Nintendo Shares Up, But Do Devs 'Get' the Wii?

kukyfrope writes "Nintendo shares have jumped over six percent since the Wii's unveiling at E3 last week." Despite both Peter Moore and Phil Harrison recommending you should get a Wii, the future of Nintendo and the Wii aren't assured. Next Generation reports that third party developers may not really 'get' the ambitious console.

Good Point

I saw this earlier and he has a good point. There haven't been many games announced for the Wii by 3rd parties. Red Steel, Madden, Super Monkey Ball, and Sponebob are all I can think of off the top of my head. There will be more, but not at launch (we're not even sure about the above).

Nintendo will have a ton of great games (good for them, they usually have a few, things are looking great here) but while EA made out like a bandit on the 360 launch (Madden, Fight Night, Burnout, whatever) there is just Nintendo here.

Of course, if they could get Super Smash Brothers out at launch (instead of a few months later as I think they said) then they could really cream the competition.

A $200 system (just a guess) with a new Mario, Super Smash Brothers, Zelda, Metroid, Wario Ware, and a few other titles at launch. What gamer could possibly resist that?

Re:Good Point

EA is also working on ports of its sports games. They are porting to the new controller as well, its been mentioned that in Madden passing will use the remote as a pointer and a tossing motion for the throw. It might make that the first Madden game I've bought in years.

Re:Good Point

What games could possibly resist that?

The ones who are too mature, and need violence/sex all the time, that's who...

Re:Good Point

There haven't been many games announced for the Wii by 3rd parties. Red Steel, Madden, Super Monkey Ball, and Sponebob are all I can think of off the top of my head. There will be more, but not at launch (we're not even sure about the above). The top off your head isn't the best place to decidie things like that. This is the official upcoming games list announaced at E3 As you can see they have a lot of support. 77 games announced before launch is amazing compared to the gamecube. (FYI: These aren't launch titles but are the first announced - they plan to have 20 titles at launch.) Disclaimer from the Nintendo press site - someone was kind enough to post their login details on a forum I use. These are copied and pasted from a pdf - hence the formatting problems - I'll bold the developers but I cant be bothered to arrange them:

Tony Hawk's Downhill JamTM MarvelTM: Ultimate Alliance Activision Call of Duty® 3 AQ Interactive Boxing Action

Atari Dragon Ball Z Budokai: Tenkaichi 2

Atlus Trauma Center: Second Opinion

BANPRESTO Family Action Game Disney's Chicken Little: Ace in Action

Buena Vista Games Disney's Meet the Robinsons

Capcom Resident Evil series SIMPLE series

D3Publisher Original Action Game

Eidos Title TBD Madden NFL '07

Electronic Arts Medal of Honor Airborne

EPOCH Title TBD From Software Action Game Genki Title TBD BOMBERMAN LAND

HUDSON SOFT Flight Game

JALECO Title TBD KOEI Sengoku Action Elebits

Konami Digital Entertainment Soccer Game Majesco Bust-A-Move Revolution BOKUJO MONOGATARI Heroes KAWA NO NUSHITSURI Marvelous Interactive Original Simulation Mastiff Mr. D. Goes to Town (working title) The Ant Bully

Midway Games Happy Feet New Vertical Scroll Shooting Game

MILESTONE New Action Game Character Action Game MTO SAN-X All-star Revolution FINAL FURLONG Mobile Suit GUNDAM SD GUNDAM G BREAKER DIGIMON ONE PIECE UNLIMITED ADVENTURE New Action Game New RPG TAMAGOTCHI

NAMCO BANDAI Games Title TBD

Natsume (developed by Marvelous) Harvest Moon Disaster: Day of CrisisTM Excite TruckTM Fire EmblemTM Metroid® Prime 3: Corruption Project H.A.M.M.E.R. TM Super Mario® Galaxy The Legend of Zelda®: Twilight Princess WarioWareTM: Smooth Moves

Nintendo Wii Sports Super Monkey Ball Banana Blitz

SEGA SONIC WILD FIRE

SNK Metal Slug Anthology Necro-Nesia Spike Jawa CODENAME: FINAL FANTASY® CRYSTAL CHRONICLES: Crystal BearersTM

SQUARE ENIX DRAGON QUEST SWORDSTM: The Masked Queen and the Tower of MirrorsTM Turn IT around!! Let's go by train!

TAITO Cooking Mama -Cooking with International Friends-

TECMO Super Swing Golf PANGYA The Game Factory Title TBD Avatar: The Last Airbender SpongeBob SquarePants: Creature from the Krusty Krab THQ Disney/Pixar Cars Action Game

TOMY Battle Action Open Season Rayman Raving Rabbids Ubisoft RED STEEL Vivendi Universal Games Title TBD

Warner Bros. Interactive Entertainment Title TBD

They Will, Eventually

Remember, when the DS first came out not that many third parties "got" the DS either, but now they do, and we're seeing tons of titles coming out for it. Developers will figure Wii out, and since it's such an innovative platform, developers will WANT to develop for it. I can see Wii having much better third party support than the GameCube did, even though it was generally easy for a quick "port" to the cube. We won't see those cheap ports on the Wii, but we'll see some actual games developed specifically with the Wii in mind. Sure, we'll see some gimmicky crap too, but "90% of everything is crap".

Nintendo DS

Wasn't this the same issue with the DS when it first launched?

If I recall (I'm too lazy to look anything up and I'm about to leave work), the DS had limited (if any) 3rd party support at launch. Everyone claimed the device was gimicky and no one would use it. It took a while before we saw games that took real advantage of the hardware.

I believe this is the case with the Wii as well. The first year of the device will see a lot of 1st party support with interesting games, but the 3rd party developers will use that time to figure out what the hell to do with it. Don't get me wrong, I fully intend on picking one up on or near launch (which I've never done for anything). However, I fully expect to only have a few titles that really make use of the new control scheme.

It took them a while to "get" the DS.

It took quite a few months before games that really took advantage of the DS's capabilities (the two screens as well as the touch capabilities) came out, but now the market is full of them, and the PSP is largely being ignored. It might take a while for developers to appreciate what the Wii can do, but hopefully they will make the most of it when they understand its potential.

The problem is vastly different capabilities

The big problem is that game developers like to develop a game for all the consoles in a given generation. The hardware capabilities between the PS2, Xbox, and GameCube were different, but in the same ballpark.

Now I'm not a graphics guru and could be wrong, but to my understanding, this greatly eases the art pipeline-- for example textures and polygon counts could be the same size.

The problem with the Wii is that it is not in the same class as the Xbox360 and PS3.

Many people don't realize that for a given game, as much as 3/4 of the manpower goes into art and *not* code. Most developers leverage existing game engines. A friend of mine is on a project where they have ~ 40 artists and ~ 10 coders.

Re:The problem is vastly different capabilities

You could just as easily argue that this is an advantage of the Wii -- games can be made by smaller teams on tighter budgets. That's one of the reasons Nintendo's handhelds enjoy such strong third-party support: it isn't a huge investment to develop a game for the GBA or DS, at least compared to the home consoles.

So if Wii is cheaper to develop for and has innovative features which get people excited about gaming again, it may mean that developers will be more amenable to the idea of developing for it. After all, nobody seems to mind that the DS doesn't have the same horsepower that the PSP does -- if they likewise don't care that the Wii doesn't have the same horsepower as its competitors, then developing for it is going to look very attractive.

Speaking only for myself, I don't really give a rat's ass that the Wii isn't as powerful as the competition. Sure, high-def support would have been nice, but saving $350 by getting a Wii instead of a PS3 is damned nice too. And as a jaded adult with a wife and kid who has very little time for gaming anymore, it's been really hard to get excited about games lately. Sure, I bought a GameCube and a PS2 and (eventually) an XBox, but I don't remember being really excited about any of them. The Wii, on the other hand, has me positively giddy with anticipation. I'll get a PS3 and an XBox360 after a few price drops when I have nothing better to do with my time and money. I'll get a Wii at midnight on launch day.

Re:The problem is vastly different capabilities

Want to know a Secret?

The Wii really isn't much less powerful then either the PS3 or the XBox 360, and in some ways (single thread performance) is more powerful. What the Wii's weakness is, is that the Wii contains a fixed pipeline on it's GPU; for those people that don't know what this means, the Wii does not support Programable Pixel/Vertex shaders.

If you look at the Red-Steel screens you'll see what I'm talking about; the geometry in the image will be as high as anything on the PS3/XBox 360, the Textures are as high resolution as anything on the PS3/XBox 360 and the Particle effects are as nice as anything on the PS3/XBox 360. When you compare screens you'll notice what is lacking is Normal Maps, and Material effects. Nintendo didn't include shader support because it costs a lot of money to produce Normal Maps and BRDFs (or other material functions).

Games will not be hard to port to the Wii, but they will never look as good as they do on the XBox 360 or PS3.

Re:The problem is vastly different capabilities

"the geometry in the image will be as high as anything on the PS3/XBox 360, the Textures are as high resolution as anything on the PS3/XBox 360 and the Particle effects are as nice as anything on the PS3/XBox 360"

This is, at best, wishful thinking. The Wii has very little in the way of texture memory - if they do what they did to the rest of the system, about a meg and a half, but let's assume it's really 10mb. The 360 has 512mb of shared RAM - presumably, more than 64mb of this could be dedicated to textures. The CPU is running at 729mhz last I checked, which is 1/3 of _one_ of the 360's cores - good luck trying to generate the same geometry. Even if you could, the comparatively low resolution (480p) is going to make it look like a jaggy mess - and there's not exactly much power to spare for fancy AA.

There is some serious delusion on the part of some Nintendo fans on how well this system is really going to be able to compete in the graphics department. I personally don't think it matters - Nintendo has obviously staked the system on the controller and Virtual Console, not the graphics. Whether that's a mistake or not, we shall see...

-Erwos

Re:The problem is vastly different capabilities

There are several things wrong with your post:

1. Texture memory - Yes, the Revolution has less memory overall, (estimates about final numbers are between 96-128MB. HOWEVER (!) this memory is all 1T SRAM, i.e. it's really fucking fast, and the system is using a UMA, plus each of the individual components have reasonably big on-die caches, so the Revolution has a very decent, SPEEDY (Faster than DDR2, and RAMBUS), memory sub-system.

2. Information indicates that the revolution's main CPU is a faster clocked version of the chip in the Gamecube, which is a slightly customized POWERPC G3 chip. On the other hand, the cores of the Cell, and the Xbox 360 are known to be the same design and are in many ways extremely cut down, to such an extent they they are less capable than the initial 1993 PowerPC cores. The Revolution's G3 has a MUCH higher IPC than the CPUs in the competition. As a result a more accurate comparison would be to say that it probably around 1/2 as powerful as one such core.

3. Given the Gamecube GPU's proven graphical prowess, and that it is known that the Revolution's GPU is a faster version of that chip, YES, there will be power to spare on AA, especially at 480p. Also, you seem to be confused, Jaggies get worse as you INCREASE resolution. So all things being equal, at 720p a scene will look more jaggy than at 480p.

That lower resolution also means that requirements are lower across the board. One can simply look at GC titles like "Resident Evil 4" and the release screen for Twilight Princess, plus the knowledge that the Revolution has headroom to improve on that, and rest confidently that the revolution will look just fine

Re:The problem is vastly different capabilities

There is some serious delusion on the part of some Nintendo fans on how well this system is really going to be able to compete in the graphics department.

There is some serious delusion on behalf of the PS3/Xbox360 fans in that graphics are the game.

Go back to sleep, Zonk

No, Zonk, of course developers aren't interested in the Wii. After all, why would they be? Nothing could ever stand up to the developer heaven that is your precious XBox 360. The author of the blog you link is right, even though he's apparently never heard of EA [google.com] or Activision [google.com].

The massive outpouring of launch exclusive support by EA, Ubisoft and Sega unlike anything we saw directed at Nintendo at any point during the Gamecube era is just a coincidence. And not such a big deal either. After all, as the article puts it, nobody's getting involved in the near term except Sega and Ubisoft (merely two of the biggest game publishers in the world), and it isn't like any important names are getting involved (like, y'know, EA or anything), so what good will it be? Spongebob Squarepants Spongebob Squarepants Spongebob Squarepants.

Go back to sleep so the rest of us can look forward to Red Steel and Super Monkey Ball in peace.

Yeah right

Tell me if I'm wrong, but this Pachter guy sounds like he doesn't know what he's talking about.

"no publishers would be able to take advantage of the installed base because they haven't fully committed to the early life of the platform"

How does that make any sense? Even if this were true, I believe there were 25 Wii games shown at E3? I'm pretty sure not all of those games are being published by a small number of publishers. Nintendo seems to have plenty of 3rd party backing for Wii.

Do devs get the Wii?

Only if they are lady devs. otherwise, they give the wii.

Sorry, I thought I had that out of my system already ;-)

Lack of Developer Support?

Say what?

There are lots of games [1up.com] coming out for the Wii.

And just because big third parties aren't frothing at the mouth doesn't mean anything. I'm FAR more interested in titles like Sadness. These less-known developers are going to take risks that you won't see any big third party developer take.

Ask the right question.

What are Nintendo doing to get the devs? Part of the reason they've historically had poor 3rd-party support is because they make it _hard_ for outsiders to get in.

Smash Brothers

The delay for Smash Bros. may be intentional. This was a 'must have' game for the Cube but as mentioned previously does not really take advantage of the Wii's unique features. Perhaps Nintendo thought it best to launch games that highlight the controller first before bringing in the tried and true favourites.

That's why I'm getting a PS3 too

I'll definitely buy the Wii as soon as it's launched because of the Nintendo exclusives and the backward compatibility. I still regret missing the chance of having a Nintendo 64 back when it was relevant and won't miss it again.

For third party games I'm considering the PlayStation 3 for two reasons: the Sony exclusives and the possibility of running Linux on a relatively cheap Cell implementation.

Nintendogs Wii should be good....

You can use the motion activated controller, and toss it for your nintendog to go and fetch. Of course... you will have to fetch the actual device yourself, but it will help you shed a few pounds.

The fact is...

The fact is, if enough consumers "get it," then you can bet that the developers will "get it."

You do know those demos werent running on wiis

I wouldnt compare graphics right now. There are pictures floating around that showed that the demo stations were actually modified gamecubes and not the wii console it self. You cant compare graphics right now because they havent showed anything using the final console yet.

It will take time to gain momentum

Regardless of how great the Wii turns out to be, Nintendo is going to need some time to overcome the less then impressive image they have gained from the N64 and Gamecube. Part of it is that not many companies are going to be eager to bet on the guy who came in 3rd place in a 3 way race. Gamecube did better in Japan then the X-Box though, and that is why your seeing alot more Japanese publishers giving it a shot.

Aside from that issue, another more insidious problem is that people tend to hold grudges, and Nintendo has alienated many developers over the years. It took most of 2 console cycles for Square to do anything with Nintendo after Yamauchi said that Squares RPG games suck. And Nintendo also managed to drive away Silicon Knights shortly after the Metal gear port was done. There are many more companies that just dont much care for having to work for Nintendo.

The last issue is that even once the console starts to take off, most 3rd party games (except probably for those done by Sega) are just not going to feel as good to play as most of the Nintendo titles will. While the SDK is cheap, its going to take a while for the designers to get their head around the sort of things that are possible. WarioWare: Smooth Moves will be the best demo title for the sort of things someone can try with this console, and Metroid will point the way for FPS games. But beyond that, its going to take a while before 3rd parties come up with the sort of Original titles that will truly sell the system.

Its like playing a Texas Hold-em poker game, and your starting hand is 7 Jack, when your opponents have pocket aces and pocket kings. You will win once the flop comes down as 7, Jack, Jack, but its going to be a while before everyone else at the table watching the game realizes it.

END COMMUNICATION

Spinning a way out of E3

Whenever I hear both Microsoft and Sony advising consumers to buy a Wii as a second console, I hardly see that as an endorsement. Instead, I can see fear in their eyes. Fear that consumers are going to buy a Wii first.
The huge splash Nintendo made at E3 has spin masters frantically running for cover. They're trying to downplay the Wii as good enough only as a secondary console. But even they feel the former Revolution is going to be a coup.

As for third-party developers, I'm planning to buy a Wii on launch day and at least 4 games (Metroid, Mario, Zelda and Red Steel, maybe Wii Sports). That's enough quality gaming right here to prevent me from actually seeing the light of day for the next few months, and I'm not even counting the countless classics on the Virtual Console.

The Wii is not suffering from a lack of titles. Actually, it already has too many strong launch titles to even let me try an unknown third-party game. Out of my 4/5 launch titles, only one is from a third party. The publishers that missed the boat have only themselves to blame.

$200 price point announced

The Wii Talk [thewiitalk.com] is posting a Miyamoto interview that hints at a $200 price at launch to be announced in September at the Tokyo Games Show.

That's quite alright...

...because new developers that DO will take their place, and do quite nicely to boot.

The control method makes all the difference.

PS3 and XBOX 360 games are the same as the previous generation with updated graphics (and not far better than a PC anyway). But Nintendo's Wii games will be an experience totally different, thanks to its controller. I can't wait to play my favorite sports games with it! :-)

This guy has no idea

"Wedbush Morgan analyst Michael Pachter..."

Just bear in mind he's a stock analyst. You know they're *never* wrong.

Who will be the first big new dev?

One thing I think folks are overlooking is that each leap in console tech brings one or two new developers to the front.

Does the Wii have the potential to propel someone new, who "gets" the Wii remote control, to the forefront?

Only time will tell.

But, I like the bold, eveocative nature of the Wii controller. It speaks well of Nintendo to be thinking of things other than polygons and shaders.

3rd parties that don't get it...

... will end up as first against the wall when the Revolution comes!

No really, isn't this true of any studio? If all your investment in the R&D for titles on a new platform falls through on a lame title, you're dead, right?

Somebody Will Get It

Well, I think EA is a publisher that also "gets" the Wii. They are making that Madden game for launch, and I have to believe that they have a baseball game in the pipeline. It is something that lends itself to a baseball game, IMO.

Konami will likely do well with Elebits, also.

I think, however, there are a lot of games in the pipeline that we know nothing about that could be very good---the Crystal Chronicles game, the Dragon Quest game, the new Wii version of Trauma Center, Sengoku Action (presumably a Dynasty Warriors type game), the unnamed flight game from Hudson, Rayman Raving Rabbids, Call of Duty 3, et al.

But if in fact none of the games by third-party publishers are very good nor plentiful and the Wii sells very well (which it probably will), I think that it is possible that smaller companies with good ideas could fill the gap thanks to the fact that the Wii is way more small-game-company friendly than the others, not just due to the fact that the dev kit is cheaper and it will require less graphic fidelity, but also thanks to the fact that a new control scheme means that a company really has the opportunity to hit big if they find a new, inventive use for the controller.

Re:Sure

Nintendo and Apple are the same company. They consistently build better products and consistently build a better business while the nasal voices of criticism for the sake of criticism keep trying to shout them down.

meanwhile their fanboys flock to slashdot and post tired comments.

Yes I got a question.

Do you know what FUD means?

I see it a lot nowadays mostly as an indicator someone doesn't agree with something. That doesn't mean it is FUD. Anymore then someone having a different opinion is a troll or someone having an argument is flaming.

Nintendo consistently builds better products? WHAAAAHAAA. Yeah right. That is why Sony took them for a ride with the PS1. Sorry but no. Nintendo screwed up badly in the past and had to pay the price. But then you mention apple. So I get my own word that lost all meaning to rebutt your fud.

FANBOY.

Re:Drooling fanboyism

HOTD4 is a standard lightgun game.

Shake the controller, and you'll hear a rattle. That's where the shake off part comes from.