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Square Enix Shuts Down Fan-Made Chrono Trigger Sequel
Posted by
Soulskill
on Tue May 12, 2009 05:35 AM
from the suspicious-timing dept.
from the suspicious-timing dept.
KIllagouge writes "Just days before the release of Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes, SquareEnix sent a Cease & Desist letter to Chrono Compendium to stop everything to do with Crimson Echoes. People might remember when they did this with Chrono Resurrection. Seems to be the growing trend; instead of listening to their fans, which would net them even more money, game developers continue to lock down old gaming IP. A copy of the C&D letter is available online."
The fan project had been in development since 2004 and was 98% complete.
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Submission: SquareEnix sends C&D to fan made sequal. by Anonymous Coward
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They're trying to prevent people from pirating (Score:5, Insightful)
So I looked at the fan-made sequel... it's a ROM hack. Not that I really have anything against such modifications, they do encourage people to pirate the game (search Google for a ROM, get the game illegally!), especially since hardware to legitimately dump the ROM images are expensive and rare enough that it's unlikely even the mod authors have them.
Square Enix has quite a legitimate case here and I understand it much better than if they shut down a project making a game from scratch (eg, a typical PC game).
Re-making from scratch : Why not, actually ? (Score:5, Interesting)
Square Enix has quite a legitimate case here and I understand it much better than if they shut down a project making a game from scratch (eg, a typical PC game).
I don't know well this peculiar ROM hack. But from the length of development time for the project and from the description (Same cast going into completely new adventures), I'm under the impression that they have almost completely redone a new game, creating new characters, writing new dialogues, etc...
Their only problem seems that they slapped all these new assets on the original engine as found in the ROM - the code and the sprites of the original cast are maybe the only thing left.
Given all the work already poured into the project, they could try to keep only the newly created assets.
Perhaps, if the ROM hack is as big as the delay and the information on the website let us think, it won't be that much complicated to remove the latest bit that tie the game to Square Enyx franchise :
- change the trademarked names
- create new sprites for the main cast
- use another engine. Preferably an open source one which is provably free of any S.E. content and can be audited. There are lots of open-source turn-based RPG engine. Given the popularity of Chrono Trigger, probably a couple of them can be configured to be close to that game's mechanics.
This will probably add another 2 years of development. But if this time S.E.'s lawyers clearly state what exactly caused the C&D letter and to what extent modification need to be made to make the project IP-law compliant, then the past 4-5 years that went into developing this will still give a result that the fan community will be able to enjoy.
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
To nitpick: why would you link to the section on United States law?
As CmdrTaco wrote [slashdot.org]: "Slashdot is run by Americans, after all, and the vast majority of our readership is in the U.S." Besides, the minimum copyright term across all WTO members (life plus 50 years) is still long enough that Atari 2600 games will probably stay copyrighted for the rest of your life.
Chronocompendium.com is a U.S. site (Score:4, Informative)
But that doesn't mean that when we are discussing a non-US topic, that US law is somehow automatically applicable!
Nor did it mean that we were even discussing a non-US topic. WHOIS says the domain is registered to a proxy company based in Scottsdale, Arizona, USA. And Netcraft's report [netcraft.com] says the site is hosted in the United States.
Parent
Re:They're trying to prevent people from pirating (Score:4, Funny)
Also, all works of fan fiction and fanart must die. Not because of IP laws, just cause they suck.
You are George R. R. Martin, and I claim my 5 pounds.
Parent
Are these people stupid? (Score:5, Insightful)
Step 1: Find Copyrighted work
Step 2: Create derivative work without appropriate agreements/contracts
Step 3: Get sent cease and deist letter
Come on guys, wake up. This is someone else's work, you obviously misjudged the company you are dealing with. Why not start something from scratch, so that you don't end up in a situation like this.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Step 1: Find Copyrighted work Step 2: Create derivative work without appropriate agreements/contracts Step 3: Get sent cease and deist letter
Come on guys, wake up. This is someone else's work, you obviously misjudged the company you are dealing with. Why not start something from scratch, so that you don't end up in a situation like this.
This isn't some company stealing IP and creating a franchise. This isn't even a group of people attempting to destroy or dilute Square's market. CT:CE was simply an attempt by fans to continue the (arguably) deceased storyline that they loved.
Fan bases creating not-for-profit derivative works have created, sustained, and/or resurrected numerous corporate franchises, enough so that there's plenty of precedent of intelligent companies taking note of such behavior, supporting and encouraging it (World of Warcr
It's a ROM hack (Score:5, Informative)
Replace X characters with new Y characters.
Is it still infringement?
Yes. It's a ROM hack, meaning that it uses most of the same computer program as the original game. Putting new characters in a non-free program doesn't make it not a non-free program.
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
It's been reverse-engineered. Isn't that supposed to be legal?
When reverse engineering a cartridge format was ruled legal (Sega v. Accolade), the end result didn't contain more than a tiny amount of the original work: an init routine of (IIRC) 32 bytes or less. In this case, the copied game program is several orders of magnitude bigger than that.
Re:It's a ROM hack (Score:4, Informative)
Changing up notes in a song makes it a new copyrighted work
Citation needed. If the new work is substantially similar to the old work in ways not inherent in the work's genre, it infringes.
Parent
So well-timed. (Score:5, Interesting)
It always seems the "IP"-holder sends a cease and desist letter when the project is nearly done, almost like they want to cause as much pain as possible to the people trying to remake something.
What frustrates me most is that these projects then aren't worked on to completion and then simply distributed by anonymous torrents, working for several years on something and then getting cut off at the last minute is simply a dick move.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Fishined product would be too obvious show of no "cease and desist" happening, regardless of how anonymous torrent would be.
As far as last-minute letters go, I think that publishers do not want to cause pointless damage (most such projects never take off so it is pointless to scout for them and send letters asap - that leaves big that of pissed people who now have target to point at "look, our project was great and we had skill and determination to pull it off, but these evil guys stopped us.", same people
Re:So well-timed. (Score:5, Interesting)
Or maybe they really did just find out about it. I'm an avid gamer and identify as a 'core gamer' and 'RPG fanatic', yet I'd never heard of this project or group. Is it really that hard to believe they hadn't heard about it either?
Don't forget that the longer a project has existed, and the closer it gets to completion, the more noise is made about it. Fans start talking more, devs start showing it off, etc, etc.
Parent
Re:So well-timed. (Score:4, Insightful)
Parent
Re:So well-timed. (Score:5, Insightful)
Conversely, why should a project wait until the last minute to get all the rights and permissions in order to produce a product, free or not, that derives from a company's trademarks and copyrights?
Parent
Re:So well-timed. (Score:5, Interesting)
The timing of this does indeed make Square Enix look just about as callous as they could possibly look.
This is only a personal anecdote -- get enough of them and maybe you can call them data -- but back when they were still Squaresoft, they weren't like this. As an intermediate-level student of Japanese in college, I translated a large amount of dialogue and other material for games of theirs that never got any release outside Japan, and put the stuff on my web site. When Square found out about it, they invited me to interview with them, paying what was to me an insane amount of money to get me to their offices and meet the staff.
I didn't get chosen to be a translator -- and there's no shame at all in losing out to the genius that is Alexander O. Smith -- but it was a great thrill for an ordinary undergraduate like myself, and at no time did they ever issue any stern warnings about putting my translations into ROMs, or selling anything I'd created; they were interested in what my abilities could do for them, not in stamping out the creative force of their fans.
I'm surprised -- well, maybe not anymore -- that these modders didn't get better treatment from the game maker that they so admire, and that the significant abilities they demonstrated in making this hack were, it seems, totally ignored. Instead, the Big Corporation sat on its hands for five years watching these fans work their magic, then dropped the hammer, giving them five days to unconditionally surrender to their demands. And without even the courtesy of putting an individual person in position to answer possible questions and arguments from the Compendium! No, SE just left a generic phone number, and no name, at the bottom of a legally-binding letter. They couldn't have been more insulting if they'd tried.
I'm still a little unclear about how the North American branch of SE is involved in this -- the game was made by Squaresoft in Japan, and the only thing added to it by the North American team is the translation, none of which, obviously, is being used in a fan-made game with a totally new script. The copyrighted material that's being "borrowed" was made in Japan, where doujin material is a standard part of game/manga fandom. I know things are looking bleak for the Compendium, but I wonder if an appeal to Square Enix KK (Japan) might save the project. The way things are now, it certainly couldn't hurt.
Parent
But of course... (Score:5, Insightful)
... they only had it shut down because they are developing their own sequel, right?
Right?
No? Yeah, that's what I thought too.
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
They have no intention of making another Chrono sequel.
So what? That doesn't allow someone to take their non-free assets and do with it as they please.
The ROM hacking community is nearly all diehard fans. Pissing them off does not sound like a good way to do business.
And the ROM hacking community probably makes up a hugely small fraction of game buyers so I really doubt Square Enix could even care less.
This decision will certainly make me think twice before buying a Square-Enix game new.
I'm sure they are quaking in their boots over that.
Re:But of course... (Score:4, Insightful)
I'm sure they are quaking in their boots over that.
Maybe they should be, if the GP was previously a regular purchaser of Square-Enix products. If a company's core audience suddenly turns on it, that company would be in a lot of trouble. Brand is everything, and if this move by Square tarnishes their corporate brand in the eyes of those who purchase their products, they may find that protecting the Chrono Trigger properties will cost them far more than they ever anticipated.
Parent
It does make sense (Score:5, Interesting)
They have a DS version of Chrono Trigger that was first released at the end of 2008, and is still fairly "new" around the world. If people download the original ROM in order to hack it, or through CT:Crimson Echoes find out that they can easily play CT for free, the DS version might lose those potential sales.
Personally, I think the value of free advertisement and brand recognition that CT:CE would have given Square Enix would outweigh this. I also believe those people who buy the DS version do so for other reasons, such as portability. But I do see where Square Enix is coming from, and why they chose to stop the project now.
Let's just trust Square Enix... (Score:3, Insightful)
...after all, they did release their own 3D remake of Chrono Trigger after they shut down Chrono Ressurection.... right?
Oh, yeah, they didn't.
And we probably won't see a Chrono sequel either. Ever since they simply gave up on the "Chrono Break" trademark, I'm pretty much convinced that the franchise does not interest them anymore. Not enough to work on it beyond releasing ports.
Re:Let's just trust Square Enix... (Score:4, Insightful)
Truth be told Chrono cross sales probaly disappointed, Chrono Cross (spiritual successor to chrono trigger) was not a real sequel and did not feature anyone from the original cast really. Truth be told Chrono Trigger is a classic game how anyone could fuck up a sequel is anyone's guess but square managed to make it too different in many ways, even though it was an alright game.
Parent
So... (Score:5, Insightful)
Where's the torrent?
Keeping it secret? (Score:3, Insightful)
I understand the need for people to show off their hard work. In this case however; they could have easily kept it internal/quiet, until the mod was released.
Once out in the open C&D letters aren't even worth the time for a lawyer to write them up.
Will this(among many others) start a trend of keeping these mods/hacks secret to avoid C&D letters?
Of course in a perfect world SE could have offered them a big fat check for all the new material.
So don't have an address (Score:3, Interesting)
Then, let the bastards stew. They can send C&D letters to the entire population of Western Europe, what does it get them?
I can't believe that they spent all that effort developing this game and didn't do so in a way that would let them, at the least, try to stay undetectable.
Better idea (Score:5, Insightful)
Why doesn't Square Enix hire the developers and license it? If it is 98% complete, and it is decent, then it seems like everybody wins.
Pride (Score:4, Funny)
The kid is making his old man proud. You're not a true programmer unless you get some letter from some lawyer before you turn 21.
Re:Nonsequitor in the summary (Score:5, Insightful)
No, not at all. Your handle is indeed apt, sir.
The argument is that a merchandise so popular fans make unofficial sequels is one that you can easily produce titles for and sell them to make money.
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
The argument could be that this is a ROM mod. Aka you need to download the game (likely illegally) to play it.
I wonder if it'd be different if it had a separate engine, or would they send a C&D letter for that too? Hmm... they probably would.
So where can I buy a SNES copier? (Score:4, Informative)
I'd wager that most of the people interested in this project do already own a legal copy of Chrono Trigger for either SNES or Playstation.
But they probably do not own the equipment to copy their Super NES cartridges to the PC. Per UMG v. MP3.com, owning a lawfully made copy doesn't entitle you to download another copy elsewhere.
Parent
Re:Nonsequitor in the summary (Score:5, Insightful)
Yes... Square Enix should listen to their fans and release sequel with a crono x Magus love story! Heck there's plenty of relationships in the fanfics they could choose from. Frog x robo!
Just because fans want something doesn't mean you should do it . Yes Square could easily show off a cheaply made Chrono Trigger 2 for the DS and it would sell a ton of copies. However it would cheapen the brand unless it's a stellar game and they'd lose most goodwill to it.
Likewise giving fan made games like this a nod cheapens the brand.
It's not easy handling cult classics. You try to cash in on them and you just end up killing the goose that laid the golden egg.
Look at Lucas Art's reputation for making games in the 90's. Look at their reputation now.
Parent
Re:Nonsequitor in the summary (Score:5, Insightful)
And he's saying that argument does not have any logical/statistical/whatever evidence to back it up, thus making it an empty opinion.
Any idea how much an original Chrono Trigger fetches? Do you know how many people bought it originally (SNES)... the second time (PSX)... and the third time (DS)?
Then there's Chrono Cross. Care to take a shot at how many purchased that game? It made the "Best Seller" reprint list.
Square-Enix could make a king's fortune selling a third Chrono game. They know this... we've been begging (literally) for another Chrono game. But no... S-E is too busy milking the Final Fantasy cow to really care. Who wants a turn-based RPG anymore? It's all about the flashy graphics and real-time combat.
By the by, S-E, how's that mumorpurger of yours going?
Put simply, if they released another one, we'd buy it in a heartbeat (well, maybe not so much now). We don't make fangames or listen to symphony orchestras perform the music of those games because we hate 'em...
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
Great, what does that have to do with the profitability of fan made mods?
Mother 3.
Any idea how many copies would sell if the fan mod were sold officially in cartridge format? I'd buy it at 50 bucks and not think twice. Millions would.
Wherever there is demand, there is money to be made. There are no exceptions.
Re:Nonsequitor in the summary (Score:5, Insightful)
Sadly, that's the same thing people said about a Firefly movie, and yet...
There is a long and storied tradition of a huge fan upswell convincing a company to put for money on a project only for it to fail due to lack of actual sales when the time comes.
Parent
Re:Nonsequitor in the summary (Score:4, Insightful)
Sadly, that's the same thing people said about a Firefly movie, and yet...
No hate to the fans, but Firefly is a bit of a niche story vying for space between the Treks, Wars, Battlestars and countless other sci-fi stories (I actually liked Space: Above and Beyond... I now don my fireproof asbestos lined fire suit).
Chrono Trigger is considered to be one of the greatest video games ever made. It constantly makes it into the single digits on "$WEBSITE'S Top 100 List". You can buy CT complete, or for roughly the same money go buy an Xbox360 (but who would do that?).
To a game enthusiast, Chrono Trigger is in a totally different league. There's very little you can compare it to.
Parent
Re:Nonsequitor in the summary (Score:5, Insightful)
Why don't we put it this way: Chrono Trigger was more popular than Fallout. The sequel to Chrono Trigger was more popular than Fallout 2. We can reasonably assume that the sequel to the sequel to Chrono Trigger would be at least as popular as Fallout 3... which was a massive release.
You're arguing that Chrono Trigger is in a niche, like Firefly. He's arguing that it is a massively popular mainstream title. As somebody who was actually alive when CT first came out (which I do not suspect you were), I assure you that it wasn't a game only your nerdy friends had heard of. A CT sequel would sell like a Pokemon sequel or a new FF, despite your assertion it would sell like Wild Arms.
Parent
Re:Nonsequitor in the summary (Score:4, Interesting)
No, I'm arguing that just because something was popular and still has some fans doesn't automaticly mean that it'll make money today.
And P.S. chief, my younger siblings cut their teeth on Combat catridges [atariage.com], so save the "oh you just aren't old enough to appreciate it" crap. I've been around long enough to see this story more than once, especially in the video game arena.
Can you make money on a revival product for a old favorite? Hell yes. Is it a sure thing? Fuck no. And stop pretending it is simply because you want it to be.
Fans != sure money.
Jumping into a project "just because they fans demand it" is stupid thing to do. Start a project when you have something to put into it, not just to milk it for the last dregs of money you can. And a fan mod isn't "something to put into it".
Parent
Re: By the by, S-E, how's that mumorpurger going? (Score:4, Insightful)
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:Nonsequitor in the summary (Score:4, Insightful)
A dedicated cult fanbase does not automatically mean that it's a marketable audience. It does not take many fans to make a fan game, especially if they aren't shooting for commercial polish.
Parent
Re:Never heard of them (Score:5, Informative)
Never heard of them
I can make do without their game. Can they make do without my money?
So far, so good.
Parent
Re:Never heard of them (Score:4, Interesting)
No it doesn't. Practically no company tries to be everything to everyone and for good reason. When a company is looking to expand its customer base it will focus its effort on a couple customer demographics that it believes make sense (safe bet is people who haven't even heard of S-E, but are willing to boycott them over this isn't one of them).
Parent
Re:Odd decision (Score:4, Insightful)
The difference in that is that Valve officially released dev tools and gave people permission to develop mods.
Most console games expressly forbid modification.
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
No, but now they don't have a choice because it looks like THIS group actually followed through.
Kind of like "Why kill it if it's already going to die" vs "Oh shit! It got better."
IANAL, etc...
Re:Unfortunate (Score:5, Insightful)
Off the top of my head without much thought:
Doom, Quake, Quake II, Quake 3, Half-life, Total Annihilation, Supreme Commander, Civ 4, Dawn of War, Company of Heroes, Battlefield 1942, World of Warcraft, STALKER, Oblivion, Morrowind, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Unreal Tournament (all) , Rainbow 6 (all), Warcraft III, The Sims
I'm sure if I put my mind to it I could come up with another hundred or so. While with some games the availability of mods is just a bit of icing on the cake of a good game with others like Neverwinter Nights or Oblivion the mods form a massive part of the experience.
Adventures created by the modding community kept NWN alive for years after release, paving the way for the sequel to be the success that it was. The Elder Scrolls games have also always had a very active modding community and knowing that when Oblivion came out made all the difference. Knowing that you can customise a game to your playing style, or that it will last months opposed to days due to player made maps and modifications can really sell a game. As well as extending the life of sales past the first couple of weeks after release.
Parent
Re:Unfortunate (Score:4, Informative)
Here's fourteen titles off the top of my head: Half-Life, Neverwinter Nights, Quake, Doom, Unreal, The Sims, Spore, Elder Scrolls, Civilization, Fallout 3, Bard's Tale, Lode Runner, Boulder Dash and Raid on Bungling Bay.
Some of those titles can be broken down into additional individual games (for example, The Sims was a significantly different game from The Sims 2, especially from a modding perspective) so this list could be expanded quite a bit. Some of them make modding a necessary part of their structure (Spore) and others wouldn't have garnered any attention at all if not for their mod tools (Raid on Bungling Bay) and others have just been outright owned by the mod community (Doom). And it's worth noting that even this short list of games represents a substantial portion of the entire market for video games on personal computers. The Sims and Half-Life alone have sold more games than the rest of the top ten list put together [wikipedia.org], and that includes World of Warcraft.
So, yes, modding is a significant factor in the success of "a lot" of great games on the PC.
Parent
Re:Patch? (Score:5, Interesting)
How would that work when the patch differences are original creations? A derived work must contain some element from the original, and these patch files would not contain such. The patch files alone in a vaccuum, would be copyrighted by their respective authors, which in this case are the mod developers.
Patch modifications are legally sold everywhere for all sorts of products. If I wrote a set of instructions for how to turn your NES console into an x86 PC, I'm not violating your copyright because my instructions constitute an original piece of work. http://www.instructables.com/id/Build-a-Nintendo-NES-PC/ [instructables.com]
I think the real issue here is how these mod developers went about announcing their work. They were loud and proud. Big mistake. Going by their page, they made it very confusing as to what they were distributing and who owns what and what's official and what's not. The liberal use of Square Enix trademarks was also a bad idea. Posting trailer videos on Youtube with title lines blurring ownership was an even worse idea. A boring link to a boring file share to a boring ASCII patch file named "CE.2009.patch" on a boring fan message board would have been the way to go.
These guys got slapped with a C&D because they were conducting business like kids jumping in a puddle splattering mud all over the place. Square Enix was forced to assert their non-association with these guys as well as continue to assert their ownership. The way I see it, they had no choice.
Parent