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Games Better Than Books? 310
cellullama writes "Some of the leading video-game researchers are saying that games are better for teaching than textbooks. Three University of Wisconsin professors just said schools and corporate trainers should learn something from Halo 2 and Half-life. My workplace is already doing this (but don't tell my boss.)"
I learned everything I know from Doom... (Score:2, Funny)
You didn't study hard enough (Score:2)
Everyone knows that what you really should use is the chaingun. A berserker and a chainsaw would also have been an acceptable answer.
Re:You didn't study hard enough (Score:2)
in my day, we had it tough! it were shotgun or nowt! our dad would thrash us for using any of them new fangled rapid-fire things.
(truth be told. last weapon I was holding in Halo2 about 20 minutes ago was the shotgun. front of mind and all that)
Re:I learned everything I know from Doom... (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:I learned everything I know from Doom... (Score:2)
Re:Me too... (Score:2)
Half Life (Score:2, Funny)
Re:Half Life (Score:2, Informative)
Possible, but... (Score:3, Insightful)
Daniel
Re:Possible, but... (Score:3, Interesting)
did you ever read the Doom adaptation novels, for instance?
Re: (Score:2)
Re:Possible, but... (Score:5, Insightful)
When you read a book, you exercise the muscle of your imagination. You create worlds in your head, you see things that you've never seen, your mind is at full work placing you in another universe. When you watch a movie or play a game (no matter how involved, complex, and interesting the story is), your imagination is at rest. Everything is provided ready-made.
Some movies, and probably some games, manage to work your imagination in a way similar to a book, because of the incredible genius that went into making them, but even there, they are usually lesser than the equivalent book in that respect.
I'm not advocating that books are "better" than movies (in fact I'm not advocating anything, merely presenting my point of view!
Daniel
It is very dark. (Score:2)
Re:Possible, but... (Score:4, Insightful)
Don't discount gaming as not-books. They are not books. But they have their strengths as a medium too. And quite frankly, if young adult's exposure to reading is through High School Textbooks, no wonder they consider it dry, boring, and poorly done. I fail to see how circumventing some of that would hurt.
P.S. Since 7, the Final Fantasy games have contained more text than most any books. I believe that is what the parent was referring to.
Re:Possible, but... (Score:2)
Not if movies/games/TV can provide things that books can't. Which I believe is true. You might imagine a lion with the sharpest, best imagination in the world, reading the best description ever written, but it still won't be up to scratch compared to actually seeing a lion hunting on TV. I'd suggest a balance of the two instead.
Re:Possible, but... (Score:2)
Re:Possible, but... (Score:2)
Then again I also had to skip from the Party directly to Bree to get through Lord Of The Rings for the first time.
maybe I should crack Grim open again?
Re:Possible, but... (Score:2)
It seems to be something of a myth that book reading is on a slide. Certainly book ownership has been going through the roof. Whether people are reading good books though is a different matter entirely.
Why one or the other? (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Why one or the other? (Score:2)
I'm reminded of a quote att
Re:Possible, but... (Score:2)
Re:Possible, but... (Score:2)
Daniel
Re:Possible, but... (Score:2)
I have tried to read in the past and was unsuccessful. In high school, teachers saw potential in me and put me in advanced math and english classes (which called for summer reading). I did fine in advanced math but it took half the summer to read one book and there were 3 to read.
I don't see that as any type of shortcoming because I know I have imagination.
Re:Possible, but... (Score:2)
Second, You are agreeing with me with the very way you phrase your disagreement. Let me break down your argument for you:
You're saying that because you can't visualise forests when reading LotR, there is nothing to be gaine
Write a book! (Score:2)
You want to really learn about a topic? Try writing a book about it! Nothing like putting what you know down on paper to make you think about it.
EricRe:Write a book! (Score:2)
Not only that, but writing a book about something requires you to perform even more research than you would otherwise, to make sure you're not making things up.
Not very accessible to someone who's never even READ a book though...
Daniel
Re:Possible, but... (Score:2)
Games may be better at teaching certain things than books, but they can never provide the kind of mind expansion that reading a lot of novels can.
For the mind expansion may I recommend special kinds of mushrooms. Then the only books you'll have to read are written by Aldous [amazon.co.uk] Huxley. [amazon.co.uk]
Plus we need to have conversions of things like Pride and Prejudice to make it appeal to more women. Though my girlfriend is really into the Sims to I'm sure they could just come up with a Jane AUsten expansion pack.
Re:Possible, but... (Score:2)
The first thing that popped into my mind when reading this story: "better at teaching what?"
For example, Halo might be better at teaching combat skills than a book about combat skills. That is to say, when it comes to learning *how* to do something, it's often better to learn by doing than to learn by reading about it. Insofar as playing the games are activities themselves, you're learning by doing. Insofar as games are simulations, you're lea
Re:Possible, but... (Score:3, Interesting)
Why do people always say this? FWIW I do read a lot, but I can't see any reason why a book is somehow "better" than a movie or a game. Yet large numbers of people seem to take it as a given. There are good and bad books and games, and possibly more bad games than bad books, but why is it always assumed that a good game can never be as good as a good book?
Re:I agree. (Score:2)
W/O reading the article, I do not think they
Re:I agree. (Score:3, Interesting)
4 out of 5 scientists say..... (Score:5, Interesting)
Is there a corresponding team of book researchers saying that books are better for teaching than videogames? I'd tend to side with them.
Re:4 out of 5 scientists say..... (Score:3, Insightful)
Have you READ a textbook lately? IF you somehow manage to stay awake long enough to make any progress, chances are you'll be so confused that you wont know what the hell it said. Textbooks need teachers with them to learn. They need a translator.
BOOKS, on the other hand, are wonderful. I read at least a book a week, frequently 2-3. It's a great experience. Maybe they need to get better writers for textbooks, I dont know, but I wouldnt dou
Re:4 out of 5 scientists say..... (Score:3, Insightful)
Chris Mattern
Re:4 out of 5 scientists say..... (Score:2)
Daniel
Re:4 out of 5 scientists say..... (Score:2)
by Stephen King
Re:4 out of 5 scientists say..... (Score:2)
I learned to drive playing "GTA: Vice City". Now, if you want fair warning about the times I tend to take to the road, I will certainly understand.
Re:Zombies (Score:2)
Re:Zombies (Score:2)
Overlooked (Score:4, Insightful)
It's just that most people in a position to add this kind of technology are not qualified to or do not see the benefit of doing so.
The education will catch up with the technology eventually and then we will see something new.
Re:Overlooked (Score:2)
Re:Overlooked (Score:2)
Re:Overlooked (Score:3, Informative)
Re:Overlooked (Score:2, Insightful)
True. That's why science labs are so important. The sad thing is that some schools replace actual hands-on science with computer programs to teach it, and kids simply don't learn as much. They can tell you what they're supposed to know, but they don't see it or fiddle with it or really understand it. (Note: School science textbooks are also terrible at teaching science.)
I'd also argue that wh
duh (Score:3, Informative)
2. kids do things they find fun, and as much as we might try, they will learn from other kids that "reading isn't fun, playing games is fun" no matter how much fun reading really is or how suck the games really are.
so to that end I encourage having your kids play some of these games if they want to play games:
1. Typer Shark [popcap.com]
2. Bookworm [popcap.com]
And if you can find some old-school "Number Munchers" you're on your way to gaming-learning fun. I've placed these two games on desktops I've built for younger cousins and family friends, and the response has been quite good. They learn to type (Typer Shark, duh) and spell (Bookworm) in a creative and fun fashion.
(Me? I... uh... waste my brain away playing World of Warcraft, personally, but "I'm allowed to decide for myself, being 27" just don't tell the wife...
Castle Math (Score:2)
Re:duh (Score:2)
I think that's the big point to this "startling" revalation.
Kids (and adults) are more likely to keep at something if they find it enjoyable. Even if they like reading, hand them something they hate, and they won't be inclined to read the whole thing, or they will shut down their brain and just turn the pages. (When I was 14 I read a lot of sci-fi, but Jayne Eyre was impossible drudgery -- Actually, I tried to re-read it recently, and it's still impossible for me to get i
Re:duh (Score:2)
I didn't see the first quote upon first reading, and so I thought, 27"!? I think your wife would already know about that!...
Re:duh (Score:2)
That's a good point about Harry Potter sales, but that is hardly educational, either, unless learning the words to the "Wingardium Leviosa!" spell is the kind of learning we're talking about!
The concepts behind teaching.... (Score:3, Insightful)
Real question (Score:5, Insightful)
Yeah right, but the real question is: are they better at teaching useful things than textbooks?
Re:Real question (Score:2)
Neverwinter Nights is awesome (Score:5, Funny)
Indeed, my half-elf character class is "Application Developer". He was known for his programming prowess in all of Neverwinter, until his job got oursourced to dwarves in Waterdeep. Then he went all ballistic with a bow and arrow and has been chaotic evil ever since. It's sad.
Responsibility (Score:2)
Should history games stick to history? (Score:2)
The same responsibility that book creators do.
But you raise a deeper point. What is the true purpose of learning history? Is it only to understand a set of facts about the past? Other than a flash-card game structure (rote learning wrapped in a game), history is ill-suited to gaming because history is fixed.
But what if the true purpose of learning history is it to prepare the student for making political d
Re:Should history games stick to history? (Score:2)
Absolutely true! Are textbooks any different? Was Christopher Columbus a hero or a villain? It depends on which textbook you read.
Re:Responsibility (Score:2)
As any gamer will tell you, games are also a time sink. So...instead of poring through the New York Times, reading real news, feeding your brain, you're fucking around w
The two can not be compared (Score:3, Insightful)
No Surprise: Passive vs. Active (Score:2)
It's a separate question of "what
Re:No Surprise: Passive vs. Active (Score:3, Informative)
A no-brainer. (Score:2)
This, of course, assumes that the target audience isn't afraid of computers or other such techno-gadgets.
Better at What Books Don't Do (Score:2)
On the other hand, games suck for looking stuff up, which is where textbooks excell. Also, a good textbook is far better in terms of brevity. It's like comparing doing an experiment to reading about it. You want to do some experiments, yes, but I'd really rather not test relativity myself.
I'll keep my textbooks and
The Diamond Age (Score:2, Interesting)
Bullcrap. (Score:3, Insightful)
A few things might benefit, but replacing books with video games? On the advice of the video gaming industry??
Ok then gaming industry, put your money where your mouth is. Write a really great game that teaches Calc I. Go ahead - I dare you.
"Dude, I totally fragged you with that asymptote!"
Re:Bullcrap. (Score:2)
However, calc software (or math software) certainly exists that can teach mathematics along with you having a pencil, paper, calculator, etc.- just like the book.
Re:Bullcrap. (Score:2)
Agreed. You need to study Calc and work through problems to get any real benefit whatsoever.
Yes there is software that can help teach math. Maple is a good example. But - I wouldn't call it a game. Some things require concentrated effort, and video games aren't really known for that.
Total bullshit (Score:2, Insightful)
But otherwise this is total bullshit!!!
Look where many rich IT-millionaires put their kids. They go to those elite private schools where they use computers as little as possible. Even less than in your local city center ghetto. You have to write with a pen. Write a lot. Do things in your head in the old way. Hand held calculators are luxury.
Good education is when you learn to think. Sitting behind computer you learn to copy paste information. Not good.
Re:Total bullshit (Score:2)
IMHO introducing children to computers too early and too much ~restricts~ their learning by enforcing artificial constraints upon their creativity and learning. A solid foundation in communication skills (language, writing), qualitative thinking (social sciences), and quantitative thinking (math, science) are all prerequisites for being able to use a computer effectively.
Of course, I'll provide a caveat
Re:Total bullshit (Score:3, Informative)
Red Baron helped me (Score:2)
I was playing Sierra's Red Baron at the time, and you actually got to fly all those planes. It was much easier to learn those specs when you had to fly using them (and fly against them) in mock combat.
I think a education/gaming revolution would be a true innovation that would create a huge advantage to any country that adopted it. I don't mean glorified quizzes and gameshows...I mean actual simulation o
You find yourself in a yearly appraisal... (Score:5, Funny)
>Look
You see your manager sitting opposite you, she is holding a sheaf of papers
>Examine papers
You can't do that.
>West
You bump into a filing cabinet. You cannot go that way
>I
You are carrying:
A PostgreSQL manual
A chewed blue pen (full)
A cup of black coffee
An NTK T-Shirt (worn)
A scarred Battle axe.
>Use Axe
Re:You find yourself in a yearly appraisal... (Score:2)
Too bad everything is graphics, graphics, graphics in today's games. They are by far less immersive, less imaginative, and less ed
University Professors? (Score:2)
couch crispies (Score:2)
Blast from the past! (Score:4, Informative)
Ahhh, the good old days! Those of you younger than 35 or so aren't going to remember how much fun it was learning about digital cicuit design on an Apple ][ with Rocky's Boots [warrenrobinett.com] written by Warren Robinett -- the guy that hid his name in the Atari game Adventure [warrenrobinett.com] and kicked off the whole easter egg craze.
No kidding... (Score:2)
Simulations interact with more areas of the brain, and engages the participant more actively. The more engaged your attention and focus is, the more you'll learn. That's why a lot of people prefer to learn by doing. Doing virtually is probably the next best thing people have come up with.
~D
Re:No kidding... (Score:2)
Amusing ourselves to death (Score:4, Insightful)
In it he discusses the expectation that education should be entertaining. Here's a review from Amazon.com:
Reviewer: Nicholas Carroll
Although this book was written in 1984, the ideas in it are still relevant to today's world, even moreso now than back then. This is one book that I wish he would update with new chapters, because a lot of the critiques he made when he wrote this have taken on new meaning in the events of just this new century alone. For instance, his main critique is how entertainment has infiltrated our culture with a focus on trivia rather than substance. No where is this more apparent than a state recalling a governor a year after he had won reelection by a significant number, and that such a governor was run out of office in favor of an ACTOR, who many hope the U.S. Constitution will be amended so he can seek even higher office! This, despite the number of conservatives who tell Hollywood actors to shut up about politics in the run up to the Iraq war. Politics used to be showbusiness for ugly people, but now its nothing more than an extension of showbusiness. Even televangelists are critiqued in Postman's book because of the lack of sacred boundaries that television does not have as compared to a place of worship.
When I read this book, I can see examples that have cropped up in the 1990s that have proven his thesis true. Cell phones is one example. Ever eavesdrop on another person's public cell phonecall? I'm shocked at the trivial minutaie that people discuss with whomever they are speaking to, as if what they are doing at that moment matters to another person. What we get in a society that always seeks amusement for fear of boredom is a constant barrage of images and distractions that don't really mean anything in the end. The way we teach our children in schools to study for the multiple guess tests instead of teaching them interconnected facts that build a story, a history, an appreciation for the interconnectedness of our planet. So, we end up with people who can pull facts out of their rears to succeed on gameshows like "Who Wants to be a Millionaire?", where one question and answer doesn't relate to the next one. No wonder why people can't see a connection between our war in Iraq and our consumption of oil.
Postman is right...a society that seeks one entertaining thrill after another cannot survive and endure history's challenges for very long. When many people in the world haven't had their basic living needs met (food, water, shelter) while we are looking for the next entertaining thrill, what does that say about us? Why has amusement become such a huge, moneymaking value to our culture? When will we learn to balance entertainment with relevant issues that require serious study and attention? Why is our thirst for entertainment so unquenchable that now we're not satisfied with Hollywood's outpouring, but we expect entertainment from our politicians as well? These are questions that inevitably came up as I read this book. I really hope that Neil Postman will write a follow-up or update this book with minor changes (substituting references like "The A Team" and "Dallas" for "CSI" and "Desperate Housewives" for instance) and new chapters (like the phenomenon of Jesse Ventura and Schwartzenegger as governors; the use of cell phones for minutaie details; and the proliferation of reality television shows). But despite that, this is worth a serious read and discussion.
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0140094385
Just a lot of f****** nonsense (Score:2)
If teaching becomes a largely a visual process, you will lose a lot of that abstraction. Maybe that's great if you want a lot of trained monkeys to run a production line, but if you want to expand people's minds, give them a stack of philosphy, physics and math books.
Re:Just a lot of f****** nonsense (Score:4, Funny)
Nethack?
I heard the opposite (Score:2)
The thought was that books force kids to form new neurons at a much more rapid rate than games or television. Don't ask me how they measured neurons (I don't have enough to know). They also said that the moving visual & audio input can make it harder for kids to memorize new subjects because of the
Yet another way (Score:2)
A few educational games are a good thing -- but taking cues from Halo and Half-Life is not a good trend. The last thing we need is more software that makes it hard to replace the computers whenever you get to (like all the old proprietary games that won't run correctly on XP, and a few things aren't even happy with Classic on OS X). And speaking of hardware, when you start pressuring the schools to have decent hardware for fancy 3D gaming you're going to have to go to a 3-
Financial IQ Games (Score:2)
http://all-technology.com/eigenpolls/fiqgames/ [all-technology.com]
MUDs (Score:3, Interesting)
Examples?! (Score:2)
Article misses several points - my 2 cents (Score:5, Insightful)
Depth. Seriously now, most game plots can be summarized in one paragraph, try doing that with Umberto Eco's "Foucault's Pendulum", or from what I've heard "The DaVinci Code" (which sounds to me like a new version of Eco's novel)
Vocabulary. Rarely, if ever, have I seen a game with any words I don't know. I can't honestly say games haven't done a thing to increase my own vocab. Books on the other hand, at least the ones I read, will usually require me to grab my Shorter Oxford or go online to look a word up.
Grammar/Spelling. Go look at your typical bulletin board (I don't count /. as such). People's grammar, punctuation & spelling has gone to hell. My own has certainly declined over the years since leaving college, but some of the spelling I've seen and sentences -- or should I say non-sentences -- are just horrible. I don't think it's just net shorthand, I think people's communications skills really are declining. I think reading less and gaming more could be partly responsible. And yes, I am a huge gamer (FPS, RTS, MMORPGS), but I can admit my mind and communication skills would probably be better served by more reading.
Visualization/Imagination. When the images are spoon fed to you in a game, there's no room for your own mind to construct the image like it does from words on a page. To process words into an image takes a certain amount of brain power, that 'here you go - here's your picture' never will. On the flipside, being able to thoroughly describe something you see in written form can be difficult - I think people write less to, not just read less.
The exception I might make to the above remarks would be module making. I've done some Neverwinter Nights modules - a good one requires the ability to understand basic coding, write good dialog, create a cohesive plot, and learn to tie in various elements (both story and programming objects). Even FPS design requires some thought & planning, map design, etc. I think from that angle, you can learn a lot, but in general I think the quality/depth of most games doesn't match a solid book.
You might be able to say many games ENTERTAIN more than books, but that's not synonymous with EDUCATE.
Given kids' spelling and grammar skills... (Score:2)
Learning before thinking (Score:2)
Reading this with a dirty mind is rather funny.
Anyway... There is a lot to be said for wisdom vs knowledge. Of course games aren't going to replace all books, I wish the article put more emphasis on that. I wo
Gee... (Score:2)
I've not met a college/high school textbook I liked well enough to keep.
Sensei Calculus/Sensei Physics (Score:2)
Anyway, the main draw in a game seems to be the competitive aspect (between you and someone
Re:level of interest (Score:2)
Re:level of interest (Score:2)
Re:level of interest (Score:2)
IAWTP (Score:2)
For spelling games -- hell yeah they can! Check out PopCap Games [popcap.com] Typer Shark [popcap.com] and Bookworm [popcap.com]. Failing that, get into online Scrabble or something.
(And likely I have spelled something incorrectly in this post. I always do. Peace.)
Re:IAWTP (Score:2)
The Titans' Expansion, however, was pushing it a little. It didn't really add anything educational. It added a kick-ass Titan power though
Total War... (Score:2, Funny)
I guess the Romans sux0r3d.
Re:Semantics (Score:2)
I mean, some would say the whole of Quake (I) was a work of art. others would say that some sections of Halo (Halo, Silent Cartographer) were stunning in terms of landscape.
This is not even to extend out as far as the background stories - to cite Halo again, the world it's situated in is arguably as rich as any literary fantasy world. If you call "The Hobbit" a work of art, surely some story-heavy games can break into the "art" world?
Re:Semantics (Score:2)
to cite Halo again, the world it's situated in is arguably as rich as any literary fantasy world.
Your kidding right? Maybe there is lots of background stuff at the Bungee offices, but the amount of stuff released about the Halo world (Including novels and I Love Bees) so far isn't nearly as much as something like, say, Middle Earth, which has it's entire history laid out and whole languages created.
If you want contenders for rich worlds in computer games, I'd look at ones based on pencil and paper RPGS
Re:Semantics (Score:2)
I agree with the extensibility thing, if extensibility can be, to an extent, controlled.
Re:Yeah, right. (Score:2)