Thompson Vs. Jenkins On VG Violence 103
1up.com has a feature up including side-by-side interviews with Anti-Gaming Muckraker Jack Thompson and Prof. Henry Jenkins. The site manages to ask both proponents some tough questions, and they get some realistic answers in response. From the article's Jenkins interview: "Education is the key, not legislation. If you heavily regulate the industry it will narrow what games are in the market, and retailers will only carry content that is suitable for the youngest of players. Retailers won't carry a Mature-rated game if you move to an enforceable system. We saw this with the comic industry in the '50s. The other way to approach this problem is to put the burden on the consumer. We have to educate."
My experience... (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:My experience... (Score:2)
Re:My experience... (Score:2)
Re:My experience... (Score:2)
Re:My experience... (Score:5, Insightful)
Abusive parents, negligant parents, abusive students at school, being teased, beat up, shoved into lockers, having problems ignored by teachers (basically making it a breeding ground for you to get beat up), competition for girls, attention, drinking, drugs, grades, religious ideaologies that teach you to hate anyone different than you, etc... clearly those things don't combine to make a poor little kid violent. And that's why you only see popular, beefy, successful, town-beloved jocks going on shooting sprees and never neglected outcasts from violent/dangerous/abusive homes.
Re:My experience... (Score:3, Interesting)
About the most violent thing I can think of that I played was Doom. Which is comically cartoony compared to stuff like Manhunt or the newer GTAs. Or hell, any modern FPS. Mortal Kombat is also NOTHING compared to what we have now. Go back and play it. Not only are the situations found within ridiculous, but the graphics are downright tame. I've
Re:My experience... (Score:2)
The problem is not with enforcing game ratings. The problem is believing that violent games cause violent tendencies.
Alcohol, in excessive amounts, has been known to cause violence and reckless behavior in individuals. Smoking causes second-hand pollutants which endanger other people. How does playing Metal Gear Solid 3 on my PS2 harm anyone directly?
Why should there be any blame with respect to game
Re:My experience... (Score:1)
Well, I could run to a local college library and pull up a slew of case studies that say actual exposure to violence during various stages of development produces a variety or reactions, one of the possible ones being an increased propensity towards violence. Exposure in this case being domestic abuse, growing up in a war zone, going to war, witnessing gangland violence first hand and the like with v
Re:My experience... (Score:5, Insightful)
Violent experiences are real. Violent images on a TV screen generated by the latest from Carmack is fake. I think most 10 year olds can tell the difference (even with the improvements in graphics).
The pro-gaming expert has nothing to do with my opinion. I was stating what the problem was as I saw it, not as he saw it.
You may not have said it explicitly, but you did so implicitly. By saying that the blame should be put on parents for buying those games, you are implicitly saying that buying those games for kids is wrong. That is to say, you agree that violent games cause violent tendencies. Unless you have something against Valve, I can't see why else you would think so.
Let's see. Smoking causes lung cancer. Exhaled pollutants from smokers includes part of those carcinogens. Anyone near a smoker could be taking that in those pollutants. What am I missing?
I don't see how parents buying their kids kegs on the weekends are doing anything wrong. If they believe that their kids can handle it and are old enough, why not? We're all not the same. People don't grow alcohol-resistant organs from 17yrs 364days to 18yrs 0days. It's a rule of thumb that's been extended too far. The good thing about parents who buy kegs for their kids is that they can control the intake. Better in their house than somewhere outside with no one who can assume responsibility.
I read the comments just fine thank you. Just because I disagree does not make me a karma-whoring slashbot. The word you're looking for is dissenter [reference.com].
Re:My experience... (Score:1)
Yup. Poverty is another risk factor. Indifference and injustice, now you're just trying to turn a phrase. If you can point out where I said violent video games caused an increase in risk, I'll eat my hat. You can't, because I never said that. I didn't even imply i
Re:My experience... (Score:2)
Like I said later on, you implied it. By saying that there was blame to be put on parents, you are saying that there is blame to begin with, i.e. that violent games for kids is wrong, at least in part.
There is a difference between "It shuts up the social conservatives who can then shift the blame onto..." and "It shuts up the social conservatives, shifting the blame onto...". The forme
Re:My experience... (Score:1)
Look up contributing the delinquency of a minor in your local law books.
Why do federal highway regulators believe that people grow alcohol-resistant organs from 20yrs 364days to 21yrs 0days? (This question is to all, not just to you.)
Re:My experience... (Score:2)
Which is that they're too lazy to stop and think about what it is they're trying to measure. They think "Gee, you really should be mature before you s
Re:My experience... (Score:1)
Any parent that does such a thing is simply afraid of being hypocrtical. They are more than likly alcoholics. The "do as I say, not as I do" mentality has been lost from such a home. Obviously such "parents" never have and never will know the first thing about parenting.
If you're gonna tell me the "do as I say, not as I do" mentality doesnt work, and that parents should "set an example" then you simply have an
Correlation is not causation (Score:3, Interesting)
EGM: So, what's next on the agenda for you?
JT: [A lawsuit regarding] a multiple loss of life by a teenager who played Vice City.
This is a typical argument against games. Suppose it could be proved that the same teenager ate hamburgers. Are they going to sue McDonald's and Burger King?
There's no evidence, either experimental or logical, to imply that the violent game caused a violent behavior. The causation could well go in the other direction. Probably people who have a tendency to violent behavio
Re:My experience... (Score:2)
While the experience of one person is not totally without merit, it's very close to that when working with a correlational claim.
Re:My experience... (Score:2)
Re:My experience... (Score:3, Insightful)
Sorry, man. It may be that in fact Mortal Kombat doesn't deaden your empathy, but if you want to prove it you need to bring out the big guns and switch to humane traps that don't kill the mice.
Personally, I'm pretty amazed at how many chances to make games that don't *require* killing to play
Re:My experience... (Score:2)
Re:My experience... (Score:2)
I don't think you should worry too much. From my side, I find all the simulated blood and gore disturbing, and when I was playing Matrix and got shot in the back, it was really disturbing. I used to really enjoy adventure games back in the day, and even D&D (which is pretty bloody - you just go around killing things to amass experience points, very much like the Matrix). So anyway I'm not terribly surprised that someone else takes it the way I do, and
Re:My experience... (Score:2)
Re:My experience... (Score:2)
That guy, cracking down on video game violence, probably thinks he actually is cracking down on the root of violence.
Now, I do understand that there are some very mentally disturbed kids out there that should not be playing video games, especially violent ones. And I don't think any kid/teen n
Re:My experience... (Score:3, Interesting)
BTW, what makes you say Tetris is a peaceful game? It's a control-freakitude game. A peaceful game would be one where you score more experience points by protecting the characters you see in the game than you do by killing them - that is, where you have a choice, and the nonviolent choice is preferred. Oh, and it has to be fun, too. Not impossible, by any means, but not something I see a lot of.
Re:My experience... (Score:2)
They have games like this.. is this a point everyone is missing? There is a wide variety of games out there... not all of them are about killing or destruction...
My kid loves Zoo Tycoon, and roller coaster tycoon, but she also enjoys playing WC3 with me and her brother...
I thought I had a point... where did that point go? *looks at feet*
Re:My experience... (Score:2, Interesting)
This shows just how much our society salivates for violence. There are plenty of non-violent games out there, but it seems like all the popular games always involve blowing the crap out of your enemy. Look at the biggest selling games in the U.S. (GTA:san andreas, Halo2, Half-life 2, Doom 3). Nintendo is big on making games that involve very little violence. You would think people might welcome this, but instead, Nintendo is slammed as t
Re:My experience... (Score:1)
Example: the most violent thing you could do in Animal Crossing was hit the animals on the head with your bug-catching net. After you did it a couple times, though, they'd start crying and run away.
Still, that'll teach that froggy bastard not to send me stupid stuff in the mail anymore. "I hope you like it, ribbit," indeed...
Re:My experience... (Score:1)
Re:My experience... (Score:2)
I can tell you a similar story. Most of us probably could. It seems to me that most video game players can relate to this mentality. Which begs the question: Have the pe
Re:My experience... (Score:1)
The only question I have is, is it relevant to the argument?
I grew up on the 8-bit and atari generation. By the time the SNES and things like doom hit, I was in my teens. Now, I'm in my 20s. The games have grown more and more realistic, in fact they strive for realism. I see no current indications of this trend reversing.
So, are our experiences... are the current studies which can't show any statistically significant relationship between violent video game play and later violent
Jack Thompson... (Score:2, Funny)
Oh Bullshit. (Score:3, Interesting)
In fact, it's a counterproductive sales tool because millions of kids want the Mature-rated games.
Why do kids want M rated games? I can think back to being a kid. "This game looks fun, I think I'll play this." First off, it wasn't specifically that the game was rated M that I wanted to play the game. However, I got told by my mom "No, you can't play that - it's for older kids." When you're not allowed to have something that you want, then you want it even more - that's how the human mind works, especially in children. I don't think he gets this.
Re:Oh Bullshit. (Score:2)
Not to mention that this guy is like 50 years old... they didn't even HAVE video games when he was a kid...
more crap from this guy's mouth (Score:5, Insightful)
Playing the Left/Right game? Give me a fuckin' break. This guy is probably just saying these things to try to make money, but in the process he is really trying my restraint. I suppose he might throw in extra insult by trying to say that such a feeling demonstrates his point.
Re:more crap from this guy's mouth (Score:5, Interesting)
But what the hell is mental molestation? I think this guy's just going for an emotional kick.
Also, I don't know if this guy's noticed, but the Communist party - which preaches about the violent overthrow of the US government - is protected under the first amendment. So videogames should be as well. But, just because the speech is free does not mean you have to listen. Parents can still stop their kids from playing these games if they're really that worried. By this guy's standards, I should be shooting my mouth off while killing my teachers with a glock. It's all BS.
I agree... (Score:3, Insightful)
hrm... educate or legislate (Score:2, Insightful)
I really hope that people get the right to choose rather than being told what they can and cannot do... that is not freedom, it is slavery!
Just from an outsiders PoV it seems that the american people are more and more putting the burden of things onto someone elses shoulders... eg - manufactures of drills warning not to put th
Re:hrm... educate or legislate (Score:2)
But at the same time, so many americans are quick to complain about how they're being victimized, there are so many people eager to try get rich quick schemes, and there are so many people who don't want to take any responsibi
Columbine, my case in point. (Score:4, Insightful)
It should.
Thompsons statement regarding terrorist training through videogames such as Full-Spectrum Warrior is, I hope, hyperbolic prima facae to most of you. Much, much, more training and planning goes into acts of terrorism than Thompson seems to give them credit for (it's a little bit more than shoot the enemy when you see him pop up on the screen).
Saying that restricting the export of tactical videogames to foreign countries under say, the EAR or ITAR, would obviously not stem the tide of violence in Iraq and around the world just as restricting violence in videogames will not stop these children, who are under severe emotional strain or experiencing deep depression, or even beginining to show signs of a personality disorder, from acting out violently. Columbine was perpetrated by children who had severe social and emotional problems, and who were left alone to create pipe bombs and amass weapons in their basement. This was partly a failure of supervision by the parents and, OC partly beyond their control. Columbine had nothing to do with videogames.
Shame on Mr. Thompson for invoking terrorism as a reason for restricting videogame sales.
Don't cheapen their sacrifice, ambulance chaser.
Re:Columbine, my case in point. (Score:1)
Which resulted in my screaming at two dead people and throwing a PS2 controller at the TV, pissed that those two idiots ruined video gemas for the rest of us.
Re:Columbine, my case in point. (Score:1)
Re:Columbine, my case in point. (Score:1)
Re:Columbine, my case in point. (Score:1)
Re:Columbine, my case in point. (Score:1)
Gary Johnston: 9/11 times a hundred? Jesus, that's...
Spottswoode: Yes, 91,100.
Chris: Basically, all the worst parts of the bible.
what are you doing to solve this? (Score:5, Insightful)
that has got to be the biggest spin of all time...
look, jack even said education was part of the solution, and henry made a very good point... Unlike the previous generation, at least many young parents today have grown up playing games, so they will know that not all games are appropriate for young kids.
i know my mom was very interested in what games i was playing while i was growing up and even more interested in what i was watching on TV...
my father was in the coin op business since the 70's. ive grown up around video games, hunting, guns, and the military...if any one should be ready to snap and go on a personal black ops mission...its me. and frankly, i think i "normal".
i can tell the difference between fantasy and reality. and i dont take joy in seeing others suffer.
this burden lies with the parents. if they would take a proactive role in their childs life alot of stuff like teen violence and teen pregancy would be on the decline instead of the rise.
but now since both parents are typically working, who is doing the parenting...britney spears and tommy lee...tommy verciti and lara croft...Jenna Jameson and ron jeremy...
people need to look at what they are doing within their own family units to solve the problem. do your kids play violent video games...are the games you child plays approiate for his age...this just takes some good old fashioned parenting. thats it thats all.
Re:what are you doing to solve this? (Score:1)
DISCLAIMER: IANALC (Little Kid)
Re:what are you doing to solve this? (Score:3, Insightful)
The army's looked at the usefullness of video games as training simulations, we've seen it on slashdot time and again. Overall, however, they've found that they don't work. At least not games in the way we get them as consumers. They have more immersive simulations that involve functional firearms with projections of targets, which are basi
Re:what are you doing to solve this? (Score:2)
Re:what are you doing to solve this? (Score:2)
Like when she asks me if she looks fat in a dress, thats the time i look for the F5 key...
No one thought of this? (Score:2)
Why are we so interested in this country in telling people they can't do something just because someone else did something wrong? Why can't we have some sort of incentive for parents not to ignore or abuse their kids? We're dealing with symptoms instead of causes, which hurts
i'm certainly not a fan of Jack-o. (Score:5, Insightful)
Why is it always the It's-not-our-fault's vs. the libertarians?
Statistics are screwed too. (Score:4, Insightful)
"...a Gallop poll found 71 percent of all U.S teenage boys who played Vice City were twice as likely to have been engaged in an act of violence."
What? 71 percent were twice as likely? Is this some kind of maths problem?
And:
"Well, let's look at deaths in and around schools. In 2004, there were 48 in number. In 2003, there were 16. In 2002, there were 17. Yes, the death rate in which murderous actions have taken place has gone down, but there are other factors such as the shortening of ambulance response time, better medical techniques, and so forth."
I really don't think 3 years of statistics where the first two years are the same gives much of an idea of the trend. Look at say 20 years, so that we could at least compare the statistics for times before violent games were common. Violent games existed way before 2002.
Giles
Re:Statistics are screwed too. (Score:1)
After all, it was just a poll, not a research or a study conducted to find the relation between video games and aggressiveness.
I have no idea how they arrived with that figure by just conducting a survey/poll. A survey alone wouldn't answer that violent games are the cause for teenage violence. How can they be so sure with the reliability of the answers? After all, maybe aggressive teenagers just like to play violent games. That doesn't mean that violent games are the one who causes them to become aggressi
Re:Statistics are screwed too. (Score:1)
I don't agree with it, but the wording is correct. He's saying that out of a control group, 71% that played vice city were twice as likely to commit crimes than people who did not.
Think of it like this. Yo
Re:Statistics are screwed too. (Score:2)
Re:Statistics are screwed too. (Score:2)
Holy crap, I didn't even see that. Why doesn't he say something like "the number of people shot in and around schools" rather than the number of deaths? Methinks he's doing it
Re:i'm certainly not a fan of Jack-o. (Score:2)
Not On Slashdot Homepage??? (Score:1)
The Basic Facts (Score:2, Insightful)
The notion that the console/game/rating system ect... are all in 'chaoots' seems to make me think that perhaps he working under a conspiracy theory. While I grant you that all the companies have a vested i
Re:The Basic Facts (Score:2)
When you're operating under a conspiracy theory, all opposition from any quarter is a part of the conspiracy, or controlled by the conspiracy. If the judge rules against him, he's in cahoots. If the jury doesn't give him a verdict, they were paid off.
With most reasonable theories, counter evidence is counter evidence. With conspiracy theories, counter evidence, in fact, b
Fuck Thompson (Score:2)
He's a media whore, he's in it for the money; nothing more.
Whenever you see him on TV, whenever you hear him on the radio, whenever he's making a public appearance confront him. Expose him for what he is.
LK
Re:Fuck Thompson (Score:1)
Re:Fuck Thompson (Score:2)
His response was that they modified Doom so that the demons and zombies looked like some of their classmates.
My response was that if they were playing a modified game, then you can't blame iD software because it's no longer the product that they released.
His resp
An Immodest Proposal (Score:2)
But Thompson makes no such rational arguments. He doesn't even make arguments that can be evaluated at
Re:An Immodest Proposal (Score:1)
Like somebody else once said about cartoons, not once have I ever had the urge to hit someone with an anvil..
Re:An Immodest Proposal (Score:2)
I have, many times... argggh!!! But I know it will just make the person look like an accordian and they will blow into their thumb to restore themselves....
Waste of time... what I think would be better is to make the person try to catch me on an ACME rocket, and then he will be blown up while I eat my birdseed LROFLRO pwned!!!
Inaccurate simulators (Score:3, Insightful)
In the vast majority of cases of murder or maiming or other violent acts, the victim is usually known to be screaming out in pain, or anguish, or some other sort of emotion which is not portrayed in these types of games.
This stark contrast to reality is being ignored, and in the process we will see plenty of extra curbs to the choices that we make for ourselves.
In other jurisdictions, video games all fall under the corresponding censorship legislation, and as such is treated in just the same way as books, movies, magazines, etc. We have different classifications of movies, and we don't see the movie studios getting sued because of parents purchasing/hiring adult movies for their children. The same similar practise should be in place for video games.
I agree that there is some level of responsibility placed on the retailers to ensure compliance, but beyond that anyone can create/sell anything so long as it is legal. The burden of responsibility of consumption of the product still largely lies with the people making purchases.
Is this Irony? (Score:2, Insightful)
EGM: Does your 12-year-old son play videogames?
JT: Not anything above an E
So by his logic his own son is playing violent video games somewhere else.
Perhaps he'll turn into a homicidal maniac and kill his dad?
Re:Is this Irony? (Score:1)
We can only hope.
Please! No more anecdotal evidence (Score:2, Interesting)
We understand that you don't have violent tendencies, and that you played Mortal Kombat when you were a teenager. That has NOTHING TO DO WITH THE ARGUMENT.
People generally agree that young children should not be exposed to violent media. The question that is being put to you is not, are video games making people kill, but rather, do we really want young children to
Re:Please! No more anecdotal evidence (Score:1)
Will we use legislation, education, or some other method to make sure children are not exposed to video games which are inappropriate for them?
I'll take 'some other method'. I'd like to call it parenting. It's a radical concept: you actually watch what your child does, monitor what they watch, read, etc, and when they try to get something you do not feel is appropriate for them, you tell them no, and take it away.
At no point in this process does the government, the indus
he's not all wrong... (Score:1, Insightful)
I don't think Jack Thompson is approaching the issue in the right way, and I don't think he'll be successful. But I do think enforcing ratings at stores is
Re:he's not all wrong... (Score:1)
Re:he's not all wrong... (Score:2)
So did the Three Stooges, Wile E. Coyote, and every other slapstick movie or cartoon ever made.
I find it interesting that the kind of violence people are most opposed to is the most realistic kind, the kind that actually shows the consequences. If Bugs Bunny drops an anvil on Elmer Fudd, and Elmer Fudd grow
Re:he's not all wrong... (Score:1)
GTA hardly shows the true consequence of a life of crime. If it were, it would not be much fun. In real life, jail or death does not mean "lose $2000 and all your weapons". When you shoot someone in the head, you wouldn't expect an ambulance t
Re:he's not all wrong... (Score:2)
It's true that no video game, including GTA, is entirely realistic in its portrayal of violence. But my point stands: just about every video game has some element of violence, but it
Re:he's not all wrong... (Score:1)
I'm not arguing that. I'm saying that violent media makes a bad moral argument, one more at risk of being applied in the real world. GTA is about playing as an antisocial psycopath. That's what makes it fun. Children's cartoons generally make simplistic (positive) moral arguments. GTA's morals, defined in terms of what is rewarding behavior within the game, are hardly something you'd want a kid to adopt. Te
Re:he's not all wrong... (Score:2)
GTA is about completing missions that usually involve committing crimes. Anything more antisocial or psychopathic than that is up to the player.
GTA's morals, defined in terms of what is rewarding behavior within the game, are hardly something you'd want a kid to adopt.
The same can be said of Super Mario Bros. You wouldn't want a kid learning to eat magic mushrooms and stomp on turtles, would you? Yet that isn't a side effect of
Re:he's not all wrong... (Score:1)
Uh, if you don't think commiting violent crimes is antisocial and psychopathic, you might want to look up the definition of antisocial [reference.com] and psychopathic [reference.com].
Like a kid watching "Like Mike" and deciding to become a basketball player? I find it interesting that you
Re:he's not all wrong... (Score:2)
Not as long as that media is controlled with an analog stick or directional pad. Maybe someday we'll have the technology to put someone in a fully immersive video game without them ever knowing they're playing a game - then I'll be worried about people learning the wrong things from video games.
No 18+ rating for Australia (Score:2, Insightful)
It makes me so angry when govenments censor games.
At 35 I can marry, have weird sex (if I choose), have kids, get into debt, take mind altering alcohol, pay taxes, watch contact sport (if i choose), watch horror films, read books and look at all manner of art.
I can make decisions, and am held resposible for my actions, it is assumed I know right from wrong.
Yet, the Australian government thinks I need my computer games censored.
The classification guidelines are supposed to allow me to make an informed ch
How to lie with statistics (Score:4, Informative)
A quick Google [google.com] search leads us to the widely reported data: this is actually "school-related deaths", and it includes suicides. First problem. But the second and biggest problem, highlighted prominently in "How to Lie with Statistics", is what happened in the two [schoolsecurity.org] years [schoolsecurity.org] before those three: 33 and 31 deaths, respectively.
So instead of the alarming trend of 17, 16, 48, we have the highly varying trend of 33, 31, 17, 16, 49 (the Web site I'm quoting gives a different number). That last number is certainly worrisome, but hardly proof by itself. Especially when you look at this year's [schoolsecurity.org] count of 37. So what we have is a dip and a blip, not a trend. Of course, Thompson will probably take credit for the latest drop.
The unfair contrast - or shoddy journalism? (Score:1)
I support enforceable game ratings, and there are valid reasons for them - for example, while parenting matters the most, there needs to be responsibility from businesses providing content, whether it is movie theatres or game sellers, etc. But I disagree with almost everything that Thompson sa