Quantum Leaps in RPGs

Gamasutra has up an article, giving out 'awards' to titles that made a genre what it is. Today, they have memorable and impactful role-playing games; a top five with five honorable mentions. They're all very worthy titles, but I'm not sure about their placement on the list. None of the Ultima games make the top 5? Really? From the article: "Ultima V - The Ultima series allowed the player a level of freedom found only in a few games today. Through the origins of the series, the game had fits and starts where some ideas worked and others did not. By V, however, the central core of the game was completely worked out and many games today are 3D versions of this ground breaking title: Elder Scrolls comes to mind. Though other games at the time were similar, Bard's Tale for example, they did not have the scope of story and adventure, nor did they encompass so many technologies of the time. -James Edwards, Microsoft"

Oh Boy!!!!

I can't wait to grid with Sam so I can finally get to lvl 60 and leap into Lee Harvey Oswald!

Quantum Leaps

And I hope the next leap... is the leap home...

Oh boy...

Ziggy says there's a 93% chance you have to slay thusands of random orcs then rescue the beautiful dragon from the evil princess before you can leap out of here.

Radiata Stories

Not the best game of all time (though it was lots of fun), but I've never played a game that literally gave every single character in the game - even the ones that you would never ordinarily talk to - a real life. Play it and follow some people around for 24 "hours". Amazing.

weapons?

I was expecting information about a quantum leap in Rocket Propelled Grenade technology.

This article doesn't even list RPGs

Final Fantasy or Chrono Trigger are RPGs? It's more like a book with press X to continue. I like those games but I would classify them as jRPGs (which means they are not RPGs at all). And Oblivion being on this list is just atrocious, not only it is step backwards from Morrowind in many aspects but it is also unplayable at this moment because of tons of bugs. I think we should wait a year or two until Bethseda patches Oblivion so that it doesn't make me start the game fifth time because I did something in wrong order (yeah, I really had game screw up 4 times already).

Re:This article doesn't even list RPGs

"Final Fantasy or Chrono Trigger are RPGs? It's more like a book with press X to continue. I like those games but I would classify them as jRPGs (which means they are not RPGs at all)."

Your so right! They should list real rpgs like World Of Warcraft.

Ranking games like this is pointless

Why is it that every time we talk about the influence of groundbreaking games (and films too, I suppose), more often than not they're shoehorned into some sort of subjective pecking order?

You'll never see "Top 10 Paintings of the Rennaisance", but that hasn't kept art critics and historians from debating their merits and influence through the years.

Every game on that list, and quite a few others, deserves to be there. But why waste time quibbling about rank? When you make lists like this, people are bound to concentrate more on a game's place rather than the content of the criticism or praise. These games stand on their own as great works, or they wouldn't be there at all.

It all reminds me of those silly GameFAQ's character battles.

And, for my money, Daggerfall and Morrowind deserve to be on there every bit as much as Oblivion. Not to mention NetHack and Diablo.

Half-life??

For some reason the second last page has a wrong link. The 1st place really goes to Fallout [gamasutra.com] and not Half-Life.

I can only agree on the Choices

Starting with place #5 Chrono Trigger:
It was definitly one of the most entertaining while also groundbreaking games of its time - the time-battle system, the combination of techniques for the battles, dozends of possible endings, countless sidequests and the ability to avoid battles (having to take on the 415th Generic Enemy you wipe away easily is a major turn-off). Shame with Chrono Cross though (it still was a great game, if only the story-makers had not decided to "hey let's kill off everything CT players hold dear and piss on their graves")
For #4
System Shock 2 and Deus Ex. Both game stand synonymous for a new Genre - true first person action role playing games - not FPSs that got added an "roleplaying" system as if as an afterthought, but both sides - action and roleplaying - made as one, from one yarn. The multiple solution & multiple ending ability in Deus Ex gives it a slight advantage over SS2, but I would have been happy to see either on this spot.
For #3
Oblivion - is it the new quantum leap or just a propagation from the old. Perhaps a bit of both. I had some qualms regarding the difficulty of the game (scaling the power of enemies according to your level is nice, but please make sure their power niveau fits the setting - a level 1 character that gets beaten up by City Guards, but that can become champion of the arena - and thus best fighter in the world - just because the arena opponents are also pitiful weak hurts both the sense of accomplishment and suspension of disbelieve), but still the direction is the right one - RPGs become even more open-ended and lifelike, and Oblivion is pointing that direction.
#2 Planescape Torment
What can I say. A perfect story, told in a perfect way. Be who and what you want - literally; waking up without memories gives you that freedom. Truely one of the best RPG ever made. #1 Fallout
Words fail me. Fallout has it all (though PS:T still wins in the story department).

FF7 ftw

And the ~***GRAND PRIZE***~ goes to....

Final Fantasy 7 ::Reasons::
1-The charactors are more recognised than anyone else... better known than even Mario, or Yoshi or any other game charactor. In Asia, they are heroes!

2-Advent Children - How many games in general get full length movies created by their fanbase and sold by the millions internationally? not many!

3-i have yet to see any game with such an Epic storyline and a truly end-of-the-world climactic finale

this could go on, but seeing as how i'm still at work, i better get off before i get caught :-P Though i have no doubt there will be tons of ppl to back me up!

Definately out of order

None of the winners really seem to belong on the list. The honorable mentions are probably better candidates than anything on the winners list.

Of course EQ is really given credit that belongs to Sierra's "The Realm" (which is still kept around by loyal players to this day). EQ basically latched onto this idea and made it run in 3D. The realm did have a much more fully developed social system and economy than EQ but it was hardly a social experiment. It contains a fully developed magic and combat system, dozens of magical items and spells, several races, and PVP.

If the realm were revamped with a modern graphics system and revamped idea of PVP that allowed for large scale combat then it would probably the best MMORPG today.

Where's Phantasy Star?

Those were some of the best RPGs back in the day

Oblivion? how much did bethesda pay them?

oblivion just came out and although it looks pretty it's nowhere near any of the other entries in terms of gameplay or greatness (not to mention the ridiculous level scaling and object scaling system, that changes the loot and everything depending on your level, basically destroying any sense of immersion you might have in the game world).

Planescape: Torment

Who cares about Ultima? As long as Planescape: Torment is in a well-deserved second place, I don't care about anything else. Torment was the first and still only computer game that actually feels like a RPG. Excellent storytelling and excellent writing on top of that, but the most important thing is that you actually roleplay an interesting character, instead of just an empty set of stats and weapons who's mainly exploring other people's lives. If that's not a leap forward in CRPGs, I don't know what is.

Still, pen & paper RPGs are better.

Something is missing

How can there be a list of RPGs, and not one page mentions Wizardry?

If there's one thing I would like to see more of, it's Wizardry 8-style party RPGs. I don't think they even make those anymore... *sniff*

Is this list off or am I out of touch

I have only heard about 3/5 of the top 5, yet I knew all of the honorable mentions. Am i just old?

Wizardry?

I'm shocked, shocked to find that game not mentioned here! This is the 1981 classic that started them all. You can't look at a tactical battle menu or a party status display or even the screen layout of almost any CRPG without seeing the legacy of Wizardry. Even Dragon Warrior's trademark slimes have precedent here. Wizardry combat [mobygames.com]

The Longest Journey

stands out in my mind as an RPG I played the HECK out of repeatedly.

Wow- I actually agree with most of this

Fallout and Planetscape Torment absolutely deserve #1 and #2, although I'd personally reverse them. They are the two best *R* *P* Gs out there- you get to play an actual character who you learn to care about, not just a bundle of stats that has to kill 945 kobolds to get the next level. You get to make real choices that determine outcomes, and you don't have to simply kill everything in your path to win. I note both of them are placed in worlds quite different than the usual Tolkein-derived Elf-and-Orc fest

Deus Ex and Oblivion are close: it should be System Shock 2 and Morrowind instead, but I can see why they chose the ones they did

The only significant omission IMHO is Wizardry. There are so many firsts in that game it's scary- I think most people forget how lame 99% of all Apple games were.

FPS?

9-2 were roleplaying games and then number one is a first person shooter?

How does that work? I guess at least they had the decency to name Torment as the number 1 RPG.

Incorrect use of quantum

Am I the only one that can't stand it when people use "quantum" to mean big when in fact it implies discrete (since it refers to indivisible things)? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum [wikipedia.org]

Jeez. It makes me clench up my fist every time.

Article misses its own point a little

If the point is about quantum leaps, the article was a bit careless.

Planescape: Torment is awesome, but it's probably, technically, redundant to Fallout. Fallout was the first (IIRC) Black Isle-style RPG, which are notable for being RPGs in the old sense, and it's Fallout that made the quantum leap; P:T and Baldur's Gates et al "merely" polished that leap. That opens up a slot.

Many people are mentioning System Shock 2, which I'd point out isn't that different from System Shock 1, which itself is clearly descended from Ultima Underworld, which is what should get the nod on that line. Also, interestingly, all from the same company (more or less; SS2 was developed by Looking Glass offshoot Irrational Games and Looking Glass and published by Electronic Arts [wikipedia.org].

Oblivion simple doesn't belong. Morrowind may. I'm striking it because I've seen many games like that before and I'm taking the "quantum leap" idea at its word. I'll replace it with Ultima 4, for introducing the idea that RPGs can be more than brutal slaughtering, something still underrated today. All main-stream Ultimas are from Origin.

Dues Ex I can't speak to, never played it, so I'll defer to the article and leave it up there.

And finally, while I don't know whether I'd pick Chrono Trigger per se, but surely "the first significant JRPG" deserves a mention. However, the problem here is that there really were no quantum leaps, it has been a very smooth evolution. (Final Fantasy I is half Ultima-pre-IV and half Bard's Tale, for instance, not a quantum leap.) I've never played FF7, but one may make the argument that if you're going to try to tell a cinematic, linear story (which has it's place, although I wish they had something we could all agree to call them other than RPG), it is a quantum leap to be able to have cinematics and full motion video.

I note with interest that in all four cases where I changed something, all the relevant choices came from the same company. There's Black Isle RPGs, Origin RPGs, Looking Glass (first-person action) RPGs, and (weakest of all/most competition) Square RPGs.

Maybe consolidation isn't the best thing for the industry after all.

(OK, no "maybe".)

Well...

I read the beginning of the article, and didn't notice anyone saying COMPUTER RPGs.

"Which role playing game over the entire history of the genre do you think has made the biggest 'quantum leap', and why?"

I'm going to go with Dungeons and Dragons for $100, Chuck.

They call that a Quantum Leap Awards ???

I've played almsot all the games listed and more, my comment is that even though I agree on games such as Chrono Trigger and FF4 been innovative and good design, since they are the first wave to include some nice interaction in the game, such class change, or time travel, dynamic turn base, with really good story line (MUSIC TOO!!!), and alright graphics for that age. But in awarding such type of game it would be equally valid to place the game Secret of Mana for SNES too. Though my second favorite is Breth of Fire II. Anyhow, though I agreed on some titles, but I totally disagree on having games such as Neverwinter Nights, Obliving, and Everquest on the award list because Neverwinter Night even thoug has many great features such as mule and started early, but this game didn't come out until 3 years after its promissed release date, by then so many good 3D games have alraedy came out, rendering NWN out of date. For everquest, even though its one of the first full 3D MP_RPG, but the first version graphics are so bad that its hardly interesting to play, the real success of full 3D RPG would have to goto the beta phase of Phatasy Star Online, which was out way ealier I think. As to Obliving, its alright to fit into a good RPG section, but what makes it so different from Boulder's Gates and other similar games? What really made a impact on the MMP_RPG game world would be DIABLO II. I am sure every online rpg gammer must've came across that game sometimes in their life, and if they ever played it, there will be no doubt of hooking on it back then. If I would place a game award for Quantum Leap in 3D or semi 3D world, it would surely be Diablo 2 or (if World of WarCraft is valid) to be top nominees. Feel free to critic on my views... But be honest, their ratings are pretty terrible... right?

Oblivion???

Daggerfall was a quantum leap with enormous world and huge freedom.

Morrowind was a quantum leap with enormous highly detailed world and even more freedom.

Oblivion was just a sequel with better graphics, some freedom added in a few places and lots of it removed in others. And role-playing elements cut more than by half, comparing to Morrowind.

Oblivion as third?

Fallout and PS:T are well-placed, but I'd have probably put at least one of the Ultimas or possibly the series as a whole on #1. While I've never been that much of an Ultima player (I played mostly 7, 8 and 9 and more recently started to play the excellent Ultima V mod for Dungeon Siege) I admire and appreciate it for being everything I want in an RPG. It's a wide, open world where you can do what you want. What you do has an actual impact on the game world - choice and consequence. You have your great dialog, too. Maybe not as excellent as PS:T, but as good as you can get with branched keyword dialog systems. Also love the fact that you have to keep track of your quests and things like that yourself in the earlier parts of the series.

And what does Oblivion have? A shallow plot, a tiny amount of new lore, idiotic dialog, hand-holding at all times, no politics at all; not between individuals and not between factions. Nothing. Morrowind was 10x the RPG Oblivion is, and that's not even mentioning Daggerfall. Oblivion is the coffin in which TES will be buried. It may be a good action game, but it stinks as an RPG.

It's a new RPG

In this game you play the role of an electron. The game will feature ground breaking new features such as:
- You never see your character, you just see an out of focus misty blob. This is to simulate Heisenberg's principle of uncertainty
- Sometimes your character will be able to go through solid walls due to tunnel effect.
- The scenario will look suspiciously like a madman's vision of atoms and crystaline structures
- The caracter will spend most of it's time buzzing around the same place (atom) and will only be able to go somewhere else after being hit by photons with the right amount of energy.

This is scheduled to ship right after Duke Nukem Forever.

Google, Please Define Quantam

Google, please define Quantam...

1. The smallest physically realizable unit of something.
2. The smallest discrete amount of any quantity (plural: quanta)
3. The smallest 'unit' of energy. A quantum of light is called a photon.

Explain to me again why people use a word that is defined as the smallest difference to describe what they think are big changes?

Re:Anybody remember

Do you mean Sword of Vermillion [wikipedia.org]?

Oh Boy!

Would love to play as Sam Beckett or Al Calavicci. Classes are traveller, resident, or hologram representation from the future.

Re:The Elder Scrolls IV: Oblivion???

Did they even look at Morrowind (Elder Scrolls III)? Oblivion wasn't much of a step forward from that at all. In some ways it was a step back (spoon feeding every little detail of quests rather than actually needing to follow directions, idiotic persuasion minigame, a boring world compared to Morrowind, etc.) Oblivion = Morrowind + new shiny graphics + horses + shitty minigames.

Re:FF

My thoughts exactly. I mean, jesus, the answer is right there in the link... but no... that's too much effort!

Re:FF

WoW is an excellent MMORPG. But it has done absolutely nothing innovative or interesting for the the RPG genre. MMOs are popular mainly because of their social aspects. The one thing WoW did right was made it so that casual players can level more quickly. This shows future games how to set up their MMO, but does nothing for the RPG genre. Remove the social aspect of WoW and you have a miserable excuse of a game. All you have left is a level grind and extremely boring quests. Their is story in WoW, but you have to dig hard for it...most of it you have to get from external websites. RPGs have evolved in to interactive fiction. Story is the key element and in that WoW fails. It has story, but it lacks a storyteller. It also has not brought anything new mechanicwise. So yeah, WoW has made a lot of money and is an addictive MMORPG but it does not belong anywhere near this list.

Re:The Elder Scrolls IV: Oblivion???

Oblivion is overrated. I think what really killed it for me was the small size of the game world. I mean, yeah, I guess it's technically pretty big, but it feels very small because you can autotravel to every location and the storyline takes place in those very same locations. So when I finally started doing the main quest, it felt so stupid because I was just visiting the same old areas all over again. There's no sense of adventure or travel, no change of scenery.

There is some cool stuff in Oblivion, and sometimes it was fun to just roam around and do stuff, but I was really disappointed in the story.

Re:FF

Warcraft isn't a role-playing game. It's an adventure game combined with an AOL chatroom. There's as much roleplaying there as there is in tetris.

Warcraft hasn't invented or innovated anything, they've just taken an existing format and dumbed it down for the masses.

And if making the most money is what defines a good game, then we may as well cancel the game industry.

Re:at first

"Al, why haven't I jumped yet?"

"You have to side with one of the factions in town (or the mercenaries), clear the Valley of Mines of Orcs and reach the destroyed remains of the Old Camp and then hunt and kill the four elemental dragons to ..."

"Ah fuck it, Al, isn't there a brothel down on the docks?"