Blame Gaming - Is the Blinking PS3 Sony's Fault?

mattnyc99 writes "After discovering a blinking problem associated with the HDCP handshake from an HDMI cable to the PlayStation 3, then solving it, Popular Mechanics has now set off a mini-war between Westinghouse and Sony. The 1080p TV set maker appears to be blaming Sony as the source of the blinking PS3, and the two powerhouse companies have organized a meeting to settle the score. From the article: '[Westinghouse had] one suggestion for PS3 owners with blinking Westinghouse televisions: Purchasing an HDMI to DVI adapter to bypass HDCP. Average cost of an adapter: $30. As we reported last week, Popular Mechanics has found an even easier solution: Unplugging the HDMI cable, and then plugging it back in'"

There's only one way this can be settled...

...STARING CONTEST!!!!!

Super Mario Kart

Is obviously the best tool in this 'contest', without any doubt.

Relevant Section

There's a lot of review in the first link and very little "blinking problem". Here's the relevant paragraph.

Our console also had a few technological burps that we weren't sure could be attributed to the PS3 or our test equipment. For instance, on multiple occasions, the HDMI connection to our 1080p set (a stunning piece of equipment itself) caused the image to blink on and off repeatedly--a problem that was solved by simply unplugging and replugging the cable. Was this Sony's fault or Westinghouse's? We're not sure, but no other device has caused our equipment to blink like that. Hmmm.

Yes, It's Sony's fault

As well as Westinghouse's. Anyone that wants to implement the DRM without full testing (or hell, implement it, period) gets the blame.

Re:Yes, It's Sony's fault

I'm giving it slightly more weight against Westinghouse than Sony. It seems odd to me that the PS3 would work perfectly fine with other HDTVs, and then be at fault for not working with one particular brand. It's possible that some small quirk of the PS3 is contributing, but given that we haven't seen reports of the PS3 failing with Samsungs, Toshibas etc. I highly doubt Westinghouse's claims about it being a problem with the "source".

Re:Yes, It's Sony's fault

It seems odd to me that the PS3 would work perfectly fine with other HDTVs, and then be at fault for not working with one particular brand.

Isn't it just as peculiar that the Westinghouse works just fine with other HDCP compliant devices without this issue? Your suspicions on this company are a symptom of Sony Fanboyism. There is a problem with these two companies products, they (not just Westinghouse) need to fix it.

Re:Yes, It's Sony's fault

You completely missed the point of his post. The Westinghouse unit is NOT having a problem with other players.

So by your logic, if the TV works fine with EVERY other player out there, then the ONE that's not working (the PS3) must obviously be at fault right?

What we have here is a compatibility issue between the two. Any finger pointing to lay blame on one or the other is pointless.

No Sony's Fault but Sony-fixable

Its just a matter of the handshake for HDCP not waiting long enough. The PS3 expects a reply to the handshake within a certain amount of time, and some older sets or ones that cut corners (Westinghouse - why did you think it was so cheap?) take an awfully long time to say 'yes, hi, here's the signal'.

So - not Sony's fault. However, I don't see why Sony couldn't easily tell the PS3 to wait a bit longer for the handshake, which is probably what will happen.

Also - there's typically no need to re-plug the HDMI cable if you happen to have this blinking phenomenon happening to you; just cycle the video Sources on yout TV. That should force it to re-negotiate. (My TV doesn't do this but a friend's does.)

I think I'm on Sony's side on this one...

It seems odd that this issue would only appear on Westinghouse displays if the problem was with the PS3. I own a PS3 and have it connected to a Samsung TV via HDMI and have never seen this issue.

Re:I think I'm on Westinghouse's side on this one.

Yes, but if the PS3s were the problem, we'd be hearing about it from more than just Westinghouse owners.

From phantomhitman on AVS Forums thread http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=75 2327 [avsforum.com] :

I am now worried to death that my tv will have issues with the PS3. Even though Sony demo'ed the PS3 with the tv that I have, it still means nothing to me until real people post up real info. If you have your PS3 hooked up via HDMI please post your results here. I am looking for a Sony xbr2 (46 inch version if that matters at all) that has tried this. Thanks for any info guys and gals.

Sony
xbr2 60 inches-Displays image fine when it is available but losses image randomly. Blackouts happen and then the image reappears.
xbr2 46 inch-No issues at all, syncs right up.
xbr1 50 inch-only displays at 720p (this could be because this set doesnt support 1080p, more research neeed)
xrd 60 and 50 inches-Randomly loses signal like the 60" Sony xbr2

Samsung
BD-P1000-steady flickering image
other display "sparkly" noise images with 1080p resolution but seems fine with 720p.
4696D-reports no signal found via hdmi sometimes and other times it works great.
HL-S5087W-no issues with hmdi

Panasonic
TH42PX500-Randomly loses signal like the 60" Sony xbr2

Westinghouse
LVM-47w1-Randomly loses signal like the 60" Sony xbr2
42w2-flashing screen and signal loss but works fine via hmdi-dvi
37w3-flashing screen and no signal, turn off the tv and turn it back on and it seems to work.

JVC
JVC HD-61FN97-seems to work fine with everything except 480p via hdmi

For once it isn't Sony's fault

As Popular Mechanic already pointed out this is the TV's fault. Westinghouse isn't responding the the HDCP handshake fast enough (as defined by the HDCP spec). If you call Westinghouse they will even send out a tech to update your firmware to fix it.

Before you get that tech out to fix it, the DVI convert will work well, or Component cables, or the hack-o-the-week of unplug the HDMI cable.

So.. how is this Sony's fault exactly?

Westinghouse has already said in previous statements that there is a firmware upgrade for their televisions that fixes this problem.

I'm all for bashing Sony, but, if the TV has an upgrade that eliminates this problem, why is this Sony's fault?

Ahh, StupidDRM strikes again...

Why they didn't just have HDMI's "copy protection" be ROT13?

It wouldn't be any less secure than the stupid crypto they used, would still make sure the DMCA anti-circumvention provisions are in force, and would be less likely to be F@#)$(*ed up.

(This post has been double-encrypted with ROT13. Reading this post without authorization will violate the DMCA anti-circumvention protections)

what about we the customers?

Here's where the providers of "stuff" for "us" have gone astray... They're arguing the wrong argument. None of us give a flying f*** whose fault the blinky is... we're freaking customers! And instead of apologies and fixes with humble apologies to the customers, these people don't have enough fingers on their hands to point blame on someone else.

Message to providers of stuff: Provide us with good products, easy to use, and at reasonable cost and price. If something is wrong with the product, fix it.

Sony doesn't support HDMI-DVI cables

I knew about the HDMI->DVI solution a while ago as I started off without an HDMI->HDMI cable. After installing the 1.50 firmware released last night my PS3 menu would not appear. I got a black screen (but the TV detected signal). When I managed my way blindly through the menu to start a game the game appeared fine. But when I quit back to the menu I was once again welcomed by a black screen.

I called Sony support. They had me power off (I forgot about that switch in the back) and connect the composite cables (yuck) then reselect HDMI from the menu. This worked.

I didn't want to get into the blinking issue with him, but when I told them that I worked around it with an HDMI->DVI cable the rep expressed surprise that it didn't break my TV and told me that Sony does not support this method.

The Popular Mechanics article mentioned that some VIP at Westinghouse said technicians would be sent out to repair all of the affected TVs. When I called Westinghouse (prior to contacting Sony), they said that they haven't figured out the logistics of the sending technicians all around the world to upgrade the firmware. They told me to call back in a few weeks.

After purchasing my first HDMI->DVI cable from RadioShak for $50, I picked up all my other HDMI and DVI cables from mycablemart.com for under $10. They work excellently. You'll have a hard time finding a better price.

Acronym hell?

I don't know what "HDMI to DVI adapter to bypass HDCP" means, and quite honestly, I don't care. But my question is, do manufacturers expect consumers to be able to understand all of this mess? What ever happened to plugging a game system into a TV? How many adapters and acronyms are people going to tolerate just to plug the damned thing to the TV? Sounds ridiculous to me. I'm a big fan of plain ol' RCA jacks: Red and white for audio, yellow for video. It's simple, and you can't screw it up. Just because the new sets and devices (like the PS3) are higher definition doesn't mean that plugging the damn things in should be so complicated. Why do I need 6 ways to connect a TV to a signal (coax cable, RCA plugs, S-video, HDMI, DVI, optical, etc.)? It makes me realize that I'm happy with my regular tube TV. It's cheap, it's simple, it looks good, and you don't have to go through 12 pages of directions to plug it in.

I can see it now....

"The 1080p TV set maker appears to be blaming Sony as the source of the blinking PS3, and the two powerhouse companies have organized a meeting to settle the score."

So, are we talking a death match here or will it be paper rock scissors to settle this?

Neither

The problem is neither Sony, nor Westinghouse. It's Intel.

The problem is due to the Digital Compatibility Prevention (HDCP) [wikipedia.org]. The protocol is designed to prevent devices working together unless each manufacturer pays royalties to Digital Content Protection LLC, a subsiduary of Intel. The connection used is HDMI, whose specification mandates the use of Digital Compatibility Prevention, which is a shame, because otherwise it would be a nice connector.

Until there is a digital connection standard which does not require that end-users be treated like criminals for having expensive displays, I will not be buying an HDTV, nor a PS3, and I urge others to do the same.

I'm betting on delivering video over gigabit ethernet winning, because it's cheap, cat 6 cables are dirt cheap, and it doesn't require royalties. I would suggest HD-SDI (co-ax is even cheaper than UTP), but the licence agreement prevents it being used in "consumer" applications.

HDMI - DVI would do nothing

All an HDMI to DVI adaptor does is take the video signal alone, without the audio channels, and feed it through the DVI side. If the video is HDCP encrypted, it will be encrypted on the DVI side as well as the adaptor is just passing the signal through - with the same results if the problem is the handshake speed as described.

The problem is the HDCP encryption, not the cable itself. The way to think of HDMI is a cable that bundles together DVI video and PCM audio all in one cable (that's not quite correct, but a good way to think about it).

Using HDMI (PS3) to DVI (TV) is pointless

The summary stated that Westinghouse said "Oh, just use an HDMI to DVI cable" - except that would defeat half the point of trying to use HDMI in the first place - the handshake is to let the DRM know that it's ok to send the 1080p signal because there isn't a recording device in between the PS3 and TV set (for pirating media such as movies)...

The other half of using HDMI is for the audio and video to be on one cable. It's actually rather funny, because my brother-in-law still thinks that HDMI is just for putting the a/v on one cable, and that there's no DRM involved...

Westinghouse not a Powerhouse

While I appreciate the pun in saying Westinghouse is a powerhouse company, it should be noted that in the present situation, they're actually a very small company. Westinghouse (the giant company) sell its trademarked name for other companies to use. So the TV maker Westinghouse's only relationship to Westinghouse Electric Company is the logo.

Depends

Did Sony back HDMI and HDCP? If so, then damn right they are to blame. Blaming a TV manufacturer for incorrectly implementing a standard that doesn't serve any useful purpose seems to ignore the real problem here.

Third solution

Blame the MPAA! Sony and Westinghouse might be complying with this HDCP crap, and an Intel subsidiary might be making royalty money off it, but these companies wouldn't care a bit if the movie industry didn't bully content protection on all of us.

Re:Guess what: it doesn't matter!

translation: The HDMI cable is useless hardware created to make life more difficult for consumers who respect copyrights, decreasing the inherent value of retail media, and increasing the value of pirated goods.