maybe a dream (Score:3, Informative)
But this is different. In programming, if you can't work on games, you can work on websites or accounting systems, or make pie charts. Not necessarily sexy but they'll pay the bills. A lot more than being a high school coach. The common thread whatever your endeavour is hard work. So sit down and code. If you're lucky, Blizzard'll come calling.
Re: (Score:2)
The fine article also mentions specifically "game related courses" not generic programming classes. The comments from the industry about "entry level positions" makes me think that these are NOT game programming classes at all, since game developer is not an entry level position except if you own the company yourself...
In other news... (Score:3, Interesting)
DigiPen -- www.digipen.edu (Score:5, Interesting)
Any prospective student should know that it is very difficult to break into the gaming industry. Further, they need to ask themselves why they are attending generic college XYZ for video games. Specifically, what does this college offer and what are their job placement statistics? DigiPen regularly has job placement percentages in the high 90s within 6 months of graduation. Might I add that many of our professors have worked in the industry extensively? Who better to lecture on game networking, audio, physics, etc. than someone who has developed on triple A titles on all of the major consoles? I could spend ample time explaining how the first 2 years at DigiPen covers more than most Master's programs elsewhere in the country, but I digress.
The sad fact of the matter is that most collegiate programs do not have the expertise on the bench to be able to ACTUALLY help students get ready for the real world of video game programming. DigiPen graduates are more-often-than-not able to hit the ground running on most any platform or console.
To compound matters worse, real-time interactive simulations (aka video games or other simulators) are some of the most advanced computing that a developer can strive to code. Everything from memory management to networking has to be properly written for games. You are, in a sense, writing an entire OS on top of the underlying console dashboards. Quite a daunting task.
And to add just a bit more, what is it with Computer Science students who believe they can leave a typical college and hit the ground running with that perfect development job? I've spent a decade of internships, part-time jobs, multiple college degrees, etc. to get to the point where I can competently compete for a development job 'fresh out of college'. And yes, that means I was interning back in high school in development-type jobs.
Real video game colleges spend more time on advanced math (the stuff beyond calculus) and physics than discussing the best attack combo for the latest fighting game. Don't get me wrong, we play video games, but that is typically after an 80-120 hour work week writing code until we actually dream out our coding assignments to only wake up at 4 am to rewrite a memory manager, network engine, sound engine, shader, 3d model file format, etc.
Ugh... (Score:3, Insightful)