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Role Playing (Games)

Ultimate RPG Gaming Table 348

Posted by Zonk from the light-from-above dept.
Nyrath the nearly wise writes "RPGs like Dungeons and Dragons are traditionally played on a tabletop using miniatures. The problem is that the players are only supposed to see those parts of the map that they have explored. Gamemasters are reduced to drawing explored sections of the map on the playing surface with dry-erase markers or using cardboard tiles representing stretches of corridor. Some fellows have an expensive but elegant solution. They map out the playing area in a laptop using software such as Tabletop Mapper, which allows to game master to dynamically hide and reveal sections of the map. The laptop is attached to a 1600 lumen DLP projector mounted on the ceiling and projecting an image of the visible map onto the tabletop. The miniatures can then be moved on a dynamic map. The eye candy factor is vastly increased, gamemaster labor is reduced, and the players have more fun. The elegance is that this is an intuitive enhancement of the traditional gaming experience, instead of an unfamiliar new user interface to be mastered."
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Ultimate RPG Gaming Table More

Ultimate RPG Gaming Table

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  • Table? (Score:5, Funny)

    by Anonymous Crowhead ( 577505 ) on Tuesday March 15, 2005 @07:32PM (#11948798)
    We played on the floor.

  • sweet (Score:3, Funny)

    by blogtim ( 804206 ) on Tuesday March 15, 2005 @07:32PM (#11948807) Homepage
    Bring on the 3d googles!

  • but what about... (Score:5, Insightful)

    by eobanb ( 823187 ) on Tuesday March 15, 2005 @07:33PM (#11948818) Homepage
    a DLP rear-projection system. Doesnt't that make a little more sense, in a way? Then you won't have shadows over everything from people's hands. It'd look a bit better overall anyway.

    • How about this... (Score:5, Interesting)

      by Short Circuit ( 52384 ) * <mikemol@gmail.com> on Tuesday March 15, 2005 @07:55PM (#11949033) Homepage Journal
      How about this...
      1. Take your projector, set it on the floor, pointing up.
      2. Put a clear glass table over it
      3. lightly grease the glass. You want to be able to see shapes through it.
      4. Think about laying another sheet of glass or clear plastic over the grease.

      Voila! You've got a rear-projection system you can set things on.

      If the grease is light enough, your gameboard will also be projected onto the ceiling.

      Variations on a theme:

      • Instead of grease, get a sheet of clear plastic and rub down one side of it with steel wool until it's thoroughly scratched. A little cleaner, and you won't get Crisco all over your notes and miniatures.
      • Point a webcam at the table, or the ceiling projection. Keep a visual record of moves. (Audio commentary might be neat, too.)

      • Re:How about this... (Score:4, Interesting)

        by Guspaz ( 556486 ) on Tuesday March 15, 2005 @08:33PM (#11949322)
        Or even better, instead of greasing or scratching, a very thin piece of white paper (The thinner the better).

        What I want to know is why he has to have people look away to check stuff for himself. All he has to do is set the projector as a second screen instead of cloning the main screen (This is trivial to do on a laptop, which he seems to use). Do your editing on the main screen, which only the DM can see. Then just copy+paste onto the second screen. This way the DM can do his changes, and get them right, BEFORE he shows the players. No lowering opacity while players look away!

        You could get more fancy too. Since this is a layered approach, he could only copy+paste the mask layer so that on his editing copy the mask layer can have 50% opacity, which he then copy+pastes to the display copy which has an opacity of 100% on the display layer.

      • Re:How about this... (Score:3, Informative)

        by puppet10 ( 84610 )
        You should be able to also get a ground/etched glass plate (could probably get tempered glass for safety) at a local glass shop for not too much. That would also provide a good diffusion surface to project onto.
      • How about lightly sandblasting one face of the glass? I mean, if you're going to build something like this, do it right. Using a DLP projector to throw an image on to a screen you created by scratching a sheet of plastic with steel wool to get translucense seems somewhat akin to getting a new P4 system and hooking it to a CGA monitor. But that's just me.

    • Actually, front projection isn't so bad. (Score:5, Informative)

      by dlleigh ( 313922 ) on Tuesday March 15, 2005 @07:58PM (#11949056)
      I've worked a lot with multi-user front-projection table displays (see here [merl.com] and here [merl.com]). People think that the shadowing caused by hands, etc. will be a big problem, but we've found that, in practice, it isn't. Many first-time users of our table believe that it is rear-projected, despite the bright projector hanging over their head.

      In fact, the shadowing can sometimes be an advantage since you can often see things projected on top of your hands, which would be blocked in the rear-projection case.

    • Re:but what about... (Score:5, Funny)

      by Josuah ( 26407 ) on Tuesday March 15, 2005 @08:04PM (#11949103) Homepage
      The kicking feet might damage the projector under the table. Like when someone decides to die a dramatic death and act it out because they are being "in-character". Or all the boys are playing footsie with the one girl they managed to con into playing with them. Or the fans in the projector get gunked up with all the Cheetos that fall on the floor.

    • Re:but what about... (Score:5, Informative)

      by Nyrath the nearly wi ( 517243 ) on Tuesday March 15, 2005 @08:05PM (#11949110) Homepage

      The trouble is that most projectors require a minmum distance of five feet between the lens and the screen. If the projector was on the floor, the tabletop would have to be five feet off the ground. And of course the closer the projector is to the tabletop, the smaller the image, which is the exact opposite of what you want.

      I suppose one could have the projector in the tabletop, bouncing the beam off a mirror on the floor, but now things are getting complicated.

      There are more details here [enworld.org] and here [dundjinni.com]

  • One last touch to add: (Score:5, Funny)

    by infonick ( 679715 ) * on Tuesday March 15, 2005 @07:33PM (#11948819) Homepage
    magnetic pieces that move themselves to voice commands - like Jumanji!

  • A better way to do it? (Score:5, Insightful)

    by DianeOfTheMoon ( 863143 ) on Tuesday March 15, 2005 @07:33PM (#11948820)
    Wouldn't a better way of doing this (though probably much more expensive) be to mount a projector in the bottom center of the table with a screen, so that reaching across it doesn't blank out the map?

  • Immediate Impression (Score:5, Interesting)

    by ackthpt ( 218170 ) * on Tuesday March 15, 2005 @07:34PM (#11948830) Homepage Journal
    [There are of course drawbacks.]

    1) Cost. The equipment and software necessary for this setup are beyond many gamers' means.

    The software isn't so bad, if it's the mentioned dunjinni package @ ~$40, but that projector is the backbreaker. Even lores projectors are a chunk of change. I know, as I've looked at them for a variety of causes, but just can't muster the green, yet.

    2) The task of scanning and editing printed maps is labor and skill intensive.

    My hope is that you could help me and any others that wish to use this technique by publishing this letter or similar instructions and by making high-resolution maps, which do not contain DM-only information, available for download.

    Ok, the map drawing/editing thingie doesn't strike me as bad, so long as you're a coder like me. I've already done a few simple applications which can paint hexes (so cartesian should be less difficult) any color and anywhere I like, I could even map brushes to create furniture or terrain. (the worst part would be shelling for the package I delveloped it in, which I have no intention of leaving it in, for what should be obvious reason.)

    Back in the day, though, for RPG's we didn't even use maps, but had the DM describe where we were and what we were to see. Kept it simple, so long as you remembered.

    • but that projector is the backbreaker How about putting a large old-style monitor under the table, you could play on top of some frosted glass...
    • I have a 640x480 sharp projector. It takes VGA, S-Video, and composite inputs. I will sell it to you with a VGA cable and a power cable for $100. It has both zoom and focus, and in a dark room it will supposedly generate a decent 20' image (on an appropriate surface.)

    • Minor nitpick (Score:3, Insightful)

      by serutan ( 259622 )
      The one thing I would change is that the DM has to tell the players to avert their eyes while he adjusts the mask to reveal selected areas of the map. It would be cool if the DM had a little better control over what went to the projector -- shut off the feed to the projector while changing the mask, or maybe have the software send only the unmasked layer to the projector.

      Other than that minor gripe, I totally envy this system. Pretty cool gaming room as well. Even with the overhead ductwork. Nice jorb!

    • Re:Immediate Impression (Score:5, Funny)

      by PMuse ( 320639 ) on Tuesday March 15, 2005 @09:17PM (#11949686)
      Chessex Battlemat: $13.95
      Vis-a-vis Markers (4 pack): $4.69
      DLP Projector: $1,479.00

      Leaving every game-geek on Slashdot with no better retort than "it-costs-too-much": priceless.

      • Re:Immediate Impression (Score:4, Informative)

        by rtrifts ( 61627 ) on Wednesday March 16, 2005 @01:49AM (#11951148) Homepage
        The initial poster is describing our gaming set-up actually.

        Our gaming circle e-bayed our DLP projector off of ebay for just less than $600 USD. It worked out to $120 CDN per member of our group.

        The D&D Core Rules cost $130. Keep it in perspective.

        We use our projector *every single session*. That's more than can be said for 99% of the gaming books I own. Maybe your group is different...but I doubt it.

        Too expensive? Nope. This is accessible and affordable technology. High power LEDs vy Luxeon promise to make this even cheaper in the next 3-5 years.

        Show me a gamer without $130 worth of gaming stuff purchased over the course of several months and I'll show you a gamer with a mean wife. :)

  • Hmm (Score:5, Funny)

    by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday March 15, 2005 @07:35PM (#11948837)
    Your parents sure let you do a number on your basement. It'll be a shame when they kick you out.

  • Do I still get to use... (Score:3, Funny)

    by Evil W1zard ( 832703 ) on Tuesday March 15, 2005 @07:35PM (#11948838) Journal
    My cardboard cut out dragon and magic tin-foil Helmet of Smiting.

  • Miniatures? (Score:5, Funny)

    by cranos ( 592602 ) on Tuesday March 15, 2005 @07:37PM (#11948855) Homepage Journal
    The last time I played D&D we didn't need no stinking miniatures, just some paper, dice and a shit load of caffinated beverages.

    Imagination is a wonderful thing.

    • Re:Miniatures? (Score:5, Interesting)

      by Ohreally_factor ( 593551 ) on Tuesday March 15, 2005 @08:31PM (#11949304) Journal
      Well, this is cool in the same way that various hardware hacks and case mods are cool. It's interesting that someone went and did this, and it's admirable that they came up with a pretty sweet solution.

      But the summary is a little. . . .I don't know, breathless? Quote: Gamemasters are reduced to drawing explored sections of the map on the playing surface with dry-erase markers or using cardboard tiles representing stretches of corridor. . .gamemaster labor is reduced. . . Oh the horror! Finally, a solution to all that drudgery GMs have had to put up with for thirty years! It's a wonder no one did this sooner. No longer will the GM have to put up with getting dry-erase smudges on his hands. No more back breaking labor as he leans over the table to draw a straight line. This is at least as revolutionary as refrigeration.

      But seriously, in the one long term campaign I was involved with for several years, the GM used little generic game pieces (from a Sorry or Parchesi board game) while each of the players used their own figurine to represent their character. We really only used this for marching order and combat. Combat was actually not that common. We spent entire afternoons role playing, rather than roll playing, especially when we needed to gather information.

      It helped a great deal that the GM was an actor, and acted out the parts of the NPCs and monsters believably. The interaction really was the best part.

      To be honest, this campaign really spoiled me. I haven't been seriously into RPGs since, because they're always slightly disappointing and lackluster. Modules are boring, hack and slash gets boring quickly, leveling gets boring. Maybe I've been unlucky, and I've encountered only one truly imaginative GM in my life.
    • He wasn't joking you see... I remember my times of playing D&D and we didn't use miniatures at all. Furthermore, ONE of us was making maps (the dedicated mapper) as the dungeon master described it to us. It was much more interesting that way because, if the map was lost, we would have to map again. Very interesting possibilities.

      And regarding computers, that was my plan back in 1992, use a computer to assist the dungeon master. Unfortunately, bringing my computer along with me was out of the question (

    • Re:Miniatures? (Score:3, Insightful)

      by Illserve ( 56215 )
      Imagination is better, all you need from maps is a rudimentary way to keep spatial configurations in mind. Once you start getting technical, the toys get in the way of the fun. You start worrying about details that are irrelevant to the story.

      D&D 3E has exemplified this point. At first the rigid system of running combat almost like a wargame seemed appealing, but several years down the line, it's obvious that this level of detail can derail a game.

      It doesn't always, it depends on the GM, but it cer

      • Re:Miniatures? (Score:3, Insightful)

        by rtrifts ( 61627 )
        Newer GMS? :roll:

        Dude. WE've been gaming since the late 70's. We use this setup for one reason and one reason only:

        IT's FREAKIN COOL.

        Our roleplaying and GMing skills are just fine thank-you-very-much. Our setup *rocks*. We love it - and there isn't a single gamer who has seen it whose eyes don't bug out of their heads and ask if we need a player.

        The "we just need our imagination" line is for people who don't have a projector. Pure and simple.

        You have one of these? You don't go back.
    • No shit buddy! I don't think it's even supposed to be done with figurines. Maybe some new scam to get more money out of the basement dwellers.
    • We used miniatures mostly because it settled disputes. We never invested in the real things, though. For the longest time, I was represented on the table as a poker chip. I had a friend who used an army man. We had a handful of 5-cent toy dinosaurs that served as whichever monster was needed at the time. Imagination still played a role, but having a tangible layout on the table just settles those, "Wait, are you even close enough to attack him?" disputes.
  • 19. Yeah, it won't suck too bad.

  • Urm.... (Score:5, Interesting)

    by Tyler Eaves ( 344284 ) on Tuesday March 15, 2005 @07:37PM (#11948861)
    Wouldn't it just be easier to run a multiplayer neverwinter nights session and project THAT on a table?
    • Yes, except you would completely miss out on the pen and paper factor that makes regular D&D as popular as it is today, even with NWN out.

    • Re:Urm.... (Score:4, Funny)

      by Ohreally_factor ( 593551 ) on Tuesday March 15, 2005 @09:06PM (#11949610) Journal
      Take it a step further.

      Everyone has their own table, and. . .(wait for it). . . you network them! Why, everyone could keep their table at home, and play across the internet. No need to even leave your house to go and play in someone's mom's basement.

      This is the future! (I think I better patent this idea.)
    • I find NWN campaigns *much* *much* longer and harder to build than PnP campaigns. All the scripting required in a quality NWN campaign isn't needed with PnP. A carefully tailored ambush is very hard to script, and doesn't look as good as:

      - Shhhhtoiink! An arrow on you shield!
      - I run to that big rock over there and take cover!
      - Hey! is there some place left behind that rock?
      - Yeah
      - Ok, I run behind it too.
      - Just before that, make a spot roll.
      - 19
      - Ok, you noticed a goblin in that tree at your left, and 3 ot

    • Re:Urm.... (Score:3, Interesting)

      by Worminater ( 600129 )
      If you think the gm has alot of work in dming live or with this system... try a custom NWN campaign...

      How exactly will you adequitly show the orc in the party pulling up his loincloth and urinating on the bar tender with the same level of hilarity to it? "/me pisses on bar tender" just doesnt have the same hilarity, just sounds juvinile in text...

      also; in campaigns i've been in we always have acts of arsen and the like; how would you factor that in as a solution? The openendedness of table top i dont

    • Re:Urm.... (Score:5, Informative)

      by rtrifts ( 61627 ) on Wednesday March 16, 2005 @02:00AM (#11951183) Homepage
      Of course it is. That's what we do. Jans Carton is a Mac user and a photographer. That's why he uses Photoshop.

      I use a Thnkpad and NWN. Running NWN's largest mod group doesn't hurt us on getting cool unreleaed tilesets for use with the projector either.

      IF you link to the original article on ENWorld, you'll see the DLP shots using NWN.

      There are more of them here:

      http://www.dladventures.net/iB/index.php?showtop ic =2386

      It's excellent as I can use the Toolset to whip up an encounter zone and detail it in 2 minutes. It would take me longer to use overhead pens and a battlemat.

  • Comment removed (Score:3, Informative)

    by account_deleted ( 4530225 ) on Tuesday March 15, 2005 @07:37PM (#11948864)
    Comment removed based on user account deletion
    • Look, the table is cool and so are miniatures, but "traditionally?"

      First time I ever saw a miniature outside of Warhammer context was that HeroQuest boardgame. The first five or six years I roleplayed, it was pen and paper and books (hence "pen and paper RPGs" not "miniatures and paper RPGs"). And I'm pretty young--so careful how you throw around "traditionally" d^_^b.

      Sorry, but no. Dungeons and Dragons was actually an evolution of a miniatures game. That means it's about as traditional as it gets.

    • Re:Traditional? (Score:5, Informative)

      by painandgreed ( 692585 ) on Tuesday March 15, 2005 @07:45PM (#11948951)

      Look, the table is cool and so are miniatures, but "traditionally?"

      Yes, traditionally. D&D started out as a modified set of minatures rules (Chainmail). Why do you thin that AD&D (1E) had all ranges and movements in inches whcih were later converted to feet (which differed if you were indoors or out)? Miniatures were for sell at just about every place that sold D&D stuff. TSR put out lots of minis although I prefered Ral Partha. Warhammer started out as a game to use the minis that GW made for D&D. Not everybody used them, and they weren't required, but the game was still based on the concept of usign minis.

      • "I prefered Ral Partha"

        Woot! Ral Partha! Yeah those were my favorites too. The detail on the minatures was way better than the stuff TSR put out.
        I wonder how much damage all that lead did to my body...

      • Re:Traditional? (Score:3, Interesting)

        by mesach ( 191869 )
        With todays exchange rates for the GBP i have about 50-60k in warhammer and warhammer 40k miniatures.

        at the time i could field a 100k army in each dwarf, empire, skaven, skeles and nurgle, for regular warhammer and squat, slann, imperial, and space wolves.

        Its all sitting in my old room at my parents house 1500 miles away, because it all toooo heavy to ship, (these were the lead ones) I recently got into painting diaoramas and I went and showed the guys at the local GWstore and thier jaws dropped at sing p

      • Re:Traditional? (Score:3, Informative)

        by Anonymous Coward
        Well, this is old news now but for what it's worth:
        RPGs as we know them certainly did evolve out of table top war games, but not necessarily chainmail. Dave Arneson & Gary Gygax, co-creators of D&D, had both been playing table top war games for quite a while when Arneson started to develop a very small scale version of the table top battles normally using hundreds of miniatures centered around skirmishing instead. Rules got more complex as the number of protaganists decreased and eventually the scen

      • Re:Traditional? (Score:3, Informative)

        by stonecypher ( 118140 ) *
        Sorry. Chainmail was the set of miniatures rules extracted from 2nd edition AD&D. D&D evolved from an older british game called "Tunnels and Trolls," arguably hybridized with a little known Conan-themed RPG called "Royal Armies of the Hyborean Age," and was the first thing gygax/TSR made.

        Why do you thin that AD&D (1E) had all ranges and movements in inches whcih were later converted to feet (which differed if you were indoors or out)?

        Because 1st edition AD&D was the first D&D to di
    • First time I ever saw a miniature outside of Warhammer context was that HeroQuest boardgame. The first five or six years I roleplayed, it was pen and paper and books (hence "pen and paper RPGs" not "miniatures and paper RPGs"). And I'm pretty young--so careful how you throw around "traditionally" d^_^b.

      Holy smokes, I feel old. We played D&D in a sandbox in the backyard back in the day. Then they came out with this fancy pencil and paper stuff around '75 (if this old brain remembers correctly).

      I
      • When I was a kid, we played pencil+paper too (early 80s). And as a destitute 6th grader, the price of p+p was perfect! ;-)
      • Dude, you guys were rolling in luxury! What a cool school you must have had to lay that out for you in a formal club. We were lucky to be able to come up with the occasional cash to purchase the new (at the time) crystal dice. Remember those? They wanted a couple of bucks per die and it took me forever (as DM) to collect enough to replace and supplement the plain brown dice that came with my red box.

        It's funny that you mention the whole biblical scare thing too as we had a Southern Baptist neighbor tha

    • Re:Traditional? (Score:3, Informative)

      by pmancini ( 20121 )
      Back in 1980 when I got started in D&D we used miniatures. The tradition started when the original game designers expanded upon the game Chainmail which they were playing with miniatures.

      So, just because you are an inexperienced first level whelp doesn't mean that the use of "tradition" here has any less meaning. ;-)

      P.S. I moved on to the Hero System long, long ago leaving D&D in the dust.

  • Lens Cleaning Package (Score:2, Funny)

    by Anonymous Coward
    Any news on how much it'll cost to clean cheetoh goo off the lens?

  • Computer Graphics? (Score:5, Funny)

    by coopaq ( 601975 ) on Tuesday March 15, 2005 @07:38PM (#11948872)
    projector mounted on the ceiling and projecting an image of the visible map onto the tabletop.

    Cool... so with the projector you also get realtime shadows!

    And the DM can have the Dragon's shadow show up via hand puppet gestures!

    Of course the Raging One Finger of Darnisus will probably be the most popular creature shadowed on the board.

  • Make Sure You Buy It Anonymously (Score:4, Funny)

    by Evil W1zard ( 832703 ) on Tuesday March 15, 2005 @07:38PM (#11948875) Journal
    Otherwise the Israeli Intelligence Services might be able to track your purchase and then you won't get a high-paying position with them!
  • The projector should be on the floor and rear project on the playing surface. That way you don't have the nasty shadows when are interacting with the miniatures.
    • No, the projector should be at one end of the room, and your players feet should be nailed to the wall around the projection screen. If anyone complains about the shadows, simply say, "I don't think I've secured you well enough. I think you need another nail."
  • A few years ago, I attempted to construct a landscape for Warhammer/Warhammer 40,000 games, and it was a lot easier than I thought it would be....my plan was to make a large field, split in the centre by a river (two fords for armies to cross) and some buildings here and there, aswell as rocks.

    Generally for water, dried Poly Vinyl Acetate (PVA) adhevise serves well for water, obviously rocks and pebbles, aswell as grit can be used for its banks.

    I had two buildings, ruined cottages beside my river, largely

  • Times have changed... (Score:5, Insightful)

    by digitalhermit ( 113459 ) on Tuesday March 15, 2005 @07:44PM (#11948931) Homepage
    Wow, I remember D&D being an almost pure mind-game. This was back in 1985-90. There were some really good DMs, some who went on to be writers and at least one who went into film production. The most we did was darken the room and clear a spot to throw dice. No lead figurines, no physical maps, just dice and a character sheet. Maybe I'm just being an old fogey, but I think I'd prefer the old way than all these props.

    • Re:Times have changed... (Score:5, Insightful)

      by DerekLyons ( 302214 ) <fairwater@gGIRAF ... minus herbivore> on Tuesday March 15, 2005 @08:27PM (#11949271) Homepage
      Maybe I'm just being an old fogey, but I think I'd prefer the old way than all these props.
      Those 'props' are the 'old way'. Gamers were using figures and attempting to build various kinds of dedicated tables from very early on.
      Wow, I remember D&D being an almost pure mind-game. This was back in 1985-90.
      By then D&D was an ancient greybeard. Back in the mid-70's, when it started, it was very much a minatures game. By the time I started playing (1979), it has already started the shift to being a game of imagination. (Though /me fondly remembers the old Martian Metals figurine ads on the back of every Dragon.)
    • Times have not changed. I would say most serious gamers still just play with a few dice, a character sheet, and some scrap paper. It's all imagination based, like it's always been.

      Sometimes a part of a game (like combat) can require sketching out the geometry (or using coins or even figurines as stand-ins for character locations). Other times, it can be fun to generate 3D maps of a building or ship or whatever. But ultimately, it boils down to imagination, and when you're highly concentrated on the role-pl
    • Minatures clarify just who is where during combat. Makes it a lot more realistic (no more characters teleporting from enemy to enemy).

  • Dungeon Crawls (Score:3, Insightful)

    by Brandybuck ( 704397 ) on Tuesday March 15, 2005 @07:44PM (#11948939) Homepage Journal
    This is only necessary for dungeon crawls. This is a very minor subgroup of RPG gaming. In fact, it's very hard to justify the "R" in the acronym in dungeon crawls.

  • Automated table-top gaming (Score:5, Insightful)

    by nicophonica ( 660859 ) on Tuesday March 15, 2005 @07:45PM (#11948948)
    I'm sure there are people who will make good use of this. But I am reminded of a piece of software that TSR produced in the 80s called the Dungeon Master's Familiar or some such thing. The idea is that you could load the payer's, henchmen, NPC's and monster's statistics into the computer, which would then perform all of the combat dice rolling and computations. How I longed for the program! How I fantasized about how thrilling my games would be when I was freed from the tedium of dice rolling, hit point tallying and round management! How disappointed I was when I actually got the game, lugged my computer to card table where we played and discovered that that the computer actually caused more administrative problems then it solved and worse, became the center of the game, utterly shattering the story-telling element.

    By contrast the best D&D that I played in, I admit to being a fairly mediocre DM, was in a group that played very fast loose with the rules, w/o miniatures, w/o maps. Just you, the DM and your imagination.

  • table...? Wha...? (Score:4, Funny)

    by TiggertheMad ( 556308 ) on Tuesday March 15, 2005 @07:45PM (#11948950) Journal
    Who plays D&D with a table? What's wrong with the woods behind my parent's house?

    LIGHTNING BOLT! LIGHTNING BOLT! LIGHTNING BOLT!

  • Hell no!! (Score:5, Funny)

    by chinakow ( 83588 ) on Tuesday March 15, 2005 @07:46PM (#11948956)
    My DM made us draw a map, but first he made sure someone bought paper and had a feather quill and ink, then we looked for someone with mapping skill. :-)

  • Not Approved (Score:4, Funny)

    by SenorPez ( 840621 ) on Tuesday March 15, 2005 @07:47PM (#11948966) Homepage
    The Israeli army would not approve of your ingenuity.

  • Hidden Area (Score:3, Funny)

    by Rac3r5 ( 804639 ) on Tuesday March 15, 2005 @07:47PM (#11948967)
    The hidden area of the map contained scenes from what it would look like if u actually went outside.

  • Expensive (Score:4, Informative)

    by Audacious ( 611811 ) on Tuesday March 15, 2005 @07:52PM (#11949007) Homepage
    The expensive part isn't the laptop (which you can now get for around $500.00) but the projector. The least expensive projector I've found is around $1,000.00 now but doesn't do a good job in bright light (such as is found in a house). Also, you have to have a halfway descent amount of room to play/project the pictures.

    I experimented (once) with putting the projector (a REALLY cheap/bad projector I found at college) under a plexiglass table top but the dice rolling on the table top was so loud it made playing unenjoyable.

    However, someone gave me an idea on how to actually do this cheaply only not being an electrical engineer I never did it like they told me to. Maybe someone else would like to try it? The idea is to take a thick piece of cardboard (like that found in really sturdy corrigated boxes). Draw a grid onto the cardboard box or get one of those cheap plastic layers which already have a grid printed on them (but aren't so hard as to be like plexiglass). Depending on whether you draw or overlay the cardboard you go buy a bunch of those tiny leds for toy trains and such and put one in each of the squares (centered). Here is where the engineering comes in: You have to have all of those wires go back to some kind of a black box which has a cable going back to the computer. Using the computer you turn on or off the various leds. I was told it wouldn't be that hard but I tried a small board (1ft by 1ft) and couldn't get the electronics to work. It was cheap though. The lights cost only about $30.00. The piece of cardboard was about $5.00 and I just drew the squares. The closest I came to making the whole thing work was when I just got a bunch of on/off toggle switches at Radio Shack, mounted them on a metal surface, and just flicked them on and off in whatever pattern I needed. It worked ok. Probably a bigger area would look a lot better. :-/

    I have also been working on an idea where laptops are used. The central server is the ref's machine and everyone else uses their browser to move around in the game. (Unfortunately, I just wiped my entire hard drive accidentally. Bought a new hard drive but referenced the wrong one when I went to partition it. I'm looking at recovery software to get everything back. I have never been so despressed as when I realized what I had done. And yes - I have backups but the last backup was about two months ago. :-( )

    • Re:Expensive (Score:5, Informative)

      by syukton ( 256348 ) * on Tuesday March 15, 2005 @08:26PM (#11949247)
      In July, Mitsubishi's PocketProjector [mitsubishielectric.com] will hit the market with an MSRP of $699. It sits in the palm of your hand and is driven by one each of Red, Green and Blue super-bright Luxeon LEDs manufactured by Lumileds. There was a bit on slashdot about it last month, I believe. I mention the light source only because replacing lamps in a projector is usually the most frequent maintenance cost. LEDs don't burn out as quickly as conventional lamps do; they're rating these at 20,000 hours and I'd be willing to bet that they'd work for even longer. (At an average 5 hours per day it should last for 10 years, they say)

    • Re:Expensive (Score:3, Interesting)

      by digitalgiblet ( 530309 )
      "I have also been working on an idea where laptops are used. The central server is the ref's machine and everyone else uses their browser to move around in the game."

      I was thinking of something similar, but using wifi enabled PDAs. Trouble is I quit playing RPGs more than 15 years ago... doh!

      Whenever I learn to program in a new language or on a new device, first thing I think of is RPGs. I've written character generators for everything from the Commodore Vic 20 up through Java.

      Most fun thing I ever ma

    • The least expensive projector I've found is around $1,000.00 now but doesn't do a good job in bright light (such as is found in a house).

      This is meant the the dimly lit D&D player's bedroom, i.e., mom's basement.
  • Aside from the startup labor of actually setting the thing up. The labor to earn the bucks to pay for it. The secondary problems of making certain that the people using it understand it. The extra gm labor of making certain that all of a sudden ever character hasn't acquired a phase door ability.

    How is mapping on a laptop easier and less labor than using a pencil and graph paper ?

  • WTF? (Score:5, Funny)

    by gstoddart ( 321705 ) on Tuesday March 15, 2005 @07:56PM (#11949038) Homepage

    dry-erase markers?
    laptop?
    software?
    Tabletop Mapper?
    1600 lumen DLP projector?
    dynamic map?

    Good lord. 30 years ago the military would have spent several (hundred?) million dollars on something like this.

    And people are using this for Dungeons and Dragons?

    Christ, we used to sprawl out in my friend's rec-room.

    God I'm old.
    • You're not kidding. We'd put cardboard on the windows to block out the light, move the dining room table over a few feet, and have just enough light to see the dice rools. This was a slight improvement over the first game I ever played -- in a library with the occasional evil stare and shush from the librarians.

      D&D was a whole lotta fun... but I'll admit that the most engrossing "experience" was with a Call of Cthulhu module. We'd entered the study of the obligatory missing scientist's house, browsed
    • dry-erase markers? $4.95
      laptop? $1999.95
      software? $29.95
      1600 lumen DLP projector? $2499.95

      Realizing that you just spent $4500 in the most nerdish game ever? Priceless.

      There are things that cannot be bought. For everything else, there's the Dungeon Mastercard.

  • No they aren't. (Score:2, Informative)

    by Qbertino ( 265505 )
    No RPG's aren't 'usually' played with figures. Those are called tabletop games. D&D isn' or wasn't for a long period either. Allthough D&D did originally start out as a pure non-RPG tabletop. That's why it sucks so much as a pen and paper RPG compared to pure RPG systems like Torg or hybrid RPG systems such as Midgard or Silouette.
  • I suppose next, rather than bother with scanning an existing map or drawing a new one, the GM will simply run NetHack on the laptop with some dressed-up graphics. The players will never know the difference.

    :-),
    Schwab

  • When I played D&D we made a map on graph paper, rolled our dice and hoped the Dungeonmaster hadn't had a bad night.

    If you want to do minatures go and do Warhammer. Better yet, go off with those crazy wargamers who recreate things like the Battle of Waterloo in minature where the minatures really matter.

    Looks like the game is going to get submerged in all the paraphenalia and you're going to spend your time worrying about the colour of your characters skin and whether it looks quite right 'in this ligh

  • What they really want is ... (Score:3, Interesting)

    by LaminatorX ( 410794 ) <sabotage@nOSPAM.praecantator.com> on Tuesday March 15, 2005 @08:20PM (#11949209) Homepage
    ...a Smart Tech [smattech.com] Smart Board [smarttech.com]rotated 90 degrees. Not only can you write on them, but it will digitize the writing into the computer.
  • We built a table out of a large door that we coated with paint that was able to be drawn on easily with chalk. We drew a grid on it and voila...the DM could use chalk to his heart's content. One of the things I liked about pen and paper gaming was there was no high tech required.

  • This man (Score:5, Funny)

    by BluedemonX ( 198949 ) on Tuesday March 15, 2005 @08:48PM (#11949471)
    Oooh! You rolled a critical miss on your saving throw against staying a virgin into your eighties.

    Why not return to Bigby's Bed of Eternal Solitude and cast grasping fist repeatedly and often!

  • All this rig needs is an electric hookah on the table. Those guys are in loser heaven!

  • So close and yet... (Score:5, Interesting)

    by Viking Coder ( 102287 ) on Tuesday March 15, 2005 @09:06PM (#11949608)
    Picture this - put a web cam RIGHT next to the projector, aimed down at the table.

    Now, on each of your miniatures (the characters, the monsters, etc.) you put a tiny set of LEDs, blinking in a certain pattern.

    The webcam can recognize each object by seeing the LEDs blinking in a certain order, and can even figure out which way they are facing.

    Now, all of a sudden, you've got your physical objects mapped back into your virtual space. What's the point?

    Ragnar (played by Dave) wants to cast a fireball spell. So Dave pulls out the "Spell" miniature, and the DM punches up "Fireball" on a list. Now, as Dave drags the spell miniature around on the board, a little (projected, virtual) dashed line stretches from the Ragnar miniature to the spell miniature. Around the spell miniature is an animation of a fireball exploding, set to the appropriate radius (20' in virtual space.) Dave can easily see if Ragnar's spell can go far enough, and how many people (good guys and bad) would be affected by different placements of the spell.

    You also get to immediately measure how many distance increments your character is from the bad guy he's throwing a dagger at.

    All sorts of things start turning out to be easy and cool.

    Why bother with the physical objects? Because nothing's as cool as reaching out and grabbing something real and moving it interactively (which begs the question of why people play D&D instead of rugby). It's like a mouse to the power of 5. Plus, all the players can fiddle with measurements and stuff simultaneously.

    Yes, you could also just pass around a wireless mouse, and move around virtual miniatures, instead. Probably pretty close to the same experience.

    Instead of the "look-away" part of what these guys have to do, I think it would be awesome to have a dual-monitor set-up - but not many laptops let you drive two independent monitors. One monitor the players can see, one the DM can see. Drop in a wireless PDA or two for passing messages back and forth between players and DM (Rogue: "I steal the amulet!"), and you're cooking. *grin*

    I didn't come up with this webcam + LEDs idea - I just have thought about how it would apply to Dungeons and Dragons. I first saw this kind of set up on a SIGGRAPH DVD, back in 2001. They were using it to play with how buildings would cast shadows and warp wind patterns. They also simulated a virtual holograph-making system. It was amazing to watch this video go. I can't remember the name of the group for the life of me. Can someone post a link? I gotta dig up that DVD!

  • A Good Idea, by not the ULTIMATE.... (Score:5, Interesting)

    by Jason Scott ( 18815 ) on Tuesday March 15, 2005 @10:16PM (#11950134) Homepage
    I waited until the traffic died down, to say that while I appreciate the ingenuity with the use of a projector (and there's lots of others cool things this approach could take), this is hardly the "Ultimate RPG Table".

    No, my friends, this [agyris.net] is the ultimate RPG table.

    I am taken with how much effort and thought the creator of that table put together in planning, executing, and documenting his work. Truly, it's a work of art and quality far beyond a simple application of an LCD projector.

    Best of all, it's a version 1.0 and additional refinements are to come.

    Disclaimer: I don't play any of this stuff, but I know quality when I see it.

  • Use Klooge.Werks, use Dundjinni (Score:3, Informative)

    by xant ( 99438 ) on Wednesday March 16, 2005 @12:06AM (#11950722) Homepage
    Give two things a try: try Klooge.Werks [kloogeinc.com] for dice handling, miniature display and map obscurement, and try Dundjinni [dundjinni.com] for creating stunning--gorgeous--maps with little effort. These two products deserve tons more users, and they make the game easier to run for the DM and more fun for the players. And those of you talking about "roll playing" -- I hear you, babe. I try to run the most ROLE campaign I possibly can, and KW only helps me do that. Once everyone knows how to use the program, which can be done in a single half-hour training session, play is smooth and you can resolve combat quickly and accurately so you get to the interesting stuff.

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