Sanitizing Expression In Virtual Worlds

1up has a piece looking back at the GLBT guild mixup that happened earlier this year in World of Warcraft. From the article: "'... last summer a friend introduced me to WOW, and I really liked it, though I didn't care for remarks many of the players made, like the fact that everything is apparently so gay when it's bad. So I decided to create my own guild, which would be GLBT friendly.' Sometimes singing, other times slogging her way through WOW's exacting echelons to a formidable level 60, Andrews had big endgame plans for her developing guild--until January 12, 2006, that is, when a note from publisher Blizzard blinkered everything."

Oh man

Until January 12, 2006, that is, when a note from publisher Blizzard blinkered everything.

Yea I hate it when things blink . . . I always seem to blink things up . . . Oh yea, well blink you too.

They gave you your life back

The issue with MMORPG's is that there is NO END, ever, to the game. You can literally play forever and the more time you put in the harder it is to quit because you have to acknowledge all the time you've wasted playing it. Blizzard has finally found a way to get people to end their addiction; homophobic account and guild deletions. :) Now the GLBT community will can free of the burden of MMORPG addiction.

Re:They gave you your life back

But they're still not free from their addiction to Gay Bacon Lettuce & Tomato sandwiches.

Re:::kicks troll back under bridge::

I really wonder about Blizzard though. I wasn't terrifically bothered by the lack of non-causasian humans in Warcraft III; after all the whole fantasy thing is sort of a modified version of medieval Europe, which was pretty white.

But I thought that Starcraft verged on overt racism- the only black characters were the dumb, nose-picking, powerless SCV pilots- basically, the manual laborers. Everyone else is lily-white. Well, OK I think Duran from the expansion was black. And evil.

I don't buy into the concept of political correctness, but I do think that the vision promoted by Starcraft- where there aren't any positive portrayals of non-white humans- was really a step backwards from the vision promoted by Star Trek, where you've got blacks and asians and whatnot serving as equals. It's disappointing that Blizzard seems to be so backwards looking and narrow-minded in the fantasy worlds it creates.

Re:They gave you your life back

Sexual content has no place in this game.

You've never seen a female night-elf dance, have you?

It is supposed to be "family friendly"..

.. so what do you expect when you create a guild based on sexual activities? The same thing would happen to an S&M guild.

Re:It is supposed to be "family friendly"..

It's not intrinsically sexual, any more than, say, marriage, which is seen as a perfect topic for family-friendly stuff.

Re:It is supposed to be "family friendly"..

It's not intrinsically sexual, any more than, say, marriage, which is seen as a perfect topic for family-friendly stuff.

As a married man, I would like to categorically object to the linking of marriage with sex.

Private Property rights exist in virtual worlds?

This is funny because I was talking about it only a year ago -- will we see private property rights exist in cyberspace?

I firmly believe that the ability to speak is a protected right directly protected by the right to personal property. I don't believe we need a government to protect our right to speech on our own land. I also believe we can censor whoever we want, as long as we're on our own land. Once we step onto their land, they have the power to control speech.

Most of the time the GLBT folks anger me because they want to introduce negative rights into the world -- forcing people how they have to act on their own land. I don't believe in negative rights (the ability to criminalize or penalize someone for their speech through government) because I believe it destroys property rights. If I want to sit around in my home, my restaurant, or my office and criticize whites, blacks, gays, straights, midgets, tall people, or geeks, it is my property and my right. If my customers don't like it, they'll go next door to the guy who ISN'T prejudiced. Heck, I even think you could have a "straight women additional fee" on food served if you really wanted to be an idiot.

That's the point of private property -- attract the customers you want to attract.

Now the GLBT folks are mad because they created their own private property, and the "big government" in the game said NO. This is even funnier now because the group that has historically been known to work against individual rights is now being hampered by their own policies.

I'm not anti-gay, anti-lesbian, anti-transgendered, but I am pro-freedom. I do believe that even in a game freedom is expressed by people who are not looking to harm another person's physical propery, and that when it comes to words, the old phrase is very appropriate:

Sticks and stones might break my bones,
but words will never hurt me.

Re:Private Property rights exist in virtual worlds

If I want to sit around in my home, my restaurant, or my office

Your home is private property, but when you open your restaurant to the public, it becomes a 'public accomodation', and is not private property. This was an issue with a case against the Boy Scouts of America. They were sued because they discriminate against homosexuals. The courts ruled that the Boy Scouts were a private club, not a public accomodation, and that they were free to discriminate.

Some bars and restautants are also run as private clubs (playboy clubs (defunct), bottle clubs, etc). Most are public accomodations, with restricted 'property rights'.

Also, if you hire a person to work in your business, you are bound by labor laws. This includes not creating a 'hostile work environment' and other EEOC restrictions. If you don't like it, don't hire people in America.

Re:Private Property rights exist in virtual worlds

I firmly believe that the ability to speak is a protected right directly protected by the right to personal property. I don't believe we need a government to protect our right to speech on our own land.

Control over property does not give you absolute right of speech within its borders. To pull out the old Supreme Court analogy, by your logic, if you owned a theater, that would give you permission to attend a crowded performance, yell "Fire!" and watch the havoc unfold. That is absolutely ridiculous.

I also believe we can censor whoever we want, as long as we're on our own land.

Sure thing. I'll throw out another analogy. You are a restaurant owner who happens to actively dislike black people. You own the restaurant, and it is your "own land." Does it follow that you can "censor" - e.g., deny access, refuse service, etc. - black people from going to your restaurant? (Hint - read the 1964 Civil Rights Act.)

I'm not anti-gay, anti-lesbian, anti-transgendered, but I am pro-freedom.

Please understand that you being pro-freedom necessarily implies that other people have the right to enjoy their freedoms as well, such as freedom from your asshatted bigotry.

Re:Private Property rights exist in virtual worlds

Now the GLBT folks are mad because they created their own private property, and the "big government" in the game said NO. This is even funnier now because the group that has historically been known to work against individual rights is now being hampered by their own policies.

Err, it's not that funny. I think for as much as they've "historically been known to work against individual rights" they've been more known to be working FOR individual rights, namely, that no one from "big government" to anyone else should dictate who they fall in love with or what kind of sex they choose to have and with whom.

Seriously, the person who complained about a guild listing itself as "GLBT-friendly" was being a total ass, and the complaint have been treated accordingly. These guys weren't looking to ban players who casually throw around term "that's so gay", just trying to politely and fairly discretely advertise their group in a coded language to other people who might feel likewise.

In Short...

Person is mad because Blizzard discrimanted againts them discriminating.

Wait..

So, there are people that play WoW that *aren't* homosexual? I don't believe it.
 
;)

Re:Wait..

Not 'getting any' != homosexual

Yeah, really, if not 'getting any' = homosexual then /. would be the biggest gay site on the web.

Stop that!

> So I decided to create my own guild, which would be GLBT friendly.' Sometimes singing, other times slogging her way through WOW's exacting echelons to a formidable level 60, Andrews had big endgame plans for her developing guild--until January 12, 2006, that is, when a note from publisher Blizzard blinkered everything."

Sometimes singing? Andrews? Her?

"Stop that! Stop that! You're not going into a song while I'm here. Now listen, lass. In twenty levels, you're getting married to a girl whose Tauren father pwns the biggest tracts of open land in all of Kalimdor!"

This shouldn't even be an issue.

If players would form/join guilds based on the player's skill or helpfulness or other such ways that directly affect gameplay, then we wouldn't be having this problem.

Ultimately, who cares? If people weren't such dicks and played the game without resorting to "omg u r a fag gtfo" then people wouldn't feel the need to make these guilds.

Of course, even then it wouldn't go away entirely, as people would form guilds just to try to be different.

My guild consists of men and women of differing ages, races, nationalities, and sexual orientations (really - I'm not joking), and we all have fun and just play the damn game. We don't care if one of our members is gay because IT DOESN'T MATTER. It doesn't give you a stat bonus, it doesn't make you a better player, so who cares?

I say leave the politics out of the game and just HAVE FUN!

Re:This shouldn't even be an issue.

The thing is, not everybody plays MMORPGs will the sole desire of leveling up. A lot of people play for the social aspect, and nobody wants to hang around somebody who has you, no matter how good that person may be. If your goal isn't to gain XP faster than anybody else, it makes a lot of sense to join a group of people you like rather than a group of good players.

Well, I agree.

Our guild doesn't care if you're gay, straight, black, white, democrat, or republican. It just has no place it the game.

However, all the jews are losing 50 DKP tomorrow for killing our Lord and savior. Sorry, but if you nail the son of God to a 2x4, you're not going to get that epic chest piece.

Re:Well, I agree.

Dude, he was totally a boss. Some people would say The Boss. Clearly he should drop epic gear.

He doesn't. but there is a gaurd next to him that drops an epic polearm, but only AFTER he stabs the boss.
20 man raid.

sorry, could let that pass over....

um

You can turn off all the chat channels in the game. I leave them all off. That way I don't have to hear about Chuck Norris...and how gay he is.

Sex & Violence

I am amazed by how much fuzz anything related to sexuality is generating. For crying out loud, you are playing a game in which the basic premise, like in most other games, is to kill and plunder. There are no moral problems with this because you are Good and they are Bad. But if someone say "gay", or starts an LBGT guild - then what an outrage. No more is the game good "family" entertainment, no indeed, it needs to be cleaned up, the little ones need to be protected.

Tor

Singing?

Were you singing "The internet is for porn..."?

Why is this even an issue?

I mean, WoW isn't that great, it's way less realistic than say Sims 2, where noone cares what your romantic gender preference is, or even if you're half-alien for that matter.

I'm sorry, but I'm far more worried about the racial slurs I keep hearing whenever I try to play a Blizzard game, and the anti-gay slurs as well.

Just because some people don't swear a lot - which I stopped doing before I made Sergeant in the Army - some people make assumptions about them that are totally lame.

Cute

Is it wrong of me to not care about the civil rights issue, but instead that she's one very cute nerd!

The Problem Is Blizzard

The problem here is not about free speech, free speech is only free in public, in private you have to obide by what the owners of the private area tell you.

The problem is that Blizzard does not correctly enforce their own policies. This person wanted to create a non-hostile environment for people that get offended by terms like 'man thats gay', or 'shut up fag'. Blizzard's own policies go against that type of speech in the first place, but it would seem impossible to effectivly enforce somthing like that on such a large scale. So instead of reporting every single person that made an offensive comment, why not create a guild that does not allow people to talk in a non-discrimanatory matter, which is what this person tried to do. Blizzard then shuts her down, even though the guild she was creating was in effect trying to do exactly what their policies say.

Blizzard is clearly in the 'morally wrong' here, but not the 'legal wrong'. They are allowed to do what they want in their own 'private club', but they should expect a public backlash when they single out people for trying to create a non-hostile environment in what they perceive as a hostile one.

Rolling for drops...

... Do they roll for need? Greed? Better matches the color of their boots?

Only guilds where you'll see a lvl 60 toting a lvl 20 staff 'cuz it looks cuter.'

I kid.

Legal action may not be the best alternative.

From TFA:

Legal definitions haven't kept pace, and as in the mythical Wild Western frontier the Internet is often likened to, law and order are sometimes meted out in squeaky-wheel fashion.

Opinions about bringing sociopolitical et al. issues into WoW aside, I think the last thing that needs to happen is to have this sent to court.

To have some U.S. court decide what kind of speech is or is not acceptable in privately-run MMORPGs is counterproductive. I don't think it's the kind of thing a court needs to arbitrate, as much as individual game companies do, with customers deciding that if being able to mention Christians, GLBTers, or Bull Moose party members is of paramount importance for the enjoyment of an MMORPG, then 1) It would seem then that the quality of the game is secondary anyway, so 2) they can take their cash and their time to some other game.

And yes, we can crow as idealists about free-as-in-speech and about how this applies, but if the notion of GLBT guild-theming went to court under the challenge of free speech, I bet that no matter the outcome, the vulgar nature of the chat channels would be next.

Then do you know what would happen? Enter a big mess, as legislators take notice of kids above the age of 13 exposed to areas where profanity and sexually suggestive material runs absolutely rampant, "won't somebody save the children" and before we know it, we're force-fed a bunch of new regulations for "open" chat channels that had once been so gleefully populated by homophobes, misogynists, and decent people.

I agree that subscriber action is the best action for situations like this, and that getting courts involved is going to open a can of worms that would make a great big PITA for MMORPGs and MMORPGers.

I don't get it

I have no desire to discuss sexual preferences or anything else of a personal nature in an online game. Is that a bad thing? Am I the only one? If you don't tell me, I won't know. If you want to discuss your sexual preferences, there are plenty of appropriate services to do that. An mmorpg is not one of them. By the way, as a matter of equality, could somone advertise a "heterosexual friendly" guild? If not, you've set a double standard.

Honestly, people...

If someone wants to make a private, enclosed community that's non-discriminatory ("GBLT-friendly" != "GBLT-only,") then why not let them? Why all of the backlash from some /. posters? I thought we were better than this.

Soapbox rant of the whale

I think it's fair to say that there are WOW male players whose avatars are female, and vice versa. Some of these roleplay. What if someone wanted to roleplay as a gay character? Is that not allowed, and why not? The article mentions that there have been gay MMORPGers for years and they've dealt with this shit, mainly by ignoring it and having a good time anyway - however, they shouldn't have to ignore it. What's wrong with them wanting to belond to an organization where they know they won't have to endure insulting language coming from their supposed 'mates'? Using the word gay as a pejorative is widespread; trolls use it, I occasionally use it and you might use it as well. It's almost impossible not to blurt it out if you grew up in the American education system where it's as entrenched as tater tots and pop quizzes. I understand that. It goes beyond 'just' the word gay, however; it's a seemingly unending wave of dialogue that can only be described as "homophobic" at best and "hate speech" at worst. The argument that it should be kept out of the game because this is supposed to be entertainment is invalid; if game only dialogue were allowed then there'd just be the raid leader screaming and everyone bickering over loot. The fact is that our everyday lives creep into this game as part of the natural draw of MMORPGs: social interaction, not isolation. If you want to keep it game only then don't allow for any player-to-player communication or play Elder Scrolls. Reading any guild's message board will lead you to the conclusion that people enjoy interacting on all levels: WOW has become a big part of some of these people's lives and the mixing of personal and "WOW" life is pretty common from what I've seen. It's silly to say that discussion of one's sexual orientation in a non-insulting manner is not allowed. It's even sillier to say that discussion of one's personal life ought to be left outside of the game, because then you'd have to ban sob stories of boy/girlfriends and bitching about the domestic situation and that's not gonna happen. Just as marriage doesn't seem to be a very sacred institution in America, WOW is permeated throughout with the often banal, sometimes amusing and always personal accounts of one's real life. Why limit that to heterosexuals? Shouldn't gay men and women, and the transgendered, and whatever other group you want to throw in there be just as miserable as the rest of us? Finally, to address that tired old issue: it's a GLBT friendly guild, not a GLBT only guild.

Real World Politics in the Game Dangerous...

So what happens when the "Jesus Freaks" guild attacks the "Rainbow Guild"? If it was the "Black Dragons" attacking the "Iron Tigers" or something like that, the Iron Tigers would understand it is a game and all in fun. But are the "Rainbow Guild" going to complain that they are being discriminated against by the "Jesus Freaks" guild? What happens if the "Bowman of Allah" attack and kill the "Jesus Freaks"? Are the "Jesus Freaks" gonna get in a big huff and cry about it? What happens when the "Republican Ogre League" attacks the "Democrat Swordsmen"? Doesn't anyone see how the whole thing could become a mess really quick?

It is not discriminating against anyone to not allow real world affiliations in a game. Because a game involves violence, you want the victims and perpetrators of violence to be completly fictional groups. If you have real life affiliations like Sex, Race, Religion, Sexual Preference, and it is going to cause all kinds of problems.

I realize that nowadays, politically correct posturing trumps common sense, and so people are going to cry that they are being discriminated against because they can't create a Gay, Bi, Lesbian, Transexual clan... and the threats of lawsuits will probably give them their way. But demanding to be allowed to make a GLBT guild, when all other real world affiliations are banned, is just stupid. GLBT are not discriminated from playing the game, or from starting clans, but they are (or where) banned from bringing real world issues into a totally fantasy escapist game.

yowsers

here is a general rule of thumb: Anyone can take offence at Anything Anyone says or does.

humans are like that. one person could take offence that there is not GBLT friendly guilds and want something done about it... why should we only cater to one set of whiners needs? what if someone takes offence at a GBLT friendly guild? what do we do about them? how do we make everyone happy?

do we disregard the people who find the GBLT friendly guild offencive and call them biggots? or do we disregard the people who find the lack of GBLT friendly guilds offencive and call them biggots? favoring one thing over another and calling all those who oppose "evil" makes you just as "evil" as they. what people dont understand is that good and evil is not absolute... its relative (to the side you are on).

insults are only insults when they are precieved as one. noone else can MAKE you feel anything, the only person in the universe that can MAKE you feel a certian way is you.
flame me all you want, the only one who is going to care is you.

next time someone says something is gay, say "no, thats hetero!" now you both sound like an idiot and who cares what an idiot says?

*whew* (deep breath) and.... relax.

-ManJerk

Political Correctness 1, Adam Smith 0

"players may not transmit or post any content or language which, in the sole and absolute discretion of Blizzard Entertainment, is deemed to be offensive,"

What part of that is unclear? Don't like it? Don't give them your money.

You call it censorship? I call it freedom of association.

Personally, I disagree with Blizzard's decision to cave in to the PC police. But you know what? If I *really* didn't like it, I could quit. So I can't say much beyond that, can I? It's their game, they made a business decision (the cost in lost memberships for allowing the practice is, in their opinion LESS THAN the cost of banning it).

Language evolves as does slang, deal with it

Do people who consider themselves 'gay' and use that term to describe themselves even realize that the original meaning of the word simply meant "happy"? It was gradually taken over by other uses and now it is generally accepted as meaning 'homosexual' and to many people it means 'male homosexual' exclusively.

There are parts of the country where soda is referred to as 'pop' but that doesn't mean people are asking you for a grandparent or a punch in the jaw when they say "give me a pop". In the same way in my encounters with people saying "that's totally gay" they don't mean "that's totally homosexual" or "I hate that in the same way I hate homosexuals" they in fact mean it as "that's totally stupid/absurd/odd". It is an ALTERNATE SLANG MEANING that has been appropriated by a subset of the culture, just as homosexuals and society re-appropriated the word 'gay' itself about a generation or two ago.

In New England we say 'wicked' to mean 'very', e.g. "The new console is wicked cool". However in this usage it has nothing to do with being evil. In some places in NY people use 'mad' the same way New Englanders use wicked, but they don't mean angry in any way. A word can have two different and unrelated meanings!

To be offended by an alternate use of a word you happen to associate with is silly when it's patently not being used offensively. Could it be used offensively? Has it been? Yes. But this is not one of those examples. And in the case of the word gay itself the argument even becomes hypocrtical since gay already had a different meaning which has been appropriated by today's culture to mean something completely different. Language evolves, and slang is simply a genetic mutation of language, often here today gone tomorrow. If you can't get over that then you're taking yourself way too seriously and need to find a better battle to fight.

Re:Language evolves as does slang, deal with it

Tell you what, why don't you try applying that logic to words like "nigger", "wop", "kike", "chink", and so on. Get on WoW and complain about Blizzard being "jew cheap" about loot. Does the idea make you uncomfortable? It should. It makes me uncomfortable writing about it. But if using "gay" in a derogatory manner doesn't make you just as uncomfortable then you've got a problem.

Wow, just shooting from the hip aren't you. You just assumed from the start I was trying to advocate the use of gay as a derogatory term. did you even read my whole comment? I specifically said that in the given context not only was it not being used as a derogatory term for homosexuals, but that it had a different meaning altogether unrelated to sexual orientation. Why can't people understand that? I even gave you two examples of other words - 'wicked', and 'mad' - and how regional slang uses them to mean 'very' but without any relation to the other meanings of those words. I was pointing out that in the context it was being used, the term 'gay' meant stupid or perhpas absurd, but not in any relation to someone being gay. Or that the person using it that way thinks gays are stupid or absurd. If you ever encounter someone who says something like "that rule is gay" and you confront them on it they'll always point out they don't mean it as a derogatory homosexual remark, and not because they're just some backpedaling racist, most kids don't even realize someone would take offense at it because to them it's wholly unrelated in their mind. It's unrelated to gays and gay culture! You personally seem to to think that because they use gay to mean 'absurd' they are therefore making some larger political statement that they believe all homosexuals to be absurd, but it's not the case. The racial terms you listed above are purely racial slurs (except for chink, see your other replies). So if I say "there's a chink in your defenses! we will surely destroy you!" Does that mean I am implying there is either an actual asian in your defenses and that is why they are weak, because I believe asians to be weak? You don't concede that it's entirely possible the word could have an alternate non-deragatory meaning? For fuck's sake, I know gay rhode island kids who themselves have exclaimed "that's wicked gay!" and they weren't talking about their boyfriend.

As to the going on WoW and complaing about something being "jew cheap" you're not even giving some alternate meaning of jew there, you're using it as a classic deragatory slur against jews and the falsehood they are miserly, so how does that even work as an example? In addition you're trying to take words which have exclusively been used as slurs (jew, nigger, wop) and sticking them into a context in which they cannot fit because of the huge stigma attached to those words. My point also was based on the fact that gay has been used widely in our recent cultural history with a completely different meaning that has no such stigma. So just because 'gay' or some other word may be transmutable, that doesn't mean any old slur with a history behind it could be. I'm not gay bashing here, I'm not advocating racism, it's stupid and useless and based on utter falsehoods. But for a group of people to change the meaning of a word and use it to represent themselves and somehow think they then have exclusive control over the future evolution of that word is a ludicrous assertion. Language is an amorphus thing, and it will continue to change, it IS POSSIBLE for two words to have DIFFERENT AND UNRELATED meanings.

The hate speech debate

Where does using a word stop being funny and become hate speech? In the context of the replies here the phrase, "That is sooo gaayyy" merely tries to bring levity to what could be a flame-rife topic. But saying to a complete stranger, "that faggot stole my (insert cool WOW item here)" or "That armor is gay" is offensive. There are far more effective ways of conveying how lame a thing is without going out of your way to offend (such as, "you are a jackass" or "that armor was forged in the fires of useless, just like you").

Calling things "gay" and people "faggot" is just freaking retarded...</sarcasm>

Already old

Wasn't this covered enough about 3 months ago?

Comments from a Runescape Moderator

The homophobic tendencies of WoW surely pale in comparison to Runescape. The average age of a Runescaper is around 14. In highschool and juniorhigh, "gay" is a common staple of the vernacular.

Runescape's censor filter automatically blocks the word gay entirely. However, the word "gae" is used so often by the general populace that I usually don't bother to report it. It is always used as a synonym for "bad"..

After some reflection on this story, I will ask the Runescape players saying "gae" to find another or risk being reported for the basic rule violation of intentionally bypassing the censor.

Welcome to the Internet

"'... last summer a friend introduced me to WOW, and I really liked it, though I didn't care for remarks many of the players made, like the fact that everything is apparently so gay when it's bad." Come out from under your rock have you? Welcome to the internet, with its own language. Thats the problem with WoW, all these people who have never before been exposed to 'our' world, are now diving in, and are not liking it.

Some marketing advice

Instead of GLBT, use GBLT or a similar form (maybe even BLT-G if you're feeling gangsta). Everyone loves BLTs (except maybe vegetarians, but they're gay).

please remove the tag

please remove the insensitive "gay" tag and just put "stupid" like with those april fools stories! oh, wait..

Myopic?

Having been a slashdot reader for years, I suppose I shouldn't be shocked at the lack of insight some of the comments here have shown. Seriously though, comments like "don't take your sexuality/politics to a game" or "words never hurt anyone"... Who do you think you're fooling?

If the controversy had been over a topic involving racism, I wonder if some of you would have been as quick to jump onto the Get-Over-It bandwagon. I will grant that not being gay/bisexual/transgendered, perhaps you are unaware of the daily things which people talk about and seem commonplace for many, yet are not the same for LGBT folks. In a LGBT-friendly guild, you do not have to worry about saying "I am going to the movies with my boyfriend" if you are male.

More to the point, the issue was never Blizzard kept those groups from being around, but that they were not allowed to talk about it. If "words do not hurt" as you put it, then I suppose you are the type of person to refer to your African American friends as n*****s? No? Oh, then I suppose your analogy was incorrect.

Blizzard is exercising their own free speech

If blizzard wishes to deny someone the right to play their game, they are just exercising a form of speech. Forcing them to allow something, is taking away their freedom. If this was the government, then it would be a completely different situation. BUT this is a PRIVATE ran game and business. Just like how a bar can deny a person entry for whatever reason they deem to be fit, a game can do exactly the same. While we might not view it as being ethical in some form, it is their choice. If they lose business over it, they will probably change their policy. Anyways, way blown out of proportion. It really is jus gay ... er I mean retarded, er ... jewish errr ... Ah forget it. Point that is being made, is words evolve. I know people that are homosexual, that use the word gay in that way. Just like how gay use to mean happy, it is now tranforming into meaning stupid or lame or whatever. Just like how nigger evolved from an ok term, to a slur, to a semi-slur when said by certain people.

Welcome to Hicksville, USA

Almost everyone who uses "gay" in their regular vocabulary as something that is bad, generally has literally never actually met a gay person. I didn't meet one until I got to college! (But I never used the term. I was never much into slang as a child anyway). It's probably not meant to be directly offensive by, oh, 75% of the people who use it. You can't insult someone who isn't there, and they fail to realize that the Internet is a little bigger than their little town in rural America.

No, you misread!

"like the fact that everything is apparently so gay when it's bad."

It's not gay, it's ghey! Completely different words!

Oh wow...

That real chick in the picture (they never really say who she is, but it's implied it's the person who started the guild) is HAWT. Holy crap, my brain hurts. /would hit it //even if her knees were like knives ///what do you mean, "this isn't Fark"?

Good. Ban Away.

How about this, just play the fuckin game? I could care less if you're a top or bottom in RL, just swing your sword or cast some spells, talk about the raid/quest you're on and leave it there.

I think Blizzard should have stuck to its guns and not allowed any of this. I don't talk about banging chicks and hooking up while in online games so why exactly does it need to be different for you?

Needing to be part of a sheltered GLBT guild... now, *that* is gay. I don't need a support system to be straight, maybe that is a sign of how lame you folks really are. Give it up, stop force feeding your lifestyle on the rest of us, and do whatever the hell you want to in your bedroom... but leave it there.

I'm With Blizzard

There's no reason for anyone to talk about their sexual habits in WoW. No good will ever come out of it.

Level 60 LFG Blackrock Spire, BTW I'm transexual

*Sigh*

After reading the 1UP article, I felt sick. Not sick in the sense that I felt bad for Andrews, but sick in the sense that the whole thing is retarded and has been blown out of proportion. Do I care if Oz is GLBT? Not really - I'm there to play a game, not to discuss sexual orientation. Do I think Blizzard could have handled the situation better? Yes. Is Blizzard anti-GLBT? Heck no. They just don't want you spazzing out about your sexual orientation, and I all I can say is, word up! It's a game people. The day you lose sight of that is the day you shouldn't be playing anymore games. I, for one, play games to get away from life...people dragging political issues like being gay or transsexual into the game just ruin it for the people who want to sit back, have fun, and try to play enough to justify that $15/month ;)

OMG! what a reason to start playing

FTA: "It should be clear that mentioning that you are gay is no different from mentioning that you are left-handed or short or from the West Coast."

    and I just found the perfect name for my new guild........

The Short, Gay, Left-Handed, West Coasters Guild

They Own the Game, You Play by Their Rules

A resounding DUH but they own the game. If you don't like how they run it, cancel your subscription. That's just what we need, more n00bs crying because they are too stupid to realize they should change games. I don't particularly like the fact that on MMO's I have to play with kids but that said, as soon as some game comes out with an adults only server, I'll be there. I'd happily pay an extra fee to have a mature audience to play with. There's a whole group of gamers out there looking for the same thing but the marketers are not seeing it. Other thing is MMO's that allow you to combine groups. I often play with my wife and in order to get a group, we have to split our group or lead. That makes no sense. You might have 100 groups of 3 floating around that could be 50 groups of 6. That = players not playing. Bad move MMOs!

Re:Maybe People Just Want to Play

Wasn't that the entire point of the guild--so that like-mindedly tolerant and accepting people could play a game together, without the crap from second-graders who think "gay" is a slur?

Re:Maybe People Just Want to Play

I completely agree. I tried WoW for a few days, and decided it wasn't for me. I wasn't on a role playing server, but still that kind of stuff was an INSTANT turn off from the game. I was enjoying walking around killing low level creatures when two idiots (who I did report) decided to run through the area yelling to everyone. It went something like this:

Dick Haney: Look out Georgy! Terrorists!
Prezy-Dent: Oh no, protect me Dick Haney!
Dick Haney: Don't worry, I'll blow them up...

And on and on and on. Clear, OBVIOUS, greifing. They were out to do nothing about annoy people. That was within the first half-hour I played the game. If I'm going to play a MMO I want to play a MMO. I don't want nonsense (relative to the game world) about the president of the US, advertising for GLBT guilds, or anything else like that. The game is supposed to be escapist. You want to do all that stuff, go to second life (a sandbox) or invent a virtual world that is supposed to mirror the real world in many ways.

And I wouldn't care if everyone in your guild WAS GLBT. You could advertise yourself outside of WoW as the GLBT guild, but don't drag that kind of stuff into the game. p>While I understand how the person felt with all the "this is gay" (I got sick of it real fast and I'm straight, so I can see how they felt), there is no need to draw that into the game and start a GLBT guild. Just ignore those people, or report it to Blizzard and see if they'll give the person a warning.

Re:Maybe People Just Want to Play

Do you see guilds/factions outright proclaming their heterosexualness out there?

All the time. They're the guys screaming "gay" "fags" etc every 10 seconds. The majority makes their declaration by demonstration.

Only minority groups have to make explicit declarations, in order to notify potential members that they are different from the masses. This works as both an advertisement and a warning.

~Rebecca

Re:Maybe People Just Want to Play

I still find some comedic value in old slashdot cliches.

You must be new here.

Re:Maybe People Just Want to Play

Your problem is that you fundamentally misunderstand the concept of a *multiplayer* game. It's not "escapist" any more than playing basketball down at the park is escapist, and "real life" issues are just as valid in WoW as they would be on a basketball court. Gay this and fag that is as annoying in WoW as nigger this and nigger that is at a park. If you want escapism, do it with either solo or with a carefully selected group of other people.

Blizzard, by the way, (and this may change but I doubt it will) does not generally police channel speech, and GMs are incredibly slow to respond to even extremely outrageous actions. So "report people using the word gay" is hardly a reasonable answer. Actively attempting to create an environment that is more friendly is a totally acceptable reaction. I've belonged to a guild were were didn't allow trash talk or l33t speak on guild channel. Thats more or less the same thing as the guild in TFA was doing.

Re:This story is so gay

But its okay that this person has to have the rest of the WoW force their antigay agenda on her?

Re:This story is so gay

I think it's just people manufacturing a perceived controversy because they see things one way, and everyone else doesn't give two shits.

Perhaps it's because everyone else won't get beaten to death and chained to a fencepost, and then have their funeral picketed by lunatics [wikipedia.org] just for being who they are.

Maybe that's why they see this as controversial.

Re:Maybe People Just Want to Play

Good point. In fact, I've played WoW since Day 1, and I've never heard anyone say that something was "gay." Maybe it's because I chose an RP server in the hopes of finding more mature players, maybe not. Nonetheless, it seems suspicious that one would need to specifically form and market a guild as GLBT friendly guild simply to avoid bigotry. What would have made more sense would have been to start and guild, make it clear during recruiting that such language would not be tolerated, and go about one's business. Instead, the group seems to have raised the war flag and claiming discrimination, when in fact, WoW seems to deliver equal opportunity banning of guilds that talk about sexuxality. Americans have a soft spot when it comes to any sort of situation where a minority group may be being discriminated against, and there are some folks out there who are more than happy to exploit this to further their own aims and finances. Expect to see a lawsuit seeking damages within 6 months.

Re:Maybe People Just Want to Play

Minorities that aren't gay maybe. These same people who claim tolerance do a 180 when it becomes a gay thing. And for each person who has some sign of carrying about minorities there are probably at least 2 (well maybe 1.5) people who have no care at all. Racism and bigotry are alive and well in America, it just has taken on some new names and new victims.

Re:Maybe People Just Want to Play

I wonder how many people said that same thing when black people or women were fighting for their rights. It doesn't matter what the platform, until those rights are attained, no one should be "safe" from the message of those fighting for equality.

Re:This story is so gay

As soon as I saw it had been tagged "gay" I rushed in to make this point.

Hysterical.

Re:Maybe People Just Want to Play

Yet at the same time there were plenty of Christian guilds that were not targeted.

If they want to eliminate all guilds with messages from rl, thats fine. But they need to target everyone equally, not just certain ones.

Re:This story is so gay

In all seriousness, I don't want to deal with Christianity [christiangamer.org] in an online game. /ignore users that say things you don't want to hear and please don't try to force your Christian agenda on the rest of us.

That battle-axe swings both ways, to coin a phrase.

Re:This story is so gay

.... wait, how is having my own little gay club that you don't have to join 'forcing my gay agenda on you'?

Re:This story is so gay

Well, presumeably part of the "gay agenda" is to not have to hide one's identity, and instead to be accepted, as gay, as a full first-class member of society.

So by proclaiming that one is gay, and by advertising for a gay guild without being censored by the authorities, you have "forced" people to consider the fact that people playing the game may actually be gay, and that they have the same rights to speech and to association as all other citizens.

That's the logic, such as it is.

All these people keep saying they don't want to hear about it, because they don't care. This is nonsense, they obviously care very much or they'd let it be, instead of feeling like you are imposing on them merely by declaring your existence. What they really mean is that they don't want to hear anything about gay people, so they can pretend everyone is straight. This is why having your own little gay club offends them -- they can no longer pretend that people in that guild are straight, and you have "forced" them to realize that they are sharing a game server with a homosexual.

It's as lame an answer as saying that it's the GLBT groups who brough sexual preference into the game in the first place. No, it's the people using "faggot" as their pejorative of choice that brought the issue of homophobia into the game. A GLBT group is just an attempt to escape from this environment. It's as ludicrous as blaming a black person for bringing race issues into the game when he complains that everyone is tossing "nigger" around with reckless abandon.

Oh, but of course racism is frowned upon by mainstream society, and thus spewing "lol u nigger" would be frowned upon. It's still socially acceptable to be a homophobe, so "i hate teh gheys" is fine, everyday speech and "hey I'm gay that offends me" is bringing up issues that don't belong in the game.

Re:Maybe People Just Want to Play

By that logic, the "christian" guilds that have popped up should suffer the same fate.

I mean, if your going to argue that a gay guild is forcing a message on people simply by existing, then a religious guild is doing likewise. If it's unfair for the guild to allow/exclude membership based on RL factors, like being gay, then it's likewise unfair to restrict membership based on religion.

And if you take the opposite approach, which is to say that people can form guilds based on whatever criteria they like (excluding guilds that violate the game rules, like professional gold farming guilds and greifing guilds), then the gay guild is in the clear, as is the religious one.

I'd opt for the latter approach. As long as the people in the guild aren't making life difficult for the people outside of the guild, there should be no problem.

Re:This story is so gay

Right. "Your ignore list is full." anyone? Just because you can ignore someone does not make their behavior acceptable or appropriate.

Re:This story is so gay

"In all seriousness, I don't want to deal with homosexuality in an online game. "

I guess you could do what they used to do in the real world....on Sat. night, your guild goes out, gets drunk and finds gay guilders to beat up....

Re:This story is so gay

I just fail to see an agenda. Are they making you join? Are they forcing you to be gay? Are they forcing you to associate with homosexuals? No, they're not. You don't have to even acknowledge the fact that they've formed an organization (which you don't have to join or associate with in any way) and if you want, you can ignore it altogether! I'm sure they rather you did.

But would you rather say that you're offended by the mere existence of homosexuality? Get over it. Like Werbach's quote from TFA, "With over 5 million users, WOW is the size of Chicago. And like Chicago, it has homosexuals, homophobes, and everything in between."

Get back to me when you're forced to associate with people you don't like.

Re:Maybe People Just Want to Play

So which side are you arguing? It sounds like both to me. Both the LGBT-friendly guild and the idiots spamming "u r gay" in the barrens all day are both intruding with a "message" into everyone else's gameplay.

So are the folks bitching about the "chinese gold farmers", the "twinks in the 10-19 bg" and everything else.

Your speech in game is (probably) a reflection of the cultural norms that you grew up with/live in. Sure, some people are actually role-playing, but most people on those games aren't. Their character is them, they are their character. Doesn't matter that the toon looks like a bull standing on two legs, it talks like an American (or Canadian, or $European_Country, or otherise). How many names are really appropriate to the character they are on? Is the game world even developed thouroughly enough to have such ideas?

I guess my point is: unless you want the policy fairly enforced, and want to pay for Blizzard to have enough CSR folks to deal with every 15 year old who's decided that anything he doesn't like "iz ghey" or however it is being mispelled these days, you can't throw stones at the LGBT folks recruiting. Nor can you throw stones against a pro- or anti- twink guild, and that's a much more concrete, in-game thing.

Re:Maybe People Just Want to Play

>>Maybe they would like to forget about all the
>>political crap-ola with which we are inundated
>>constantly in our activist-infested world for a
>>change, and just go somewhere where they don't
>>have to think about it.

You want freedom from responsibility -- a one-sided world where you can say whatever you want about anyone and not have them react. You can do that if you are in a group who shares your beliefs, but when you're in mixed public, the civic rules of society apply. The general world of MMORPG is an open forum with lots of diverse people, not just people who like hearing "fag" equated with "bad". If you want a more closed world, create a guild or find another outlet.

If you're straight you probably don't mind hearing "ha ha, dude you got nuked, you are so gay". If you're white, you may not mind hearing "ha ha, dude, you're as dumb as a nigger". (Although whites are MUCH more sensitive to racial prejudice than homophobia.) If you're gay or black or whatever, hearing these kind of casual insults stands out every time and is a slap in the face. You can either choose to suppress your emotions, or deal with them and speak up, or avoid them, e.g. creating a GLBT guild. Just because you may want to insult someone does not mean they have to take it.

Re:Maybe People Just Want to Play

the answer: DISabling any kind of personal speech in the game. you cannot keep it out unless you shut everyone's mouthes. i would have no problem with playing a game where all i can do or say is already pre-set in the game. limit everyone to the little emotes like /dance and /cry, /yes and /no, then you take away their ability to say OMG THAT'S GAY!!! and presto, it's only offensive if blizzard put it in the game. which reminds me, why do they enable the toons to strip themselves down to their skivvies and dance for money? that is so annoying, and unavoidable since it's in the game.

/my two cents

Re:This story is so gay

What, exactly, is the "gay agenda" again? I keep forgetting. Wasn't it something about not being treated as second-class citizens for being gay? Yes, they have absolutely no right to insist that we treat like human beings. Or do you mean another agenda, like their plot to take over the world and force all the rest of us to be gay too?

Married het female, if you're wondering. I'm wondering how a comment about with the words gay agenda got modded up. That smacks of anti-gay paranoia.

Re:Maybe People Just Want to Play

You don't always have the right to intrude your "message" into everyone else's consciousness.

Actually, in public places they do. You know... First admentment and whatnot.

But in private places like WoW... Well it is a matter of tresspassing.

Think of it like this...

Your invited to someone's house to play AD&D. During the game, one of the players keeps on going on a diatribe how the other player is oppressing his sexual orientation.

You can of course say "You... You shut the hell up!" or ignore him, but he can go on and on as long as the owner of the house says he can. You as a guest of that house cannot remove the other person or force him to be silent. You can of course take your issue up with the house owner, but you do not have a single right or legal ability to make that other person be silent.

So as long as the owner approves either with consent or non-action, the person making this activist diatribe has the right to implant his agenda into your mind via means of sounds and images (as long as those sounds and images are legal).

You can of course always leave...

However, if it was your house... Then you can remove the guy from your premises, but obviously none of us own the WoW servers.

Even if it is a game, it is not your game. It is Blizzard's game and you have as much rights on their property as they say you do.

If they let people do this to you, then either you need to ignore it, take it up with Blizzard, or quit.

Re:In all seriousness... Lame Logic

Hmm, so forcing "agendas" is bad, and forcing your personal "agenda" i.e. "i only wanna see the world i wanna see" is just dandy (lol i'll keep the pun!)?! Perhaps re "agendas" you should follow your own advice "ignore users that say things you don't want to hear and please don't try to force your ... agenda on the rest of us. (it only needed the smallest of edits after all). Oh btw in the interest of full(ish) disclosure i don't play WoW, am not gay, do live in the real world, don't have problems with people who do play WoW or who happened to be gay/bisexual (add any other maligned group here).

The strange thing is...

When people bark that you're making a "political statement" by walking down the street holding hands, one grows quite tired of other people's "politics" and moves simply to ignoring them and getting on with life, but sure as hell not by disappearing into anonymity for your comfort. Don't like it? Don't look.

Re:Maybe People Just Want to Play

ignoring your comments about the transgendered (who in some cases you probably wouldn't spot), I'd like you, AC, to clarify your statement about bisexuals.

When you say that Bisexuals do not exist, are you saying that anyone who has ever had a homosexual experience is homosexual, or that anyone who has ever had a heterosexual experience is heterosexual or what? I'm confused.

Ira

Re:Maybe People Just Want to Play

Maybe they associate themselves because they want to end bigotry based on gender and sexuality, rather than seeking to make everyone just a little less bigoted like you so they can accept gay people, too.

Re:I've said it before, I'll say it again.

MOD PARENT DOWN, ignorance-flaimbait-poor thought. I have rarely seen a less thought out and more ignorant post in a majority of my life. "Making a GLBT "friendly" guild is fucking dumb. Mind-numbingly idiotic. You are supposed to be in a game making guilds about game-ish things... " Lets see, How about playing the game for fun? Maybe it is not fun or satisfying to play a game where people use homophobic language and slang in a derogatory manner to detonate that one's way of life is inherently bad or evil? Surely making a guild so you can ENJOY THE GAME is a "game-ish" thing? "Again, keep your choices about flesh and sex out of the god damn game. If sombody uses the word "gay" and it offends you, then we're all terribly sorry that a word that describes your sexual orientation has also come to be synonymous with something bad. Maybe you should see a phsychiatrist about that and leave players alone." IGNORANCE! I don't think they were complaining about people saying "oh no, did you hear jimmy is gay?". No, it wasn't that the word has "become" synonymous, it is that it was USED as a SYNONYM to designate something bad. EX: "That's gay" "You fag" "stupid Homo". Also lets draw eyes to that last line, "Maybe you should see a phsychiatrist about that and leave players alone.". SO because people are offended by people saying that they are worthless and their way of life is bad and evil, they need to see a psychiatrist? It's ignorance like this that promotes unhealthy social interactions that the youth of this nation have become accustomed to. Disclaimer: I am a white male college student who is of a straight orientation, before you think i'm biased. However ignorance offends me to such an extent, and yours borders on stupidity.

Re:Maybe People Just Want to Play

The problem here is that when you bring politicized language into a public space, you're opening the door for political opinions. The word gay used in a pejorative fashion is as offensive to some as the "N word", it's necessarily politicized and if you would allow people to have free speech in that regard then you have to allow dissent. Would you advocate for a public space where people can say "nigger" all they want but complaining is strictly dissallowed?

Re:Just have to...

I was especially disappointed to learn that Blizzard also shut down the Super Adventure Club's guild!

Yes, people *do* just want to play

You don't always have the right to intrude your "message" into everyone else's consciousness.

Did you read TFA? Nobody's trying to "intrude" any "message", unless it's the person who tried to get the GLBT Guild banned. The only purpose of the guild was for people with similar interests to play together. I've never played this MMOG, but I assume that's the main reason people join guilds.

People love to accuse gays of "activism" and "recruiting", when what they really mean is, "STFU, so I can pretend you don't exist."

MOD PARENT UP!

The parent poster gives the only voice of reason in this stupid God damned debate.

Re:homosexuality vs biology

you can still write books about natural occurance of homosexuality

Re:homosexuality vs biology

who says it is not natures way of population control? to pu it in slash-terms
get $population density; if $population density = think of it in microsofting terms "it's not a bug it's a feature" in other words reboot and live with it.
and just so you know... as a wiccan i am offended by closed minded fools noooo, i am not talking about you

Re:Maybe People Just Want to Play

Maybe they would like to forget about all the political crap-ola with which we are inundated constantly in our activist-infested world for a change, and just go somewhere where they don't have to think about it.

If they want to get away from politics, then why do the homophobic players use politically-loaded terms like gay? As if that's not political in itself. If they wanted to avoid politics, they would avoid using that word in a demeaning way.

Re:I've said it before, I'll say it again.

Nobody in an MMORPG really, honestly cares wether or not you like to stick your dick in another man's ass at night when the lights are out.

If you don't care, then why are you so offended by it?

Re:This story is so gay

In all seriousness, I don't want to deal with homosexuality in an online game. /ignore users that say things you don't want to hear and please don't try to force your gay agenda on the rest of us.

You do realise that this argument works just as much against you, don't you? You too can ignore users that say things you don't want to hear, without having to force an anti-gay agenda on anyone.

Re:Gotta be said...

...she's a stone fox. Yeah, I know she's transsexual. Still hot.

It's only a problem if you were hoping to have kids.