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90% of Gaming Addiction Patients Not Addicted
Posted by
Soulskill
on Tue Nov 25, 2008 08:05 PM
from the don't-worry-i'm-sure-you're-in-the-other-10% dept.
from the don't-worry-i'm-sure-you're-in-the-other-10% dept.
phorm writes "BBC is carrying an article which states that 90% of visitors to Europe's 'video game addiction clinic' are not, in fact, addicted. The problem is a social one rather than a psychological issue. In other words, the patients have turned to heavy gaming because they felt they didn't fit in elsewhere, or that they fit in better 'in the game' than elsewhere in 'the real world.' This has been discussed before, with arguments ranging from gaming being a good way to socialize, the clinical definition of gaming addiction, and claims than males are wired for video-game addiction."
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[+]
Male Brains 'Wired for Videogame Obsession' 125 comments
thinkzinc notes a story indicating that, according to a new study, men have a harder time putting down a controller than women do. Researchers at Stanford did brain imaging work on a group of young test subjects while they played a simple PC game. Besides the 'obvious' conclusion that men were more 'aggressive at gaining territory on the screen', the tests also indicated that male brains showed more activity in the reward and addiction components of the brain. "The lead author, Dr. Allan Reiss, noted that most of the video games that are popular with men are territory and aggression-type games. 'These gender differences in the brain may help explain why males are more attracted to, and more likely to become hooked on video games than females,' he said. Other recent surveys indicate that about 40 percent of Americans regularly play games on a computer or console, but young males are two or three times more likely than females to feel addicted to video games, Reiss said. "
[+]
Technology: China Defines Internet Addiction 201 comments
narramissic writes "Three years after the first clinic dedicated to Internet addiction opened in Beijing, Chinese doctors have now officially defined it as an ailment. Those afflicted with this ailment spend six or more hours a day online and exhibit at least one of the following symptoms: difficulty sleeping or concentrating, yearning to be online, irritation, and mental or physical distress. Do you meet the criteria? You're in good company: About 10 percent of China's 253 million Internet users exhibit some form of addiction to the medium, and 70 percent of those people are young men, an official Xinhua News Agency report said."
[+]
Study Recommends Online Gaming, Social Networking For Kids 189 comments
Blue's News pointed out a report about a study sponsored by the MacArthur Foundation which found that online gaming and social networking are beneficial to children, teaching them basic technical skills and how to communicate in the Information Age. The study was conducted over a period of three years, with researchers interviewing hundreds of children and monitoring thousands of hours of online time. The full white paper (PDF) is also available.
"For a minority of children, the casual use of social media served as a springboard to them gaining technological expertise — labeled in the study as 'geeking out,' the researchers said. By asking friends or getting help from people met through online groups, some children learned to adjust the software code underpinning some of the video games they played, edit videos and fix computer hardware. Given that the use of social media serves as inspiration to learning, schools should abandon their hostility and support children when they want to learn some skills more sophisticated than simply designing their Facebook page, the study said."
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addiction? (Score:5, Funny)
I just stopped playing ufo: enemy unknown in dosbox, to refresh slashodot.
Re:addiction? (Score:5, Funny)
Parent
I'm addicted to Slashdot (Score:5, Funny)
...or at least that's what I'll claim if I am ever confronted by my employers about my internet usage logs at work
Re:I'm addicted to Slashdot (Score:4, Insightful)
Parent
Re:I'm addicted to Slashdot (Score:5, Funny)
Don't worry, we've logged your logging of our logs and will be discussion your logging policies in the future.
Parent
No I'm not addicted.. (Score:5, Funny)
That's not Swedish ... (Score:3, Funny)
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
Your Dutch is wrong. You're saying 'I can stop with when I want'.
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
Re: (Score:3, Funny)
Godamn slashdot can't even get UTF-8 right.
That should have been:
Je pense que vous voulez dire "arrêter", pas "arretêr".
Re: (Score:3, Funny)
Really? (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Really? (Score:5, Insightful)
Why do people still listen to the media is beyond me. Every single year they come up with something that is either A) addicting and damaging to minds B) corrupting the family/children/society or C) is somehow harmful. Be it rock and roll, cell phones, video games, comic books, etc, the media always comes up with some "studies" to back them up while two months later showing studies that prove just the opposite is true, why haven't people realized that the media has cried wolf far too many times and just tune the crap out?
Because maybe the only real addiction we have is allowing self-appointed "experts" and authorities to do our thinking for us.
Parent
Re:Really? (Score:5, Insightful)
The problem is a social one rather than a psychological issue. In other words, the patients have turned to $ADDICTION because they felt they didn't fit in elsewhere,
Fixed. A good support system is a cure for all but the most virulent psychoses, but there's a lot of money to be made on medicalizing things which are otherwise curable through a support system. Unfortunately, most addicts are given drugs and/or forced to attend $ADDICTION anonymous meetings which do more harm that good: If you were a drunk, would want to do be forced into a smoke-filled room crammed in with other folks who are just as pissed for being there as you are, probably fiending for drinks? Also, the "higher power" thing dosen't work for atheists.
Parent
Re:Really? (Score:5, Funny)
Doesn't really 'work' for the faithful either, but don't tell them! I like them confused.
Parent
Re:Really? (Score:5, Insightful)
What the hell are you talking about?
Yes, a good support system is VERY important for just about every psychological disorder or problem, but it is not a cure-all and and it not guarantee.
If you admit that our psychology derives from brain (and body) workings and that internal states and behaviors are affected by chemical changes, then it stands to reason that many psychological problems may be due to, say, certain brain circuitry being more prone to fire and/or some abnormality or otherwise undesirable neurotransmitter activity.
Too many people assume, "make them think positive thoughts, the problem will fix itself" and don't realize that the negative thoughts are a product of biological function and may be due to the chemical or neural activity.
Drugs are usually not meant to be taken alone without treatment. They're supposed to be given along with therapy, often some form of cognitive-behavioral therapy. They're also given to help improve the quality of life in the short term during therapy.
As for $ADDICTION Anonymous meetings, it is a well-known fact that recovery pretty much requires that the person actually be motivated to recover. Additionally, people being treated for addictions, usually in rehab, are usually told to avoid anything addicting; people in rehab often cannot even eat chocolate or drink coffee. AA is not the only addiction support group people can join; if a judge sentences someone to AA specifically he's an idiot.
I suspect you're thinking of Penn & Teller's Bullshit! episode here. While they do make some good arguments, I don't think their point was more to the arbitrary nature of the 12-step programs and not the actual support groups themselves. Silly things like recognizing a higher power and other stuff, that's nonsense, but providing motivations for recovery, goalposts that they can look forward to--basically rewards--does help work.
But, even past all this, sometimes drugs really are necessary. No single treatment is ever a true guarantee.
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
Sure it does, but then they have to stop calling themselves atheists. Its like saying fire doesn't work for gasoline, just because if it works there isn't any gasoline left.
Re:"the media" (Score:4, Funny)
have you found a magical fountain of information which is omnipotent, completely unbiased, and always on topic?
Slashdot. Duh!
Parent
uh? (Score:3, Interesting)
So, is this saying that they are not addicted or that they are addicted because of social issues?
Re:uh? (Score:5, Insightful)
If there's no physical or psychological dependence, they're not addicted. Turning to games for social reasons doesn't constitute addiction.
Parent
Re:uh? (Score:5, Insightful)
For starters, do you honestly believe that poor blacks are diagnosed MORE often with psychological conditions than affluent whites? Really? You really believe that someone trying to be both racist and politically correct at the same time is going to give these people an excuse for their behavior rather than simply throwing them in jail?
Second, when your getting high takes the place of working I'm pretty sure you ARE an addict, by definition. Your "hobby" is interfering with your life. This would be true of people playing video games as well, and you'll note that the article never stated that video game addiction is not real or that nobody who came into their clinic was, in their estimation, legitimately addicted to video games. Just that the majority of them weren't. (That's also not to say that they were what psychologists would consider to be mentally well; but being unwell and being addicted are not necessarily one in the same.)
More importantly, addiction is (among other things) an inability to stop your behavior. If that druggie really can stop doing drugs tomorrow, he's not addicted--same with a video game addict. The distinction the article seems to be drawing is that being unable to stop a behavior and not having another choice available due to other psychological issues aren't the same. These people fill their lives with video games because they have no other social interactions to fill them with. It's bad, maybe worse than addiction--but I would agree that it is not, in itself, actually addiction.
Parent
Re:uh? (Score:5, Insightful)
In highschool I started an informal survey after getting tired of being "addicted to computers".
"SOooo like all you do all day is like sit on computers and shit."
"What do you usually do when you get home from school?"
"I don't know I usually watch TV."
That summarized about 99% of all conversations I had. Some people usually read books. Some people usually just talked on the phone. But across the board almost every single person only had one or at most two hobbies (usually an extra-curricular sports team).
Because most people don't play video games the average game plays exponentially more games than they're used to observing and as a reslt the conclude that person is crazy addicted. In reality almost nobody does anything productive in their leisure hours and most of their time is taken up by one or two activities.
Computers are also tricky because while an external observer may simply note someone staring at a screen for 6 hours. You may have watched a TV Show. Read the news paper. Played video games. Talked to your friends. Read Slashdot. Read up on science news. Posted a blog on something you read. Worked on an art project and read a short story.
The variety of what I read and do on a computer vastly dwarfs what most people do in a day when broken down into activities instead of locations "Sat on couch reading and typing on keyboard."
I get just as addicted by good books as video games but if someone gets hooked on a book its a positive thing. "Oh my Jeny was up till 3 am she was so engrossed in Twilight." Meanwhile "That Jimmy is rotting his brain playing video games he played for 2 hours yeserday and I tried to get him to put it down and do something else but would have just played till 2AM can you believe it if I hadn't pulled the power cable."
It's a double standard perpetrated by the majority in order to shame the minority into conformity. Which usually entails sitting on the couch and watching TV till you go to bed.
Parent
Re:uh? (Score:4, Interesting)
Nice rant :) Totally agree.
Even gamers will try to shame gamers by claiming "no life!" and such. A guy in WOW Trade chat the other day was mocking the people who picked up the expansion on launch day and leveled up with their friends. I asked what he did that was so superior, and he said he went drinking with some friends at a football game.
Is sitting around in-person with friends objectively better than playing with them online? Does adding voice chat make the game more competitive with "reality"? How about avatars? Is IRC worse than a voice-chatting video game?
It's gonna take a while (possibly replacement by the next generation) to get "I'm playing WOW with my guildies" to be heard as the same level of commitment as "I'm playing poker with my buddies"
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Funny)
I'm no cocaine addict, I just like the way it smells!
intervention (Score:5, Funny)
the addiction industry is out of control in this country. somebody ought to stage an intervention.
Demise of hobby clubs (Score:5, Interesting)
One reason...It use to be that these people could join a club and usually a "geeky" one: A Chess club, a remote control aircraft club, a rocketry club, a science club, an electronics club. These kinds of organisations are disappearing and the activities are being labelled as dangerous or complete social death to get involved in, leaving a void which is being filled with idle gaming.
Re:Demise of hobby clubs (Score:5, Insightful)
Another contributing factor is, I have to say, laziness. It is much easier to stay at home, connect the Xbox to the net and play a game, then it was even 5 years ago to organize for all your mates to come around to play Perfect Dark multiplayer in the same room.
People often ignore the benefits of the social interaction, and this causes problems long term, as its hard to switch 'back' once you have isolated yourself even a little from your community.
Parent
Re:Demise of hobby clubs (Score:5, Insightful)
You seem to be claiming that the disappearance of these clubs is causing kids to be gamers. I think it's exactly the opposite: Video games are causing kids not to be interested in those clubs, so they disappear due to lack of interest.
I -love- math and science, but if you give me the choice between hanging out with a bunch of kids that are interested in math or playing video games, the choice is obvious.
In addition, I can get all the info I need from the internet. I no longer have to deal with people or libraries or anything. Kids have the exact same access that I do, so it's not surprising that the smart ones choose to get their information fast and accurate, instead of wasting time. (Yes, information on the net is still far more accurate than talking to schoolkids about it.)
Parent
Males? (Score:5, Insightful)
Yeah, I'll say. I just got done having a three hour bitch fest yesterday with a friend of mine who's BF is 'addicted' to World of Warcraft. She doesn't have a lot of experience with boys (much more with girls -- no comments on this please!), and I've had to mother her a bit on why a boy can sink twenty or more hours a week into a video game and says it "helps me relax and challenges me", but afterwords can't come up with anything better to do than "go bowling" ("where"? "Umm... I'm sure there's one around somewhere"), or "go for a walk".
I tried my best to explain how men are so much more visually oriented than girls, but it's a hard concept to really explain. It's not that they're addicted to video games, it's just that the game provides more visual action than the real world so they're more strongly attracted to it. Girls read books, boys watch movies--Boys play video games, girls play board games, that kind of thing. They really are wired different and it's damn frustrating.
I often find myself wishing for video games that helped build social skills for these kind of boys -- the ones that are awkward and introverted in public, but if you can get them to open up they're nice teddy bears. I don't think they'd want to play it though, unless it involved blowing up or shooting something. :( Like The Sims -- awesome game, but the only people I know who play it are other girls! Am I hoping for too much here? Is there some way to use some visual medium to help boys crawl out of their shell?
Re:Males? (Score:5, Insightful)
Yeah, I'll say. I just got done having a three hour bitch fest yesterday with a friend of mine who's BF is 'addicted' to World of Warcraft. She doesn't have a lot of experience with boys (much more with girls -- no comments on this please!), and I've had to mother her a bit on why a boy can sink twenty or more hours a week into a video game and says it "helps me relax and challenges me", but afterwords can't come up with anything better to do than "go bowling" ("where"? "Umm... I'm sure there's one around somewhere"), or "go for a walk".
This may be a silly question, but -- she may have spent three hours bitching to you about it, but has she spent that much time talking to him about it? Nothing is going to change unless he wants to change, and that will not happen unless he understands and accepts that there is a problem.
As a guy, one of the largest frustrations I've had with many (but not all, fortunately) girls is that when something is upsetting them they won't just tell me about it. They might make it obvious that they're upset about something in general, but me being unable to guess exactly what is apparently just another failure on my part. Casually saying something like, "Oh, I wish you'd spend less time playing WoW" doesn't count -- his internal reaction will be "Ok, I'll log off fifteen minutes early today," then he'll shrug and move on.
If the amount of time he spends playing WoW is a serious problem, he needs to be told plainly that it is a serious problem. If he accepts that it's a problem, he can fix it, but otherwise his girlfriend will either have to just accept it or leave him. She's only going to make herself more frustrated if she thinks that he'll change if she just waits long enough.
Parent
Re:Males? (Score:5, Interesting)
his may be a silly question, but -- she may have spent three hours bitching to you about it, but has she spent that much time talking to him about it?
Dammit, this wasn't supposed to be about my friend, but whether games can help boys develop social skills--instead of providing an escape from socially awkward situations. And yes, she has.
Casually saying something like, "Oh, I wish you'd spend less time playing WoW" doesn't count -- his internal reaction will be "Ok, I'll log off fifteen minutes early today," then he'll shrug and move on.
girlspeak translation: Get off the damn computer and pay attention to me when I'm around. It's damn rude to have someone over and then leave them to entertain themselves so you can go play a video game. Homework or a few minutes of e-mail, not a big deal... Wasting four hours on a video game because you need to "relax"... It gives a clear message: I'm not wanted. And when it's my boyfriend doing that, then it's elevate to not only aren't I wanted, but that I'm less attractive than a hunk of circuits and plastic. So yeah, most girls are going to be rightly pissed about that!
If he accepts that it's a problem, he can fix it, but otherwise his girlfriend will either have to just accept it or leave him.
And yet they wonder why we call it an addiction...
Parent
Re:Males? (Score:5, Interesting)
girlspeak translation: Get off the damn computer and pay attention to me when I'm around. It's damn rude to have someone over and then leave them to entertain themselves so you can go play a video game. Homework or a few minutes of e-mail, not a big deal... Wasting four hours on a video game because you need to "relax"... It gives a clear message: I'm not wanted. And when it's my boyfriend doing that, then it's elevate to not only aren't I wanted, but that I'm less attractive than a hunk of circuits and plastic. So yeah, most girls are going to be rightly pissed about that!
Sorry, I didn't mean to sound as though I was defending the guy -- just trying to provide some insight as to why he (and many other guys) behave that way. Most guys simply do not understand "girlspeak," and, unless you've found one of the rare ones who does, expecting him to figure it out is just an exercise in frustration.
And yet they wonder why we call it an addiction...
Oh, I certainly don't wonder. I'm sure Blizzard has hired psychologists to figure out the optimal effort:reward ratio to keep people playing as long as possible. MMORPGs are designed to be addictive by people who understand in great detail how addictions work; that's why telling somebody to stop playing is about as effective as telling an alcoholic to stop drinking.
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
girlspeak translation: Get off the damn computer and pay attention to me when I'm around. It's damn rude to have someone over and then leave them to entertain themselves so you can go play a video game. Homework or a few minutes of e-mail, not a big deal... Wasting four hours on a video game because you need to "relax"... It gives a clear message: I'm not wanted. And when it's my boyfriend doing that, then it's elevate to not only aren't I wanted, but that I'm less attractive than a hunk of circuits and plastic. So yeah, most girls are going to be rightly pissed about that!
See the thing is, unless she _actually_ gets pissed at him instead of saying "I wish you spend less time on wow", he won't know. You can't expect every guy to completely understand every word that she says, it just doesn't work that way. She needs to explain it to him in more frank terms, not wishy-washy words
Re:Males? (Score:5, Insightful)
girlspeak translation: ...
Thank you.
I'm intrigued by your ideas, and wish to purchase your latest edition of your femaleish-maleish dictionary ;)
I'm hoping you tell or have told you boyfriend what you just told us here on slashdot.
And to all the girls, here's how guys communicate: we (almost) always interpret what is said in the most straightforward, say-what-you-mean nothing-between-the-lines way. When I say I have a headache, it's because my head hurts (dammit), not because I sad I didn't get the promotion.
Successful communication requires one or more parties to move out of their comfort zone. It's probably for the best if both do: guys need to read between the lines a bit more, and girls need to tell the guys when and how to read between the lines.
But speaking as a guy, understanding girls isn't made easier by the fact that "I have a headache" sometimes means "my head hurts; end of news bulletin" and sometimes means "I refuse to have sex with you due to something you did within the last month that I won't tell you about" and sometimes "my head hurts really badly; please give me an aspirin and a really big hug."
If you talk to guys the guy way, and tell them flat out what you want, they'll either agree straight away [who doesn't want to hug and comfort their hurting girlfriend?], or at least the two of you will know that you both know that there's an issue to be addressed and what it is. In the latter case, you at least have an easier time talking about solutions than if only one party knows what the problem is.
Parent
Re:Males? (Score:5, Insightful)
Yes I think that is indeed the plain truth, and people fool themselves into thinking that they either automatically deserve to be wanted by their designated *friend, or more importantly that they should desire to be wanted. The reality is that most people hook up with boyfriends or girlfriends for two reasons.
1) Sex
But, the plain fact of the matter is that after a few months, the novelty of sex will wear off. Now, this can be replaced by a long term emotional bond formed over the past few months of intimate contact, but only if that bond was formed. If it wasn't, then there really is no reason for people to stay together except for our other important reason.
2) Social pressures.
Many people in dead end relationships stay there for one primary reason. It is more painful and socially unacceptable for them to have no partner than it is to have a poor partner. The pressure, internal and external, for an adult of "marriageable" age to at least be dating is real and present. I have seen people remain in miserable relationships that are well past their sell by date, and the only reason is that they have, in the colloquial, "settled". The (minor) risk of ending up alone for ever or even for a short period of time is regarded as too frightening to justify leaving a gangrenous union.
The single best lampooning of this behavior can be seen in the South Park episode where Satan is paralyzed with indecision [wikipedia.org] because he cannot decide which boyfriend to settle on. His dilemma is resolved by consulting God, who reveals that his dilemma was a false one because he never actually needed to settle for anyone at all. The Lord of Darkness rediscovered his happiness by simply leaving relationships that were never going to work out.
Returning to the original point, you are correct. Someone's boyfriend spending four hours a night on video game does mean that that they are not wanted, and the incorrect conclusion is to attempt to "salvage" a relationship that is almost certainly doomed anyway. As the saying goes, there are plenty of other fish in the sea and in any case, sometimes fish is not worth the the sacrifices to the rest of your diet!
Move on. Loneliness is temporary. But misery lasts 'till death does you part.
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
Quest - Reward system. People (and males) do tend to work their ass off if it rewards them in the end. That is why any start of a relationship is the most "activity-filled" moments. But as time goes by, doing monotonous things for almost nothing doesn't interest as much.
That is where the Reward system kicks in. If one wants to do something, the other one must also benefit or be rewarded in one way or another (which he/she likes). It could be in a
Re:Males? (Score:4, Insightful)
Parent
Nerds not addicts (Score:5, Insightful)
So 90% were nerds, not addicts.
Define: addiction (Score:4, Insightful)
to devote or surrender (oneself) to something habitually or obsessively. ie. addicted to gambling
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/addicted [merriam-webster.com]
Most people devote a great deal of their time socializing and thus become comfortable socializing. It's part of normal human development. We are social creatures. I tend to think that addiction starts when it causes problems in your life.
The problem is few have studied the long term impact of not learning how to socialize with someone without a LCD screen and a Internet connection. I could potentially see problems arising because not learning how to socialize only makes someone feel even more alienated.
Can you see the potential downward spiral that could apply to this situation that is typically reserved for drug abuse?
tangent (Score:5, Funny)
is it possible to be a sex addict?
aren't we all sex addicts?
isn't this the only way to ensure the survival of our species?
show me a roomful of intelligent, platonic, perfectly personality matched non sex addicted couples, and i'l show you the extinction of homo sapiens in 1.4 generations
show me a roomful of sex addicted drunk raving idiots, and i'll show you 6 billion homo sapiens in a couple thousand generations
Re:tangent (Score:4, Informative)
Parent
Diablo & WoW... AkA Slot Machines (Score:5, Interesting)
Some (admittedly anecdotal) evidence. Don't tell me you never did these things, too:
* "farmed" mobs/bosses/instances/etc in WoW for a random, rare drop.
* loaded and reloaded the barbarian highlands level in diablo II umpteen times to farm for random, rare, drops
* got feelings of joy at the sight of one color triggered at a particular point in the game
All these things seem like more "pulls" on the slot machine, waiting for the lights and sounds to let you know you won. Is there potential for gambiling-addition-like issues in videogames? Yes. Am I terribly concerned and am I going to stop gaming? No.
And tell me anywhere that's worth fitting in ? (Score:5, Insightful)
working 7 to 19.00 every day, in a thankless job that demands way more than it pays ?
or, they should have fit in sleazy bar corners, wasting their life away with sluts (male or female) ?
or, they should become career bitches (male or female) and waste their life away in that manner ?
or they should have fit in with a family. but then again, they have to create a family first, and creating a family has SO much overhead and effort in these days that you can maybe compare it to swimming across english channel.
or, they should have fit in with the immense crowds that are sedating their brain through football spectatorship, or in front of dumb tv shows each night ?
or maybe they could have fit in with their peers, who are entertaining themselves with the MODERN entertainment form that is called gaming ? you know, fitting in WITH YOUR PEERS, as countless generations in the history of mankind has done ?
well. they are just doing that. i think a lot of people, but especially 'experts' need to shut their traps about it, and get to accept this as a normal stage of human civilization.
Re:And tell me anywhere that's worth fitting in ? (Score:4, Insightful)
Parent
Re:And tell me anywhere that's worth fitting in ? (Score:4, Insightful)
Mmm.
How is "pressing the buttons on a skinner box" different from... say, "flipping the skinner cards" [1] or "filling in the skinner puzzle" [2] or "adjusting the skinner carburettor"[3]? These are all socially acceptable activities that we have been engaging in for *ages*.
[1] Solitaire or other single-player card game :/
[2] Crossword puzzle
[3] Um... yeah. I suck at mocking you.
Parent
Try something for me... (Score:4, Insightful)
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
Golf is worse (Score:4, Interesting)
If you want to see addiction, visit a golf course.
It's a real problem. Successful executives have been lost to golf addiction [thesandtrap.com]. Forbes Magazine once commented that more executives have been lost to golf than alcohol. There are people who skip work to play golf. It's not a joke. [badgolfer.com]
Re: (Score:3, Funny)
Right. You're just a drunkard.
Re: (Score:3, Funny)
You're not an alcoholic if you don't go to meetings, you're a drunk.
If you're in university, you're not an alcoholic even if you go to meetings, you're a student.