Utah Senate, House Pass Jack Thompson's Game Sales Bill 200
Ars Technica reports that the Utah State Senate and House have both passed Jack Thompson's proposed legislation that would stiffen penalties for the sale of M-rated games to minors. Oddly, on its trip through the state legislature, amendments rendered it largely ineffective; retailers are in the clear if the employee who sold the game goes through a training program, or if the minor misrepresents his age. It's also possible that the bill could cause some retailers to simply take down their ESRB-related advertising. Thompson's statements about the bill put the focus on advertising, but discussion on the Utah Senate floor had a familiar ring, touching on the story of a Grand Theft Auto player who killed two policemen in 2003. The ESRB wrote an open letter in opposition of the bill, saying it could undo the efforts they've made to popularize their rating system. The bill's sponsors fired back, questioning the industry's overall commitment to ratings, and now it awaits only the governor's signature before becoming law.
why are people... (Score:5, Funny)
STILL listening to Jack Thompson? He's already been certified crazy, disbarred with extreme prejudice (out of a cannon, into the sun) and will probably never practice law ever again.
Besides, we all know Jack Thompson died when Penny Arcade was honored by Washington.
Re:why are people... (Score:5, Insightful)
Um, this is Utah.
Re:why are people... (Score:4, Funny)
Um, this is Utah.
Yeah, silly AC thought the constituents of Utah were people.
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Re:why are people... (Score:4, Insightful)
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Maybe it's safer for you to just stay at home bubble boy.
Your right to smoke stops at the bubble boy's lungs.
If you think you can force your poison into his body, maybe he'll think he can force his blade or bullet into yours. So be civil, because you won't like an escalation of violence. You really won't.
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First. I do not smoke cigarettes.
Second. In a small confined space I can see that smoking should be curtailed. Really though. A lot of place have laws now that you cant smoke outside. This is not about where someones rights end. This is truly about those who believe they are smarter than everyone else deciding what they think others should and should not be able to do.
Third. Sir you show your true extreme left wing colors when you think that escalating from smoking in a bus to shooting someone is anywh
Re:why are people... (Score:5, Insightful)
Insightful?
It's getting as bad as Digg around here.
How about this: Politicians (UT or otherwise) are idiots who will do anything they *think* will make them popular. Right now fighting the evil scourge of video games is a popular choice.
The fact that they're doing this all over the nation should teach us several things -- none of which is "Um, this is Utah."
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Admittedly, I haven't read the actual legislation, just news reports' summary of it, so I am likely misinformed, but frankly, I don't get it either.
Several justifications were presented, but none sound plausible to me. Supposedly, Concerned Citizens think that underage people are going to nick drinks from the bar (has that ever happened in the history of bars?) When I was underage, I just had a friend buy the drink for me and bring it to the table, or better yet, get a bottle from the liquor store and mix
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As far as the video game bill goes... I predict a spike in video game sales in places like Colorado Springs (towns just over the border into another state - where non-Mormon residents of Utah go to buy booze, cigarettes, and a dose of sanity).
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I honestly don't know that there is a correct answer to this question.
Jack Thompson (Score:5, Funny)
Didn't Jack Thompson die?
Re:Jack Thompson (Score:5, Informative)
He was disbarred, which is sort of like dying for a lawyer. But he's still out there, sort of an undead lawyer now.
Re:Jack Thompson (Score:5, Funny)
I always thought that you need to give up your soul and become undead to pass the bar.
Being disbarred is kind of like being rejected by Satan...
Note: IANAL :-0
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I always thought that you need to give up your soul and become undead to pass the bar.
Being disbarred is kind of like being rejected by Satan...
Note: IANAL :-0
Satan's HR: The thing about Jackie is that, at first, we thought he was evil. He was greedy, and slothful...He certainly went the extra mile, or didn't, whichever is good when your talking about sloth, well, that's what he did. And displaced anger, you betcha!
But, over time, we began to notice something. When the other kids were knocking over the candy machine, he would just put up a sign that read "Please don't knock me over. And if you see someone trying to knock me over, please don't watch". When our exe
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He was disbarred, which is sort of like dying for a lawyer. But he's still out there, sort of an undead lawyer now.
Oops. I guess that copy of Dead Rising I sent him was in poor taste.
Brainzzz (Score:3, Funny)
As a zombie, he must be starving in Utah.
Re:Jack Thompson (Score:5, Funny)
Undead Lawyer == Politician?
Re:Jack Thompson (Score:5, Funny)
Undead Lawyer == Politician?
No worse, lobbyest, you can vote out politicians.
Re:Jack Thompson (Score:5, Funny)
He was disbarred, which is sort of like dying for a lawyer. But he's still out there, sort of an undead lawyer now.
He still might be able to get a job with Morcombe, Slant and Honeyplace...
Oh, come on, mods (Score:2, Informative)
That's not Interesting, that's Funny!
For those moderators who don't get it, Morcombe, Slant and Honeyplace are a famous solicitor's office in Ankh-Morpork, on the Discworld; Morcombe and Honeyplace are vampires, and Slant's a zombie.
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And I'm glad someone got it...
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sort of an undead lawyer now
Ach. Terry Pratchett should sue, but that might cause a rip in the space-time continuum.
Re:Jack Thompson (Score:5, Funny)
4092 ? 00:27:00 jackd
6248 ? 00:00:00 jackthompson
$ kill -9 6248
$ ps -A | grep "jack"
4092 ? 00:27:00 jackd
6248 ? 00:00:00 jackthompson
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He was disbarred, which is sort of like dying for a lawyer. But he's still out there, sort of an undead lawyer now.
Thank you. I now have an image of Zombie Jack strolling about, arms reaching outward, holding a copy of GTA in one hand and a summons in the other, drooling "CLAAAIIIIIIIIIMMMMSSS...."
Jack Thompson is not dead yet :( (Score:3, Informative)
Unfortunately, no. You are probably thinking of Jack Valenti, who died in 2007.
"Death of Anti-Gaming crusader blamed on Games" (Score:3, Funny)
Jack Thompson must be alive, because I don't remember seeing anything on CNN about an anti-gaming crusader's death being blamed on video games, nor do I remember any recent Congressional hearings investigating weather or not Thompson's death was inspired by the Grand Theft Auto: IV mission where the player must kill an anti-gaming self-proclaimed "moral crusader" attorney, who states, just before the player must kill the man, that "Guns don't kill people. Video games do."
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What heart?
Or is a stone as black as the pixel(s?) in Doom 3, and made of pure evil, now inside the definition for "heart" in Utah?
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Didn't Jack Thompson die?
No, they shot him in the heart with a silver tipped wooden arrow that had been dipped in holy water, but it had no effect.
Re:Jack Thompson (Score:5, Funny)
Didn't Jack Thompson die?
It doesn't matter, Jack Thompson saves frequently.
Wow.... legislators in Utah (Score:2, Insightful)
must be required to at least pass the 3rd grade?
Even if one video game player killed a cop, that doesn't begin to make things equal to cops who kill with tasers, or cops who accidentally kill innocent civilians because they are too fucking ignorant to make sure they are doing the no-knock raid on the right house.
More fairness in legislation! Yes, the Utah legislators are right on the money for this one. God forbid terrorist game players ever leave the grip of their game consoles.... fucking idiots
Re:Wow.... legislators in Utah (Score:5, Insightful)
This is no different than the war waged by the religious fanatics (and yes, folks, Utah is filled with them) against fantasy roleplaying games. They latched on to something of an urban myth surrounding James Dallas Egbert III [wikipedia.org]. Religious fanaticism, ignorance and intense dishonesty go hand in hand with these types.
Re:Wow.... legislators in Utah (Score:5, Funny)
How is some disillusioned kid thinking D&D is real any different than thinking someone can be crucified, rise from the dead & turn water into wine?
Re:Wow.... legislators in Utah (Score:5, Funny)
Wait, what does David Blaine have to do with any of this?
Re:Wow.... legislators in Utah (Score:5, Interesting)
They latched on to something of an urban myth surrounding James Dallas Egbert III [wikipedia.org].
Egbert was pretty messed up long before fantasy roleplaying came along.
Like many gamers, he was a very smart kid (he graduated high school at 14 or 15), and he really just wasn't ready for the real world. He was two years older than me, but 3-4 grades in front of me, so I didn't know him personally, but my parents knew his parents moderately well.
The stories in the papers were pretty sensationalistic, because at the time, D&D was just really catching on, and (like you said) a lot of people wanted some ammo against it. Anybody who did any research would have known that he had been on thin ice for a long time, but nobody dug deeper and the lie the investigator told stood for years. Despite his book, nobody remembers the real story.
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What good is posting this here going to do? You're preaching to the choir. We all know that this is stupid; we also know that JT is a jackass. That doesn't stop the rest of the world from listening to and believing him; and it doesn't stop legislators from being clueless. (Along with the vast majority of people who find such notions credible)
If you want to do something about it, set about educating your elected representatives (assuming you're in the US...). That's the only thing that can make a dif
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You don't like cops much do you?
http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=1157399&cid=27166995 [slashdot.org]
Isn't the point of the M rating that kids don't buy these titles anyways?
This is just a repetitive law. Just like the hate crime laws passed to make hate crimes murder more illegal than regular murder. Or added laws about selling and distributing alcohol / tobacco to minors.
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God forbid terrorist game players ever leave the grip of their game consoles....
Exactly why legislation like this should be shot down! If game players are driven from their consoles by puritans, we'll become terrorists! Clearly every house with a game console in it must be covertly replaced with a very deep crater, to ensure this terrorist threat never be allowed to materialise.
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They aren't forbidding anyone from buying the game (who can legally do so), they aren't making it any harder to buy the game (who can legally do so).
In fact, this is the only part of game development that the legislature needs to be involved in, is the sale of it to minors. The biggest hole in Thompson's argument is that none of the kids w
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I was hoping that someone would follow through with the obvious... thanks. We need to be regulating police officers off-time activities even tighter since they have open/easy access to weapons.
The gist (Score:5, Insightful)
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From skimming a selection of this post: Ass covering is the best policy.
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From skimming a selection of this post: Ass.
Re:The gist (Score:4, Funny)
Re:The gist (Score:5, Funny)
Null reference exception.
Re:The gist (Score:5, Funny)
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So ... if the store publically says, "We will sell M-rated games to ANYONE", they're in the clear? Interesting.
GTA prevents cop kills (Score:5, Interesting)
Only three GTA players have killed cops? GTA must make people less likely to kill cops. After all, think of all the killing of cops not associated with GTA players.
Hmm, perhaps an occasional game of fake-blow-shit-up would make disaffected youths less likely to really-blow-shit-up? It is all about the kids, right?
Re:GTA prevents cop kills (Score:5, Insightful)
Catharsis is a myth; no research supports it. All we've ever learned from psychology research about violence is that it is largely a learned behavior. Kids will learn it mainly from family and friends but they also learn violence from strangers, TV, movies, music, and games. Now, violent media may not explain a lot of the variance in violent behaviors but it is completely naive to say that it does not have an affect. There are some people who can drink alcohol and never become alcoholic; there are others who try alcohol once and become alcoholic very quickly. It's the same with violence. Just because violent games may not generally lead to increased rates of violence in a society, does not mean that they don't for some people.
I'm not calling for a censorship of violent games. I'm not even sure I like this legislation (I'd have to read the full bill to form a good opinion) and I'm certainly not in favor of a government doing the parenting that parents should do but kids don't need to be playing some of the games that they play.
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That's a slippery slope you're on (but kudos for all the qualifiers). Do I have this correct? Is the argument that because *some* people are inherently prone to addiction to X, nobody should have access to X? We (USians) tried that with alcohol and we're trying it with "drugs" -- now we're going into the same pit with games? Better be careful or that game of Operation might turn your kid into a sadist.
Regarding those three, by your argument they would've killed somebody anyway. At least cops go in with
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A basic problem with drug prohibition is that the "cure" is worst that the "disease". Which is something which was never learned from alcohol prohibition. Though it's difficult to know
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Violence is a learned behavior? I cant think of a more natural action then violence. Really irritates me when people forget that humans are still animals, driven by the same urges as animals, with only sentience to quell it. When one animal kills another we ascribe no malice to it, but when a human does it all of a sudden its a crime against god....
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This troubles me. I can definitely deduce a sense of inverted logocentrism in your post. Human beings are not animals. Even "animals" are not animals - at least not in the sense you advocate. What you refer to (if I read your post correctly) is the paranoic human ecology. A radical separation of self from world, such that self *becomes* world.
I think it important to stand against human/human crime on the very assertion you make in your original post.
but when a human does it all of a sudden its a crime against god....
As Martin Niemoller said "We must go on believing the
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1) Tell me what you don't understand. I'll explicate, if you're polite.
2) Yeah, I guess I could have just said "be nice," "make love, not war." They do make good sound-bites, don't they...? But were I do go about preaching like that I'd run the risk of being a hippie. I find the idea of humans killing other human beings under the auspices of "we are all animals, right?" completely irrational and utterly repugnant AND has nothing to do with neither "being nice" nor "making war."
3) Please don't conflate y
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Killing a fellow human is a learned behavior. Almost every single person has an innate resistance to killing someone. There's plenty of research to back this up.
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We are as wired for violence as we are for sex. Natural hormones drive both agression and mating.
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Catharsis is a myth; no research supports it.
Show me research that supports that catharsis is a myth.
Friggin' Utah. (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:Friggin' Utah. (Score:4, Insightful)
I guess Utah Mormon is a bit of a different breed than Mormons from almost everywhere else. It must be the effect of any one group having a majority.
Interesting you should say that. As a Mormon who was born and raised in the Seattle area, spent 4 years living in Utah while going to school, and who has since moved back to the Seattle area to start my career, I have some of the same feelings.
Just yesterday I was in the car with a good friend (also a Mormon who has lived in and out of Utah) and we came the similar conclusion that whenever you have a group that homogeneous, it is human tendency for certain "quirks" to emerge which do not necessarily reflect the identity of the group abroad. You could expect some of the same culturalisms to emerge (some good, some bad) for any other homogenous group.
That said, I do differ from you in that I could see myself living there (though you would have to pay me to leave Seattle). After living there for a year or two, you learn to ignore the parts of the culture you don't like and embrace the ones that you do.
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Being Mormon, growing up outside of Utah, and having lived in 4 different states, including Utah, I can't wait until I can move back to Utah. Utah Mormons are no different than Mormons elsewhere - there are just more Mormons per capita so you end up with a few bad seeds, just like you do in every group of people. I've never met nicer people than I have in Utah.
Utah certainly isn't for everyone, although the Salt
Re:Friggin' Utah. (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Friggin' Utah. (Score:4, Funny)
Holier-Than-Thou @&#%$%@s.
I think there's a parse error in your Perl.
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I am a Mormon (converted a few years back, in college) and have lived in Ohio and California, but never Utah. I've visited friends in the area and my wife has some extended family there, but I have to say that I can't stand the so-called "Mormon culture" that has sprung up in some areas.
On issues of religion, we agree fully. As Latter-Day Saints (the actual name of members of the "Mormon" church), I would call them my brethren. But I most certainly don't get the Jello-eating, "oh-my-heck"-curs
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Re:Friggin' Utah. (Score:5, Funny)
Then again, there be lotsa slutty Mormon girls who will do everything but vag...
Good use of public money (Score:4, Insightful)
I love how state after state try to pass this exact same bad law, only to have it shot down in the courts and they have to pay legal fines.
Great to know they're doing something productive.
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This, of course, only means that it's toothless as well as being unconstitutional.
Training programs? (Score:5, Insightful)
'Training programs' sound like a money-maker for the videogame censorship movement.
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So does 'stiffen penalties'.
Come Again? (Score:2)
Oddly, on its trip through the state legislature, amendments rendered it largely ineffective...
So why do you still complain? They added amendments that make the things you fear not happen. I understand that you don't like Utah, but stop making stuff up just to bash them.
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Re:Come Again? (Score:5, Insightful)
The fact that a law is unenforceable doesn't mean that it should be there on the books just for shits and giggles.
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Okay, then the ball's in your court. From what point of view is this law effective?
Jack Thompson. He'll use this to get PR millage and rail against his critics.
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Then the people ragging against video games can point out that retailers don't even follow the ESRB ratings, and claim that the self-regulation clearly is not working, and try to get even more harsh, government backed regulations in place to fully replace the ESRB.
As far as the bills official intent, it seems pretty fa
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Revenge! (Score:5, Interesting)
Picture the sales clerk saying OK kid! You must first misrepresent your age before I am allowed to sell you this game!
Re: Revenge! (Score:4, Funny)
Bart: One "Itchy And Scratchy At It It Again", please.
Big Tony: How old are you, kid? Keepin' in mind, of course, that I can legally sell you this game unless you are over 18. Think hard before you answer.
Bart: (thinking) uummm, 23?
Big Tony: Here you go, and have a nice day.
(no I don't know why Big Tony would be selling the game)
The biggest threat to digital freedom is Utah (Score:2)
Utah, could you just leave the union and maybe we can replace your star with American Samoa?
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What religion isn't?
They should also make oxygen against the law (Score:2)
The fact that 3 people who have killed police officers played violent video games results in this law? How about this.
All cop killers have breathed oxygen.
Therefore use of oxygen may lead to killing cops.
So they should outlaw breathing oxygen,
Starting in the Utah state house and senate.
Im sure that it will be much more effective in stopping crime. :)
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If symptoms of a lack of oxygen are taken to include brain death, there is ample evidence they banned oxygen some considerable time ago.
No, Congress MUST ban this deadly chemical, DHMO! (Score:4, Funny)
Dihydrogen Monoxide (DHMO) is a colorless and odorless chemical compound, also referred to by some as Dihydrogen Oxide, Hydrogen Hydroxide, Hydronium Hydroxide, or simply Hydric acid. Its basis is the highly reactive hydroxyl radical, a species shown to mutate DNA, denature proteins, disrupt cell membranes, and chemically alter critical neurotransmitters. The atomic components of DHMO are found in a number of caustic, explosive and poisonous compounds such as Sulfuric Acid, Nitroglycerine and Ethyl Alcohol.
Each year, Dihydrogen Monoxide is a known causative component in many thousands of deaths and is a major contributor to millions upon millions of dollars in damage to property and the environment. Some of the known perils of Dihydrogen Monoxide are:
Not to mention the fact that DHMO can be connected to almost EVERY murder in the United States! All those people dead because someone was allowing this compound into his or her body.
Just look at some of the uses this deadly chemical is used for:
Good... (Score:2)
Agreed (Score:2)
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Explaining to your child why an adult game or movie or program isn't for him or her is surprisingly easy to. "Its not that these games will hurt you or control you or that your not smart enough to understand the material within these games. Its simply that they weren't designed for you. Like watching C-SPAN or the history channel or reading a book on Nietzche instead of a comic book. If you want to play these games, watch some adult television and read some of these books first. Your not missing out on anything."
But... I read Nietzsche as a child. I would've watched the history channel and C-SPAN if we had had cable. I read encyclopedias and the dictionary instead.
Yeah, I know, I was a strange kid
You're fighting the wrong battle (Score:2)
I don't understand the uproar over the fact that someone is attempting to enforce the restraints suggested by the ESRB. I suppose you might actually be upset that they are wasting tax dollars... but if that is the case, then say so. (The article seems to notice this, I'm just referring to the replies that I have read so far)
If you have a problem with the idea that a game rated "Mature" might only be appropriate for someone "mature", then consider what the article actually says. The Utah legislature didn't m
Utah... The land of "special underwear" (Score:2)
Its Utah what do you expect? They wear special underwear to protect them from the world and remain in touch with "god"
Jack Thompson fits right in with those crazy fucks.
It's Utah... (Score:2)
Training (Score:3, Insightful)
"Retailers are in the clear if the employee who sold the game goes through a training program."
I wonder which politicians friend will be given the no-bid contract on administering the "training program"? Should bring in a nice fee... 50% of which can be funneled into back into a campaign fund.
Dissonance (Score:3, Interesting)
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I'll be interested in hearing why the First Amendment suddenly does not apply to regulation of the press in Utah.
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While I do not agree with the bill, no game publisher's free speech is being restricted, no game company is being prosecuted by the government for the content of the games. The games are still able to be sold, and while not as damaging as cigarettes, alcohol, guns (yes, in most states you have to be 18 to jump through the hoops solo to get a gun), or porn, an average, voting citizen's access to the games are not restricted and the game company has not been silenced.
First Amendment law requires strict scruti
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Since the goal (regulating commercial press activity) is unconstitutional to begin with...
So, you're saying false advertisement laws are unconstitutional...
If you ever get elected, I can finally sell my cancer-curing-dirt-cheap-wonder-drug! Maybe i can even get Billy Mayes to put in a good word.
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