Manhunt Violence Story Sees Updates, Threats

Thanks to Blue's News for covering the latest developments in a UK videogame violence story, in which the Rockstar North-created game Manhunt was very allegedly implicated in "a grisly murder" - it's revealed: "The game was present in the victim's home, not the killer's... This may present a problem for those looking to turn this case to their own ends." Nonetheless, previously mentioned attorney Jack Thompson is jumping straight on the case, even from an continent away, according to GameDaily, as he rages: "We are going to destroy Rockstar, you can count on that... [ESA head] Doug Lowenstein makes Saddam Hussein look like a post-reformed Pinocchio." Finally, Gamesindustry.biz injects a thoughtful note into the mayhem, arguing: "Rockstar do not emerge from this affair smelling of roses... game makers could help the case a lot by trying to push the boundaries in terms of gameplay, rather than gore."

"Pushing boundaries of gameplay instead of gore"

I don't know about you guys, but I for one consider GTA to have been revolutionary in its gameplay experience. That's all GTA is about! The gameplay! They immerse you in a wild world with, it so happens, moral ambiguity.

Feel free to jump on the morality bandwagon (or create one if you can't find it). I for one will continue blithely on, cackling with glee at a world that lets me do everything I would never consider doing in my own.

Bah to idiots

If someone wants to play a game about killing Hell spawn demons (Doom 3 refrence : check), eating babies (Dunno :check) or stabbing old ladies then they should be able to. It's not their fault if some nutter goes off the rails and ends up killing someone.

I'm sick of hearing "GAMES DID IT!" because it's a cheap excuse for a fucked up society. You can't blame the car makers for a drunk driver so lets not blame the Playstation for the fucked up little kid.

Mod me troll if you wish, I don't overly care for karma compared to my opinions on this topic. I think the world is fucked up and blaming my hobby, I can earn Karma back but I can't earn back ignoring my opinions and staying silent in a discussion I feel important.

Jack Thompson.... a lawyer?

I read the Gamebiz interview and I'm pretty surprised that Thompson is a lawyer. Any decently competent lawyer knows better than to say "we are going to destory the other side" and throw out name calling. Until the last half of the interview, I thought the article was a joke... At least he'll make this whole affair entertaining to follow.

Well...

At least they didn't show a breast! Now THAT would have been evil and would have corrupted the minds of everyone that saw it.

Shades of the D&D AD&D witch hunt

"Thompson: There have been dozens of murders that have been tied to their products throughout the world, so it's just a matter of piling on, and we will do that. "

IF their have been over 24 murders that can be linked to rockstar why doesn't he name ONE?

THis is just like the crap people like this pulled concerning D&D and Heavy Metal.

A new slogan

Guns don't kill people, videogames kill people.

Re:A new slogan

Videogames don't make people violent, lag does.

SKOOOORE!

Aw MAN he disses Rock Star HARD! I mean like, some guy who murders tens of thousands of people with nerve gas and, like tortured ethnic minorities for fun is, like, way less evil than those fucker trying to make a game. DUUUUuuudDDe!

We are going to destroy you make your time

I'd like to make fun of this guy, really I would...but how? He already sounds like a stereotypical villain from an Ayn Rand novel.

With a lawyer like that...

With that guy representing the other side, I don't think we have anything to worry about. Insinuating that Doug Lowenstein is even lower on the moral scale than Saddam Hussein is all but a dead giveaway that the man possesses no faculties for logic, reasoning, or intelligent discourse.

Why am I not surprised.....

I look at it this way: Jack Thompson further proved himself to be an opportunistic scumbag. I'm surprised he didn't take the first flight to London as soon as he heard about it. But then again, we are talking about a total loon who would slit his mother's throat and/or sell his soul to the devil just to prove his asinine theories. Not to mention that he originated hearse-chasing(just like ambulance-chasing, except the destination's the funeral home) and he may be a necrophilliac. Let's analyze this scumbag, shall we?:

1) Thompson may be considered a racist since he helped lead censorship attacks against 2 Live Crew and Ice-T.

2) Thompson was ordered to take a psychological evaluation as part of a restraining order filed by Miami DJ Neil Rogers(IIRC, The Florida State Bar Association called Jack Thompson's sanity into question TWICE). In fact, Thompson can't even mention Rogers by name as part of that order, which came about when Thompson tried to have Rogers arrested over something he said on his radio show that Thompson didn't like.

3) Thompson has lost every case he started up involving the video game industry(the Paducah school shootings come to mind). When he tried to become Dustin Lynch's attorney last year(the case in Ohio where Thompson tried to blame(GTA3 for the murder), Lynch refused his services, so the judge banned him from being involved in the case, saying that Thompson had no right to defend a client that didn't even want him as his attorney; Lynch would later plead guilty anyway and in blood-stained letters sent to his victim's family members, he claimed he did it for "his own personal enjoyment" and that the game didn't make him do it. The prosecution even scoffed at Thompson's claims, saying that they had an open and shut case.

4) Thompson even enjoys calling HIMSELF a wacko(If you remember, he called himself "Wacky Jack" in a newspaper article about him joining the Haitians' lawsuit aginst Vice City).

Now about this particular case, Police officials don't even believe Thompson, the victim's parents or the British tabloid media. Officials have stated that robbery was the motive(The 17 year-old murderer killed the 14 year-old to rob him to pay off drug debts), and that the game was found in the VICTIM'S OWN BEDROOM!! Sounds to me like somebody has some explaining to do.

Jack Thompson has no credibility left, whether because of his own actions or because the federal courts continue to reject his claims. Yet the only reasons he's still around is 'cause of an apathetic news media(i.e. Anderson Cooper 360) and because he's an psychotic attention whore who's in need of mental help. And until a modern-day Edward R. Murrow questions the tactics of Thompson and his ilk, he'll continue this crap.

== BearDogg-X ==

Another good quote

And of course, another nice quote from the story [mcvuk.com] posted on Blues News [bluesnews.com]:

As for the link between Manhunt and the crime, the police are clear. Pooni said: "We haven't connected the game with the murder and we've already made that statement, but some sections of the media chose to ignore it...the motive was robbery."

I can't believe...

..that he played Manhunt enough to become violently affected... it sucks.

Boring, repetitive and repetitive.

This from a guy that loved GTA3 and Vice City.

ah yes

Well, I dont know about you guys, but I think its about time for video games to reach the high moral standards only lawyers have attained!

maybe he should get a rabies shot

We are going to destroy Rockstar, you can count on that...

He sure seems rabid enough. Hopefully some judge will shut him up soon.

Rockstar

If Rockstar has a ball in their pants they will be suing this motherfucker for libel before the week is out, and asking for his disbarrment as well. It is quite obvious he has a personal problem with them, and can not be trusted to act professionally. When you say shit like "We're going to destroy them" before there even IS a fucking WE, you have no claim whatsoever to being a lawyer. You do NOT say shit like that and expect to keep your job for long.

Weak logic on both sides of the fence.

It seems people have a hard time coping with singular labels.

Gamers aren't violent. Gamers aren't pacifists either. Gamers are (drumroll) gamers. Anything more is a premature conclusion and a gross generalazation.

It is probably true that some people can be influenced to commit violent acts through exposure to violent media. It is also probably true that some people can be influenced to commit violent acts through exposure to calm, tranquil media, or through media deprivation. Even so, "influenced" does not denote a causal relationship.

I've said it before many times, and will probably continue to say it long after it's forgotten that I started the phrase: "Every disease has a patient." There are more than six billion people on this planet, and any concievable deviant act or lifestyle not only probably exists, but likely has a thriving community online.

Meanwhile, back on the topic, it should be noted that Jack Thompson, while still quite mad (in the stark raving sense, not in the angry sense), was previously calling for stricter controls on preventing games of this type from getting in the hands of minors, which wasn't all that unreasonable a request. Calling for "destroying Rockstar," however, is.

18 certificate - where are the parents?

The game has an 18 certificate... the kids weren't 18.. And the parents don't want to accept any small portion of responsibility? WTF?

"Oh, he's in his room on his computer" .... once again, the computer is seen as a modern replacement for proper parenting...

dear lawyer...

if you do destroy rockstar, please do it *after* the release of GTA: San Andreas, and preferably GTA 4 if there is one.

thank you

Rockstar

I do have a good bit of sympathy with the main point of the gamesindustry.biz article. I don't believe in outright censorship or banning of games (although I don't object to an age-based classification system), but I do recognise that there is an argument over this which needs to be won and that games like Manhunt really aren't helping the case.

The Grand Theft Auto games were at least innovative in terms of gameplay (or at least, GTA3 was... Vice City perhaps less so). With Manhunt, by all account, the only selling point are the buckets of gore and the explicitely sadistic objectives. I saw a news article the other day saying that American Magee was intending to make "the most violent game ever"... but why? If you look at the world of movies, you'll find plenty of violence. However, the movies at the Manhunt end of the spectrum tend to be relegated to the straight-to-video category of "video nasties" and you don't normally get well known directors setting out to make "the most violent movie ever" (well... maybe Quentin Tarantino does, but at least his movies have other qualities, a la GTA3).

Ultimately, the great "videogames are evil" argument still has a couple of years to run. These arguments are inevitably won from the middle-ground. While I would support the right of developers to make whatever games they want, it would be nice if they had the common sense to keep things a little more low key for the time being. Right now, the only good news is that the anti-video-games crowd haven't done a good job of grabbing the middle-ground either.

Will find this nonsense harder before UK court

Not to flame the US judicial system, but thank god Jack Thompson will find it a lot harder to peddle his nonsense in this country! Firstly British law does not allow a lawyer to take a share of damages recieved, which removes the profit motivation for this sort of ambulance chasing.

Secondly our judges are appointed, not elected, which reduces the chance that a judge will play this for the crowd, and support this boneheaded action to garner favour with the tabloid press.

What it does show is how poor the lobbying strength is of the videogames industry in the UK. Given that videogames make more money in this country than the music industry and the film industry times 2, Members of Parliament are still prepared to take cheap shots at it because this hasn't been made clear to them. If videogames don't put more money into schmoozing our policymakers they will continue to be seen as an unimportant minority interest, vulnerable to the vaguries of the tabloid press.

real or not real, that is the question.

What annoys me is that these anti-violent-game lobbyists want everyone to understand that violence in games is not real. Yet at the same time they belive that playing them creates real world effects. So which is it?

Anyway, I liked "Postal 2" because of the moral ambiguity of that game. The fact remains.... you can actually win that game by not having to kill anyone.(stealing and doing drugs to avoid death from the game's assailants is a different matter though)

"Destroy Rockstar"

Hopefully there arent' any Haitians working for Rockstar, Jack Thompson might have to sue himself.

stats..

Now i read somewhere the other day that the average number of children killed every year in the uk is about 7 (even though people polled thought it was anywhere from 5 to 400) and this has been stable since the 50's. So what does that tell us? Soz for no link.. will have a look.

Parents Opinoun?

As i understand it the victims parent blamed the game - not exactly a qualified opinoun especially when you consider the fact that they were aware they played the game together - its an "18" game, any parent letting two 13year olds play such a game, especially if they take the time to look at it themselves are, in my eyes, negligent. All i can see here is media hype as a result of a parent trying to blame someone other than herself. I cant see how the two kids could be quite "right" either..

The most important point...

(Id already moderated here, but it looks like nobody has pointed this out, so ill post and burn the mod points - sorry modded people)

What seems to have been overlooked here, and something far more important than the game itself, is the BBFC Clasification of the game in question.

Over here in the UK, its Illegal (and pinishable by a big fine at least) to sell a BBFC rathed game to someone under the rated age. In this case, the game has an '18' certificate, which meants it is illegal to sell it to anyone under the age of 18 - something with retailers are typically very careful about.

Its the same system as used by the video/dvd retail industry, and not a requirement for games. if i remember correctly, only games which contain live action footage (which Manhunt does not) must be rated, but titles can be submitted for classification, which is something Rockstar do with all their titles.

The GTAs are 18 certificate, as is Manhunt, and if I recall correctly, MGS2 has a 15 certificate, while Eyetoy and Singstar have U (universal) and PG (Parental Guidance) certificates.

What is comes down to, is if the game DID have anything to do with the murder, then what were under-age children doing with a game that they cant buy, which is clearly labelled for adults?

In fact, to make matters worse, I remember hearing a quote somewhere that the favourite movie of the kid who comitted the murder is Scarface - something else that is 18 rated.

Its not like the rating system is new (its been in place for the last 20 years or so), or can be missed (distinctive red circle, which you see all over) - this is simply the case of the parents not paying attention at all.

Someone over 18 must have purchased the game, and someone was letting them play it, even though one of the first screens you see is a warning that it contains scenes of violence, and should not be viewed by minors!

This is fairly irrelevent now, but wither way, theres no excuse at all for it to be the game alone that is the cause here - its clearly lack of parenting.

Settle down there, killer

"We are going to destroy Rockstar, you can count on that..."

Sounds like he's been playing a little too much Manhunt.

--Stephen

maybe he got reaaally frustrated at their game?

Ban Ideas

So let me get this straight. The argument is that the game gives the killers ideas on how to murder their victems and should be banned. Otherwise, they would have killed the victem in a more traditional way?

Why don't we ban the news, everyday I turn it on and I see how someone kidnapped some 16 year old and raped and killed her, or how some people left their kid in a dumpster, or how some woman drove all her kids off a bridge in the family car. I never thought of that, I can mass kill my family by telling them we are taking a rode trip, then pushing them off a bridge! I can get rid of my kid by leaving him in the trash rather then facing embarassment at an abortion clinic!

Get this slashdoters, YOU CAN HAVE SEX WITH A HOT 16 year old! All you have to do is kidnap and have your way with her, THEN THROW HER IN THE WOODS WHEN YOU ARE DONE!!! AMAZING!

To think, I would have never come up with any of these things if I hadn't watched the news. They gave me all these great ideas for crimes. THANK YOU NEWS 11!

So very typical

Parents who can't take the time out of their very important and busy schedule to find out what it is that their own kids are doing. Hey, let the TV and the PC be mom and dad, meanwhile we can have a life. And when they don't know real life from a video game, because they have had images of goatse implanted in their brains from the age of 5 and because every time you die you hit Continue, we'll go and blame someone else because we fucked up in bringing our kids up to be decent people. Of course those kids went guns a-blazin' into their school because they played Doom, why else? And now this guy too, the statements these parents make are pathetic - "Our 17-year-old son seemed to be obsessed with ritualistic killings, there was nothing, nothing we could do!".

Aiming at the wrong people

Thompson: Right. The Daily Mail explains that even with this story on the front page of the newspapers in the U.K., they took a kid and were able to walk into retail outlets and buy the game. So everybody knows that the restrictions are a joke.

Okay, right there, you've named the appropriate target for any and all lawsuits. Video games, just because they USED to be aimed at children, aren't necessariliy in the domain of the 12 and under group. It's like periodicals, nobody is going to say (anymore!) that Playboy, Penthouse or Hustler shouldn't be sold at stores. The stores are supposed to be responsible for making sure that nobody unde 18 gets their hands on them. How are MA17 games different?

--trb

Remember we are dealing with grieving parents

I for one belive that it is acceptable to blame the games industry for the death of their son while they grieve. But as happens everytime, it will blow over and sales of manhunt will continue. What I do not belive is acceptable is a report in yestardays Metro [metro.co.uk]. Their article says that the parents are going to sue rockstart games as well as sony.

Can't find the quote...

"The game was present in the victim's home, not the killer's... This may present a problem for those looking to turn this case to their own ends."

I've trawled through most of the links but I can't find where this quote was taken from. I've seen contradicting quotes stating that a copy of the game was removed from the killer's home by police. So which is it? Have I just gone blind?

Gameplay rather than gore?

I think rockstar has added a lot of creativity to all their games including manhunt, theres a ton of games about stealth but manhunt (and mgs) allows you to attract your pursuers by using "sound" (not a stupid sound system in which you lose if you are too loud!) you can even use your mic if you have one. GTA was a complete revolution in gameplay and they are extending it in every volume, they invented "free roaming" for crying out loud they deserve awards not lawsuits! Society is completely hipocrite in this terms, if people want so much nonviolent games how come they sell so bad? try to pull any game without a known license that doesnt use any violence and or gore and you get an instant flop in the shelves if any publisher grabs it. Has anyone considered game developers do this because thats what gamers want? a lot of people complaint about GTA:SA has any gamer complaint with them to tone down the violence?

Jackass Thompson

Doug Lowenstein makes Saddam Hussein look like a post-reformed Pinocchio.

That's almost as ridiculous as when that NYT writer said that GTA3 was worse than child molestation. Here's hoping that this guy gets disbarred.

Rob

Nothing new in this game

If your going to ban violent video games you better ban those peskey books.... Lets see Running Man comes to mind as the same theme as the game. I think books are actualy worse for you because you have to visualize the violence yourself! Books are even unrated any kid can go and pickup a book about violence and sex, oh wait they are made to read those books by school. Anyway everyone thinks its dumb to ban books its also dumb to ban video games.... if you cant tell reality from fantasy youll be dropping anvils on your friends heads after watching the Road Runner! Im rambling but this whole subject pisses me off because it is just a repeat of past events Books, Rock and Roll, Pen And Paper roll playing games.. All these things have been blamed on kids killing each other. When one becomes more exceptable or a better target comes out stupid people jump all over it I mean who today thinks that areosmith is the Devil?

No time to read all the posts, but ..

this is hilarious :
"Rockstar do not emerge from this affair smelling of roses... game makers could help the case a lot by trying to push the boundaries in terms of gameplay, rather than gore."

As we all know that GTA3 wasn't revolutionary at all, and didn't break -any- boundaries in terms of gameplay.[/sarcasm]

Mod me redundant if the obvious has been said allready ;)

Btw, Manhunt sucked donkeypooh.

Stupidest. Thing. Ever.

This lawyer cat (and any bastard who blames video games, movies, books, tv, or any other media for problems with youth and other people) is a complete idiot.

Similar to the assholes that think that just because these rave kids dress in colourful outfits, wear candy bracelets and suck on pacifiers, they are doing so to attract children to the Ketamine and Ecstacy laden nights of drugged out psycodelic dance parties. completely not true. It's part of the spirit of the event. Depictions of donald duck, pokemon, and cell phone brands on the pills? It's for the fun of it.

The same goes for video games. Anyone can get obsessed over any thought. Some people get obsessed with washing their hands until they bleed. Some people have disorders where they scream all night, or try to remove imaginary insects from their body with razor blades (GET THEM OFF MEEEEEE!). Does that mean we should ban soap? Should we ban sharp things? Should we live in a world without entertainment?

What's good to one person can be a complete detriment to another. Look at firefighters. Some people are completely phobic of fire, others don't mind it. Most people lie somewhere in between.

No one's going to little Johnny's kindergarten class with posters of GTA or Manhunt or Doom3 and saying "tell your parents you want this!" Hell, I don't think video games are marketed ENOUGH. They're still pretty underground, it seems.... for the most part...

You know something... I think I'm gonna start obsessing over Darwin's theory of natural selection. Maybe I should go around putting bullets in the heads of every stupid person who blames media for problems in the world. I should go on a killing spree and take out every person who is horrified by my actions. You know, that's what I'll do....

My defense... well, that's easy. Jack Thompson inspired me. I'm doing it for him. He's my idol. My god. He'll get me off. He tells me what to do in my dreams...

That's the ticket.

Argh! Jack Thompson annoys me!

He better hope that I don't roll a 14 after entering the plains of Azkar: a +1 Gelatonous Cube!

Oh my god! I've become one of them!

But games do affact people

First of all, I'm not considered crazy by people around me(at least they haven't told me so or called the mental hospital).

A few years back when I was about 22-23, I had the expereince of seeing crossairs on people's head after playing too much Half Life and RtCW. When I was bored in a meeting, all I could think of is if I launch a grenade, how would it bounce from wall to wall like in Quake3. And sometimes I just do strafe turns at street corners. I mean really, games were conditioning me to see the world differently, react differently.

I can't say too much about Manhunt or about this police case because I'm not the killer, but since I've watched a 16 years old playing Manunt, I can see the impact of it on some people's mind. I believe people can be conditioned to behave in a bad way without them knowing, in the case of Doom, Half Life etc, you are fighting demons, aliens, other people who want to kill you. It's not a good reason to kill, but at least it's something I can say, ok if I'm in that kind of situation, I'll probably do so as well. But the subject of Manhunt is just plain sick. The player is there to kill people because it gives the avatar plesure, it gives the camera man plesure, the camera man tells the player how good the player feels for killing, in turn, it gives the player plesure. The repeated encouragement (kinda like a subliminal message) gives the player the impression that killing people is the most amazing thing.

Now that I'm older, I can control my mind better, but as someone who play way too much games, I have to say that reality can still be blurry to me sometimes. And I've seen the bizzard effect of some games on kids. They are more aggresive, simple minded sometimes down right unreasonable. To me, games like hitman, gta, carmaggedon are still within a thine red line that shouldn't be crossed, they're talking about bad guys with purpose. But Manhunt has just stepped over the line into stupidity.

Enough is enough...

I'd be the last to blame a developer for anyone's behavior. But come on, is this really the best that game developers can do? Sinking to the lowest common denominator to sell games?

You can blame the parents all you want, but if the parents truly WERE effective, the sales of games of this nature would plummet. Indeed, developers are taking advantage of parental failure.

If I want to see grisly stuff on TV, I can turn on the news, or RealTV, or shows like that. Games are great because they be an escape from the horrible stuff in our world, even if the game is about horrible stuff in another world. At least it's clearly not real. Nobody's going around in green and white slaying people with a Master Sword.

Have some ethics. Stop taking advantage of bad parenting. Show some pride in your craft. Create games that push limits in ways that don't earn you an M/Ao rating.

Re:Mod Down if you Must, But...

You get points for murdering people in gruesome ways, with weapons like "the plastic bag", with which you strangle, snap necks, and break noses - all in a live-motion cutscene EVERY TIME you kill.

Unlike, say, hollywood movies... how?

Re:Mod Down if you Must, But...

They may look awful, but looking awful and being responsible are two completely different things.
You wouldn't recommend the game, thats fine. (Either would I, but only because it was so boring imo). But everyone should have the right to decide if they want to play it or not. Just the same as parents have the right to let their kids play the game or not.
If the parents in this case let their kids play the game, they are the ones responsible. (Assuming some link between violent games and real life violence can be established). Simple as that.

Re:Mod Down if you Must, But...

And that is so different from say carmageddon who?

the problem isn't the games, the wast majority of us play them without any toubles, the problem is in the retared people that can't tell reality and fiction apart, banning videogames while allowing violent hollywood movied won't do any good.

Mod Parent Offtopic

It's awful. I wouldn't recommend the game to anyone

Well, whats your point? Yes I've played the game myself and yes I think the game is just plain awful, but that doesn't mean Rockstar should get sued because someone killed another person. Could you imagine the implications following after that? We'd have to sue car companies because someone drove their car while drunk. We'd have to sue steak knife companies because some kid ran around with it and stabbed his little brother. Etc etc.

If the game went around saying 'kill people, kill people, its all just a game' I could see why people would start pointing fingers at Rockstar, but when you consider the context "con gets pulled off deathrow without permission to play a game of cat and mouse" why not? When you think of it that way, you could say the main character is acting out in self-defense.

Re:Mod Down if you Must, But...

You get points for murdering people in gruesome ways, with weapons like "the plastic bag", with which you strangle, snap necks, and break noses - all in a live-motion cutscene EVERY TIME you kill.

There's not really anything unique or new about that. It sounds like you just didn't like the presentation of the game, which is fair enough. It doesn't come across that well.

Personally the only thing I found disturbing about Manhunt was what a crap game it was!

Re:Mod Down if you Must, But...

no dont mod this down... your EXACTLY right....

I loved Mortal Kombat... it was bad, but it really was tame compaired to this game... the violence presented in it was like KillBill.... it had pretty blood, it was comical since i have yet to see someone rip a spine out with their bare hands...

Manhunt disturbs me like that Nicholas Cage movie with the snuff film disturbed me... yeah the storyline might say you have to kill or be killed... but its killing for killings sake. And instead of going Doom or even Wolfenstien, they make it EXTREAMLY realistic... like they studied how people die when these things are done to them....

I liked the old GTA (not thrilled with the newer ones) but this game was just sick... and worse its VERY easy for little kids to get their hands on it, even with the M rating. Do I think that Rockstar should be destroyed... no not really, thats stupid. Do I think this game was a VERY dumb move on their part... yeah.

What surprises me more is that this game has barely made the news while BMXXX was all over it.... its so stupid that the US STILL has problems with tits but cutting a guys throat is cool.