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How Do Games Grow Up?
Posted by
Soulskill
on Thu Nov 06, 2008 04:59 AM
from the not-with-wheaties dept.
from the not-with-wheaties dept.
Gamasutra is running a piece by game designer Brice Morrison questioning the lack of games for grown-ups — or, more accurately, the lack of an intellectual progression in games like that which exists for books, movies, and other creative works.
"While my interests in other media grew substantially more adult — from Nickelodeon to CNN, from Dr. Seuss to George Orwell — games did not seem to have a more intelligent counterpart for me to move on to. As I entered college, I became less interested in mindless entertainment and more interested in encountering new ideas. I didn't want to kill time; I wanted to take advantage of it. I wanted to challenge myself with profound concepts, to learn of new paradigms, processes, and possibilities. ... So what exactly are the barriers of entry for great thinkers (or groups of thinkers) to leave their mark on games? What must happen for games — or interactive entertainment, if you will, to mature as a medium?"
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My advice - don't look for satisfaction in games. (Score:3, Insightful)
I didn't want to kill time; I wanted to take advantage of it. I wanted to challenge myself with profound concepts, to learn of new paradigms, processes, and possibilities.
That's your problem right there. Games only kill time. The skills you acquire as you progress in a game, generally speaking, can only be used in progressing within the game's framework.
However, learning a slightly more challenging real-life task gives you more skills with long-term usefulness; My youngest daughter is learning piano, and we view each new challenging piece she has to learn as a 'boss level' - no matter how impossible it seems initially, we know from previous examples that eventually she'll conquer it and ultimately will be able to play it on demand without thinking.
So my advice is - don't look for more 'grown up' games - challenge yourself with something much more rewarding and useful in the long term.
Re:My advice - don't look for satisfaction in game (Score:5, Funny)
Yeah but real life has a completely messed up difficultly curve.
The boss level of 'getting up in the morning' comes first, and then it's much easier after that.
Parent
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I know what you mean. It looks impossible to defeat the boss in this area.
Re:My advice - don't look for satisfaction in game (Score:5, Funny)
Are you married? There's your BOSS level. Then the kids... little mini bosses, all the damn time! :)
You can prevent those from spawning, but it takes a lot of fun out of the game.
Leaving for work... those are the easy levels.
Yeah, but the traffic jam level is a drag. I wish they'd replace it with some sort of mini-game.
Parent
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It really depends on the game. Action games do improve hand-eye coordination and reflexes. Strategy games improve planning and leadership abilities. RPGs are basically like long books and carry their own rewards in the form of their stories (unless you hate books also).
Playing piano is great and all for novelty, but it's not really a useful skill. It won't be needed often, if ever and it's not something that is noticeable unless you are one of the best. I don't mean to put down your daughter, but I doubt sh
Re:My advice - don't look for satisfaction in game (Score:4, Interesting)
Playing piano is great and all for novelty, but it's not really a useful skill. It won't be needed often, if ever and it's not something that is noticeable unless you are one of the best.
I take it you've never spent time in a pub band, or even writing songs with your mates in a garage band. Being able to play a musical instrument is very rewarding even without 'being noticed'.
I don't mean to put down your daughter, but I doubt she will ever reach that "level".
I'm pretty sure she'll never be a concert pianist, either, but claiming that the ability to play a musical instrument is something that will not be used often or ever just sounds ridiculous. Or maybe I've just been trolled...
Parent
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I take it you've never spent time in a pub band, or even writing songs with your mates in a garage band. Being able to play a musical instrument is very rewarding even without 'being noticed'.
Probably not, this is news for nerds after all, not news for musicians ;D
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Re:My advice - don't look for satisfaction in game (Score:5, Interesting)
Parent
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Re:My advice - don't look for satisfaction in game (Score:3, Insightful)
The Victorians mailed in a letter. They want their parlor room piano back.
If I understand you properly, you are saying that the skill of "Piano" carries more value long term than any particular game which now has a short lifespan.
Thing is, "Piano" playing itself is already starting to be passed by, except for the modern ofshoot of playing Keyboard in a small band. Then the grownup game is arguing with band members with "creative differences".
You do realize the other hobbies are the same? (Score:5, Insightful)
I hope you do realize that the same applies to most of the RL skills waved around as "yeah, but look what _my_ hobby teaches me" proof that someone's pet hobby is better than gaming.
E.g., yes, your daughter's piano skills. (God knows how many kids have been tortured with _that_.) Unless her goal in life is an underpaid job in an orchestra that skill is useful for exactly one thing: more playing the piano. Usefulness for any other RL activity: zero.
And yes, you could say that she's going to be a great pianist and earn teh big bucks by being some concert's super-star. Guess what? His chances are about as good to make money as a gaming superstar. Or rather, your daughter's chances are just as bad. Not everyone gets to be Fatal1ty and not everyone gets to be a superstar musician. There are 1000 times more people wanting such a job, than people who actually get one.
But at any rate, the same chances apply to making living out of gaming. He can theoretically end up making a living out of being a top gamer, same as your daughter can theoretically end up a legendary pianist. Your daughter can end up a composer instead, and he can end up a game programmer with that experience. Your daughter can end up scraping by on a minimum wage playing in some orchestra or some unknown band in a bar, he can end up a minimum-wage game tester.
More likely, for most children who went through that, the only result is, ta-da, that they killed some time with it.
So remind me, exactly what do you base that snottiness on, when you look down upon his hobby? No, seriously.
But let's move on, let's see more poster children for "look at what a cool RL hobby I have" idiocies that get waved around all the time:
- mountaineering, camping, and other excuses to go out in the wild. Exactly what skills do people learn there, and when will they apply them IRL? Because it seems to me that the only times when you'll apply any of them, is... next time you go do that hobby. That's it. E.g., exactly when will you have to find north by the moss on the trees... in a city? If you want the actual useful version of that, get a GPS navigation system. No, let's make no bullshit pretenses, it's just a way to kill time.
- fishing. The chances you'll ever feed and clothe your family with a fishing pole, are practically nil. You'll never catch enough fish to sell them and, say, pay for your kid's clothes and education with it, because fish are freaking cheap. You'll never get a job to sit near a lake with a fishing pole, either. The way it's done nowadays is with big boats and nets, not with a fishing rod. And even, let's say, in a post-apocalyptic Fallout-type scenario, where are you going to fish? There just aren't enough rivers around to support even the most minimum population that way. Most have been depleted already, and you may notice that the fishing hobbyists go to some fish farm actually, where fish are artifficially fed and raised for that. So again, chance to ever get any other use out of that skill: zero. It's just a way to kill some time, and any skill you get there will only ever be used when you next go fishing.
- messing with one's car. I hate to break it to some people, but _very_ few even save any money there. Yes, everyone has some anecdote of that time they fixed the car themselves and saved a fortune. But almost everyone forgets those other times when they just made it worse and had to pay more to get it fixed, or the money spent on all those extra bits and pieces and tools that never actually got used enough to pay for themselves. And usually what they save is not worth the time spent there. There are people who practically live in the garage. Even if you saved $100 once (and you won't save more, unless you also smelt and forge your components too), if you spent 20 hours in
Parent
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More likely, for most children who went through that, the only result is, ta-da, that they killed some time with it.
So remind me, exactly what do you base that snottiness on, when you look down upon his hobby? No, seriously.
Seriously ? Having an introduction the beautiful, engaging world of playing and creating music.
Besides, it sounds to me like the original author is the one who's 'looking down upon his hobby', not me.
Re:You do realize the other hobbies are the same? (Score:5, Interesting)
And I was introduced via gaming to:
- the wonderful world of logic
- the worderful world of algorithmic thinking, and splitting a problem into (semi-)self-contained, manageable parts
- the wonderful world of painting (a texture) or storytelling and creative writing (e.g., a new quest arc)
- the wonderful world of taking decisions in split seconds, and of accepting that you don't always have the data or time for the perfect choice
And a few others.
Games aren't just about playing and achieving a high score, but also about trying to make your own (back when you could realistically make a ZX-81 game in a day or two) or modding (the more sane alternative nowadays.) I was programming assembly within a year of being exposed to my parents' ZX-81, for example. It's skills I still apply at work every day.
Which is also why I'll call it "looking down upon it", if your best answer is along the lines "gaming is only for killing time, and you should do some RL stuff instead." You don't have to give up gaming to start using your head and getting RL skills. You might, however start taking them a part a bit too, not just playing them. And if you're going to say it's still something done instead of gaming, well, not quite, it's more like complimentary. Unless you know what the game does and/or don't like it enough in the first place, you won't start modding it.
But even that might not be truly needed. There are games where you apply logic within the game, and I even remember two where they had a programming language integrated right into the game. And I don't mean for modding, but you could actually program the character's cybernetic implant to do something else and help you in some way while you run and gun.
Parent
Re:You do realize the other hobbies are the same? (Score:5, Insightful)
I play, and recently played at a close friends wedding. Not only did I get to give a unique, personal and priceless present whilst receive the adoration of hundreds of guests. I later carried an impromptu post-reception party with a smaller number of the guests at the hotel for several hours after the reception finished.
I didn't make any money, but I made a lot of people happy. If you think that's useless in real life then accountancy is the profession for you.
Parent
Actually... (Score:3, Insightful)
1. When I take my holy-spec raiding in WoW, I make 24 people very happy too. Used to be 39 >;)
2. Actually, the point was that we should stop measuring it all by utility, money, investment, etc. We do things because they're _fun_. And that goes for both my gaming and your playing an instrument.
You probably didn't put years into it, just so one day you can make those people happy at that wedding. You did it because you _liked_ doing it, right? The utility came incidentally, but what kept you doing it was t
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Your daughter can end up scraping by on a minimum wage playing in some orchestra or some unknown band in a bar, he can end up a minimum-wage game tester.
Apparently the fringe benefit of becoming a Minimum wage game tester is a free sex change. :]
(I joke.. I myself am a fairly horrible spelling/grammar person)
In general, I can agree with your abstract level of thought.. however I still disagree with the principles.
I think the problem may arise that, at least to me, a significant majority of the games out there teach no true auxiliary skills.
Yes; shooters/reaction games can in fact heighten your reaction time. Strategy games can improve critical thinking, etc
Re:You do realize the other hobbies are the same? (Score:4, Insightful)
Unless her goal in life is an underpaid job in an orchestra that skill is useful for exactly one thing: more playing the piano. Usefulness for any other RL activity: zero.
You also learn music theory and music appreciation. Your world grows a little. Piano lessons as a kid might translate into guitar playing as a teen or becoming a professional musician. Honestly, I hate the attitude of "if it isnt making money then its stupid to do." Why go to college when you can just go to trade school? There's an argument that its worth educating people even if it doesnt translate into dollars.
I'm just saying that essentially games are the _same
Compared to learning a musical instrument or car repair? No way. Not even close.
Lastly, I do some car repair. Ive never "had to take it in because it was worse." Being educated about cars means lots of savings. A better maintained car is a longer running car. Inflated tires is better mpg. Being able to talk to a mechanic with knowledge on your side is power. Replacing worn parts beats paying for the tow and downtime. Heck, knowing whats wrong with a car means I can do the labor most of the time and I can shop around for the best price on parts, even if I cant install it.
Parent
I'm not an auto hobbyist, but... (Score:3, Interesting)
I agree with your point. Not only that, but to learning how to fix cars can actually foster some understanding, however limited, of basic to intermediate level mechanics and electronics, depending on the vehicle. Sure, you probably won't understand engine harmonics and such, but that's what engineering classes are for.
Re:My advice - don't look for satisfaction in game (Score:3, Insightful)
Or, as Joshua put it... (Score:2, Funny)
Re: Chess! (Score:5, Interesting)
Really now.
Anand just won the final step of the total unification of the world chess championship, and Slashdot couldn't be bothered to report it. I USED to think chess was at least slightly Stuff That Mattered.
Parent
but..but.. (Score:3, Interesting)
Sometimes gamers don't *want* their games to become more complex as they mature.
Take for example the Caesar 3/Zeus/Cleopatra games of Impression Studio's. They decided it was time to go more mature and produced Children of the Nile', which was more complex in many ways, and altered the gameplay to make the game 'more challenging'. However the result was a game which differed so much from the core attraction of the previous titles that it bombed, going onto the bargain shelves really quickly. So then they took a step back and released Caesar 4. A bit too high on the system spec requirements, but nice looking, a decent evolution of their core game, and really good fun. In many respects its similar to games they were producing five years previously, and this was a good thing.
And what about that other great failure of progression when they decided Worms need to be 3D? Talk about New Coke...
I've been playing games for the last (counts on wrinkles and old person skin blemishes..) 24 years, so I'm well aware of the evolution of the industry. Some evolutions have been great, better AI, improvements in graphics, more depth in games, stuff like that, but others, like 'customer as potential criminal suspect', not so much.
New types of game have appeared which I really enjoy, though I have to say, very few groundbreaking games, which is surprising. Instead I've also noticed a tendency for games companies to pound a franchise to death with endless tiny iterations until it gets to the point that the only new thing in some new releases are new skins, a few extra effects and some more items.
A good game should evolve, true, but each iteration should be an obvious advance, enhancing the core elements that make that game fun to begin with. What it shouldn't do is catch 'New Coke' disease, or pretend to be a new version worth a whole new purchase when the content changes are less than some decent games companies (Id, Valve, Egosoft to name a few) release as free content updates.
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"Sometimes gamers don't *want* their games to become more complex as they mature."
Well, and sometimes people don't want their tv to mature either.
I still watch Nickelodeon more than CNN.
Who lives in a pineapple under the sea?
Grown up games (Score:5, Insightful)
- Programming
- 3D modelling
- Spreadsheets
- Online banking
- and so on...
Re: Banking (Score:3, Funny)
Adult vs not-for-kids (Score:5, Interesting)
Usually the "adult" label is used not for actual weighty content geared for an adult audience with mature tastes, but just a repository for those things that traditionally children shouldn't be exposed to. Sorry, that doesn't make it adult-oriented, that just makes it non-kid-friendly, and typically can be best described as adolescent (boobs, explosions, gore, swearing, "gritty", "edgy", etc) content that would make Beavis and Butthead proud.
In my case, I've left all the AAA titles and tended towards puzzle games, where at least I'm challenged to expand my thought processes and puzzle solving abilities. There are some plot-heavy RPGs and FPSes nowadays with some challenging concepts or unexpected twists, but they still tend to be buried in adolescence to make them marketable, ignoring the amount of >30yo and female gamers who are no longer enticed by such or are even turned off by it.
I do commend Nintendo for putting a lot of focus on basic fun, party, family-enjoyable games which have been explosively popular without the adolescent slant, but they still do leave the adult-minded player wishing to be challenged at a more cerebral level.
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That's exactly one of the problems with games nowadays. I want to play an RPG being a middle age man with experience, not a youngster who cannot think or control his hormones.
I want to choose over different moral dilemmas and face the consequences. A game where I could relate to the main character and not wanting to strangle him/her because their inept social or observational skills.
I want a game for adults, not an adult's game (read: boobies).
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That kind of thing exists to a certain extend, for example in The Witcher (the non-humans are persecuted by the humans and have opted for guerilla warfare, while guarding crates of weapons, you are faced with a small group of them who pretend your boss is OK with them (but he didn't mention any expeted visit when describing the job), would you let them take a few crates or kill them?) or Fable II (OK, the second example has a too obvious good/evil dichotomy, but it's fun to play according to the moral value
He played Mario, doesn't that say it all? (Score:5, Insightful)
The claims that games don't provide a challenge, no depth. The game he uses as an example, and the only example? Mario.
This is like saying TV provides no depth, after you spend all time studying the shopping channel.
There are other games. Games that have tried to go beyond a simple platformer. Wether they succeed is up for question but when I see someone talk about the lack of depth of games and his example if a simple platform console game I get visions of a large lumbering stone creature that lives under bridges.
So his mother was never intrested in playing Mario. So what? My mother was never intrested in reading the adventures of "Spot" either.
Somebody give this guy a PC and some decent games. Hell, even consoles have the occasional title that pushes the envelope a bit (so, I am PC snob, sue me) but if he never played more the mario then the problem is not the game industry but his own lousy taste.
Complaing that Mario not anything more then a mindless (if fun) time waster is like saying Popcorn doesn't have enough nutritional benefits, however true it is, it is retarded observation. Mario and Popcorn are light fluf, devoid of meaning or value except. That is their goal.
But we get the post true intentions. Apparently the future of gaming is weight loss gaming. WHEE! Because a program that tracks your weight becomes a game just because it is on a console? If this is the example of growing up, of challenging your mind, taking you new places, then I take Mario any time (and I hate Mario since I suck at platforms ergo platforms are stupid).
Perhaps this developer needs to grow up and realize that not everything has to be liked by everyone. I had a grandfather who never ever had a telephone. Never needed it, never wanted it. Does that mean telephones are without value to those who use them? That the telephone companies needed to worry about this "lost" customer?
Online flash games (Score:2)
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Indeed [xkcd.com]...
Seriously speaking, though, the popularity of flash games has also much to do with the fact that they're right there, easy to access. You receive an e-mail from a friend with a link to a new one, click it and can immediately start playing.
The current video-games now have online content and easy network access, but you still have to change medias and spend time and money. That makes a lot of difference.
Games and Hollywood Movies... (Score:2, Insightful)
If you're bored (Score:2)
PhilosoFIST (Score:2)
Just the way this is worded sounds awfully pedantic and is borderline shoddy intellectuliasm. Video games are meant to be played, yes, like children playing with their toys. I'm sorry if the analogy is unbearable for some adults who look back with contempt at their childhood's leisures but the aim of games is to provi
Because its hard to preserve narrative momentum (Score:5, Interesting)
For example, I'm sure the Tactics Ogre games had a great story, but I didn't really follow it after playing the games for a few hours. They would have cutscenes that introduce some characters, plot points etc. then you would have to battle for about 20 minutes, followed by another cutscene, followed by more battle etc. The battles were fun(or else I wouldn't have played the game), but it certainly was time consuming, so when you mix in the fact that I had other responsibilities, the whole thing became very hard to follow. Eventually I just skipped through the plot and went straight into the gameplay.
IMO the best game stories are the ones that give you a connection to your character and motivation for achieving the objectives. Thats it. If you want a book, read a book.....
Re:breaking up the narritive (Score:2, Insightful)
In any game which is both attempting to tell a story and be an 'adult' (as in intellectual/emotional maturity, not 18+ content) game, the gameplay should be *part* of the narrative.
Games which have to put the narrative on pause are really just short stories laid on top of game mechanics that, as you say, would do just as well without.
Re:breaking up the narritive (Score:5, Informative)
Another nod to Deus Ex here. My favorite games provide "literary" qualities alongside good gameplay, and Deus Ex is a perfect example of that, exploring political and individual philosophy in surprisingly great depth.
Bits of Chesterton's The Man who was Thursday are scattered around the game. Moral choices are made. Free will and the nature of humanity is examined. The final decision in the game is essentially picking which of Aristotle's "good" governments you'd prefer (democratic city-states (Tong), aristocracy (Illuminati), or Philosopher-King (merge with AI)). Very deep, especially for a game that's primarily an FPS.
Parent
to paraphrase the author: (Score:5, Insightful)
You can have something which is completely utilitarian, which is not a game. These programs exist: Iraqi culture simulations, reflex training programs, etc.
You can also have something which has a sense of whimsy and fun. This is a game, and some of them have the potential to make you think or to awe you with their beauty.
I don't know what the author is bitching about. He wants games without the fun, it would seem; games which take themselves as seriously as he does. Those just aren't games.
He thinks games are a medium on the level of television. This is wrong. The computer is the medium. Games are merely a flavor of program, much as game-shows are flavor of television. Do you expect your game-shows to "progress intellectually" as you age?
Fucking games journalists. Enough pretentious, bullshit opinion pieces. Get back to your fucking jobs.
Fable II? (Score:2)
I know what you mean. There are books, music, movies, ... that range from "for three-year-olds" to conceptual challenges suitable for a mature adult (not dirty, but with a more depth and breadth) mind, but no games AFAIK.
The producers of Fable II have been touting that it allows you to explore as either a "good" or "bad" guy and shades between. I don't have a copy, but the reviews seem to bear this out. While you're still exploring someone else's idea of good/bad in how they plotted the game, even in boo
Puzzle/Adventure (Score:3, Insightful)
Certain games in the Myst/Riven series, for example, have been challenging in an intellectually stimulating way, most notably Riven and Uru.
Many strategy games, particularly turn-based strategy games, also fit the bill.
I don't think games will ever become "educational" at the adult level, because in large part pedagogical concerns are part of the world of work for adults (stuff you have to learn for work, stuff you have to learn for this project or that one, etc.) and the point of gaming is to escape the world of work... unless we begin to transition to a society in which regular user interfaces for work-style tasks are constructed with game-like interfaces and metaphors, but I dont' see that happening.
The point for an "adult" game is to keep it from being utterly mindless and/or adolescent, to provide intellectual stimulation by requiring the juxtaposition and analytical processing of facts and information, even if these are fictional and appear in the context of a game.
To that end, my vote goes to the best of the puzzle/adventure games (the good ones with "puzzles" the scale of the entire game stretchign across contexts, not the shitty ones which have tended to be truly horrible an mind-numbing) and the turn-based strategy games.
Two words: Interactive Fiction (Score:3, Insightful)
How come nobody has yet mentioned IF Archive? [ifarchive.org] The most innovative, thought provoking and literary games are not on your regular console.
Text adventures come in several flavours, many are typically puzzle-based, while others are just a sequential narrative. These have all the advantages of a novel in terms of profound concepts, possibilities and adult themes. But the active involvement that they require to keep the action going makes them a different experience compared to passive uncovering of the plot: they make you think about the storyline, step by step, and get involved in it in first person.
Also there are an annual competition that regularly provides new material, free to play. Some of these beasts provide the most original and interesting gameplays I've seen in a long while; see Galatea [wurb.com] as an example (you can play it online) [setonhill.edu].
Re:Must be windy. (Score:5, Funny)
If I wanted to pursue more 'intellectual pursuits', I would socialize
This is /. I anticipate a problem with this approach.
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Games simply containing sex and violence doesn't really sound like what he's looking for. Instead, by the sounds of it, he's looking for depth and challenge. The top games in this field IMO are:
Re:Adult Games (Score:4, Funny)
A spoonful of sugar helps the medicine go doooooown.....
Parent
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That rises the question of why you are participating in a discussion about video games. It also rises the question of "Why": What criterion would use of time need to satisfy in order to not be considered "waste" by you, and why ?
A bold claim. Can you back it with reasoning ?