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Konami Announces a Game Based On a 2004 Battle In Fallujah
Posted by
Soulskill
on Tue Apr 07, 2009 07:54 AM
from the tread-lightly dept.
from the tread-lightly dept.
The LA Times reports that Konami has announced Six Days in Fallujah, a video game due out next year that is based on an actual battle fought in Iraq in 2004. Quoting:
"The idea for the game ... came from US Marines who returned from the battle with video, photos and diaries of their experiences. Instead of dialing up Steven Spielberg to make a movie version of their stories, they turned to Atomic Games, a company in Raleigh, NC, that makes combat simulation software for the military. ... 'The soldiers wanted to tell their stories through a game because that's what they grew up playing,' said John Choon, senior brand manager for the game at Konami... More than a dozen Marines are featured in documentary-style video interviews that are interspersed with the game's action. The Marines reappear in the game itself, doing pretty much what they did during the war. One tells the story of how he furiously wrote a letter to his wife and begged a chaplain to give it to her if he died. Another, Eddie Garcia, talks about how his right leg was shredded in a mortar attack, and how he suffered survivor's guilt after he was taken out of combat."
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Iraq Game Sparks Outrage, Soldiers Have Mixed Reactions 196 comments
We recently discussed news that Konami will be releasing a video game based on a 2004 battle in Fallujah. Many people have now had a chance to react to the game, and there has been a great deal of criticism voiced over the game's choice of setting. A group of families of soldiers who lost their lives in the war questioned "how anyone can trivialize a war that continues to kill and maim members of the military and Iraqi civilians to this day." Others criticized the game's glorification of the "massacre." Conversely, some soldiers and veterans have responded with optimism, hoping the game can raise awareness of the realities of war. Dan Rosenthal, Iraq veteran and long-time gamer, worries whether Konami will be able to do justice to the experience. Eurogamer posted a related story about the controversy over increasingly realistic war games.
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Konami Cuts and Runs From Iraq War Game 321 comments
Less than a month after the announcement of Six Days in Fallujah , a video game based upon a real-life battle between US Marines and Iraqi insurgents in 2004, Konami has decided that it is too controversial, and abandoned plans to publish the game. The developer, Atomic Games, has not commented on Konami's decision other than to say an announcement will be made soon. Konami told a Japanese newspaper, "After seeing the reaction to the video game in the United States and hearing opinions sent through phone calls and e-mail, we decided several days ago not to sell it." While the game did receive a great deal of criticism, others were optimistic, including several outspoken veterans of the Iraq war. One of the major complaints was that in researching the battle, Atomic Games reportedly interviewed several insurgents. This prompted speculation that the insurgents were compensated for their help, though Atomic later denied that was the case. Konami's decision also may have been influenced by the fact that they seemed to represent it as entertainment, whereas Atomic's president, Peter Tamte, was more hesitant to describe it as "fun." He said, "The words I would use to describe the game — first of all, it's compelling. And another word I use — insight."
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On the Advent of Controversial Video Games 343 comments
eldavojohn writes "At some point in the history of video games, violence became uncomfortably real for censors and some parents. In addition to that, realistic use of narcotics has entered mainstream games. While gamers (of adult age) have by and large won the right to this entertainment, a large amount of games have arisen lately that challenge a different aspect of video games — inappropriate or sensitive topics. We've covered it before on Columbine to Fallujah, but I noticed through GamePolitics recently a large trend in severely controversial video games. Where do you stand on these titles?"
Read on for the rest of eldavojohn's thoughts.
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This is sick (Score:5, Insightful)
I've spoken to some people that were at Fallujah. I guess everyone sees it differently, but they saw it as a massacre. Over 1300 "insurgents" dead, less than 100 Americans.
They told me stories of teams of people that would go into apartment buildings and shoot every single thing in it. These people were all "insurgents". Entire families of insurgents.
I'm sure I'll get modded down for this, but screw it. What if someone made a game glorifying Rhwanda? Cambodia? I realize its not the same thing, but there are certain "battles" that shouldn't be immortalized as heroic actions.
Re:This is sick (Score:5, Insightful)
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Re:This is sick (Score:5, Funny)
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Re:This is sick (Score:5, Insightful)
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Re:This is sick (Score:5, Funny)
These Marines want to tell their story, as many veterans have before them, and they want to do it in a way that they know will reach their own generation
the problem is that their generation gets to play out the story in the only way they know how:
"yo dude, I'm like, totally teabagging the corpses of your entire family of displaced persons"
"goddam wallhacking AWP whore!"
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Re:This is sick (Score:5, Insightful)
We have to wait and see how it turns out, but so far pretty much any depiction of war in video games was a glorification, because they are always extremely one sited, never have civilians in it and you are always in the winning team. And when they are labeled "accurate" that pretty much only means that they will fill you with straight American propaganda.
Now of course, there are some rare exceptions, such as Operation Flashpoint: Resistance, which starts you as civilian, then your little island gets invaded by the Russians, many of your friends get executed or die and you end up basically the insurgence fighting back the invasion. You also happen to die at the end. But such exceptions are very rare.
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Re:This is sick (Score:5, Funny)
I see what you mean. That kill ratio is pretty extreme.
You can't have the player getting killed one encounter in 13. They'll have to tone it down a whole lot, I reckon. Something nearer 100:1 would be nearer the typical FPS ratio.
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An unfair fight is the point of war (Score:5, Insightful)
You seem to be under the delusion that wars are meant to be fair. That, somehow, an equal number of people should be killed on both sides and that's the good way to do a war.
That is stupidest thing imaginable.
The fact is, we spend 500B a year on the military so that when we do fight people, it is a massacre. We do not want our guys to die. We want their guys to die.
If you don't want massacres, then don't fight the USA. That the USA can massacre its opponents is a GOOD thing, as it brings more American soldiers home alive.
Now, if you don't want this, then don't send soldiers off to war, but that's a different debate. Once they are there, you want Americans to be able to kill enemies like a Power'd up dude in a video game.
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If you don't want massacres... (Score:5, Insightful)
"If you don't want massacres, then don't fight the USA."
Ummm...they didn't "fight us", we invaded them, based on our president's dislike of their ruler and a bunch of trumped up "evidence".
Yes, they fought back, but think of what would happen if some foreign power invaded us. Certainly, there would be some who would choose to fight back.
Guerilla war is like that...the innocent die along with the insurgents, who shelter among them.
But, let's remember who started it, and not place *all* of the blame on the opponent.
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Re:An unfair fight is the point of war (Score:5, Insightful)
So in your sick, sorry world, once we are at war we can kill all the civilians we want, and that is a good thing.
Dude, that's what war is. If you don't want war, then don't fight them. Don't sit there and pretend that war is a noble thing like a video game with so many rules. That only makes it more palatable to fight. I'd put this to you - if civilians understood that they would get killed in wars too, they might be a lot less likely to build, finance and cheer on the armies to fight them.
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Re:An unfair fight is the point of war (Score:5, Interesting)
This was more or less the reasoning behind the 2005 bombings on the London Underground.
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Re:An unfair fight is the point of war (Score:5, Insightful)
This was more or less the reasoning behind the 2005 bombings on the London Undergroun
This is why we say that terrorism is an act of war, not a police matter.
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Re:An unfair fight is the point of war (Score:5, Insightful)
Congrats, noob. You just discovered "war is hell".
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Re:An unfair fight is the point of war (Score:5, Insightful)
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Re:An unfair fight is the point of war (Score:5, Insightful)
That is an understandable attitude and that is why no one would have accused the US soldiers of utter lack of conscience if that is what they were doing. But they were not, instead, they were the villainous party in this war, attacking other peoples' homes, as the aggressors, not as the defenders.
What really gets my goat is that the very Americans who, like you, would have done their patriotic duty, fail to recognize in their victims the very actions they, themselves, would be proudly undertaking in their place. The cognitive dissonance is frightening.
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Re:An unfair fight is the point of war (Score:5, Insightful)
Which is why I pray to the imaginary God that we will see the civil war the wing-nutters predict, so I can do to you what you so casually believe we should do to others.
I think you basically just can't admit that you are a killer yourself. You hold your righteousness up no differently than any of the bible thumping protestants you despise, and, at the end, when people walk away from your grandstanding and go get pizza, you can only clench your fists in frustration, and say, "that's why I'm going to kill you all". All of this stuff about saving the planet, cutting back on standards of living, being pro-choice, is just your expression of that... you want to people to be poorer, people to kill their unborn, people to die, all because nobody listens to you. Liberals the people of peace? They are the biggest murderers of them all and always have been.
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Re:An unfair fight is the point of war (Score:5, Insightful)
I don't think the GP was trying to suggest that he advocated the deliberate targetting of civilians. However, it is true that when one side in a war fights the battles in the middle of a town, not wearing uniform, that lots of civilians are going to be killed. When a sniper opens fire from a window they're inviting artillery fire on the building they're firing from. Lots of people are going to die, and that is unfortunate.
When soldiers raid a building and nobody reveals who the insurgents are, and then some soldier gets shot while trying to systematically search every person, then the next time soldiers go into a buliding the grenade will go through the door first. That is unfortunate, but that is what happens in war.
Many "civilians" in these kinds of wars give shelter and comfort to the combatants, and do their best to conceal them. Those are not the actions of a noncombatant, and while it shouldn't be punished by summary execution it will lead to escalations in the level of force employed.
Look, we can all argue about whether it is right or wrong or whatever. That won't change history - when you conduct combat operations in a town people living there are going to die. If you don't want people to die the solution is to not get into a war in the first place, but that is an action that requires two parties to agree upon. Wars are never stopped unilaterally unless it is the result of the complete destruction of the ability of the other side to make war.
I'm also the first to question US foreign policy in the Middle East. However, the dead civilians are the natural result of these policies (and the counter-policies adopted by US opponents) and not merely the result of a few soliders getting out of hand.
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The USA is kinda hypocrites, but not in Iraq (Score:5, Insightful)
I don't really advocate the deliberate killing of civilians.
I mean, if the USA wanted to, we could have just pulled the troops into a ring around Fallujah or any other Iraqi town and firebombed it. We could have issued the Iraqi equivalent of Commisar orders like the Nazis did - and incidentally, were followed by the Wermacht, and have shot any tribal leader or Islamic cleric on site. We could have had reprisal hangings in villages.
But, the USA didn't do -any- of that.
If anything, the soldier in Iraq has been -more- fair with his opponents than ever before.
I mean, we hung the Nazi's at Nuremburg for waging war on civilians, when our own strategic bombing strategy was in fact to kill as many German civilians as possible to bring about a quicker end to the war. There was no military need to firebomb major German cities. Yet, the truth is, in the scale of the war, American firebombing was actually far less terrible than what the Germans did to everyone else, so the USA came off as far more humane.
If you don't want people to die the solution is to not get into a war in the first place
Bingo.
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Re:The USA is kinda hypocrites, but not in Iraq (Score:5, Informative)
Are you aware that the Germans and Japanese killed civilians by other means than bombing?
Germany ran death camps that murdered several million civilians, and murdered more millions in other ways.
Japan was not as organized, but their civilian toll does run in the eight digits somewhere. Let's not forget Unit 731 in Manchuria, where among other things Japanese surgeons practiced amputations - on healthy limbs, without anesthesia.
The Western Allies (including the US) committed plenty of atrocities. I'm unaware of any major power in a large war that didn't. However, they weren't anywhere near on the scale of the Germans and Japanese. The Western Allies, for all their faults, were the humanitarians in that war.
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Re:An unfair fight is the point of war (Score:5, Informative)
I was there in 2004 alongside the Marines (Army Infantry), and coalition psyops basically blanketed the city for weeks prior to the invasion with the message that all civilians needed to leave the city and any male over the age of 15 who stayed would be considered a combatant. We all but told them exactly when we were coming and "you want to fight, let's fight...you want to live, get the hell out of the town".
The civilian casualties that I saw were caused by bombing the city prior to the attack and bombing/artillery on specific buildings that insurgents were using as strong points that couldn't be taken any other way.
At no time did I or anyone in my company fire upon any civilian. In fact the only civilians that I saw were after the fact when they came out of their hiding places and surrendered. We sent them on their way with the MP's, safe and sound.
What I did see was a lot of AK and RPG's fired at my Bradley Fighting Vehicle. I took 4 within the span of 15 minutes. Thank $DEITY for that reactive armor.
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Re:An unfair fight is the point of war (Score:5, Insightful)
If you're firing RPGs, you're not a non-combatant, no matter how wrong you think the invasion is.
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Re:An unfair fight is the point of war (Score:5, Insightful)
If the US were invaded, I would consider attacking the invaders. However, I would then no longer be a civilian, but a resistance fighter. If I fire on that column of tanks, or snipe their officers, I can't really complain when they shoot back at me. That'd be a risk I would have to accept. If I attacked them and then expected to be considered an "innocent civilian", I'd be a fool.
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Re:This is sick (Score:5, Interesting)
I've spoken to some people that were at Fallujah. I guess everyone sees it differently, but they saw it as a massacre. Over 1300 "insurgents" dead, less than 100 Americans.
As opposed to every other wargame in history that glosses over war crimes and touchy topics?
I mean how many D-Day games were there that never even mentioned the fact that the Allies were under orders not to take prisoners for the first 24 hour of the invasion and that they were often killing 16 year old German reservists.
And to be fair Germans, Japanese, and Soviets did far worse things...
Yeah, sometimes war is really brutal and people do bad things and have to do bad things in order to survive (at least they think they do).
And then sometime in the future someone will make a game about it, but they are probably not going to include the really bad parts.
I mean in Silent Service series... Do you get to machine gun the Japanese sailors after sinking the merchant ship?
No.
But did it happen sometimes in the real war.
Yes.
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Re:This is sick (Score:5, Informative)
You do realize we made it very public in and around Fallujah that we were going to attack the city before hand right? We encouraged people to leave the city before we took it. These were no unenlightened individuals struck by a surprise attack.
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Re:This is sick (Score:5, Funny)
This is what he means by massacre
War is hell. Given that we sustained almost 100 KIA and nearly 600 WIA, it seems like a safe assumption that we were fighting people who were actually shooting back. Hence I'm skeptical about claims of a "massacre".
it makes you a moron
Also, fuck you ;)
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Re:This is sick (Score:5, Informative)
As soon as you are a fighting force hiding amongst the populace you are no longer part of a legal army, you are a terrorist, and anyone assisting these people are also the same.
Not immedeatly. It makes you a guerrilla first. And given that a guerrilla army needs the support of the local populace, a guerrilla army can only *defend* a territory as it's almost impossible to act on enemy territory. If some cell manages to do so, attacking civilians, thats terrorism.
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Re:Victory (Score:5, Insightful)
I think the men and women that go overseas are some of the bravest and most honorable people around, and that while a few may be gung-ho and shoot everything in sight, most do their best to keep civilian casualties to a minimum.
At least, I don't recall reading of any pits with thousands of bodies in them, or our GIs beheading "insurgents" on live television for everyone to watch. Instead, I read of our GIs helping rebuild hospitals and helping to rebuild the infrastructure that was destroyed during the initial fighting.
Go ahead and live in your dream world where you read only about our guys being the bad guys, and those who think nothing of purposefully attacking civilians with suicide bombers are just victims.
And I'll live in mine.
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Entertaining horrors of war (Score:5, Interesting)
FTA: "For us, the challenge was how do you present the horrors of war in a game that is also entertaining, but also gives people insight into a historical situation in a way that only a video game can provide? Our goal is to give people that insight, of what it's like to be a Marine during that event, what it's like to be a civilian in the city and what it's like to be an insurgent." ... "Our opportunity for giving people insight goes up dramatically when we can present people with the dilemmas and the choices that faced these soldiers... It's a chance to really give them a better understanding and empathy."
Seems like this is more of a "real" first-person-shooter: it's not only based on history, it's actually built with living combatants in mind.
Some folks are going to call it tasteless to "present the horrors of war in a game that is also entertaining," but how is it any less tastless than playing a fictional character in such a game??
Re:Entertaining horrors of war (Score:5, Funny)
This would make a lot of sense for training Marines, but why a mass market game? They say they want to tell their stories, but that's what memoirs are for. Looks to me like they are out to make a buck.
... and since we were in Iraq keeping the world safe for Socialism, we must stamp down any attempt to make a buck. Highly insightful, Comrade!
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Re:Entertaining horrors of war (Score:5, Interesting)
Video games, blogs and podcasts will be the memoirs of the 21st century.
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Re:Entertaining horrors of war (Score:5, Insightful)
This would make a lot of sense for training Marines, but why a mass market game? They say they want to tell their stories, but that's what memoirs are for. Looks to me like they are out to make a buck.
They want to reach people like them: people who are growing up playing video games. Sure, a memoir would get the story out there, but few potential marines (a demographic which overlaps heavily with video-game-playing teenagers) are going to pick it up. The point isn't just to be heard, the point is to be heard by the people to whom it matters.
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What a great thing. (Score:4, Insightful)
I think its good that Americans who fought Fallujah get to tell their story. We've had plenty of insurgent friendly lefties tell theirs for long enough, indeed, some are posting here. The fact of the matter is that Fallujah was the one place where insurgents tried to make a pitched battle rather than hit and run as normal. Urban fighting ensued, and the insurgents ultimately lost.
Re:What a great thing. (Score:5, Insightful)
I like how "defending your country from a foreign invading army" suddenly becomes "insurgents that needs some killing".
War sometimes is a necessity, invasion, hardly.
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Re:What a great thing. (Score:5, Insightful)
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Re:What a great thing. (Score:5, Insightful)
Our soldiers go out there to protect innocent lives.
Actually, no, our soldiers go out there to execute the policy of the United States of America.
Unfortunately, they don't seem to give a shit about other nations' innocents, only American innocents.
That's generally how military forces work.
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Let's see what it looks like (Score:4, Insightful)
slashdot and hypocrisy (Score:5, Insightful)
hundreds of games exist whee you murder people for fun and profit. you even kill prostitutes o take their money in GTA.
now, finally, actual soldiers want to make their own game, and slashdotters think it is 'sick'.
what is truly sick is the utter disconnection of slashdotters with reality. the site is replete with stories on 'cool new weapons', the video game reviews and mentions are legion, star wars is almost a religion.... the political and history and philosophy discussions are strictly on a high school level.... this article is a perfect example of that.
people who sit around pretending to be soldiers for hours a month, are 'discomforted' by the real stories of actual soldiers. they find it 'sick' and 'disturbing' that actual soldiers want to tell a story.....
but if anyone protests against video game violence, they are instantly shouted down as 'prudes' or 'against freedom of speech' by the slashdot legions.
it is no wonder the the USA makes bad decisions, its own people are apparently repulsed by reality, and prefer to live in a fantasy world.
Yet another Medal of Honor re-spin and rip-off (Score:5, Funny)
The only thing that would make this game interesting would be for both factions to be playable.
Better yet, make the entire Iraq war an MMORPG.
Re:Oh man... (Score:4, Insightful)
If Fallujah is ok we should have a gas chamber game. You go around in a big truck and kill thousands of jews
Oh give me a fucking break.
I'm normally ok with this sort of thing but this is up there on the offensive scale
The only thing that's offensive is some jackass invoking the memory of genocide to describe a battle where less than 2,000 people died.
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Re:Oh man... (Score:5, Insightful)
So genocide is about numbers, not actions?
Genocide is defined as the systematic extermination of an entire national, racial, political, or ethnic group. Do you really think that's what our forces were doing in Fallujah? If you do you are a moron. If you don't then you ought to be calling out morons like the GP who make dumbass comparisons with the Holocaust to stir up emotion.
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Well that's war for you... (Score:5, Insightful)
Honestly though this is sick. It was a wholesale slaughter of people. Burning corpses hanging in chunks from buildings. People having their flesh burned to the bone while they are alive. I'm normally ok with this sort of thing but this is up there on the offensive scale. Not going to leave out the fact that the US violated weapons treaties are we?
What the fuck do you think war is dude? A bunch of people running around like in Unreal Tournament or HALO with fake manly voices going "Roger Roger" and shooting all the time?
Phosphorus bombs are not a violation of any weapons treaty. And besides, we had no treaty with the insurgency, so screw them.
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Re:Scumbags (Score:4, Informative)
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Re:Scumbags (Score:5, Informative)
This is an example of the problem with International Treaties, like the Geneva Conventions.
They only apply to countries who voluntarily agree to have them apply.
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Re:Scumbags (Score:5, Interesting)
No, it's not a valid weapon of war. Like wooden bullets, white phosphorous was deemed to simply be too cruel for use as a weapon. There are other, actually more effective, ways to kill people which do not mutilate the corpses or run afoul of the Geneva Convention, and white phosphorous simply should not be used as a munition.
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Re:Scumbags (Score:5, Interesting)
I agree that there are more effective ways of waging war but WP is but one tool in an arsenal, not the main weapon. Also, WP does not violate the Geneva Convention at all UNLESS it is used to target a civilian population. Like firebombing a city or napalming vast areas. Indiscriminate use would be illegal. But that isn't just WP, it's a LOT of things.. like land mines.
But i think what makes WP such a hot topic is Fallujah. It WAS a civilian area. The US gave ample time and warning for the population to leave safely before hand though. So everyone within the city after that point would have been considered a combatant. Even though we know that isn't true.. there will always be civilians mixed in, right? That's why the use of WP is such a big deal. If there was 100 clearly identified enemy combatants.. the Geneva Convention wouldn't bat an eye if they all burned to the ground. But because it took place in a formerly occupied city it's iffy.
It's possible WP was used as an offensive weapon in Fallujah, i don't know. But i honestly have the feeling it was not.
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Re:Scumbags (Score:5, Insightful)
Except that it is also not supposed to be used against combatants. Weapons that are considered to be exceptionally cruel or needlessly destructive of dead bodies are banned from use against all human targets... this includes WP. You aren't supposed to target (note that this provides some leeway for collateral damage and inaccurate fire) civilian populations AT ALL, even with acceptable weapons.
If you are firing WP at people, you are in violation of the Geneva Convention... it doesn't matter whether they are civilians or not.
That's not to say WP doesn't have any legitimate uses, because it does, but none of them involve killing people. It's great for destroying munitions and (unoccupied) armor, it works well for smoke screening large areas, and various other para-combat uses.
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Re:Scumbags (Score:5, Insightful)
If you are colluding with the enemy, providing them aid and shelter, you are fair game if you ask me. [...] If your city/village is providing support to the enemy, we tell you to out them or we will level your city. If you don't out them, we level your city. Once enough cities have been leveled, people will get the idea.
that particular tactic is called terrorism
18 USC 2331:
the term "international terrorism" means activities that - (A) involve violent acts or acts dangerous to human life that are a violation of the criminal laws of the United States or of any State, or that would be a criminal violation if committed within the jurisdiction of the United States or of any State; (B) appear to be intended - (i) to intimidate or coerce a civilian population; (ii) to influence the policy of a government by intimidation or coercion; or (iii) to affect the conduct of a government by mass destruction, assassination, or kidnapping;
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Re:Who's the target audience? (Score:5, Funny)
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Re:Who's the target audience? (Score:5, Interesting)
The left won't play because they don't support the war.
The right won't play because they don't want to glamorize American soldiers getting shot at.
Everyone else won't play because it's tasteless.
Um, there kids on both sides. Heck if it is really historically accurate, I could actually see it be used to teach. I haven't played FPS games in awhile, but I'm sure 1/2 of /. would play it even if they called it tasteless here.
Heck, if this was really good, I could see the military paying for it just for a training aid. Historically, the hardest part of military training is getting your average civilian where they will kill other humans on command. So in that respect, this game series could have an extremely long life span if it can take your average civilian and get them to mentally accept performing these acts.
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Re:Well so much for gamers being able to say... (Score:4, Interesting)
Like this one? [columbinegame.com]
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