More Oblivion Re-Rating Fallout

The ESRB has a retort to the criticism leveled against it after rating Elder Scrolls IV: Oblivion Mature. The move has required Bethesda Softworks to pull all of the current stock of the game to relabel. From the GameDailyBiz article: "When we brought the topless female images to Bethesda Softworks' attention, they confirmed that the art file existed in a fully rendered form in the code on the game disc. The ESRB's investigation found that the mod allowed users to change the filename for the female character mesh in order to access the art file that was created by Bethesda. While true that a modification was required to access this file, the changes we implemented last year - expanding our disclosure rules to include locked-out content - were made to prevent these kinds of situations" Via Cathode Tan, who has his own commentary, an opinion piece by John Romero has yet another view of the complicated situation.

movies v. videogames

Small amounts of nudity are allowed in PG13 movies. However, if you have the same sort of nudity rendered in a videogame, it gets rated M. I'm not entirely clear why the Teen rating doesn't cover this for games...

Re:movies v. videogames

not even that there WAS no nudity in the game. Much like GTA you had to HACK the game to get the nudity in.

sure the skins where there, but they wherent accessable IN game.

ITs the same thing with comics and movie though back in the day, its the new political fallboy, give it 5-10 more years and it will be something else.

Re:movies v. videogames

I think much of the confusion from those unfamiliar with the inner workings of the industry is due to the way many games (and I'm assuming Oblivion as one) does character modeling. You can take a basic character model and layer different layers of clothing on top, it would be relatively easy for someone to slightly modify a texture, put it on an existing model, and call it a topless female. Sure, the model was already there, but it wasn't because they were putting nude females in. It was just there because it was easier to take that model and put different types of clothing models on that it was to make different models for each and every character in the game with a different shirt.

Pointing to that as an example of ill intent by Bethseda is just flat-out irresponsible by those who are arguably supposed to be industry insiders.

Re:Decent underwear

As mentioned many other times already, the mod involves pasting a barechested male texture over the female body size.

Trust me, there is nothing male about textures\characters\imperial\female\upperbodyfemal e.dds which is what the nude mesh uses natively, with no modifications at all. The nude mesh simply has to be extracted from the .bsa file the game came with and renamed to replace the non-nude mesh. I am seeing that quite a few people posting to this topic have very different ideas about how this mod is done, so I'll lay it down for you:

There is a third-party program called tes4bsa. Its whole job is to unpack the game's art and sound files from the proprietary archive format they are in. That's all it does, it makes no changes to any of the content at all. It is an essential tool for making your own unique copies of objects for a mod you want to do, as you have to be able to browse to the nif file when making a new object. With Morrowind they gave you all the art files unpacked on the second CD. So this tes4bsa merely enables the tradtional means of modding this game, so that it is available again as we modders were used to with MW.

1. Download tes4bsa, and put it in the Data folder.

2. Run it to unpack the textures archive.

3. Navigate to Data\meshes\characters\_male (yes, it doesn't sound like there's females in here, but there are, don't ask me why)

4. Delete femaleupperbody.nif and rename femaleupperbodynude.nif to drop the word nude.

5. Play the game, find a dead woman (or, um, stalk and kill one) and loot her clothes. See?

Note that no textures were modified, or superimposed on anything, or even touched. No hacking out of mesh coordinates to remove the perma-bra that the default female characters actually use in-game. Just unpack the art files, delete one file and rename another. This content is not the result of any user input whatsoever.

I wonder if there is a connection: Just as many of us don't RTFA, we also seem to have a propensity for not TTFE (trying the fabulous experiment) before talking about it like we know what's happening. This is not a flame on anyone, just an observation.

Re:movies v. videogames

Not to be pedantic, (not intentionally), but reason standards aren't obviously consistent is because the ESRB is not the MPAA.

They're not the same organization, not controlled by the same people, not rating the same media, nothin'. They don't necessarily have the same leadership or employees.

To consumers, I'm sure, media is media is media, and consistent standards and enforcement should be obvious. But consistent standards and enforcement is not required and in the minds of some might be anti-competetive.

You expect consistency where there is no reason (other than in your expectations) for there to be any. The only place to enforce that "media-is-media" ratings consistency is government, and that's the LAST thing any sane consumer or producer wants.

Breasts must be kept secret!

So much worry over kids seeing anatomy possessed by half of the population. It's about time we got over this puritanical BS.

Face it, any kid with access to the Internet will find a way to view naked women, if he/she so desires. Kids are smart. They have friends with printers. The secret is out, women and girls have different parts than boys do.

If you want to make sure your kids grow up to be well-adjusted, talk to them and explain things. Make sure they have plenty of parental attention and affection. Tell them they can always come to you and talk about things. Don't let kids learn all about sex from their peers.

Oh, and teach them that there are more important matters for people to worry about than whether or not electronic models have breasts.

Cruel!

Do you have any idea how cruel it is to include the word "Fallout" in the story title of an article in the Games section?

Zonk, expect rabid RPG fans after you for raising their hopes, albeit by accident!

Unbelievable!

This is as if Snow White gets an R rating because someone splices in a few frames from a porn movie into one reel...

Re:Changing the rating

In America? Naked women. A boob is a thousand times worse than seeing a human being gutted, ripped in half and having both chunks set on fire. Make sense? Not really, but that's the way this country works.

Re:Changing the rating

The worst form of evil is an erection caused by the sight of a nipple on a breast. This is far more evil, for instance, than an erection caused by seeing human beings ripped in half, and having both chunks set on fire.

Complicated Situation?

TV commercials around here at least after 10pm have been featuring a lot more sultry "friend finder" commercials on broadcast TV, and lightly censored 'girls gone wild' commercials on basic cable.

Far more offensive than pixellated boobies. Hell, the kids are likely on the internet in the first place to find out about the hack. If kids aren't already corrupted by all of the boobies [and worse!] on the internet, some scantly clad model isn't going to harm them.

Does anyone know the background?

I can't believe they intentionally put in a topless model. What I expect is this: The model was intended to be rendered together with a separate model covering the top, like additional pieces of armour that they want to run physics on, or a bra that they want to have changeable. By swapping the model with another one that doesn't have these additional features you see the base model. Sorry, but to emphasise it: We (=game developers) can't take responsibility for data files we didn't create, or for modifications to the game code that change object behaviour. So what about this disclaimer: Game Experience may change when using 3rd party modifications ? I mean, there is already the disclaimer Game Experience may change during online play, because nobody can control what other players in an online game say or do.

This is getting crazy

The next thing you know they will want to change any game where you can install custom skins to an 'M' rating simply because someone can download a custom model and have naked women everywhere. What I love throughout all this is that it isn't about violence (despite what the ESRB said) and solely about some "sexually explicit" content that by default is not accessible in the game. I guess I never realized how horribly ugly the female human form is...

While not necessarily right (and maybe not on point), it is absurd to think that the difference between 'T' and 'M' is going to make a difference in who buys these games. Now, the kids (I actually do not know any kids who play ES IV) just have to get their parents, who have shown total disregard for what their children are doing (see complaints about movie, television and game ratings...and the recent "myspace scare"), will blatantly ignore the ratings and purchase it anyway.

I would love to see some game makers stop using the ESRB all-together. Like the MPAA movie rating system, it is completely voluntary and even if a few places won't carry an un-rated game, I am sure plenty of legitimate video game retailers will be more then glad to sell such a game. Unfortunately, this probably will not happen because I would imagine that some of the larger retailers would be the ones refusing.

So...

If I create a patch that makes Minnie Mouse and Daisy Duck naked in a Disney game, will the ESRB re-label that game as "M" and force Disney to pull it off the shelves?
ESRB are morons.

The question everyone is asking is...

If I use Photoshop to give our our president a giant bare of woho's will they slap GW Bush with a mature rating?

Oh no

Naked human beings in non-sexual settings in a video game.

Oh no. The end of our civilization is near.

And it won't be because of topless toons in some video game.

Teen: Let's Beat it To Death While We're At It

This topic is getting a bit tired, but the fact that this "retort" misses the greater issue is compelling.

1) Play Oblivion for 1 hour, you'll find zombies with their guts hanging out. The player is rewarded for bashing them MANY MANY times as they spray blood all over the walls. I don't see how Bethesda could have "hid" this from the ratings board - it shows up within minutes of play.

2) Talk to the various characters in the first town in the game, and you'll find out there's a "secret" guild that will let you in if you MURDER someone. In fact, you are very often rewarded for criminal activity in Oblivion. Going to jail is REQUIRED to complete at least one of the quests in the game (probably more, I don't know).

3) A nipple shows up in a downloadable mod, and OMG! change the rating to "Mature".

This isn't about Oblivion being rated "M", it's about the reason provided for the change. "More gore than initially disclosed" is ridiculous, because the game is chock full of gore and it's central to the gameplay itself. When the ESRB initially reviewed the game, did they even play it? My take is that Oblivion probably should've been rated "M" from the start. The game contains mature subject matter and it was no secret, plain and simple.

Are American Teens exposed to graphic violence through other means? Yes, certainly.

Are young children? I am reading the classic book, Farmer Boy, of the famed Little House on the Prarie series to my Kindergartner. In this book, the "older boys" in the school house gain reputation for "thrashing" teachers into submission with their fists. The replacement teacher is heralded for subdueing his attackers with a whip.

Does that make it a "good thing"(TM)? Nope. (see also: "Shikata ga nai")

Can a Teen process violence in entertainment and separate such depictions from the morality requisite to be a good citizen? Yes. "Mortal Combat" was a popular morality target in my teenage years, yet I never attempted a "Finishing Move" on any of my schoolmates, and I've grown up to be a good citizen by most accounts.

Can responsible, involved parents allow their brood to slash video game foes for fun? Yes. I enjoy such entertainment, and I'm sure my young'uns will too. Human beings are violent (see also: "history of civilization"). It'll be my decision to make concerning their maturity approaching such subject matter.

If my teen sees a booby, will all my hard parenting work unravel? God, I hope not. That would surely mean I'd done a terrible job educating my own on the birds and the bees. Believe it or not, I'd rather my kids look at boobies than bash skulls. Interest in sex is not unnatural (see also: "World Population").

ESRB claims the change is due to a lack of disclosure. Under normal circumstances, that would be an acceptable reason in my mind. However, the gratuitous and obvious violence in Oblivion calls into question the criteria by which the game was rated IN THE FIRST PLACE. The ESRB lacks credibility, and this debacle won't help that issue, that is certain.

Astounding

pull all of the current stock of the game to relabel

Congratulations. Short of airdropping copies of the game over each major american city, there is no other possible action that would ensure people previously fence-sitting on the original version of the game will go through considerable effort to obtain a "real" copy.

HYPOCRACY

You can hack and slash defenseless citizens, steal your way to financial independance, and support demon-like creatures to enslave mankind.

Seeing a pair of tits seems a bit trivial, yes?

To the hypocrites at the ESRB who seem to think violence is fine and nudity is a crime... rethink your policies, and rethink your hidden agendas. Nudity is not sex, which could be misconstrued as a mature theme. Every female on the planet has a vagina and breasts. Every male has a penis. These are anatomical features. Science. Fact. They are not the subversive agendas being pushed by conservatives to have us back in the social dark ages.

I am a player of Oblivion and I don't think for a second that any of the fantasy provided by this game is not enough for a 13 year old to grasp. By rating it mature, we're taking a modification to a game and making a big mountain out of a mole hill.

Let's boil this down, folks. I'd be much more worried about my 12 year old kid murding all the townfolk, supporting the daedric lords, playing out their virtual life as a vampric character. Not that there is anything wrong with the fantasy of any of those, but I'd want to make sure they understood the difference.

mmmm Children.

"Today we stike a blow against those who would allow our children to expose themselves to pornography. By requiring labotomys for all children at the age of 2, we can finally prevent them from being victims of the exploitation industry known as Media, not only will this step prevent them from being able to access pornography via brain implants or on the Internet, it will prevent them from content that describes nudity or violence, or comprehending adult language. While the previous eyeball removing and castration programs proved insufficent, we believe this is the ultimate solution to the problem of child exploitation."

"Children, we are not doing this 'to' you, we are doing it 'for' you."

I need the US Gov't to raise my kids!

Best quote from TFA: "the current rating system is drastically flawed and here is yet another reason why we need legislation to assist parents and protect children" [California Assemblyman Leland Yee].

That is exactly what I need for my kids, the US Gov't writing some helpful laws to this end. Perhaps they could help by also removing those extremely violent newscasts on the cable and network news outlets. The newspapers too. They are FILLED with reports of violence and war that are to the detriment of my children. Can you believe the SCHOOL in my hometown also teaches children about sometimes very gruesome and unsettling violence in history class, and I need laws to stop this from harming them. I can't do it all!

A good law to draft would be to transport all of my children to some sort of government educational facility, where they can learn to serve their country by putting down the violent people of the world through judicious use of lethal force. In this Utopian society, there would be no sex, because it is "dirty" and "very bad", and the law would provide men in jack boots to catch the teens "in the backseat trying to pick her locks", and they could "send them back to mother in a cardboard box".

I need help with the music out there these days too. Everyone knows the only good use for so-called "Heavy Metal" music is in psychological warfare.

As for games, we need wholesome, morality-based games. America's Army could teach my kids about responsible engagement, for instance. In that game, everyone plays as Americans! They only shoot "terrorist-looking" people, the way it should be.

And offensive movies should be re-cut. Take the terrific job done on "Brazil" (the love endures all ending). That movie was a real downer before some fine studio exec had it corrected.

Why is nudity considered mature?

Seriously, small children not only see breasts every day, they often SUCK on them! What exactly are we protecting children from by censoring nudity (breasts in this case)? Now, censoring gratuitous sex I can almost understand, but simple nudity? Come on.

-matthew

Going to happen more in the future

One of the extras on the Shrek DVD has someone talking about how they did it for that movie, because it made the movement of clothing over the characters' bodies as they moved more realistic. So somewhere in the depths of Dreamworks's render farm, there's a nude Princess Fiona mesh. (And a nude Shrek, and Farquaad, but only go there if that's what floats your boat...)

It's only a matter of time before most 3D models use the same technique, because the technology is there and it does make things look better. So what's a developer to do? The nude character mesh has to be stored somewhere in order to get the clothing overlaid onto it.

If it were up to me, I'd slap little pasties on the female nipples reading "THANX ESRB". Heck, put 'em on the male nipples too, just to be Fair'n'Balanced.

The real solution is for America to get over itself. A teenager will see more pokey nipples in the clothing stores flanking Gameslop in the mall, and with a lot less effort, than in half a dozen videogames. (When the heck did mannequins all get pokey nipples, by the way? I stopped going to malls for the last few years of my first marriage, and when I started up again a couple of years ago, all the female mannequins had been molded in very cold rooms, if you know what I mean...)

Personally,

I need horrific violence _and_ exposed nipples to really jerk off properly. .. ..

Help me?