Hackers Dodge Xbox Live Shutout

An Ars Technica post at their games column Opposable Thumbs points out that, despite Microsoft's best efforts, hacked Xbox 360s are once again playing on Xbox Live. "Steadfast in their pursuits, the hackers of the Xbox 360 scene have managed to best Microsoft's Xbox Live Banning protocol: a system of checks in place to identify hacked Xbox 360s and deny them access to the Xbox Live Network. The current method of hacking the 360 involves exploiting the firmware of the DVD drive (the preferable method), and this latest patch does just that. In fact, the creators are so confident in their breakthrough that the info file remarks that the new firmware 'defeats all current and some future Xbox Live detection attempts.'"

How long until....

The person you are about to shoot may be playing on a hacked xbox, Do you want to continue?

Re:How long until....

Actually, the hack in question only allows the use of copies. There is an exploit which allows the execution of unsigned code, but it only works on a specific version of the kernel. Connecting to Live would automatically update the kernel (dash console), which would patch the exploit. So any claims that they are protecting against bots and cheats is pure FUD, since bots and wall hacks *do not exist* on the 360 (at this time); at least none that would work on Live.

Eventually another unsigned code vulnerability may be found (which is what you would need to run a modfied client), but this will almost definately not be a result of modifying the DVD-ROM firmware.

Once again...

The hackers have more manpower than Microsoft. It's also worth noting that they're probably more skilled than the XBL engineers.

Even if Microsoft had 1000 people working on this, the hackers would still be ahead. It's impossible to estimate how many people take a shot at console hacking just for the hell of it.

Inevitably, the hackers dominate just about any platform. That's just the way it works.

Re:Once again...

Not necessarily true. Hacking can get you a long way, but eventually it usually breaks down.

Case Study: A game I was part of the dev team for held an online, sponsored tournament. The four finalists were flown to Hawaii where they competed head to head on rigs provided by the company for the championship. One of the final four had been playing phenominally online, yet once he got to Hawaii, his game fell completely apart. He complained endlessly about how the computer he was playing on was different from what he was used to at home. Yet the other three players didn't complain at all. This guy got completely, embarassingly destroyed in the finals. And we eventually patched the hole he'd used to cheat his way to the finals.

But don't miss the fact that only 1 out of the 4 finalists was a cheater (I believe first place won $50,000 with a shot at a million-dollar challenge). The other three were simply legitimately good players.

Hmm

As far as I know, the mod in question only allows users to play "backups" of games - not to run arbitrary code (including cheats). So the concerns of people cheating are a little off the mark. As is the idea that the detection could really be moved to the server side - any detection regimen is going to have to look at the drive's firmware or some characteristic of the disk and this looking is going to be done at the client end.

Only a Half-Win

People with hacked Xbox 360s still need to buy a new system in order to play online. So it's really not all that bad for Microsoft. When they defeat _this_ hack, then all people with those hacked boxes would have to buy yet another Xbox. What would really screw up Microsoft's banning efforts is if people managed to change their console IDs. Then banning a console ID would put a regular Xbox 360 out of commission, and the banned one would just change to a different good ID again.

Excellent

It's good to read the hackers are continuing to fight for our rights to not only pirate (yeah, I know there are a lot of anti-pirate people here, I don't blame them one bit for being steadily opposed) games, but get access to the online community through a modded system. I've always wanted a modded console, but I know if that were to happen I would end up buying pratically nothing brand-new other than like maybe one or two games a year total across my systems, and I own every sytem except the wii. Even if I had to buy every single game I play from here on out, I have so many games to play waiting for me collecting dust or taking up HD space, I can easily wait for 90% of what comes out to drop in price or pick of used 6 mo to a year later for a signifigant fraction of what they cost new. If everyone was like me buying almost exclusively used or playing a lot of emulated retro titles, or even like the hardcore hacker/pirates (that don't buy anything at all anymnore cause they don't have to) the industry would change so much it would be hard to recognize. On the same hand, Pirates of the Carribean 3 the game will probably sell like ten times the numbers of copies sold of Psyconauts and Shin Megami Tensei 3 combined, so go figure..but I digress, pirating/hacking/modding will not be the death of the industry-just a continued challenge, and I love to read a bout a good digital brawl, being on the edge fringes of modding/piracy/emulation/backup stuff from decades ago to now.

Trusted Computing

We're seeing Trusted Computing at its finest.

Trusted Computing: noun
The act of trusting that any possible attack vector against a computers expected behavior will be done so by those that have nothing better to do than to game the system.

Deja vu

I've heard that line before. Weren't the last firmware hacks designed to be "undetectable by Microsoft"?

Please stop saying cheating is impossible

It is _not_ impossible to cheat, you can modify ini files to do it.*

I know that PGR3 and Gears of War being hacked in such a way its quite possible there are many more games.
Now this still may just be an excuse from MS though quite frankly they dont really need one, virtually the only other purpose of a modchip is piracy.

Either way cheating _is_ possible it _has_ been done and banning the modders _will_ stop it regardless of why you really think they have started the bannings.

*There may be other files you can use as well I cant say ive looked in to it much which is why im amazed at how many people claim to be knowledgable about these things yet seem to have missed the fact that there have been super supercars in PGR3 for months.

Can I

do this [penny-arcade.com] with the hack?

Clearing up some FUD

A couple of things:

1) To re-iterate what others are saying, the firmware hack does not defeat executable signatures, so the integrity of game code has not been compromised, however, game data files can be, and have been, compromised (Exo's GoW hacks). The simple solution is to update the executable with hard-coded data file checksums to go along with their weak signature security (in this case, on the GoW data files). So it's not entirely true that the firmware hack doesn't allow cheaters - but Microsoft has other avenues they can pursue in preventing cheaters. This wave of bannings represents an escalation in Microsoft's policy toward modders.

2) Something that many here miss, is that Microsoft has no direct access to the firmware for some models of the DVD drive they are using. Toshiba-Samsung MS28 drives, for example, have "Firmguard" - an attempt to thwart modders that has backfired on Microsoft. Why? Because powercycling the DVD with the correct VIA SATA chipset bypasses Firmguard as part of it's "Bad Flash" recovery mode. Microsoft cannot do this on the 360. This means they cannot read, nor write firmware to these drives.

There were several techniques Microsoft employed against modders in this last wave, verified by special debugging firmware employed - Microsoft was using an anomaly in the firmware's fetch of special sectors to determine if backups were employed (moddded Hitachi drives gave up the goods on this one), as well as more strict checking of those sectors (catching non-"stealth" backups), and finally, using Challenge/Response commands to do threshold timing (many used slower or faster timings on the firmware, which was detectable as being outside of thresholds).

There are still less reliable checks Microsoft may employ, but that dragnet will scoop up some legitmate users, too (No DVD Error code check, used to see who's been using their Xbox 360 as a power supply for the drive as they flashed it). If I was on the team, I'd rule that one out. There are a few other techniques, which I won't mention, since they haven't been discussed publicly, as the others I mentioned have (besides, Microsoft KNOWS how they are checking currently) - which have been identified and "fixed" in the current iXtreme 1.0 firmware.

For what it's worth, many, many 360 modders have NOT been banned. It may be these checks were only performed when they were actively playing a backup on Live... no pattern has emerged, and much of the data is suspect (panicky users, usual liars, etc...).

If Microsoft wants to defeat cheaters, all they need to do is employ a couple of interns to surf the scene sites for hack news, then simply order up special bannin' updates for those hacked games, to detect cheater's data files and ban those specific machines. Future game releases could incorporate some security libraries to make data files more secure (the code currently cannot be hacked).

Re:Does it really even matter?

PS3 - free online, dedicated servers, 32, 40 player games

I assume that this will remain a theoretical maximum until such time as the 32nd PS3 is actually sold?

Re:Does it really even matter?

Huh weird my GoW multiplayer perfect...my Cod3 (24 people) no issues...so either your connection sucks or you are talking out your ass.

Re:Does it really even matter?

Most of these arguments are bogus.

Complaints of them being laggy are anecdotal at best, exaggerations in general. I've played XBL since crimson skies was available on the original - normally on a comcast or better connection. Sometimes I have a laggy connection, but that's only if the game I'm playing uses a wrong/bad algorithm for picking a host or if the host becomes laggy after it's been picked.

Instead, a large portion of the games I play have so much going on, lag is the last thing I'm thinking about.

Indeed, the benefits of XBL over free-for-all networks are more than just a connection, mostly it's trueskill or some variant that games implement. If I'm a level 20+ player in halo2/cod3, etc. I'm all but guaranteed to play similarly leveled people. This means I'm not subject to my teammates/opponents fucking around (team killing, lagging, quitting, or other forms of douchebaggery) near as much as some free for all. I get to play with highly skilled people, AGAINST highly skilled people, and have fun.

Re:Does it really even matter?

so you're basically saying: PC - lots of games PS3 - lots of games Xbox360 - only one game and it's not even out yet...

Re:Does it really even matter?

Actually games have had dedicated servers. Battlefield modern combat comes to mind specifically.

Re:Does it really even matter?

You must be the same guy as the one from up above.

Take the stick out of your ass, slashbot.

Re:Future detection attempts?

Nope, because 360s use a few different brands of optical drives, each with their own firmware. Ban one, the hack for another pops up. Lather, rinse, repeat.

Re:Does it really even matter?

I mostly play on a server that's aggressively monitored for cheaters, so when a cheater's caught (happens almost daily) a can see how good I am comparing to him. The cheaters routinely get owned by me, and I'm just a mediocre player. Perhaps if you move from mindless shooting to more advanced tactics you'll experience the same effect?

Re:Does it really even matter?

I found 10 pages of games at http://www.xbox.com/en-US/games/catalog.aspx?WT.sv l=nav [xbox.com]