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Frustration With Oblivion Mod Costs on Xbox Live
Posted by
Zonk
on Tue Apr 04, 2006 11:32 AM
from the my-kingdom-for-a-horse dept.
from the my-kingdom-for-a-horse dept.
Vizionary wrote to mention the player backlash swelling out of a recent addition to Xbox Live. Major Nelson's blog made the announcement that they'd finally added the (previously announced) barding for the player mount in Oblivion. The catch is that the simple modification costs 200 points, removing a lot of the appeal of the small mods the Elder Scrolls series has thrived on. From commenter 'SW 1540' on that site: "Unquestionably, some downloadable content should cost money/points. Having said that, the cost of that content should be directly proportional to the enhancement it provides to the original game. For example, I would expect to pay $20.00 for the soon to come Perfect Dark Zero maps or new cars for Project Gotham. On the other hand, I would expect any additional costumes for PDZ to be free. I imagine there is good arguments on both sides, but one can see that the potential is there to exploit an eager fan. "
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Frustration With Oblivion Mod Costs on Xbox Live
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Online PC Games (Score:5, Insightful)
(http://www.kibbee.ca/)
Re:Online PC Games (Score:4)
(http://www.networkboy.net/)
Anyway, I was trying to say: Sell a ton of cheap stuff that has nominal cost, rather than a smaller number of the same item with the same cost, but at a higher price, running the risk of ailenating your customer.
-nB
And do you remember (Score:5, Interesting)
PCs and consoles aren't the same thing and aren't the same market. One simple, obvious difference would be price. The 360s are priced as cheap as their corrisponding graphics card for a PC. To get 360 level graphics, you need something on the order of a Radeon 1900XT. That's like $450 just for a graphics card, never mind the system needed to support it.
What it basically comes down to is the PC is a totally open environment. You set your hardware up as you like, you run the software you like, you mod it as you like, etc. That's how I like it and why I'll spend the money to play games on a PC (well that and I'd have a pwoerful PC regardless of games). However let's not pretend like it's always easy. Just last night I was fighting with an older game (KOTOR) to make it work well on my modern hardware which is way more than it needs.
Consoles are a more managed environment. The console maker supplies you with one, fixed system that you use and you don't tinker with it. All games work because they are certified and they know the platform they are writing for. There's no unexpected compatiblity problems with new hardware or software. They have a simple interface and do only one thing.
Well the whole pay-for X-box live service is really an extension of that model. Everything is centrally managed and controlled. It means you can't just go and run your own service but also means you don't have to rely on people who do. I can say form the Quake days there was a wide varity of servers out there. Some were top notch speed and stability wise (and usually hard to get a spot on) some played like they were being run on a 486 in some guy's bedroom... PRobably because they were being run on a 486 in some guy's bedroom.
I don't particularly think either PC or console gaming is superior, just different. I own a powerful PC anyhow, like PC games better, and value the ablity to hack around on my games so I do PC gaming. However I can see the appeal of the console system. Buy one, cheaper unit that will not be outdated for a number of years, then pay a service fee for someone to run the whole online aspect. It's simpler, and even after years of playing would add up to what the core of my current computer cost me.
Re:And do you remember (Score:4, Informative)
Also your upgrade analogy is extremely flawed. You are totally neglecting the value of the rest of the system. Money had to go to buy that, espically if it's new enough to support a 7800 GT. I was in just such a situation a month ago or so when I did get my 7800. I had an AGP system, but all the AGP offerings were unattractive. Too slow for the money. I wanted a PCIe card, specificly a 7800 GT. Ok so now to the graphics card, add a motherboard, that's about $150 for one with features I liked. Ahh but now there's a new problem, RAM. My old RAM was DDR, new system needs DDR2. RAM's cheap, but still another $150 or so for 2GB. Then there's a biggie: The CPU. Had to go with a new socket factor to get PCIe. So that's $300 for a nice dual core one. Not done yet though, turns out these new graphics cards and mobos need power my PSU doesn't handle, I need a new one of those. Decided I'd like it to be quiet and efficient so $100 there.
All tolled it was about $1100 for the core upgrade and that doesn't count sound, harddrives, case, display, input or any of that, I kept all those things.
Money well spent in my book, but it doesn't get the graphics up to 360 levels. It gets them around it, but does not match it.
Re:Online PC Games (Score:4, Insightful)
I used to be a hardcore PC gamer, but now I will never buy a PC game again (unless Infocom starts releasing text adventures again
"barding for the player mount" (Score:5, Funny)
Re:"barding for the player mount" (Score:5, Funny)
(http://www.neverwhen.net/)
Conversions please? (Score:5, Insightful)
(http://starport.dnsalias.net/ | Last Journal: Thursday February 09 2006, @11:53PM)
Re:Conversions please? (Score:5, Informative)
(http://m13b.net/)
Armored horse, only $2.50! (Score:3, Insightful)
I guess this is an experiment with the micro content that Microsoft was looking to build an "ecosystem" of. Bah, I hate that marketoid term. Apparently the ecosystem complains loudly; wonder what that bodes for sustaining such prices for such small add-ons.
Buyer's Remorse (Score:5, Interesting)
A - It wasn't worth $2.50.
B - They really shouldn't be rewarded for charging for something that used to be free and probably should've been free considering the 360 owners already paid more than the PC people.
You may now "crucificate" me.
"Ha Ha!" (Score:5, Insightful)
(http://www.hiredgoons.ca/)
Seriously, $2.50 for horse armor? At that rate, I can only imagine what actual content would cost.
just the beginning (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:just the beginning (Score:5, Insightful)
(http://haltingpoint.blogspot.com/)
You think this is just for XBox Live? I got news for you...this kind of bullshit has already been pulled, quite successfully, by EA with BF2.
First, they started with their regular expansions. You know the drill...some cool new gameplay elements (like rocketpack, etc), a slew of items, and MANY new maps. Then we had the bullshit that was Special Forces. Now, by itself, it was pretty cool. However, what was utterly unexceptable was that EA allowed people who purchased that expansion to use their new uber-weapons in the regular BF2 game. And the only way players who didn't have the expansion could obtain those weapons was to pick them up off the corpses of people carrying them. In essence, EA enabled players to pay to upgrade their weapons in the game.
Then it progressed to crap like the Euro forces expansion, which is basically $10 for 3 maps, 4 vehicles and 7 weapons. Now, many have said it was a good value...I personally feel it was an over-priced money grab. And they are continually trying to crank out mini-expansion packs at an inflated cost.
The other great example is Valve with their "episodic gaming" vision. While normally you'd pay roughly half of the price of the retail game for approx. 1/2 the value of the content of the full game for an expansion, they've now shifted that by charging you $20, or roughly 1/3 the price for what amounts to 1/5 the content.
The overall trend here is that all of these game companies are drooling over the success of the monthly revenue stream provided by subscriptions from MMO's and such while at the same time salivating over the potential to sell things on a per-item basis with next to zero distribution costs in the way that cell-phone companies sell ringtones etc.
Everybody ignores this slippery slope, but I'm glad players are standing up for this for once, even though its just because of the issue of Xbox players got charged while PC gamers didn't. The reality is that NEITHER should have been charged for something that insignificant.
Whatever happened to free patches that gave great new content? Nowadays the only free patches are those that fix horrendous bugs which the game shouldn't have even been released with in the first place.
End result: You pay $60 for the original game + what amounts to a monthly fee for as many "episodic expansions" as they can cram down your throat + whatever nickle & dime upgrades they can make you buy in order to even remain competitive with your fellow gamers.
It is utterly disgusting and unfortunately I see no hope of this situation improving at all.
MMO-RPG vs Single Player RPG (Score:5, Interesting)
Exploitation? Yeah right... (Score:5, Insightful)
Give me a Break (Score:4, Insightful)
Why didn't they follow the same pricing model when selling their game? Surely if 2 skins are worth $2.50, then an entire CD filled with thousands of skins, logic, sprawling maps, etc would be worth several thousands of dollars per disc.
Bethesda should be ashamed.
Charging for the PC Addons too (Score:5, Informative)
Before everyone freaks out here, too... (Score:5, Informative)
I honestly don't see why everyone is freaking out about this; message boards seem to have exploded in rage all over the internet since yesterday, and it's really not that big a deal. I don't feel like $2.50 is worth a mod that doesn't actually do anything (the "armor" doesn't actually increase the horse's armor class, it just makes it look nice), and I feel like a lot of people are thinking the same thing. When Bethesda finds out that people aren't willing to pay that amount for so little, I'm guessing that future content will be priced more in line with the value it gives players. All in all, this really has nothing to do with Microsoft or how horrible the 360 is, but with why Bethesda chose that price for this particular content.
Original Story Submission (Score:4, Interesting)
------------------
Micro$oft's marketing droids have fired the first salvo in the latest round of Digital Restrictions Management Warfare. Oblivion, by Bethesda, widely believed to be the strongest candidate for 2006 Game Of The Year, has begun providing downloadable content via XBOX Live. This could be great news, but at roughly $2.50 for downloadable Horse Armor a mere two weeks after the game shipped, we all know this was carved from the game to be sold separately. Bethesda is also to blame here, with other similarly priced content on the way. How long until "essential" game content is withheld from a game release, only to be downloaded in Pay-Per-Play chunks?
------------------
Please note that I'm definitely not against pay-per-play as a viable model, however, for these guys to charge $2.50 for what basically amounts to a few texture maps and a mesh is a big step over the edge onto a slippery slope that could (will?) lead to more egregious violations of player trust. And, before everyone says "if you don't like it, don't buy it"...believe me, I won't. However, it's important to understand that without public backlash over this, the folks behind these machinations will continue forward, "innovating" online gaming to the point where you won't be able to complete a $60 game you purchased until you've spent another $40 on pseudo-essential add-ons. (Not picking on you, Bethesda, we love you guys!!!)
Why did I mention Digital Restrictions Management? Glad you asked. If player contributed content were available via XBOX Live, the "power" of this type of marketing ploy would be diffused against other, more affordable (even free in some cases) mods. Why no player contributed content? Well, first you need Micro$oft's permission to provide anything via Live. And, well, we'll just leave the DRM issue right there...it's just beating a dead horse with armor.
But, I digress...
Thank You, Bethesda, for Oblivion! You've restored my faith in immersive, interactive storytelling! Please use your amazing success with this game to help protect the future of downloadable content. I suppose that one way to do that would be to ensure that the price of content is in-line with the value of the content. And, it would be really nice if it were also tied to the actual "cost" of the content...but, hey, we can always dream.
Re:Original Story Submission (Score:5, Interesting)
(http://slashdot.org/)
id10t Error (Score:5, Insightful)
(http://www.moogr.com/ | Last Journal: Friday October 31 2003, @12:16PM)
You buy it because you choose to do so. You buy it because it works, because you enjoy it and because you don't mind paying for someones hard work.
Sure horse armor for 2.50 is a joke. I don't dispute that. However the 360, xbox live and the game are all worth every penny i paid and then some. I'll choose not to buy the horse armor because..
you may guess it
i don't freaking HAVE to.
Thanks for blowing this way out of proportion and making yourselves look like idiots. Move along.
same thing in Kameo months ago (Score:4, Insightful)
I didn't pay and I encourage others not to pay either.
I'm not against micropayments, but I lets make MS work for their money, make them develop good additional content. Like Geometry Wars.
When additional tracks/cars become available for PGR3, I don't know what I will do. I would like the content, but the problem is if we pay them, they'll leave stuff out of the next PGR3 on purpose, just so they can sell it to you later.
So much for the good old days. (Score:4, Interesting)
(http://designelement.us/)
I can expect to pay something for a substantial mod that introduces a new storyline or something to that effect. But to be charged for something as simple as a new texture and maybe a new model is pathetic.
It's not like an MMO where we're playing on their servers. But here they are charging for an object that at best some employee threw together in an afternoon, at worst was originally created with the game but left out for the release. They apply a few stats to it and they're done.
If Bethesda are finding themselves in a situation where Oblivion isn't as profitable as they'd like because of what they've invested in it's development then they should be addressing the issue differently.
The first option is not to make the game so overwrought that they spend a fortune just creating the game. Focus on the gameplay. Don't get obsessed in the latest eye candy that doesn't add directly to gameplay and that even struggles to run on fairly recent video cards.
The second option is simply to charge a bit more for the game. That's not a pleasant option, but if the game is more expensive to produce then charge accordingly. Of course, then I wouldn't expect to have to pay for anything for these mods.
The problem is that the power is in the hands of the consumer. Unfortunately, too many consumers dont think. They're quick to defend these companies and readily pay for anything. The more these people happily accept this sort of the nonsense the more the rest of us are forced into these extortionist pricing models.
In a way I think MMOs have been a bad for the gaming industry. It's shown these companies that not only can they charge full price for a game, but convince people to pay a monthly fee to continue playing. And on top of that most of these games dont even provide significantly more content than a single player but instead are heavily padded with repetitive gameplay. Consumers seem to be more than willing to part with their money, so why not make things easy for them?
Response from Bethesda (Score:4, Informative)
(http://slashdot.org/)
Slashdotted (copy included) (Score:5, Informative)
(http://www.hiredgoons.ca/)
Pete Hines from Bethesda Software was kind enough to answer a few question and shed some light on the whole Horse Armor Spectacle.
Quote:
bapenguin: It seems there's been quite a bit of backlash from the $2.50 horse armor skins. What's your take on it?
Pete Hines: Honestly there's not a lot of info out there for us to go on. We tried to find a spot for it that fit with what other things were out there. A Theme costs 150 points. The Kameo thing was 200. We're trying to find the right spot that fits. How much is something you can use in the game worth versus a gamer picture pack, or a theme, and so on.
bapenguin: Any chance that we'll see a change in the price structure because of this? Or has it been selling well enough at the current price point that you guys are happy?
Pete Hines: Will they all be priced the same? I don't know. We're not even a day into this right now. We've got a couple more we're working on finishing and testings and will release in the next couple of weeks. We want to put some different things out there and find out what folks want and what they don't want. These are optional things, not requirements, so if you don't want to get them you don't have to.
bapenguin: What about free mods on the 360? Will we be seeing any of the popular PC mods from the user community showing up on Live?
Pete Hines: Right now we don't have plans to do any free mods. We don't ever get involved with fan-created content, on any platform, so taking some of that and releasing it on Live is not something we'd ever do.
Pete brings up a good point relating to content already out there. I completely forgot about the Kameo "winter pack" thing which was the same price. That "content" is pretty much the same as what Bethesda is offering. It's good to hear that a variety of stuff is in the works.
Oh, the humanity! (Score:5, Funny)
People have a basic human right to have armor on their hourses in video games! It is time we nationalize the gaming industry, like we do health care, education, and all vital industries, so we make sure this kind of oppression is eliminated. The government certainly wouldn't exploit us like this!