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Casinos Warn iPhone Card-Counting App is Illegal
Posted by
timothy
on Tue Feb 17, 2009 11:03 AM
from the you-may-only-use-your-regular-brain dept.
from the you-may-only-use-your-regular-brain dept.
An anonymous reader writes "Gaming commissions in Nevada are informing casinos that a new card counting program has made its way to the Apple iPhone, called Hi Lo. This program can be used in the Stealth Mode. When the program is used in the Stealth Mode the screen of the phone will remain shut off, and as long as the user knows where the keys are located the program can be run effortlessly without detection. Randall Sayre, of the Nevada Gaming Commission says 'Use of this type of program or possession of a device with this type of program on it (with the intent to use it), in a licensed gaming establishment, is a violation of NRS 465.075.'"
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Submission: Casinos Warn of New iPhone Card Counting App by Anonymous Coward
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awww poor casinos (Score:5, Funny)
Re:awww poor casinos (Score:5, Insightful)
Card counting on your own, isn't that hard. Sure, it takes a bit of practice, but, it isn't rocket science.
I played with it awhile...I just made sure I first memorized basic strategy....the set play for everything based on your cards vs the dealer.
Once you get that down like 2nd nature...you start going with the +1 -1 for the low and high cards showing up on the table...divide the count by number of decks used to that point..etc.
Not rocket science, but, it does take some practice.
Even if you were using this iPhone app...you'd still have to have basic strategy memorized.
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Re:awww poor casinos (Score:5, Informative)
Well, the reason is speed, accuracy and memory. Mechanical devices used for card counting have been banned for quite a while, this is more of a notification that the iPhones have an app to do it.
When people are doing it in their head, there are strategies in place to cope with that. Usually the dealer will have things that he's allowed to do and in the worst case the pit boss will come over and talk up the player.
I'm not sure that the iPhone is specifically a problem, but it is within the category of cheating devices when used for card counting.
But it is also worth while pointing out that Black Jack isn't a game that any sane casino would offer if they weren't able to make card counting difficult. It's just not profitable, mainly they offer it as a sort of favor to the clients.
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Re:awww poor casinos (Score:5, Interesting)
When people are doing it in their head, there are strategies in place to cope with that. Usually the dealer will have things that he's allowed to do and in the worst case the pit boss will come over and talk up the player.
Yeah, they will do all sorts of things to make you distracted. I stayed at the Flamingo, and some of the $15 black jack tables had pole dancers in the middle of the tables! I stayed away until after they were done for the night, and when the free drinks come around I got myself a bottle of water.
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Re:awww poor casinos (Score:5, Insightful)
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Re:awww poor casinos (Score:4, Insightful)
Sounds like you missed out and some of the fun... Pole Dancers and 'free' drinks sound liek a nice way to spend an evening...
And to lose a lot of money.
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Re:awww poor casinos (Score:5, Funny)
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Re:awww poor casinos (Score:4, Funny)
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Re:awww poor casinos (Score:5, Informative)
NRS 465.088 Penalties for violation of NRS 465.070 to 465.085, inclusive.
1. A person who violates any provision of NRS 465.070 to 465.085, inclusive, is guilty of a category B felony and shall be punished:
(a) For the first offense, by imprisonment in the state prison for a minimum term of not less than 1 year and a maximum term of not more than 6 years, or by a fine of not more than $10,000, or by both fine and imprisonment.
(b) For a second or subsequent violation of any of these provisions, by imprisonment in the state prison for a minimum term of not less than 1 year and a maximum term of not more than 6 years, and may be further punished by a fine of not more than $10,000. The court shall not suspend a sentence of imprisonment imposed pursuant to this paragraph, or grant probation to the person convicted.
REF: http://www.leg.state.nv.us/NRS/NRS-465.html [state.nv.us]
I live about 90 minutes from Las Vegas and I can tell you the state of Nevada is serious as a heart attack about cheating. There are repeat offenders serving LIFE without parole for creating and distributing cheating devices and schemes.
Counting cards in your head is not illegal, but if you do master the art of counting cards without being detected, you can be refused entry at the whim of the casino, just because you are too good at the game... They can walk up and ask you to leave and never return and you must do so. They can also put you face, vital statistics, and biometrics (for facial recognition) in a database shared with other casinos.
Enjoy your stay
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Yeah, but you lose money at Disney. (Score:4, Insightful)
Here's the thing. If you are going to a casino to get money, you are kinda missing the point. The whole essence of the casino is sin, getting the drinks and the hookers and the whole nine yards of decadence and then a good steak, cigar, and a game of cards. That's a man's way to do things.
I mean, you could go to Disney and blow a few hundred bucks on Dumbo balloons... or you could go to Vegas, and gamble, get hammered and get laid. Hmmm, if you are going to blow money, why not blow it something cool. Believe me, once you get married, the gambling, cards, drinking are all going to go away.
The only thing that sucks about so many casinos and bars is that you can't smoke at them. What a stupid thing. A bunch of people whining about second hand smoke and then they all drive home drunk. It's just stupid. Quit being such a pussy about cancer, and smoke up.
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Odd (Score:4, Interesting)
I looked at the pole dancers and boozed up, loosing maybe $20.
Obviously you are smarter then I am.
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Re:awww poor casinos (Score:5, Funny)
some of the $15 black jack tables had pole dancers in the middle of the tables!...free drinks
In fact, forget the... wait, which one of these can I do without?
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Re:awww poor casinos (Score:4, Funny)
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Re:awww poor casinos (Score:4, Funny)
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Re:awww poor casinos (Score:5, Informative)
You're forgetting one very important place in a casino where it is possible to consistently win if you're good - the poker tables.
There you aren't playing against the house. You're playing against other players, and the house doesn't care how much you win because they get a cut of every hand. For a casino, poker is essentially free money with no real risk. For a player, it's a game with much better odds than ones you play against the house if you know what you're doing.
Just be sure to go during the day when the resident sharks are asleep (they only tend to come out at night). There's still plenty of action, and a much better chance of leaving with more money than you walked in with.
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Re:awww poor casinos (Score:5, Insightful)
You mean cheat.
No, cheating conducted by the house, not an individual employee cheating to enrich himself, but actual cheating by the casino at a card game is very rare. I've worked in a casino (riverboat in Iowa) and gambled at almost every casino in the Midwest, and have only seen or heard of real casino cheating once. That was at a tribal casino in South Dakota. They were caught removing cards from a blackjack deck.
To prevent this, and assure the gamblers that the cards are all there, most casinos have implemented a strict procedure for introducing new cards in play. First, the factory sealed decks are brought to the table by pit personnel. They are opened by the pit, but the cards are removed from the box by the dealer. The cards are then spread out on the table, face down, to check for imperfections on the backs. Then they are flipped face up and counted. All cards must be accounted for before the deck is put into play. The same process is repeated for all decks coming into play. When it is time to change those cards for a new deck, the same procedure is followed in reverse. The cards are inspected to assure they are all still present, re-boxed, and set aside for possible further inspection. This is all done in front of the gamblers, who could easily spot missing or duplicate cards. They take this very seriously.
It's rare because they already have a statistical edge against the player; they don't need to cheat. They also need to make sure that the gambling public doesn't associate their establishment with cheating, and stop patronizing them. Then they wouldn't make any money. A casino jealously guards its reputation.
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Re:awww poor casinos (Score:5, Informative)
The other 100,000+ times they were cheating, but not caught I don't believe for a second those machines and wheels are not wired for independent control.
Believe what you want. It doesn't change the fact that you are wrong. I understand how people can think that slots are rigged, the internals of the machine are hidden and complex. But a game like blackjack takes place in full view of the gambler. In roulette, a "fixed" wheel would be spotted relatively quickly by the gamblers. Have you ever seen "system" players at roulette recording the result of every spin? They would see and exploit any irregularity or pattern. If you think craps is being played with loaded dice, bet on the Don't Pass line.
They don't have to cheat. They have the odds on their side. All cheating would do is raise the risk to the casino. It would only take one mistake by any one of the dozens of employees involved in the scam to unravel the entire scheme.
And of course if you do start winning, then they immediately assume you are a cheat and kick you out. Even if you were doing nothing wrong.
That is simply untrue. Casinos want some winners. They want people to win tens of thousands of dollars; because, at the same time, there are more gamblers watching the winner, betting more, and losing. A winning gambler is a casino's best advertising.
Each employee you come into contact with at a casino wants you to win, from the cocktail waitress, to the dealer, to the guy working in the cage. Winners tip. Winners tip well. I've payed out massive amounts of money to winners, and did it with a smile on my face every time.
I have never once seen anyone thrown out of a casino for winning. I have never been thrown out of a casino for winning, and I have had some large wins (I'm not a great gambler, but if you play a lot, you'll win sometimes). Most people thrown out of casinos are drunk and belligerent.
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Re:awww poor casinos (Score:5, Interesting)
Why use the iPhone....?
Card counting on your own, isn't that hard. Sure, it takes a bit of practice, but, it isn't rocket science.
No, standard Hi/Lo counting is pretty easy. Most people can even keep a separate Ace count too. All it takes is practice.
But the power of computer-aided counting is that it can keep track of each card's specific value. Instead of keeping track of only the relative number of high cards played, a computer can keep track of the number of 2's, 3's, 4's, 5's, etc. A computer can process and use every piece of information known about the remaining cards, not just the ratio of high cards to low. It can make the perfect playing and betting decisions every time.
Someone who is using a computer to count cards, therefore has a greater theoretical edge against the house. Or, he can get the same edge as a traditional counter, without having to vary his bets as much. That's the real power of computer-aided counting: less detectability. (Assuming, of course, he's not fiddling with his iPhone on the table the whole time.)
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Re:awww poor casinos (Score:5, Insightful)
Umm I am not sure you understand how Blackjack works -- the dealer can't 'counter' basic strategy, since they do not have a choice about which action to take, and you are only playing against the dealer -- the way the other players play has no effect on your odds of winning. The reason casinos don't mind if you use basic strategy is that even using basic strategy, a player will still win less than 50 percent of the time. Basic strategy is something that should ALWAYS be used, and cannot be countered.. you will just still lose money (although not quite as fast) as you would otherwise (unless you count cards as well).
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Re:awww poor casinos (Score:5, Informative)
WRONG. If another player is playing poorly, he is affecting how the cards come out of the deck. For instance, if another player "hits" on a 20, and takes the Jack that would have (should have) accompanied your Ace, he has most definitely played in a way that affect your odds of winning.
In fact, most blackjack players are expecting you to play the "basic strategy" and will get miffed if you don't.
Before saying in all caps that someone is wrong, you should know what you are talking about. It works out to be the same. In your example, he could have easily have hit another card which allowed you to get your Jack on your turn.
Looking at it another way, the chances of the Jack being at the top of the deck vs. the card underneath it is exactly the same.
I get really annoyed at people who blame others at the table for their losses, saying they shouldn't have hit yadayada. It even happens when you follow basic strategy, they complain when you hit on 16. They only remember the situations where that causes them to lose the hand when they shouldn't have vs. when it made them win the hand.
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Re:awww poor casinos (Score:5, Informative)
Thank you for explaining to this poor guy how basic odds work, I am not sure I could have responded with the same tact.. I also get quite annoyed at this basic misunderstanding of how probability works. An unknown card is an unknown card - by definition of a randomly shuffled deck, each unknown card has an equal chance of being at every position in the deck. In fact the only argument that you could logically make is that a poor player sitting next to you (someone who hits on cards they should stay on) will actually HELP you, because you will see more cards per hand and can therefore COUNT more cards per hand and increase the likelihood that you will encounter favorable deck conditions before you run out of cards. (although at the same time, you might want the loose player to stop taking so many cards once the deck does shift in your favor).
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Re:awww poor casinos (Score:4, Informative)
To be fair, it is possible for one player's decisions to affect another's returns. If a player tended to hit more often with a good count, then he'd make periods of positive count shorter for the other players, which would hurt their expected return. Of course, that wouldn't be bad play; in fact, in some marginal cases it makes sense to hit on a high count when basic strategy says to fold, so it could be unusually good play.
That said, unless a player is specifically changing his betting strategy based on count, you're completely right that his effect on other players' expected returns should average out to nothing.
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Re:awww poor casinos (Score:5, Funny)
Nicky Santoro: A lot of holes in the desert, and a lot of problems are buried in those holes. But you gotta do it right. I mean, you gotta have the hole already dug before you show up with a package in the trunk. Otherwise, you're talking about a half-hour to forty-five minutes worth of digging. And who knows who's gonna come along in that time? Pretty soon, you gotta dig a few more holes. You could be there all fuckin' night.
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Re:awww poor casinos (Score:5, Interesting)
Also funny how no one who works in a casino has ever heard of such a hand stamp.
Also funny how the casinos use this super-secret ink that takes a whole week to wash off. And don't forget the needless details (common in every urban legend) such as "the orange pumice stuff".
When your friend got to his car, was there a hook hanging from the door handle?
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Re:awww poor casinos (Score:5, Funny)
When your friend got to his car, was there a hook hanging from the door handle?
Yes, and the tip of the hook was actually an AIDS-infected needle. It didn't matter though, when he drove the car he flicked his brights at someone who didn't have their headlights on; turned out it was a gang initiation so the guy in the car shot him.
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Hi Lo? (Score:4, Funny)
Re:Hi Lo? (Score:4, Informative)
If they'd have called it Rain Man, they're highly likely to incur the wrath of the MPAA for infringing the trademark of MGM/UA.
There. Fixed that for you.
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How to use in stealth mode? (Score:3, Interesting)
If the screen is off its all well and good to input card appearances with it hidden in your pocket, but how do you get its current odds output? Vibration or something like that?
Re:How to use in stealth mode? (Score:5, Funny)
The iphone battery explodes when it's time to be all in.
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Re:How to use in stealth mode? (Score:5, Funny)
Moot point. If you play with your hands in your pocket you will get busted.
Good advice for any occasion, not just gambling!
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Re:How to use in stealth mode? (Score:5, Funny)
Someone above mentioned blackjack tables with pole dancers, just head to one of those tables, they won't wonder why you're playing pocketed then.
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Would this have widespread use? (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:Would this have widespread use? (Score:4, Interesting)
There are several shufflers around - one is a "continuous shuffler" - basically a circular rake (or one on a belt) that can take cards that moves back and forth randomly. Dealer inserts cards at the top, and they get inserted into the rake one by one, and pulls cards from the bottom, whatever happens to be there. Another kind simply takes cards and shuffles them periodically.
But the usual trick is to simply shuffle after every round - the tables only have one deck in play (and a pre-shuffled deck standing ready to keep play fast). When the round ends, that old deck is tossed into the shuffler, and the new deck dealt. This completely screws up counting. Smaller casinos simply use less decks - turns out more decks in the shoe make card counting more successful.
Also, while card counting itself isn't illegal, using an aid is (mechanical, electronic, etc). But it's easy to spot card counters (the people monitoring the eyes in the sky can count cards too). Heck, I'm surprised they haven't equipped the tables with RFID readers and use cards with RFID in them so a computer at the table can maintain the count and watch the bets and point out potential card counters.
And Blackjack is one of the worst games for a casino - the odds are very low. They only carry it because it's popular. Someone doing basic strategy already has cut down the house advantage to less than half a percent - a very poor return. Card counting tips that into the player's favor.
Finally - do casinos allow cellphones to be used at tables? At best, this warning is just a heads up to people who'll use the application that aids to card counting is illegal, but I suppose if one was trying to learn, they could use it at home or in small groups.
The problem of communicating the count has remained though - but since card counting is a probability play anyways, communicating the rough hotness and coldness of the deck is sufficient.
In short, the iPhone app is nothing new - many people have done this in the past, often with more elaborate contraptions suitable for the lower level of technology in the day...
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Re:Would this have widespread use? (Score:5, Interesting)
Continuous shufflers aren't as reliable about screwing things up as one might imagine. The basic problem is that you aren't guaranteed to hit those dead spots in the decks where most of the cards suck.
This is actually fairly important because it means that with the constraints on the dealer, it means that there's a relatively consistent number of 10 point cards left in the deck. And with the dealer being required to take a hit at any total less than 16 and depending upon the casino will uniformly take a hit or not on 17s.
And as such it changes the dynamics of what you take a hit on, knowing that the dealer has a card between 2 and 6 is more consistent than it is on a table where the decks aren't being shuffled as often.
Which is a long way of saying that while it does limit the traditional card counting, it does open up other conditions in a way which opens up other options.
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Not only that, but detectable and stupid... (Score:4, Insightful)
Card counting really doesn't work that well in Vegas casinos unless you go with a distributed ring: its pretty obvious when an individual is card counting, if you miscount slightly the casino ends up winning big, and the casions can really mess you up, from shuffling more to "backrooming" you and intimidating the F-outta you.
But if they start suspecting this (which is easy, its just like detecting any other card counter, and then looking more fully at where you keep your hands), then they can not just backroom you, but through the legal process, make you WISH they'd just have settled for the old days when they'd have shoved your iPhone where the sun don't shine.
Re:Not only that, but detectable and stupid... (Score:5, Interesting)
They're not gonna backroom you like they did in the old days....they don't need to. They can just simply refuse your play, and if a problem, ban you from that casino, where if you do reenter, you are legally trespassing and they let the law deal with you.
There are ways to count, even as a single person with no team. There are plays that you 'can' make, which are usually very stupid, but, at times can be made and not really lessen your edge you get by counting properly. I was reading one awhile back that where in a strategy, you actually did at times split 10's....a generally stupid move, but, if done at certain times, sparingly, it would not mess with your edge badly, yet it would definitely throw off the casino watching you as a 'serious' counter. I'm sorry I don't have the book around to cite the source, but, it is out there.
Team play is definitely the best way to go, but, most casinos know that MOST people who think they can count cards...will mess up. So, unless you are making huge swings in bets with VERY high denominations of checks...you're likely not going to be harassed. They only really start looking at you if you start taking serious money from them.
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You Watch Too Much TV (Score:5, Informative)
I was busted for card counting just 10 days ago in Vegas. The pit boss politely leaned over and said, "Sir, we are going to have to ask you to stop playing blackjack."
I said, "ok", cashed in my chips and that was that. I got to keep the $200 I won and didn't even get escorted off the premises.
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computer shadowing detects card counting (Score:5, Informative)
Wikipeadia mentions computer programs that track cards (by camera recognition) and bets (RFIDs in chips). The computer computes several of the popular counting schemes and compares that against actual play. Positive correlation with actual betting is suspicion of counting and grounds for expulsion.
Do you want to cheat at cards? (Score:5, Funny)
There's an app for that!
Plagiarism (Score:5, Interesting)
Last paragraph:
'The idea behind counting cards in blackjack is that a deck of cards with a high proportion of high cards (ten-valued cards and aces) to low cards is good for the player, while the reverse (a deck with a high proportion of low cards to high cards) is good for the dealer.[...]
Wikipedia article on Card Counting: [wikipedia.org]
'The idea behind counting cards in blackjack is that a deck of cards with a high proportion of high cards (ten-valued cards and aces) to low cards is good for the player, while the reverse (a deck with a high proportion of low cards to high cards) is good for the dealer.'
C'mon TechFragments. If you copy a Wikipedia article, which you shouldn't be doing anyway, you need to give a link back to the article you copied from and give proper attribution to its authors.
Re:Plagiarism (Score:4, Funny)
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Re:This app is for those of us... (Score:4, Funny)
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Re:slashdot sensationalism (Score:5, Informative)
Wrong:
The Nevada laws are friendly to the casinos, as they make Nevada a LOT of money.
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Re:slashdot sensationalism (Score:4, Insightful)
You mean it's unlawful for any person at a licensed gaming establishment to use, or possess with the intent to use, a brain?
Ah, well, no surprise there.
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Re:slashdot sensationalism (Score:4, Insightful)
Counting cards is NOT illegal
Using a device to assist you in counting cards IS. Geico pointing out that drunk driving is illegal, but that doesn't mean that Geico is MAKING drunk driving illegal.
Further more, whoever submitted the post used a clever trick known as synonyms. Citing a violation of one of the many Nevada Revised Statues is the same as, gasp, warning that the app's usage IS ILLEGAL. Granted the headline could've included, "use of" instead of just the app name would be far more clear. But oh well.
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Re:slashdot sensationalism (Score:5, Interesting)
Also, counting cards is not illegal in any shape or form.
Counting cards WITHOUT THE ASSISTANCE OF DEVICES is legal. If you can do it in your head, signal to collaborating people what the conditions are, etc. you cannot be charged, but if you are discovered counting cards you can be escorted off the property, as is the right of the private establishment.
However, if you use ANY sort of device, be it mechanical or electronic--even so much as a pad of post-it notes and a pen, you are now not only going to be escorted off the property, you are actually breaking the law and are likely to be arrested.
sooo...you are actually quite wrong when you say counting cards IN ANY WAY SHAPE OR FORM is legal, because it clearly is not--only UNASSISTED counting of cards is legal.
Incidentally, the rule also applies to any gambling activity on the casino, not just card games. Some video slot machines have been known to have a poor pseudo-random algorithm and there have been a couple of cases I know of where mathematically inclined people have noticed this and profited from it. In one case, the casino could not press charges because the person in question actually sat and watched the machine himself for many hours. In another case, a concealed photographic device was used to do the observing and that person was charged and convicted.
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Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:I just don't see how it would work. (Score:5, Interesting)
iPhone has an accelerometer, I use a step counting app all the time, imagine the step counting app keeping track, an up kick with your foot is +1, a down kick is -1 and when the app senses the time is right to bet, it vibrates
and fuck the casinos, they can all burn
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Re:From TFA (Score:4, Informative)
Both. According to the gaming laws in Nevada:
According to what you C&P'd, you can't read. It's legal to use it for your own game at your house, so it's legal to own. It's not legal to own it with the intent to use it to actually make money, and it's not legal to use it, either.
It is NOT illegal to own the software. It IS illegal to own the software if you intend to use it to defraud a casino.
The relevant standard in the US courts is "substantial non-infringing use".
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Re:Illegal inside a casino (Score:4, Funny)
But... but... I live in Reno!
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