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Wal-Mart Enters the Used Game Fray
Posted by
Soulskill
on Mon May 18, 2009 11:54 PM
from the publishers-must-be-thrilled dept.
from the publishers-must-be-thrilled dept.
eldavojohn writes "It's a simple model — you buy used games for a third of the price of a new one from patrons. Then you turn around and sell the game for two-thirds the normal price to other patrons that have not yet enjoyed the title. Such has been the model for stores like GameStop. The great part about that business is a recession can sometimes help their market, as gamers look to save a few bucks any way possible. Well, today Wal-Mart launched kiosks in 77 of its stores that vend used video games. Looking like a RedBox DVD kiosk, these automated machines are full of bugs, but spell trouble for businesses like GameStop. This should also pique the interest of used-game opponents and provide a bigger target for them to go after if they get the politicians on their side."
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How Politics Interacts With Games 81 comments
Crispy Gamer sat down with Hal Halpin, president of the Entertainment Consumer Association, and had him explain how the games industry interacts with various aspects of the government, such as lobbying efforts, the supreme court, and particular politicians. A related editorial suggests some things President Elect Obama can do to bring change to the industry. "We also need to rein in the used games market and not with DRM. It is fundamentally unfair that developers are being robbed of profits for work that they've done. If the ESA will not offer a mandate, then we'll need the government to do so. Publishers and developers should be entitled to at least half of the price from the sale of every used game." Kotaku has a response which points out flaws in the author's arguments.
[+]
Used Game Market Affecting Price, Quality of New Titles 384 comments
Gamasutra is running a feature discussing the used game market with various developers and analysts. The point has been raised by many members of the industry that used game sales are hurting developers and publishers even more lately, when they're already beleaguered by rising piracy rates and a struggling economy. Atari executives recently commented that used game sales are "extremely painful," while GameStop's CEO unsurprisingly came out in support of resales. We've recently discussed a few of the ways game designers are considering to limit used game sales. David Braben, chairman of UK-based developer Frontier Development had this to say: "Five years ago, a great game would have sold for a longer period of time than for a bad game — which was essentially our incentive to make great games. But no longer. Now publishers and developers just see revenue the initial few weeks regardless of the game's quality and then gamers start buying used copies which generates money that goes into GameStop's pocket, nobody else's."
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Bigger target? (Score:3, Interesting)
This should also pique the interest of used-game opponents and provide a bigger target for them to go after if they get the politicians on their side."
I have the feeling that even the likes of Blizzard or Electronic Arts would think twice about giving Wal-Mart a hard time.
Re:Bigger target? (Score:4, Informative)
Parent
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Blizzard, almost exclusively, makes computer games that have CD keys which make them nearly impossible to resell. Once someone registers their game, especially with their new battle.net system, no one else can use that key.
One of many reasons I don't buy into anything Blizzard is selling.
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The set of companies that have games to sell is larger than just Blizzard.
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Does walmart know this....most EBGames geeks might...but the regular counter clerk at Walmart is far from a geek.. unless they force someone to review purchases before they happen...they might get stuck with people selling their wow accounts for more then they r worth.
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A ~$7-10 billion/yr indust
Excellent (Score:5, Insightful)
Excellent. With Walmart now financially committed to reducing the amount of DRM that would interfere in resale, the amount of anti-DRM political lobbying money should increase dramatically.
Re:Excellent (Score:5, Interesting)
Except its only for consoles, which means the DRM wont be an issue. The summary should specify that it is console only, but it doesn't.
Parent
Re:Excellent (Score:5, Insightful)
Except its only for consoles, which means the DRM wont be an issue.
There's been some rumblings from console devs that they're wanting to put DRM on it to prevent used sales. Seems they're convinced that somehow, because they only profit once, that's unfair if the game trades hands again. You know, just like how car manufacturers couldn't survive if people bought used cars.
Parent
Re:Excellent (Score:4, Insightful)
Yes, but that's not the RIAA's problem either. Their lawyers just claim it is.
However, if GM were to cry foul on used car sales, everyone and their mother would jump on them.
Parent
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There's been some rumblings from console devs that they're wanting to put DRM on it to prevent used sales. Seems they're convinced that somehow, because they only profit once, that's unfair if the game trades hands again. You know, just like how car manufacturers couldn't survive if people bought used cars.
I'm surprised that nobody at GM has yet thought to blame used cars sales for their recent debacle. Or why Freddie and Fannie didn't blame realters for their near-collapse. [sarcasm] Because nothing destroys a business like the selling of used goods! [/sarcasm]
Thanks, Wal-Mart! (Score:3, Informative)
If you agree that GameStop is bad for gaming, then this isn't really worse. I don't think Wal-Mart doing it is going to increase the overall trade in used games. If you don't agree that GameStop is bad for gaming, then you don't care about this move anyway.
As such, I'm actually quite happy to hear the news simply because I hope they kick GameStop's ass. I don't buy games from them, but I've read enough of the Penny Arcade to completely [penny-arcade.com] loathe [penny-arcade.com] them [penny-arcade.com] . [penny-arcade.com]
Re:Thanks, Wal-Mart! (Score:4, Funny)
And I have read enough of your post to loathe them too.
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
Game stop is bad for used gaming. I wont buy anything at Gamestop or Eb games. They anally rape everyone on their used game prices.
Every used game I buy is on Amazon.com as I can get it , including shipping for at least 35% less than gamestop is selling it at. Most of the time it's 50% less than gamestop's lowest price.
It's ridiculous, If I bring them a like new game they give me maybe 5 bucks and then they slap a sticker on it and ask $48.90 for it. I sell it for $30.00 on Amazon.com I'll have it sol
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Above all, from a webcomic with no references and no legitimate claim against the group in question.
It isn't a good source for forming opinions, except when we're talking about something as trivial as corporate loyalty (which we are). Also, no legitimate claim? Their criticisms, while not as well referenced as a wikipedia page, are legitimate. Gamestop DOES DO THOSE THINGS. And they are annoying.
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What's annoying about buying and selling second hand games?
Old used games are awesome. (Score:2, Interesting)
Having a place to buy older games like PS1 or SuperNES games is valuable to the gaming community. Places that sell games you can't buy anymore! Our local video store sells these games for $2-$5. Sometimes they are scratched but you don't feel rippe
Re: (Score:2, Informative)
Many older games from the 8-bit and 16-bit era are actually quite difficult. Try the first Mega Man on the NES, for example. Or Shinobi for the Sega Master System.
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Except the older games are incredibly easy and you end up feeling stupid for taking two weeks to wrap it the first time.
Do it without save states, and writhe in the eternal fire that is "Nintendo Hard!"
So Wal-Mart's getting a bit long in the tooth? (Score:2)
I guess they had to get in while they still could, but with digital distribution being the future whats the point in conquering a business model that has possibly peaked? Then again it is only costing them kiosk space and electricity, I'm sure RedBox is paying for much of the hardware. Still, it sounds like Wally World is getting a little slow or at least complacent given that they have conquered much of the US.
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I don't see (official) online distribution pushing out hard copies for awhile yet, and that goes double for consoles (which is what this story is about).
The primary item is the available connectivity and the sheer size of modern games. For example, I'll take fallout 3, disc size, 5.52GB. Taking a standard fare 768kbps connection, that's about 16 hours. Compared to 1 hour (or less) for me to drive to town, buy the game, and come home. And don't forget that 5.52GB comes out of the ever so trendy transfer
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I don't see (official) online distribution pushing out hard copies for awhile yet, and that goes double for consoles (which is what this story is about).
I see WiiWare and Xbox Live Arcade. Or are you talking about the respective 40 and 250 MB limits of those offerings?
variety? (Score:2)
Does this mean wal-mart will start carrying games that aren't hunting simulations? Deer Hunter, Deer Hunter 2, Deer Hunter 3 is about their entire stock of PC games.
I exaggerate, but not by much. What's up with the poor selection?
I barely buy used games anymore (Score:2)
I'm always looking to save some bucks, as the money I can spend on games each year is limited due to the lack of a job. However, I don't do it by buying used games. I wait for the price to go down, and for promotions.
Ever since I got a Wii, and am planning to buy a DS Lite, I've been buying lots of games at half the price or even less as older games for those systems I have
Good luck with that. (Score:2)
With Steam infesting every game that comes out nowadays forcing you to tie a game to an account and forcing you to activate online for the sole purpose of killing the second hand market off I'm guessing this'll be a fairly short lived venture for PC games at least.
Still it's not a bad idea for the console market and I guess that's where most money is now in this anyway?
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No problem here. If you plan to resell the game, make another steam account just for this game and go for it. You could even easily sell it on EBay, all you have to do is transfer the account data to the buyer, he can download it from Steam, no need to send the media.
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I guess it depends how many games you have, but having one e-mail address per game is a bit over the top, people really shouldn't have to deal with that.
Also, afaik, as part of the EULA you're not allowed to sell on or allow accounts to change hands, so Valve can also easily get eBay to pull such auctions, it also prevents you selling to places like Walmart etc. because they wont deal with this sort of thing.
Where's the problem? (Score:5, Insightful)
IMHO game publishers are coming at this from the wrong angle - they should be looking at the second hand market as an opportunity rather than a threat. Over the last year or two there has been a growing trend for games to have paid-for DLC (see Guitar Hero/Rock Band as prime examples). Since this content doesn't get resold when the game does the new owner may well then re-buy the DLC.
So although yes they might miss out on the profit from the original game sale (assuming that the person who bought it second hand would otherwise have bought a new copy) they ARE still making money.
Also don't forget trade ins - many console owners I know (myself included) will trade old games for money off new ones, often allowing us to buy more NEW games then we would have done otherwise. Why not embrace this? Publishers could offer incentives if people trade in one their older games for a sequel, or a direct competitor to their game - say trading in Guitar Hero for Rock Band etc.
When the music market changed under them (i.e. the internet) the industry tried to fight the change rather than embracing it as a new opportunity, that didn't work out too well did it?
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Also don't forget trade ins - many console owners I know (myself included) will trade old games for money off new ones, often allowing us to buy more NEW games then we would have done otherwise. Why not embrace this?
I'm not taking any side here, but I think the way they'd look at it is as follows. Some person goes and spends $40 buying a used game. In exchange, the store skims off $20 and passes the other $20 to you so that you have an additional $20 to invest in the new games market. However, if the used market didn't exist, presumably that person would only buy games 2/3 as often (as he'd have to spend $60 each time instead of $40) but it would be invested in the new games market. Granted you'd also only buy your new
Response to the bug issues and further details (Score:2)
This post [arstechnica.com] has a response to the reported bug issues as well as some further information about how the trade-in process works.
Won't happen in Florida (Score:2)
Due to ludicrous Florida laws, all new used media stores are to be treated as pawn shops. In other words, you have to fill out paperwork and, I believe, give a thumb print to be able to trade in a videogame...
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Don't be so negative. This could be the first step in undoing that idiocy. After all, we know how much Tallahassee just luuuuuurvs WalMart
Two Thirds? Really? (Score:4, Informative)
Two thirds of the price? In what gamestop? If you're lucky, you'll get a whole $10 off of the game is still retailing at release price.
Otherwise, you're getting $5 off retail until the game is so old its out of print and everyone who wants it has it so they're overloaded, when you can get it for $2.99... Yay Jak and Daxter!
Re:People still buy used games? (Score:4, Insightful)
Your logic is like a half-baked cake. I suppose printing your own copies of books from the library is ok too, cause you aren't paying anything to look at the book anyways right?
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
Well, in this case you might as well send the $45 to The Pirate Bay, rather than Walmart, as the publisher and game developers won't see a cent of it anyway.
Re: (Score:2, Interesting)
I'm not saying it's ok. I'm just saying I would rather as a book publisher have you save your limited resources to spend on one of my books instead of going to a used book store and spending money there.
75% of the used game price disappears into Gamestop. As far as the game ecosystem is concerned that money is gone. Your customers are expending their limited teen dollars on a product that in no way what so ever brings a profit.
If instead of buying and reselling 2 games these teens pirated those 2 games a
Re: (Score:2, Insightful)
I'm just saying I would rather as a book publisher have you save your limited resources to spend on one of my books instead of going to a used book store and spending money there.
75% of the used game price disappears into Gamestop. As far as the game ecosystem is concerned that money is gone. Your customers are expending their limited teen dollars on a product that in no way what so ever brings a profit.
If instead of buying and reselling 2 games these teens pirated those 2 games and simply purchased a third new the publisher would make more money than if they threw their money into the big bonfire that is the used game market.
And I would love everyone of you to send me all your money without anything whatsoever in return.
Used games are part of the game ecosystem. The limited teen dollars might not be spent on a 60$ new game without the option to get some of that money back to begin wtih. So you'd end up with 3 pirated games and no sale at all. Sounds much better to me. At least publishers still would have something to bitch about. Oh and it's not their fault ... ever.
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This is actually getting fairly close to just ignoring copyright and seeing it more directly as a matter of rewarding creators for their work. Copyright exists to "promote the progress of science and useful arts", and insofar as the way it works in the current world leads to some of these weird results, one solution is what you propose: ignore the legal rules of copyright, and instead try to honestly think of how to allocate your money to benefit the creators. However, this requires a level of honesty that
Re:People still buy used games? (Score:5, Insightful)
I don't buy used games on principle. (Wait... so I'm paying someone for a game and simultaneously not giving the content creators any money? Why not just pirate it and spend more money on new games if I'm not going to pay the creators?)
But even if I wasn't against the concept of used games I still don't see the financial incentive. Gamestop will pay me less than the parking fee to go in and sell them a game. If I were to drive to a free-parking gamestop it would cost more in gas than they would give me. The used prices of new games tend to be almost the same as new. ~$45-50 for new releases and games on steam tend to be priced as low or lower for older games.
If you aren't going to buy it new you might as well just pirate it and save the money going to Wal-Mart.
By giving money to someone who purchases new games, you are providing them with more resources to purchase more new games, and support new content creators. Or to put it another way, would you buy a car that you knew would have no value on the used car market? Auto companies like good resale value, so that one guy will buy a new car every year.
Also, if you save up a few games, it might just cover your parking. And give you cash for a new game. (Which is the point)
Parent
Re: (Score:2)
What principle is that? The principle of irrational consumer? I know lots of people will buy a game new knowing that there will be a used market for it later when they're done.
Re:People still buy used games? (Score:4, Insightful)
Wait... so I'm paying someone for a game and simultaneously not giving the content creators any money?
If they make games that are good enough that people don't want to sell them back, this wouldn't be happening to them.
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
I don't really agree with this point. It makes sense for multiplayer games, but a lot of single-player games (like films and TV shows) are very enjoyable to play once, but become less enjoyable when you play them again. Given the choice between playing them twice, or playing them once and then playing another similar-quality game once, the second is more fun. Think of them like books and DVDs; lots of people buy these and sell them second-hand because they never watch a film or read a book twice.
Even
Re:People still buy used games? (Score:5, Insightful)
Parent
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Sorry, but that's silly. It IS the same thing. I do know many people who (sadly, imo) buy a new car every year and sell the old one. I also know a lot of people who refuse to ever buy new cars because of the high cost and the risk of investing in a untried technology.
The resale value of cars is higher than games because the cost of flipping an item is relatively fixed. You have to pay a kid minimum wage (or more) to spend half an hour per used game receiving and stocking it. The cost of storing it as c
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I wouldn't say all resale markets are identical, but they all function. Just like books and cds and cassette tapes, the game market functions fine.
If anything it encourages the opposite of what you claim - "blockbusters" are games that flood the resale market, with more profits to resellers. By making smaller niche titles, it's harder to find those titles on the resale market, and the publisher can sleep at night knowing that no one else is profiting from the game after he does.
Just like I lie awake every
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
I don't buy used games on principle. (Wait... so I'm paying someone for a game and simultaneously not giving the content creators any money? Why not just pirate it and spend more money on new games if I'm not going to pay the creators?)
Except that when you buy used your money IS going to the creator (or at least his publisher). It goes to the publisher by proxy of the original purchaser who may not have considered the original selling price to be reasonable without the ability to resell it and recoup some of that cost. Similarly for all additional sales on down the line until the game eventually ends up in somebody's trash can.
But even if I wasn't against the concept of used games I still don't see the financial incentive. Gamestop will pay me less than the parking fee to go in and sell them a game.
Even if your characterization of Gamestop's pricing is accurate, they are by no means the only way to buy and s
Re: (Score:2)
Then make a game that I don't want to sell. Simple as that.
Civilisation II, would I sell it? Let's assume for a second I'd still get a buck for it, I wouldn't! I want to play that game again, over and over, from time to time. The replay value is stunning, even though it's essentially the same game again over and over, but still, it's fun to just dig it up and play. There are often months between sessions because, well, its new car smell is off, but it's still fun.
Master of Orion II, same deal. From time to
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Pending legislation change, that is... don't assume anything that's legal today will remain so, especially when copyright is somehow involved.
Bad News In The Long Run (Score:2)
In this model it's more difficult to resell a game, since game access is provided as a service of your account. Moreover, the companies can restrict reuse by offering access to certain content only via their servers.