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Why Natal Is a Big Deal
Posted by
Soulskill
on Fri Jun 12, 2009 07:04 AM
from the things-to-combine-with-a-vr-headset dept.
from the things-to-combine-with-a-vr-headset dept.
Kikizo has an editorial piece evaluating the Xbox 360's upcoming motion-control scheme, Project Natal, and discussing why it's a bigger step forward for interactive gaming than many people think. Quoting: "[Natal] accurately perceives players in 3D space, simultaneously tracking over 48 joints on your body, enabling it to accurately redraw your skeleton in real time as you move about. On a separate 'debug screen' in the closed-doors session, we could witness for ourselves the 'mind's eye' of Natal, visually showing how it completely understands where we are, how we're moving, where we are in 3D space, how far in front of my face my hand is, whatever. It can supposedly even track individual hand and finger movement when it switches into this more finely-tuned mode. ... There is a surprising feeling of tactility and iPhone-like fluidity and precision to the way Natal works." Another interesting bit of news about Natal is that Wii-hacker Johnny Chung Lee is part of the development team. We've discussed some of his creations in the past.
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Hardware: Wiimote as Multi-Touch Display Controller 107 comments
Tmack writes "While hard-hacks with the Wiimote are somewhat old news, this particular implementation is quite interesting. Using the infrared camera on the Wiimote, pens with LEDs instead of ink, and an LCD projector, Johnny Chung Lee of Carnegie Mellon University has created software to use them as a (relatively) cheap multi-touch display. Any surface onto which you can project becomes an interactive multi-touch display, as demonstrated in the video at the link. He has the software available for download, along with some other neat projects.
Lee has also documented another impressive Wiimote hack.
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Hardware: Head Tracking w/ the Wiimote 169 comments
mrneutron2003 writes "This guy just doesn't know when to stop. Johnny Chung Lee graces us with yet another one of his inventive Wiimote projects. This time it involves using the Wiimote and a pair of inexpensive LED safety goggles (with the standard LED's replaced with InfraRed ones) to allow positional head tracking , achieving an effect similar to what is experienced with three dimensional displays and CAVE systems. The video dramatically illustrates the effect. Game developers take note. This simple little variation on infrared tracking could allow for some seriously immersive gameplay in the future." This guy deserves a medal.
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The Fall and Rise of Motion Control For Games 131 comments
Eurogamer has a story about how the design of motion-control input devices has evolved over the years, ranging from the Nintendo Power Glove and Sega Activator up to modern devices like the Wii Remote and the upcoming projects by Sony and Microsoft. Now that the technology has caught up with the ideas, EA CEO John Riccitello said he expects motion-control gaming to rapidly expand, eventually occupying half the total games market. He said, "We almost invested to create a platform extension like that for some of the games we're working on. We're very pleased, frankly, that it showed up at Microsoft, because I'd rather them pay for that. They can leverage it better, and we can build software. But I felt the market wanted that technology and I'm glad it's coming."
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In Defense of the Classic Controller 251 comments
Kotaku has an opinion piece by Leigh Alexander singing the praises of classic, button-rich controllers for the level of precision and complexity they offer. While the Wii Remote and upcoming motion-control offerings from Microsoft and Sony are generating a lot of interest, there will always be games for which more traditional input devices are better suited. Quoting:
"With all this talk about new audiences — and the tech designed to serve them — it's easy to get excited. It's also easy to feel a little lost in the shuffle. For gamers who've been there since before anyone cared about making games 'for everyone,' having that object in our hands was more than a way to access the game world — it was half the appeal. Anyone who's ever pulled off a chain of combos in a console fighter can tell you about the joy of expertise and control. ... Gamers may suffer some kind of identity crisis as the familiar markers of their beloved niche evolve — or disappear entirely. The solution to that one's easy: Get over it. Like it or not, it's clear that gaming's not a 'niche' anymore, and its shape will change. The more pressing issue is whether or not controller-less gaming will truly make the medium richer. Making something 'more accessible' doesn't necessarily make it better."
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"I can't wait to throw a fireball." (Score:5, Interesting)
Xbox Project Natal : Felicia Day
"I can't wait to throw a fireball."
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DYuJivFFa-c [youtube.com]
Re: (Score:2, Interesting)
Excellent video demonstration of why Natal *will fail* (at least in the UK and Japan). Land is much less of a scarce resource in the USA so houses can have big open areas, but in countries with a higher population density people's houses just don't have that much space. Unless Microsoft can persuade people to rearrange their living spaces to make room by removing coffee tables, buying smaller sofas, etc Natal just won't be accessible for many people.
Re:"I can't wait to throw a fireball." (Score:4, Insightful)
So the Wii is also failing in those areas? It requires a similar amount of space to play Wii Sports.... maybe a small amount less, but not much.
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Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
Someone obviously never discovered you can play wii sports golf sitting down and swinging the wii-mote over your head. Although in all seriousness I do have quite a large / empty living room (for the UK), and a few of the more enthusiastic wii games do have space issues, there have been more than one wii tennis related injury in my household, also having a £1000 TV on the wall makes one a bit apprehensive about getting "too involved"
Re:"I can't wait to throw a fireball." (Score:5, Funny)
Or even better, they could convert it to take tactile feedback from the movement of one's thumbs and fingers. You could use a small controller. Oh, wait.
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Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
Here's a little N=1 for you, but I really enjoy Wii Sports (are there any other games for the Wii?), but my wife and I don't have one because we live in Japan, and even though we have the biggest place of any of my friends, there just isn't enough space for it to be fun.
Re:"I can't wait to throw a fireball." (Score:5, Funny)
Yep... I have real trouble typing in this cardboard box sized house I live in. Keep banging my elbows on opposing walls. And my head sticks out the roof.
When you Americans come to visit on vacation, its a bit like Gulliver's Travels. With one misplaced Nike you can wipe out entire villages of tiny houses. One carelessly discarded Big Mac wrapper can block an entire river.
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Re:"I can't wait to throw a fireball." (Score:4, Insightful)
Wow, I'm having flashbacks to when the first Xbox came out and people were saying it was doomed in Japan because its case was too big. As is the extra inch on the Xbox was just enough so it wouldn't fit through the door, or some shit. (Given, the original Xbox didn't do well in Japan, but I don't think it's physical size had anything to do with it.)
Now you're telling me that in the UK apartments (flats) are so small, apparently, that people with 36" TVs have to sit no more than 2' from the screen? Yeah, right. I know bullshit when I smell it.
The simple fact is that anybody who has a decent-sized TV in a comfortable-to-view location has enough space to use Natal. (Or Wii, or Sony's Eyetoy, since your argument applies equally to those.)
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The Gamertag Report (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:The Gamertag Report (Score:4, Insightful)
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Well you could go to the local martial arts center to spar with a real opponent but that also comes with drawback of real brain damage when you get kicked in the head! ;)
At least with the xbox you only have to worry about 'trivial' stuff like pulled muscles and heart attacks - unless players start trying back flips or something.
Somehow I foresee many lawsuits coming out of project natal..
Looks awesome though.
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
Did anyone else get out of breath just watching the girl play breakout?
Haven't seen the video, but depending on what age she was and how much she was bouncing about, I'm guessing a lot of /.ers got out of breath watching her :P
Anyway, I feel exactly the opposite when it comes to performing motions in computer games. I love that drumming at expert level on Rock Band actually needs real drumming skills. My drumming improved greatly within a couple of months of getting Rock Band (I've never had real lessons, just taught myself) and within maybe 4 months I had completed the whole
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
I'm much more interested in Milo [youtube.com] and the potential for a personal assistant.
Wouldn't it be nice to come home and say something like, "Good afternoon Milo, did I get any new messages?" and then have him give me an itemized listing. Throw in some call display, my contact list, and the apparently impressive speech recognition, I could have something very unique and personal, "Hey Peter, welcome home. Your mom called, twice, and your sister wants to know if you're going to dinner with her and the kids next Sa
Another Reason It's Important (Score:5, Insightful)
I welcome this new technology but as an avid gamer I'm more than a little bit afraid that with this new technology everyone is going to be expected to take advantage of it on the XBox360. We might be jumping into a new dimension too fast for software and hardware to support it. I know a lot of people would argue with that statement but Wii games feel 'soft' when they are WiiMote intensive and I wonder if Project Natal will feel the same way. Don't get me wrong, they are great games for four people to play while getting loaded.
I guess Nintendo pioneered what is the next step in video games much like Sony pioneering the transition from directional pad to miniature joystick. My question now is really whether or not the PS3 will follow suit. They have to in order to attract these motion titles, don't they?
Space Requirements? (Score:2, Funny)
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
I guess Nintendo pioneered what is the next step in video games much like Sony pioneering the transition from directional pad to miniature joystick. My question now is really whether or not the PS3 will follow suit. They have to in order to attract these motion titles, don't they?
Nintendo pioneered the miniature joystick as well. The n64 had analog sticks more than a year before the dual shock debuted. Nintendo always innovates, while everyone else takes.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Nintendo pioneered the miniature joystick as well. The n64 had analog sticks more than a year before the dual shock debuted. Nintendo always innovates, while everyone else takes.
I wish Nintendo also "pioneered" some new games... Motion controls are great, but useless if there are no new games to take advantage of them. WiiSports seems to be more of an exception.
The only thing which "excites" me about Natal is that MS is known for pushing hard technology on developers. In other words once released, I expect better support for Natal on Xbox360 than that of WiiMote on Wii.
Though there is also a probability that (similarly to WiiMote) Natal would degrade into some sort of "Waggl
Re:Another Reason It's Important (Score:5, Funny)
Nintendo pioneered the miniature joystick as well. The n64 had analog sticks more than a year before the dual shock debuted. Nintendo always innovates, while everyone else takes.
I still remember when Nintendo first started using optical media and everyone else had to stick with those dusty cartridges...
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Oblig. (Score:5, Funny)
"SirWangALot hits you with his 'Pendulous Apendage of Pendulousnous' for 2 bashing damage, and you are afflicted with 'Point and Laugh Hysterically!' for 10 seconds.
Only 48 Joints? (Score:5, Funny)
They could release an adult version of Project Natal that tracks 49 joints. That would make for a VERY interactive experience.
Like this? (Score:2, Redundant)
http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2009/6/5/ [penny-arcade.com]
Excited about it but there are still problems (Score:3, Insightful)
Im really looking forward to Natal, I think its one step closer to total immersion, however its not without problems. A wand or some sort of controller is still going to be needed to effectively "walk" in a game the only other way to do it would be to use some sort of gesture to glide the player along or to walk in place, neither of which is very practical. Using a gesture to walk forward in an FPS or RPG for instance would not only be awkward but would also completely destroy the "immersion" they are going for and anyone who has played Final Fantasy would balk at the idea of having to "moonwalk" your way across the map.
I can easily see it working in conjunction with a controller for those types of situations though and would still make the game more fun. The gesture recognition has me thinking about Fable 3, especially with Lionhead already playing with the technology. Fable 3 used a gesture menu that caused NPC's to react differently and say different things based on the "mood" or jesture your character portrayed. Just thinking about being able to talk (even with a limited amount of things be able to say) to the npc's, or to be able to sneer, growl or smile and get a reaction sounds extremely fun. I still see this as being a rather long way off but its undeniable that its a leap forward.
I had the pleasure of playing with a Z-Cam at last years CES, Natal is supposedly based partially on that and partially on something MS has been developing for years, the Z-Cam was already impressive, if with the melding of technology this is actually an improvement its going to be something to behold.
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Re:Excited about it but there are still problems (Score:4, Insightful)
This is the thing I've wondered about the most.
As I've said in response to a previous article though, I feel even having a game like Gears of War controlled as normal but with the added ability to "physically" duck particles or move to cover would add a whole new level of immersion. Even if I had to walk and look with the controller I still see a lot of scope.
Of course, one solution would be just to provide a cut down controller like the Wii nunchuck. Again another thing I pointed out in a previous thread is that Natal doesn't preclude the use of extra controllers - Guitar Hero can still use Guitars but give you extra points and extra interactivity for rocking like a true rockstar as you play ;)
I think the best thing to take away from what Natal can do is that it adds a new dimension to interactivity, a dimension that can be used on it's own, or simply to enhance the experience of existing games. I think really it has to be taken in the context of what it can add to gaming, rather than the idea that it's a whole replacement or whole new way of doing things, but simultaneously that's not to say that it doesn't open doors for whole new styles of control as well.
Despite all that I do not expect us to see much from it this console generation, I do not believe it will be released and then have time to really flourish until the next console generation, i.e. I think it'll be 2 years before we really see Natal come into it's own.
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iPhone-like fluidity, FFS (Score:5, Insightful)
"iPhone-like fluidity"
gimmie a break. How and why did you manage to fit a reference to the iphone into the summary.
iPhone-like subject line here (Score:3, Insightful)
I agree! It's bad enough trying to turn "iPhone" into a generic noun to replace the perfectly good word we already have: phone - now we get to use it as an adjective? (Although perhaps we should - if successful, Apple lose their trademark!)
I honestly can't even fathom what he means by it - although I suppose it's true that Natal doesn't have a keyboard, and probably doesn't have copy/paste...
Anyhow, now I'm off to iPhone-like read the rest of the ipHone-like Slashdot on my iPHone-like computer (it can acces
Hardhack potential (Score:2)
This thing is crying out for applications beyond games (which will be interesting, don't get me wrong). Imagine hooking this up to your front door - you could use the gesture recognition to make it so that your door only unlocks for people when they do the Truffle Shuffle!
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gesture recognition to make it so that your door only unlocks for people when they do the Truffle Shuffle!
Whatever turns you on, dude. I'm setting mine to "Big-Breasted Naked Lady with Case of Beer"
Re:Hardhack potential (Score:4, Funny)
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Re: (Score:2)
gesture recognition to make it so that your door only unlocks for people when they do the Truffle Shuffle!
Whatever turns you on, dude. I'm setting mine to "Big-Breasted Naked Lady with Case of Beer"
I'd like to point out that the second system is backwards compatible.
Mouse? (Score:4, Interesting)
If this technology is as good as it sounds, this spells the end of the mouse.
Seriously, my mousepad could be a touchpad.
Would probably need a thimble to avoid friction burn though.
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
If this technology is as good as it sounds, this spells the end of the mouse.
Seriously, my mousepad could be a touchpad.
Would probably need a thimble to avoid friction burn though.
The resolution isn't remotely close to being able to replace a mouse. Why do we use mice instead of touch screens?
1) They allow us to interact with our screens with our hands in a neutral position. A simplified and reengineered Natal could do this.
2) They allow us to move across a thousand pixels with only an inch of movement. It's going to be awhile before the precision of the mouse comes to motion recognition. Even then, motion recognition tends to have small jitter, and if it sees my hand with less t
Re:Mouse? (Score:5, Interesting)
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Sorry to rain on your parade... (Score:3, Informative)
1) It's probably not, that's why it's not due out for at very least a year, probably 18 months minimum.
2, 3, 4) It uses an infrared projector and monochrome camera, so low light isn't actually an issue. I'm not sure which site I read it at, but the reports coming back from E3 said most the demos were actually done in dark rooms. Regarding subtle movements, the racing movements are much more subtle, they have to be as not every race track is a sharp corner. It's also worth pointing out that even existing cam
Depth sensing camera (Score:4, Interesting)
The project Natal is indeed different for an Eye tool of a wii mote. This is a depth sensing camera (you have a RGB image and an image with the distance to the camera). This camera is made by Primesense (you can check theirs patents), it works by projecting a grid (infrared so you can't see it). By analyzing the deformed pattern with a camera, the depth is computed.
Having the deep information is really useful because you get the 3d cloud of the user and with some math, you can guess where is the user and what he is doing. For example you can find the biggest cluster of point (the user). The mass center of these points will give you the position of the user (this is already enough to to a lot of thing).
But the technology is not perfect. It will never be a full replacement for motion capture because it's subject to occlusions and there are a lot of ambiguous cases so the system will always need to cheat.
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
"This camera is made by Primesense (you can check theirs patents), it works by projecting a grid (infrared so you can't see it). By analyzing the deformed pattern with a camera, the depth is computed."
Wrong on two counts. Firstly, the Primasense camera works using speckle imaging, not by triangulating a projected pattern. Secondly Natal actually uses technology from 3DV Systems which uses infrared time-of-flight to measure distance.
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Not for cat people (Score:5, Funny)
Project Natal adds a new dimension for your cat to bother you while playing games.
What about people with disabillities? (Score:3, Interesting)
Say you only got one arm? or One leg?
Will Natal still work correctly?
EA: Sports 2010
Requirements: Xbox 360, Natal system, no physical disabilites
What happens if I stand just behind my friend and it looks like we have four arms? Will Natal work that out?
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
It is unfortunate that pe
Re:What about people with disabillities? (Score:5, Funny)
What if you jump on your friend's shoulders to form Mecha-Shiva?
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The new Wii Fit (Score:5, Insightful)
I always see Natal being compared to MotionPlus and Sonys Motion sensing, but I think that isn't really correct. Both MotionPlus and Sonys solution feature more or less classic controllers, but with motion sensing added. Both of them also have heavy focus on wrist movement, while ignoring the rest of the body.
Natal on the other side features no controller at all, thus no buttons and analogsticks, making navigation through pretty much any normal game impossible or at least really cumbersome. On top of that Natal doesn't put emphasis on the wrist/hand, but on the whole body, so you lose a lot of the small movement precision that MotionPlus and Sonys solution have. So Natal really isn't an improvement over other motion sensing solution, as it can't do what those can.
So what is it? Pretty much the same thing as WiiFit or EyeToy, just in an improved form and those didn't exactly turn out as hardcore gamers best friends either. Natal will fail for the same reason. Positional information on where your arms and legs are just aren't enough for precise gameplay, you need buttons for that. Look for example at Ricochet, you have to punch the ball into the game instead of doing the more natural thing of throwing it. Why? Because there is nothing in Natal that could give the game a clear idea when the player let the virtual ball go.
Unless somebody comes up with some actual interesting gameconcepts instead of the full-body-waggle, that Ricochet is, I remain highly skeptical on the future of Natal. At this point it looks like an interesting techdemo, not like a way to control future games.
Natal might be the first step towards the next gaming revolution, but so was the Powerglove, that alone doesn't turn it into a useful peripheral.
Remember PDC2003 (Score:5, Insightful)
By watching:
- all that "movie magic" (as one put it) in the non-live demos
- the highly choreographed demos given on stage
- Microsoft saying this is a very early in development
- Microsoft saying there is no shipping date
- the Milo video suggests a very capable AI far beyond what we could expect today, with reactions to facial expressions and broad-domain speech recognition
- how Vista looked great in that early video when it was called Longhorn and what a dog it is.
I call it bullshit.
This is Microsoft showing a non-product in order to damage sales of its competitors who are selling obviously less-advanced technology (of course - because they can ship a real product right now) than the fantasies they depict in their promotional videos.
Wake me up when they have a product.
Natal is already flushed (Score:4, Interesting)
I'm not saying the tech isn't cool, and I definately can see uses for it (the manipulation of 3D models alone would be awesome), but you're more likley to find uses for this in commerce and industry where dedicated manipulation zones can be established. Of course, it would also work if the game system is in someone's bedroom or another space where no one will bother the player, but those households are not going to be as broad an audience as that reached by the Wii. Hardcore gamers do have funds to spend, and I'm sure many will buy, but they will hit a market saturation point.
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Re: (Score:3, Funny)
I think the issue is that game developers have had a few decades of hand-only input.
That explains how we got DOA beach volleyball...
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>If this 'clever' Microsoft thing is so good, I think the movie industry would have already been using a similar system.
You dont need absurd accuracy for Natal to work. The film industry does. Not to mention people wont wear a suit of ping-pong balls.
The Natal tech is actually very neat. It projects an infrared grid and can measure distance by how the distorted the grid gets. Sorry if it gets in the way of your knee-jerk MS bashing.
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Sony and Microsoft battled it out over pixel pushing, while Nintendo actually innovated (something Microsoft talks about a lot but never does) and built something new that people really liked -- something that actually got non-gamers onto the scene.
When Sony or Microsoft do what you praise Nintendo for, it's bad? Their technology is clearly innovative and different to the Wii.
The fact is they can have their high end processing power and graphics, and fun motion controls on top of that. They'll probably be better able to utilise them because of that power and make more fun games that wouldn't be possible with the Wii's hardware limitations. As someone interested in games, and not Sacred Nintendo's market share
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
This is the power of Microsoft's marketing department.
Like no other company in the world, they have the ability to stop the presses and get ever news organization on the planet to talk about their products. CNN? New York Times? Sure, even if it's obscure gaming technology. Tech sites? Obviously. Linux news? Anti-MS sites? Slashdot? They're first in line.
I don't know what they pay the marketing guys over there, but they deserve a raise.
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"Infra-red is a color, you nitwit"
Yeah? So what does it look like? Is it like red, but darker? More "infra"? Oh what, you've never seen it, even though your eyes are right now being bombarded by infra-red radiation?
What's the color of X-rays?
Infra-red is a frequency of light just like the visible spectrum is. Maybe that's the nitpick you meant to make but couldn't because they didn't make that mistake, so you had to make one of your own instead.
Gah! Willful, unthinking ignorance like this really yanks