Blizzard CEO Lays Gay Guild Issue To Rest

Edge Online reports that Blizzard CEO Paul Sams has responded to the GLBT Guild issue that flared up in World of Warcraft a while back. From the article: "... he again characterized the earlier decision to prohibit mention of real-world subjects in recruiting for guilds as an 'unfortunate mistake,' which only came about because the initial comments weren't properly analyzed before sending a warning. 'It is expected and accepted that players will discuss a wide variety of topics, based on both the game world and the real world,' Sams says. 'Players are free to discuss personal characteristics if they wish, to include their sexual orientations and gender identities.'

Lesbian MC Run

A Fraps of that would be HOT!!!!

Huzzah

I must say that this was pretty much the only possible acceptible thing that Blizzard could have done to resolve the situation while keeping my respect. Cheers to Mr. Sams and everyone else involved in resolving this so well.

Re:Huzzah

Er... an even -more- acceptible thing would have been if he said this right after the incident happened:
Not after the accountants/PR people told him.

Wow

"Blizzard CEO lays Gay Guild"?!? Now that's customer service!

Eh...

I agree with Blizz's previous statement of not having real world issues present in the game, such as a gay guild. I don't know what server they play on, but the amount of gay bashing and whatnot I see in barrens chats, I can only imagine how much arguing and whatnot would be caused by them boldly proclaiming they're gay in their guild title.

Re:Eh...

I don't know what server they play on, but the amount of gay bashing and whatnot I see in barrens chats [...]

If Blizzard will allow anti-gay sentiments to fly freely, surely they must allow pro-gay expressions as well.

[...] I can only imagine how much arguing and whatnot would be caused by them boldly proclaiming they're gay in their guild title.

But forbidding it is saying, "Stay in your closet, the bigots were here first," or something similarly silly. It amounts to choosing a side, in any case, and that's something that Blizzard seems to have decided against doing.

Re:Eh...

Dude, seriously. Have you ever mentioned gender,age,work,family,personal angsts,etc..

I don't know how you play, bug the guild I'm with is pretty tight on our own personal lives. None of this is 'in-game' appropriate by your standards because its not in character. The only place that should enforce in-game character is in RP realms that ironicly was the 'safe' place to talk about GBLT guilds when bliz first responded.

It is inevitable that you will talk about your personal lives in game and as long as there is a chat function in game, you HAVE to expect a human being to talk about their real selves at least to some extent.

About your own gandparent post about more discrimination, you're missing the point completely.
1. I don't know of a single gay person that hates all straight people (they may exist, but are by far a minority), so if someone starts a 'gay' guild they're actually starting a gay-friendly guild. That means that they only allow in people that can accept their lifestyle.

2. Being 'outed' in the game doesn't mean much considering there is a harrasment policy thats enforced. If you call a gay person a ---, whatever they can report you. If you know they're gay and you don't want to group with them, thats your right. Its an easy policy to appease.

3. The ability to distinguish gay-tolerant vs. gay-bashers is the key to this whole issue from the get-go. If I was gay, I'd like to associate with people that don't think I'm going to burn in sinful hell. If you don't allow for channels of dialog to allow people to communicate, you could have a guy join a guild and become perfectly happy with it until one night, some drunk player starts spweing hate with the rest of your group joining in, then you realize, "Oh crap, these people hate -me-", so the common ground you thought you were forging with these people was an illusion. So, what do you do? Quit the guild and search for another one, hoping that they're more tolerant?

I don't want to change people, though I wish they'd grow up. I want people to be given the opportunity to find a group of people that are tolerant to them, and the pre-article state of affairs left that ability to find that group unnecessarily restricting.

wait wait wait wait...

Hold on... Liberals won?! In the United States, in this conservative day and age, with politicans and corporations bending over backwards to appease the religious right, and capitalism trumping everything... ...and you're telling me the liberals won one?!?

WOO-HOO!!!

and the wow forums ring with...

/sign

"Gay Guild"?

It wasn't a gay guild, it was gay-FRIENDLY guild.

Re:"Gay Guild"?

I'm not gay and I would join a gay-friendly guild.

You know why?

Because I would be more comfortable in a guild that is accepting of gays.

Why is this shit so hard for people to understand?

Re:"Gay Guild"?

I perfer a guild that doesn't even care enough for sexual orientation to come into it at all.

Re:"Gay Guild"?

And that would be the point of a gay-friendly guild. People not talking about fag and ghey all the time. Because most of the time when people say they don't want sexual orientation to enter into the picture it means that they would like to assume everyone is straight. Not knowing you i can't say that this applies to you specifically, but the vast majority of the time this is the case.

Perspective

On the internet, nobody knows you're a dog [unc.edu] Unless, of course, you join a dog-friendly guild.

Accept reponsibility rather then punt.

which only came about because the initial comments weren't properly analyzed before sending a warning

Right... like the GM's in World of Warcraft have everything they state to players reviewed constantly to ensure accuracy. "GM's for GM's?"

This looks to me like another example where the corporation (Blizzard) has screwed up, and rather then accept responsibility for its mistakes has decided to place the blame on the front-end, and thus easily replaceable, customer service team.

yay real world!

yay! now my fantasy world is firmly grounded in reality! we can now also have republican guilds fighting democratic guilds, nazi guilds killing jewish guilds (on sight)! Lets not forget the Al-queda horde of saudi players! this will make exciting stuff! how far will blizzard allow this to go? are we going to allow all types of special interest groups? is it limited to sexuality or can we include politics and religion?

I think this is the last straw. No more wow for me. Its not a fantasy wolrd to escape to anymore

There was an alternative

Hey, Blizzard could have chosen to ban all the real-world stuff and ban all the Christian guilds. That would have been just as acceptable. Sounds like that's what you would have preferred, so why not lobby them?

What was pissing people off was banning some real-world social preferences but not others.

Link to Original Story

Found here. [kotaku.com]

I think this is awesome, even if it is only the result of legal pressure applied from Lambda Legal and probably not done because it was the 'right' thing to do.

Role Playing as gay

Many arguments keep bringing up the idea of keeping 'real world' issues out of the fantasy game. So, what if the character you are playing is gay? If one were to open a gay themed guild, requiring members to stay in character, is that then still a problem? I don't see how a fantasy game precludes any sense of character's sexual identity. It is patently ridiculous to think that all characters in a fantasy game must be straight and any deivation from this means people have slipped into 'real world' identity. How many straight guys play female characters and would jump at he chance to cyber with another female player? Role-playing is about assuming a character. I can see people being upset about players talking about 'real world' things in such a way that it breaks the game's illusion- but in that context you can't pick and choose which 'real-world' topics offend- they ALL should. But, if the character is played as gay wholly within the context of the game world, how is that a problem?

Eh...

What happened to just having fun? I'd rather belong to a casual group that doesn't specify any ideological belief, but still has a guild chat that is comfortable for all who is in that group. It's more loose. It's just generally not a problem. There's rarely a problem. Things get said, but are taken care of by a case-by-case basis. In any ideology based guild, there's a no-tolerance thing, and it just brings a less friendly atmosphere. Friendly to me isn't an enforcment of feel good stuff, but a place where things can be talked about without fear of being labeled something.

Legal liability.....

8 year old gets recruited to gay guild, recieves inappropirate chat/tells in game, parents take a screenshot and hand over to a lawyer. Blizz gets sued for enabling child molestation. Parents and child walk away with millions.

Re:Legal liability.....

What does the fact that the guild is gay have anything to do with that? Do you think straight people never molest children?

Re:Legal liability.....

Considering that homosexuals make up a disproportionately small percentage of child molesters, I'd say that an 8-year old is safer in a "gay friendly" guild than in a straight one.

Honestly, if one looks at the statistics, I'd be much more frightened of leaving my child with straight people than gay.

Opportunity!!!!

1. Set up server where gay and anti-gay guilds can fight it out 2. Recruit all those jerks protesting at funerals 3. ??? 4. Profit!!!! ---- (At the least, it might move some of those jerks out of real space onto WoW, where they can get their butts well and truly kicked!)

Look For My New Guild!

I'm gonna start a new guild. "WomenBangers". And you just know we're gonna talk about it a LOT.

Title should read:

Blizzard CEO Brings up Gay Guild Issue Again

BTW, I highly doubt the purpose of such a guild is to sit around and talk about how gay they are. I'm sure they focus more on instances and the like. I imagine it's nice to know before hand whether or not a guy's going to be treated like a freak if he comments that his boyfriend is making dinner so it's not a good time to join a raid. And a "mature" guild wouldn't really promise that.
This was never about cutting real life out of a game (after all, most of the characters are controlled by real people). It was about people making targets of themselves, and Blizzard having to deal with the constant harrassment that I'm sure has already started.

New Guild

Applications are now being accepted for the Brokeback Guild.

What Blizzard can and cannot do

Lambda writes:

Although Blizzard is well within its rights to insist that players avoid referring to other gamers in an "insulting manner," Blizzard cannot issue a blanket ban on any mention of sexual orientation or gender identity.

I find it funny that Lambda thinks that they can tell Blizzard what it's own terms of service may be. Last time I checked, Blizzard was providing a subscription service. You don't like the terms? Stop paying them and go somewhere else. That's your right and your choice. They can be as discriminatory as they want and while it may piss some people off, that's their perogative.

Re:What Blizzard can and cannot do

I find it funny that you think that California law can't tell Blizzard what it's terms of service may be.

According to Lambda's letter to Blizzard, "Discrimination against LGBT individuals in the provision of public accommodations is clearly prohibited by California law. Id., see also, Cal. Civ. Code 51 et seq. It has been so for more than fifty years. Stouman v. Reilly, 234 P.2d 969 (Cal. 1951)."

It would appear that Blizzard's lawyers didn't find this particularly funny.

Straights-Only Guild?

Does this mean I can create a guild for straights and sympathizer only and advertise it on public chat?

This whole subject is completely ridiculous, and Blizzard is making it even more ridiculous. What's next? A Blacks Only guild? Or should we be PC and say African-Americans Only guild, never minding this would exclude non-American blacks from joining it? Maybe that could be followed by a Whites Only guild too. Or would this one be too un-PC?

The whole problem, actually, is GLBTs using their "GLBTness" as a defining characteristic of their personalities. This is as much absurd as a straight proclaiming his straightness as being the important aspect of himself. Sex is just a like/dislike thing, one among many. It's not worth this central role people, specially GLBTs, see in it.

Read Blizzard's Policy

Too many people are responding to this article in hysterics because Blizzard has changed its policy to revoke a ban on gay chat and overt sexual references in guild names and to allow descriptions of homosexual acts in public chat channels.

That's not the case now, nor has it ever been. Blizzared never banned gay chat in public channels, only insulting references to sexuality. And descriptions of sexual acts always have been, and continue to be, forbidden. The policy has not changed.

So before you have a freak out, you might want to read the posted policy. It's here:

http://www.blizzard.com/support/wowgm/?id=agm01719 p [blizzard.com]

This is fitting...

...considering that the entire game and anyone who plays it is totally gay.

Pizza

Any of you every go out to eat? You know, something reasonable, not fast food but not too pricey either...

Imagine two, clearly gay men, enjoying a pepperoni pizza with mushrooms at this restaurant. They are polite and respectful. All of a sudden, and completely out of the blue, a fellow at another table turns and starts screaming hellfire at them, faggot this and homo that; threatens to kill them perhaps? Who do you think that manager is going to ask to leave?

Oddly enough...

...the entire fantasy genre is built upon racism.

Bet they can't talk about...

... pictures of the prophet mohammed.

Fucking Political Correctness

That's right fuck Blizzard, and fuck their CEO and his politically correct bullshit. I'm so tired of everyone being so afraid to make decisions and stick to them because of PC pressure.

It's a game. I don't give two shits about the nightelf I'm teamed up with prefering to suck cock while I'm killing 50 bunnies to get a patch of fur to craft a new tunic or whatever lame ass quest I'm on. I don't feel compelled to talk about screwing chicks while I play a game. Gay/lesbian people need to ease up on this force-feeding of their views and lifestyle on everyone else. It's a game, just fucking play it. Period.

I wonder if they would decide the same way

if there was a hetrosexual friendly guild in the game that discussed hetrosexuality on public chat channels in the same way that GLBT friendly guild and discussing GLBT sexuality on public chat channels?

You would think, under equal rights, that one does not need to say X-Friendly in their guild or chats and just accept everyone equally? Doing so is sort of starting a segigation between groups of people, saying one type they are friendly to, but not mentioning what other types they are friendly to. It makes people get the perception that if you are X-Friendly that you are not Y-Friendly because you did not even mention Y. Sort of like having a company of all GLBT people, and not hiring any Hetrosexuals is still discrimination even if you claim to be GLBT Friendly.

What About Beastiality Friendly Guilds?

I mean, if you are going to let in guilds based on sexual orientation why not allow guilds for epople who just want to engage in a little farmplay?

Plus, beastiality friendly guilds would actually have more real world to WoW world value than gay guilds because several of the races are animal races to begin with.

I mean, just imagine a level male Dwarven Paladin mounting a female Tauren Shaman.

Can you say "MOO"?

wha-?

Forgive my ignorance: I haven't played WarCraft since back in the Win '95 days.

Back then, the premise of this (most excellent) game was to raise an army of ugly trolls in order to lay siege to an opponent's defenses.

Please explain this to me: after spending 9 hours pretending to be trolls burning down human villages, players were offended by people who enjoy company with similar genitals?

Yikes. I'd move to Canada, but they are just as crazy...

Slashdot Tags

Currently the "tags" that I see on the mainpage read:

WOW Blizzard gay

Lose Lose Situation

No matter what Blizzard does here, they're screwed. The ban on Gay guilds wasn't intended, I dont think, as a biggoted decision. Rather, it was to keep guilds open. Because they made that call, they were getting busted on, so they reversed the decision. This isn't 'caving into pressure'. It's simply changing policies to conform with what the current social situation seems to require of them. So, yes, it could be seen as caving. But it's also part of the process a company has to go through to create a product that is acceptable to the most of their fanbase. If they ban the guilds, they're seen as biggots. If they reverse that decision, they're seen as caving and condoning devisive behavior. Personally though, I'm glad they 'caved' as it were. Other devisive behavior is allowed and really, the whole point of an MMO over an offline game is devisiveness - forming communities with whatever traits, from the superficial to the profound life choices, that you wish to spend the time with. Unlike in the real world where excluding groups prevents others access to equal opportunities, in WOW it allows everyone to tailor the game to their particular requirements. So, go Blizzard for choosing, what I believe to be, the best option in a difficult situation. And revisiting a choice isnt always caving to pressure. Sometimes its learning from experience.

In other news

Gay guild issue rises from its grave as a zombie. When interviewed, the zombie said: "Braaaaiinnnsssss...." and left for Europe to get some.

A 40-men raid group, dressed in thights and called the Merry Men of Sherwood, went after the zombie. The leader, a guy carrying longbow with the handle "Robin", commented shortly: "Well, we've been grinding by raiding the sheriff of Notthingham for the last thousand years every day, so it's time to try something new. Besides, the bastards stole our idea." The sheriff, along with his employer, prince John, took the entire English Army with him and went after Robin, to challenge him to a player-versus-army deathmatch.

The ghost of Richard the Lion-hearted declined to comment the matter.

I have to agree with Blizz's original decision...

It's a fantasy world, not real life. I like that I can log into WoW and not have to talk about issues like gay marriage, George Bush, the price of gas, NASDAQ, or spring training. Not that I don't have opinions or wouldn't want to discuss those topics in real life, but I enjoy that it's something I don't need to think about that when I'm trying to get into a ZF run to pick up a new staff.

It's kind of sad that people want to fit themselves into little narrow definitions of who they are. I don't spam "Looking to join guild of 27 year old, straight, white females with no children PST." When I log in, that's not who I am. I'm a 60 rogue, who will ambush you if you give me the chance. I'm a 40-something priest, who can heal a party like there's no tomorrow even though I'm shadow spec'ed...

I accept that the people I'm playing with are of all different ages, genders, races, locations, sexual orientations, religions, etc in real life. I just hope they can hold the aggro off me so I don't die before I can heal them. Apparently, that's just me.

Re:*sigh* Gotta be Politically Correct in fantasy.

*sigh* Care to explain what's so offensive about GLBT chatter on the public airwaves? If it's over-the-line sexual discussion, it should be banned outright regardless of the orientation. Isn't that what you really meant to say?

Re:*sigh* Gotta be Politically Correct in fantasy.

That just means the majority of people are bigots, right? So if bigots are the majority, that makes it OK?

Re:*sigh* Gotta be Politically Correct in fantasy.

And for that matter, they should be forbidden to discuss their race or their religion. Everyone should appear in the game as a straight, white Christian male. We need a pure WoW environment! Warcraft uber alles!!

Re:*sigh* Gotta be Politically Correct in fantasy.

"I don't want to be exposed to GLBT chatter over PUBLIC CHANNELS. If they want to do it in the privacy of their guild, that's cool! But it should NOT be allowed in public channels."

If you were referring to discussion about GLBT issues and discussion topics...that would be one thing...but what the hell is wrong with advertising that something is friendly to those people. Its the same as having an advert for any other type of guild. This wasn't "chatter"...it was a fairly succinct advert.

Re:*sigh* Gotta be Politically Correct in fantasy.

Here is what the terms of service say:

Language which falls under the following categories is deemed to be highly inappropriate. Clarification on what constitutes each category can be found by clicking on the links below.
...
Sexual Orientation
This category includes both clear and masked language which:

        * Insultingly refers to any aspect of sexual orientation pertaining to themselves or other players

If a player is found to have used such language, he/she may:

        * Be temporarily suspended from the game

There is a category in the table of contents of your link named "sexual orientation", but the actual text of that part of the terms of service refers only to insulting speech, not any speech having to do with sexual orientation at all.

Basically you're wrong-- you're either lying, or you didn't read your own link before pasting it-- you're misquoting the harassment policy, and no, this rule does not at all cover the GLBT chat used by the guild.

It's funny how you're basically saying that in order for World of Warcraft to not be "politically correct", in your way of defining things, World of Warcraft would have to purposefully censor speech which you find objectionable. Funny, sounds to me like you are the one demanding the gay people be "politically correct", by conforming their speech to your politics.

Re:*sigh* Gotta be Politically Correct in fantasy.

If the GBLT guilds wish to advertise on local chat, that's fine with me.

"[. . .] but it is[sic] SHOULD NOT BE ALLOWED over the public channels."
I would assume you don't mind the occasional spam, so I'm confused about what additional chat would be/would not be allowed over local chat. Discussions about the best gay sex positions? Barrens chat about the hottest gay actors? I don't really think any of the GBLT (sounds like a sandwich) WoW players really want to discuss that stuff with all of The Barrens as audience, anyway.

Hence, I must ask for clarification of what local chat you think the average WoW player's sensibilities might be offended by.

Re:*sigh* Gotta be Politically Correct in fantasy.

They were bringing up sexual orientation in a public chat channel. By the rules they agreed to when signing up for the game, their account would be suspended for 72 hours. There's nothing wrong with that! It's a FANTASY GAME! GLBT chat is fine in a private guild, but it is SHOULD NOT BE ALLOWED over the public channels.

A common sentiment, but unfortunately it doesn't work in this case whatsoever. It would be nice if you could play a game where no real life chatter goes on, but it's simply not the case. In fact, on the servers I have seen - there is more non-game related chatter than game-related chatter. I'm not exaggerating.

If you're really that offended by people discussing their sexuality or gender identities, you might consider ignoring them. Or maybe search for a game that prohibits all non-game chatter.

Re:*sigh* Gotta be Politically Correct in fantasy.

No. They said they where gay/lesbian-friendly. Cracking down on that is the same thing as cracking down on a guild being rp-friendly or danish-friendly or whatever. It's so ridiculous it's not even funny.

I actually canceled my wow-subscription over this. To be honest I was looking for a reason to cancel but whatever.

People are celebrating already

Just the other night, when I was lagging, I had someone in my raiding party call me a useless fag. At first I thought he was insulting me, but now I relaize that he was just celebrating Blizzard's new policy of openess to discussions regarding sexual orientation. Good for him!

-Eric

Re:Laid to rest?

After all maybe me refering to something bad as gay could be considered offensive enough to report now. While perhaps someone of GLBT persuasion could make lewd sex act refrences but be impossible to report because that would be crippling there freedom. I dont know because we no long have simple universal rules anymore.

All your woe and dispare is kinda foolish because what the COO (not CEO, as the title says) said is that the rule never changed, and still hasn't. He's saying punishing someone for saying "GLBT" in game was not an appropriate response. And yes, saying "gay" when you mean "bad" was always punishable, and should continue to be. But if you actually read the Blizzard policies on harrassment, you'd know that descriptions of sexual acts are, and continue to be, forbidden. I can't tell if you're a troll, or just not very intelligent. Either way, you seem to be reacting based on bias rather than reason or logic, and that doesn't speak very well of you, either.

Re:Cancelled Account

but they were playing the game before, it's just now that they can join a like-minded guild.

Re:Laid to rest?

this is a double edged sword and Blizzard have seen fit to blunt one side of it by saying people cant be offended by GLBT but can be offended by those against GLBT. That is unless they are perfectly fine with anti GLBT sentiments but that opens the flood gates in an entirely different set of arguments.

People shouldn't be offended by the EXISTENCE of other people. Think about a guild that has a lot of black people in it. Your logic would say that it should then be fine to have anti-black guilds also.

Re:Laid to rest?

People shouldn't be offended by the EXISTENCE of other people.

      You've obviously never been to 0.0 space in Eve...

Re:However

You have your facts wrong.

Blizzards online realms, while privately owned, are considered a public accomodation under California law, and they are therefore forbidden from discriminating against any persons defined in state anti-discrimination statutes.

Blizzard's policy was not to forbid GLBT chat. It was to forbid insulting references to sexuality.

The implication that they were going to change their policy to forbid GLBT chat is what started this whole controversy, but in the end, they said that their policy is not changing.

Get that? Nothing's changed.

Finally, anyone who doesn't want to be subjected to certain things and objects so strongly should probably read all of Blizzards terms of use and policies before they click "I Accept" and pay their money.

But what really makes me laugh is that people like those in the thread parent are freaking out over a policy that has always been in place, and has never changed.

Re:Cancelled Account

I will not be exposed to true faggot dark elves

True Faggot? That's a new one on me. I've seen chaotic good, awful evil, True Neutral... is True Faggot something unique to WoW?

Everyone knows what dark elves are like anyway. Filthy sods. Hell, elves are all a bit morally questionable. I mean, you never see a half-dwarf. Or a half-hobbit. Unless they're called Quarterlings or something.

Re:*sigh* Gotta be Politically Correct in fantasy.

If they want to do it in the privacy of their guild, that's cool! But it should NOT be allowed in public channels.

Heh, that sounds like the people that complain about gay pride parades. "I dont' care if they're gay, but why do they have to parade it around all the time?!?!?!?"

Heh, I'll tell you why: Because these people have been shunned and ousted from society from so long, and they're sick of it. They're proud of who they are, and they want to be able to express themselves and their way of life freely the same way that the rest of the world does...

Your comment almost sounds like you think that homosexuals should all just stay in the closet...

Re:Laid to rest? PARENT NOT TROLL

You may not like what the Parent has said, but that is not the definition of a Troll. He's right that freedom really is double-edged. And in less Blizzard is truly freeing people for both pro- and anti-GLBT comments then they're not being honest here and their ToS should be revised to read:

We only tolerate positive statements towards GLBT players, and only actual GLBT players will be allowed to decide what is positive and what is not. Negatvie statements are never to be allowed such freedom because we intend to make you a better person in spite of yourself. So there!

In actual freedom, it's all statements -- or none -- allowed. Sorry if you don't like that.

Re:What does GLBT stand for

GLBT - Gay/Lesbian/Bi-sexual/Transgendered.

Re:WTF?

does this mean I can't start a guild for men with small penises and women with small breasts? I could call it the "Teenie Weenies and titties"....

on another issue, I recently saw a female night elf who was in the guild Knee High Knights. that offends me (as a Gnome Warrior).

Ira

Re:More power to them... Will be modded down I exp

Oh man you are batshit crazy and all over the goddamn map! I love it! They should've modded this funny though, not troll. This stuff is pure genius. You've conjured the essence of James Dobson and Mike Tyson.