Vanguard - Saga of Heroes Previewed

Labyrrinth writes "The media blitz for the upcoming release of the new MMOG, Vanguard: Saga of Heroes has begun with 2 independent previews at IGN and Gamespot . From the article at Gamespot 'In days of old when knights were bold, elves with pointy sticks would totally beat up on a bunch of skeletons. You may have seen online games that take place in high-fantasy worlds, but recently, these games have become much more lenient on players, so that exploring, fighting, and even falling in battle has relatively minor consequences. Not since EverQuest of 1999 (a game that was infamously punishing back then and was clearly one of the main reasons why newer games got easier) has a new massively multiplayer game tried to offer a well-thought-out, but purposely steep, challenge.'" Normally I don't think previews are noteworthy, but Vanguard has been practically a black hole of information since development began.

damn

I was hoping it'd be either a remake or sequel to the old school Vanguard (the side-scrolling shooter where you could shoot in 4 directions).

blah

Well, those previews killed all interest I had in the game whatsoever. Sounds like a re-hash of the same old junk, just with a new engine and the same old "Poser-built" artistry. Blech.

All the annoyances of Everquest, but more so

Let me get this straight- long travel times, corpse runs, heavy death penalties, money and xp grinds. I'm supposed to want to play this?

who destroys the Gond?

Luther destroys the Gond [theoldcomputer.com].

Hooray!

I knew Louis Savain [slashdot.org] was wrong: time travel is possible!

At last, those who claim World of Warcraft & it's brethren are "too easy" or "too fun" have a way to recapture those heady Everquest I days, where games were work & fun was a dirty word!

Update of a side-scrolling shooter?

That seems like a pretty big stretch to go from side-scrolling shooter to an MMOG...

Oh, wait... Nevermind.

Yayyyyyy!!!!!!

Yet another run-around-and-kill-stuff "RPG" minus the role-playing!

The world will never be the same.

Difficult != Bad

If done properly Vanguard might steal away WoW's long term thunder. Simply put, MMOs are designed for the hardcore. Theres no exception about it. If its too 'casual' geared, hardcore gamers will simply blow through the content too quickly (hitting level 60 in two weeks in WoW anyone?) Any new 'casual' content will simply be scoffed off by players who don't want to start a new character to get 'the full experience' or will be blown through by people who are loaded up with enough uber-gear that then can solo most of it. (Wheres the new mid-level content in WoW?)

The only problem with current 'hardcore' geared MMOs is the fact that most developers design their systems with the 'ship now, add content later' mentality. This leads to gamers blowing through the early levels so quickly, developers are forced to focus on end-game content and ignore 'mid-game' content. A MMO that can be challenging yet not end-game focused (organizing and planning a 40-man raid is simply frustrating and time consuming) would be an excellent for gamers. Face it, as much as people talk about WoW as 'the best MMO evar!', they generally end their statements with 'I just wish there was more mid-game content.'

Market Saturation

While the game looks interesting, I can't help but think that this doesn't really look like "progress" in the MMO genre. Sure, we have what these developers think is an "ideal" MMORPG, but it looks like it's not much different from what already exists.

I remember reading something by the guy who does the MMOG charts and him saying how the market for this type of game is somewhat saturated already. Sure, WoW has five million players now, but a lot of its "hardcore" crowd was cannibalized from EQ and other MMOs. I wish more companies would try and create truly *new* experiences in the massive genre, like what's going on in Korea. And yes, I do know that there are upcoming (and current) games that are "different".

Don't have enough time

I never played EQ(didn't have the money) but I am playing WoW and I just would not time for this(I split WoW time with my wife as it is). If I am going to play a new MMO I think this would be interesting, going away from the medieval genre Tabula Rasa [playtr.com]I checked out Eve Online but it was too involved. But maybe by the time Tabula Rasa comes out I will be WoW to Death.

How many MMO fans want their game to be harder?

After playing WoW, how many MMO fans are going to want their game to be harder? One of the greatest things about WoW is the relative ease of the game. You DIDN'T have to do corpse runs, there wasn't any notion of experience loss or debt, and there were many ways for instant travel around the world. I look back to my days playing the original EQ and while it was fun, much of it was because it was new. It's not something I'd want to play again, since I'd miss a lot of the things that WoW had. I'm not saying every MMO now has to be a blatant rip-off of WoW now, but I do wish that some features become more standard.

Also, some of the gameplay mechanics that Vanguard is keeping from EQ (like corpse runs, harsher death penalties, lack of instances), contributed to a lot of problems in EQ and it'll probably be the same for Vanguard. Here a few examples:

1) Equipment remaining on corpse after death (ie. corpse runs) - Just not fun when you lose all your items in the middle of a dungeon, and no one is around to help you anymore. There are many people that give up in this case.

2) Death penalty (experience debt, and the above corpse issue) - Everyone played like a chicken in EQ, afraid to tackle major challenges, being ultra-paranoid about pulls, etc. I know many groups just huddled around the entrances to many zones, so that they could have an easy escape if something went bad, because NO ONE wanted to die. In WoW, dying is still inconvenient, but it's no where near as punishing. I've tackled on many challenges, knowing that there was a good chance that I would die, but taking the risk was fine. It's very hard to do that in an MMO with a much larger death penalty.

3) Lack of instant travel options - I understand that it's more realistic when the world is large and actually takes time to traverse. But it's not fun when your friends or guild members are in another part of the world, and it's going to take you hours to join them. Being able to travel the world and explore lots of places with relative ease is a GOOD thing. Having mounts being more accessible in Vanguard (and flying mounts too!) is definately a good step, but you're still missing out on more instant travel mechanisms (like the many teleport spells in WoW, as well as your heartstone).

That said, I do like some of the new features in Vanguard, specifically that of housing. Okay, it's not new, since UO had it, but it sounds like they're doing a better job of limiting the problems that game had (houses everywhere!). I'd also like to hear more about the crafting system, since that's supposed to be a lot more involved than something like WoW.

A Long Time EQ Player

For those of you WoWer's who never went through the Everquest days let me give you some situations where a "harder" game may have consequences:

Imagine having to spend 10+ hours of grinding to get level 29.

Imagine doing a 5+ endgame raid where you finally get the boss and you lose the roll on the loot. And so you leave your computer having lost almost a complete level of experience with wipes and not much to show for it. (And you though get groups together was hard)
Now imagine trying to keep a guild together or just general group tension down when wiping with any party can cost you the exp equivalent of 3-4 hours of mob grinding. Plus a ton of extra time and money in regents from having to summon all your corpses from under the feet of "Baron VonAssbeater".
I had alot of fun with EQ and a pretty successful guild. But I was also a teenager and this was the best that was available at the time. There is No Way in Hell I would put up with that stuff now.

10 diseases I'd rather get than play this game...

Give it up losers. You're not going to beat WoW, EvE, and Guild Wars by introducing an annoying, tedious grind-fest. Besides, SOE already tried that with Star Wars Galaxies.

-Eric

Another look.

Has anyone thought about this. Vanguard is aiming at a diffrent group of MMO gamers. Heck look at EVE, they broke 100k accounts recently and average around 23 - 25k people on their server at one time. http://www.eve-online.com/ [eve-online.com] - 100k accounts front page news. They are not aiming to overtake the entire MMO market... just what some people have been wanting for awhile. A MMO thats not too easy but offers a real challenge.

EQ vs. WoW

Most people here seem to be missing the point.

EQ/Vanguard are not for people who enjoy playing mmorpgs, like they enjoy playing other games, or for people who play them like glorified IM clients. These games are for the people who actually enjoy the challenge, enjoy the fact that it might take hours to get a reward, and instead of hating the process, count it as an effort towards building a character they see value in.

This is like saying MGS 2 was too hard because you couldn't play it like Tetris or Solitaire, they are totally different types of games. In WoW, the actual work done by the player is minimal, with low risk, and even unskilled/casual players (which is a huge, HUGE market) can compete evenly with the hardcore players. They are actually different games, and the problem until now has been trying to expand the market with new unskilled players, while still keeping the hardcore tier-1 dragon-slayers with server-uniques which are critical to the game, like the old FoH and LoS guilds were to EQ, setting an inspiring ideal for the rest of the players to follow, part hero-worship, part social-hierarchy.

My point is they are different audiences completely. Trying to put them in the same game is difficult without either pissing off the casual players, or letting the hardcore players reach the "End". WoW tried, and got an assload of casual players, but most of the hardcore players I know have left, doing cameos whenever a new dragon comes out, and otherwise actually getting on with their lives. The only hardcore players in WoW now are the compulsive "Ok now I want armor X and horse Y so I look cooler" until the next patch comes out with new armor X and horse Y.

Basically, I miss EQ :(

Going back to the dark ages

While there are quite a few gamers out there that long for the sheer daunting task that the orignal EQ was, I am not going to be one of them. I won't be alone, either.

I really don't mind a challenging game. I enjoy playing games like Half-Life/HL2 without using god mode, for the sheer challenge of succeeding. But MMOs tend to take up a lot more time, and you are dependent on others for the most part. You can't just save and walk away because the kid is throwing up, or the cat is climbing the curtains. You are stuck there, or you have a bad reputation.

I burnt many an entire evening or weekend on EQ. Ignoring the wife to the point she was ready to bitchslap me. Eating in a frenzied rush so I didn't miss anything. In a nutshell, acting like a total goober/asshole. But, I always pulled my head out of my ass and made it up to the wife.

I know several guys that lost a good wife to MMOs. Some to EQ, one to UO, and another to AC. Their wives called themselves EQ-widows, and it was like living with an alcoholic. The guys would literally blow their top if they were interrupted, even when it was for something important for RL. Years later, when they decided to grow up, they were always ashamed of how they acted. It's hard enough to find a wife that will let you play MMOs fairly often. Throwing one away because you HAVE to spend so much time in the game is just assinine.

EQ2 has enough hardships built into it that it wasn't a very lucrative game for most folks. There's a reason its subscription numbers are a joke compared to WoW. After a little over 2 months in the game, I was asking myself "why am I playing this? This game makes things harder than it needs to be to do anything." So, I quit.

Scoff all you want at the casual gamer, but there are a ton of parents out there, kids that care about getting decent grades, and folks with other commitments that simply love being able to play for an hour or two here or there. They enjoy not having to spend another 2 hours in game because one person died deep in the dungeon, and now a rescue mission is needed. They have well rounded lives, with the MMO just being a fun part of it.

Heck, the only real mistake WoW made was having 40-man raids needed for some content. Put it back to 20, and it would have been really perfect. 40 was just too much for most guilds and/or groups of friends to handle.

I am certainly not going back to the dark ages of MMOs. Corpse runs are for masochists.

vanguard?

And let's not forget the "real" vanguard for you old schoolers out there:

http://www.atariage.com/software_page.html?Softwar eID=1424/ [atariage.com]

and

http://coinop.org/g.aspx/100208/Vanguard.html [coinop.org]

Visually...blah

Visually, this game has nothing to distinguish itself from a multidude of similar titles. Where is the style? All the characters are the same body with a unique head sewn on top, with no chance for visual distinction. I don't care for WoW's really low-poly approach, but when you see a screenshot from their game, at least you know what game it came from.

As far as gameplay...ugh. Sounds like it's back to the grindstone. No thanks.

Horrible Previews

If you do one thing after reading these previews, i beg you to at least go to http://www.silkyvenom.com/ [silkyvenom.com] and read the FAQ and Wiki to find out what the game is actually about. You cannot preview Vanguard in 2 pages and give it justice. There is more to this game than what these "previews" explain, and the things that people are complaining about are there for a reason. You might not agree with the reason, but there generally is one and these previews don't go into that much at all.

This game won't be for everyone, and that's fine. World of Warcraft has 5 Million players, and guess what. It aint for everyone. If you look at Vanguard and can't see that it in many ways it is advancing the genre then you haven't looked hard enough.

* Advanced Encounter System with Encounter Routes.
* A more random spawn system.
* 3 sphere's of gameplay. Adventure, Crafting, Diplomacy.
* Cities and Towns as content rather than nice scenery while you pawn off your loot.
* Meaningful travel. It may take longer, but you aren't doing it often. Look if travel took ages in WoW it would suck, due mainly cause you were going from point A to point B repeatedly (i.e. Ironforge to Dungeon/Zone then back). In Vanguard, when you go somewhere you stay there. Travelling somewhere else in the world is a gameplay decision as big as deciding who/what you want to kill, with adventure encounters designed to make travel interesting.
* Job system to help alleviate perfect group whilst still making classes unique and fun. Unlike EQ II.
* tons more innovative stuff.

I may sound like i'm selling the game here, but i have no idea if these featueres will be fun to me or not, i don't know if they'll pull it off. I'm willing to give them a shot though, and not just pass them off as oldskool EQ crap. Read about the game and you'll see that there is more to it than that, and it's your loss if you don't.

Lots of whining, oh wait, it's /.

I love these comments calling people masochists for wanting more challenging gameplay. What about the olympic athletes? Are they masochists for dedicating their lives to a sport, often times taking up far more time/money than any MMO, and for some sports (curling anyone?) which have less worldwide appeal than online gaming does? I'm not trying to equate playing an MMO to an Olympic event, but come on, this lame argument holds no water. Believe it or not, some people actually do enjoy playing difficult, time consuming games. If you aren't one of them, fine, but don't bash the game for choosing a market or the players for doing what they enjoy. You should be glad that Vanguard is advertising itself for what it is, a game that is aimed at those who enjoyed the old experience of EQ or whose who aren't happy with today's current crop of easy MMORPG's. Most other developers don't even give the courtesy of talking truely about their game. Instead they try and make it seem like it will fit all players of all types, which is virtually impossible. In the end, they make lots of money from people who dropped $50 on a game that they find out really doesn't fit their play style. Personally, I'm looking forward to playing this game. I''m just glad to see that truthful advertising is cutting the "fat" players now instead of having to put up with them when the game goes live.

My comments

Heartless Gamer Comments.

Lets start with the stand out comment of the article; "The actual game mechanics should be familiar to anyone who's dabbled in MMOs in the past few years."

- Holy fizzle... Vanguard really is Everquest 2.0 (not to be mistaken with Everquest 2 from SOE). Read that quote again. Translated to human speak the previewers impression was "This is Everquest with better graphics."

Something about housing that caught my eye; "Once you start racking up a lot of dough, you'll eventually have the resources to build your own house and you can create a list of specific people who are allowed to enter it. Housing is not instanced, but the world has tons of open space for staking your claim."

- OK I'm going to calm down a little bit because they are the first MMO really since UO to attempt this in the fantasy setting. This does have potential.

Next on the chopping block is this beauty of a quote; "(Right now, the plan is to have a level cap of 50 at launch. With the current content balance, one beta tester took over four months, playing twelve hours a day, seven days a week, to reach that point.)"

This of course is followed up by this dandy; "That's primarily why McQuaid has a 30" Dell LCD powered by a Radeon X1900 XTX -- because they like to play."

- We already knew this game was made for the hardcore and I'm over that fact. What really hits hard is Brad's PC setup. Way to keep it real Brad. For bloomin' sakes... you would think they may play this game on a system THAT MORE THAN 10% OF THE GAMERS OUT THERE CAN PLAY IT ON. Just my opinion of course.

There is another preview up at Gamespot which I'll digest later, but for now I am pissed off so no need to bite off more than I can chew.

Re:If only most MMOGames had an offline mode...

You're not alone. I did the EverQuest thing for about 4-6 months back in 2000 and then gave it up. MMOGs are like a second job. To get anywhere you have to find groups. That means building relationships with other players and a reputation in addition to getting equipment to make you competitive with other potential players.

The main problem is that if you don't keep up levelling at the same pace as your friends, you fall behind and have to start all over on building up relationships and reputation with a new wave of players, hoping that they play at your pace. Since most people that I met in EQ played a lot, I fell behind several times. Eventually, I gave up on the game when classwork started to pile up.

I don't even have time to play all the offline RPGs I have, so MMOGs aren't very attractive to me. Plus, there's a whole lot of irritating people out there that I'd just rather not deal with (much like FPS & RTS games).

Re:If only most MMOGames had an offline mode...

Yuo should try the Elder Scrolls [elderscrolls.com] games (Morrowind and, soon, Oblivion). All the size and scale of a MMORPG world, but completely offline.

-Eric

Re:Making Corpse Runs is not a Feature!

I guess my whole point is that I don't think there are enough people to support a MMOG that is 'just like the old days, except without a lot of the hassles'. I will agree with you that the stiff penalties for death in EQ encouraged (read: forced) people to know what the hell they were doing. And playing with smacktards who don't understand how to play their class is frustrating. But if you are going to bring a MMOG to the table these days and make it financially successful, it MUST have something to differentiate it from the other "standard" fantasy MMOGs out there. I just don't see CRs and stiff death penalties as the way to do that. I guess I will just have to wait and see. If these "TONS of these people, eagerly frothing at the mouth" show up and make the thing work, more power to them. But my money says it ain't gonna happen.