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Croal vs. Totilo - The Manhunt 2 Letters

Posted by Zonk on Fri Jun 29, 2007 11:12 AM
from the putting-your-press-hat-on dept.
The Media Games
N'Gai Croal (of Newsweek) and Stephen Totilo (of MTV) once again match wits in a textual format, this time over the Manhunt 2 controversy. In Round One, the two reporters discuss the process of playing the game for the first time, and wonder what the experience must have been like for the ESRB raters. Round Two sees them take things up a notch, discussing what exactly it is about the game that's so violent. Round Three ... has them questioning the nature of gaming itself. As always, these are two smart guys with some interesting insights into the medium. Well worth your time. From N'Gai's final letter: "It's difficult to 'read' or derive much meaning from a game. That's why in our three Vs. Modes, we ultimately don't spend very much time talking about or analyzing the experience of playing a game, because it's hard to do so without turning our emails into "I went here. I did this. I picked that up." Which is, after all, what games are. So if the essence of a game is located in what we do, is a walkthrough--go here, do this, pick up that--the most truthful way to write about the experience of playing a game? I hope not. But it's something we should consider. Once again, if the essence of any game is located in its action, reaction, interaction, and the rules which circumscribe those three elements, what does the narrative do?"

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[+] Croal vs. Totilo - The God of War 2 Letters 28 comments
I've mentioned previously how much I enjoy the writing of Newsweek's N'Gai Croal and MTV's Stephen Totilo. All this week, then, it's been a pleasure to enjoy their witty exchange on the PS2's most recent blockbuster, God of War 2. The conversation is spread across both Croal's LevelUp column and Totilo's Player Two blog, and features ruminations on the title from a number of viewpoints. If you have some time this afternoon I highly recommend you give their full correspondence a look. More than just a discussion about a single game, they manage to capture some of the greatness of the medium, with their conversation ranging across genre, time, and content to get at some of the most fundamental elements of videogaming. From N'Gai's final post: "I've said before that we 'see' videogames with our hands. Extending that analogy further, the way cutscenes are used today is the film equivalent of title cards during the silent film era: even though the audience came to the movies to watch people move, they had to do a fair bit of reading to get the full measure of the filmmaker's vision. Similarly, cutscenes leave gamers watching when they should be playing. Sure, cutscenes can communicate critical information; they allow for dramatic and spectacular sequences that might be too difficult to pull off interactively; they provide a nice breather or bookend to lengthy gameplay sections. But just as silent film gave way to the talkies, cutscenes need to keep giving way to gameplay so that our eyes--excuse me, our hands--are constantly engaged."
[+] Manhunt 2 Ban Fallout, Game Rated AO By ESRB 384 comments
In the wake of yesterday's announcement of a UK ban on Manhunt 2 , Rockstar has registered its disappointment at the BBFC's decision. The company simply stated that they 'respect those who have different opinions about the horror genre and videogames as a whole, but we hope they will also consider the opinions of the adult gamers for whom this product is intended.' Meanwhile, here in the US, the ESRB has given the game the dreaded AO rating, for adults only. If you're unfamiliar with this seldom-seen designation, it's essentially the 'kiss of death' for a title at retail; a number of popular videogame outlets refuse to carry titles with that rating. MTV's Stephen Totilo has a lengthy and considered discussion of these proceedings. "For 'Manhunt 2,' signs pointed to the title being both less and more extreme than the first. Gone from press previews were mentions of snuff films and Directors. Instead, a more traditionally violent video game premise: one man's struggle to stay alive in an insane asylum gone mad."
[+] Take Two Vows To Publish Manhunt 2 116 comments
Despite Manhunt 2's bad reception in both UK and US, Take Two has publicly announced that it will publish the game at some point. Backing the title as art, once again, the company vowed to see the game released in some capacity or another. "The chairman added that Take-Two subsidiary Rockstar Games, which publishes Manhunt and the Grand Theft Auto series, sees itself as a producer of games rated M for Mature. However, Zelman did say Take-Two would stand by its game, even if it bore the dreaded AO for Adults Only rating. 'We don't see ourselves in the Adults Only business,' he told analysts listening to the call. 'Having said that, if we find ourselves in the Adults Only business, it would be because we have a title that we consider art and entertainment, that we consider if appropriately labeled AO, and that we would like to bring to market.'"
[+] Condemned 2 Trying to Avoid Manhunt 2's Fate 108 comments
CVG is reporting that Monolith, makers of the upcoming Condemned 2, are working with the ESRB to avoid an AO rating. As we've discussed previously, an AO ban in the states is effectively a ban on retail sales. From the article: "When asked for examples of what we might now never see in a game again, we were told, 'An example of what we cut would be putting someone's head in a vice. That was too much, you know. There are also some decapitations we've lost. But this is more Sin City than it is real world and we want people to know that this is not a real world.'"
[+] Rockstar Appeals British Ban on Manhunt 2 56 comments
1up is reporting (via MCV) that Rockstar has decided to appeal the BBFC ruling on their uber-violent Manhunt 2 title. The 'next step' is to get a hearing scheduled, which will allow the game to be demo'd and arguments given. "Rockstar Games had been given six weeks to appeal the decision, and with that opportunity about to expire, the company lodged its formal appeal yesterday ... The appeal was filed with the Video Appeals Committee, which can overturn the BBFC decision. As noted in our first article about the ban, the VAC overturned the BBFC's ban of Carmageddon back in 1997, giving Rockstar a glimmer of hope in its current situation."
[+] Croal vs. Totilo - Metroid Prime 3 vs. BioShock 75 comments
Another round of considered commentary from two game journalism luminaries is now completed, and ready for your consumption. Newsweek's Croal and MTV's Totilo go back and forth on the merits of those 'other' console shooters, the ones without Halo in the title. What follows is a fascinating conversation focused on the titles BioShock and Metroid 3, with a wide-range of topics explored. They touch on the importance of a memorable opening, the sense of empowerment required for a good game, and a few words on what may have been lost in the move to 3D in the Metroid series. 'There's a very real argument to be made that something was lost in the transition from 2D to 3D, which is what the Wii's backers have been happy to talk about. While it's worth exploring why the transition ruined things for some gamers, I think little has been discussed about why other gamers didn't lose touch and what kind of tastes may have developed in those of us who stayed hardcore on both sides of the break. What do such gamers have to add to a discussion that so often deals only with the lapsed 2D gamers and the children of the 3D era, to say nothing of the outsider casuals?'"
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  • Obvious... (Score:4, Insightful)

    by badasscat (563442) <<basscadet75> <at> <yahoo.com>> on Friday June 29 2007, @11:29AM (#19690263) Homepage
    Once again, if the essence of any game is located in its action, reaction, interaction, and the rules which circumscribe those three elements, what does the narrative do?

    Here's an example of a writer trying to sound smart by taking something obvious and "deconstructing" it to make it look not obvious. ("Deconstructing" is in quotes because that's not actually what deconstruction is, but it's how some writers define it if they don't know any better.)

    The answer is the narrative guides your action, reaction and interaction, and it describes the rules which circumscribe those three elements.

    There - happy? It really is that simple. The narrative exists for the purposes of guiding you to various places to do various things, and to tell you what you are and aren't allowed to do in those places and with those things with which you can interact.

    Which is just a fancy way of saying what we've all known narratives do since time began. Questioning it now doesn't make it any less true.

    (You can question anything - is the sun hot? Is ice cold? Does gravity = 9.8? But those questions don't in themselves form indictments or arguments against tradition or fact, which means they really have no point.)

      • Re: (Score:1)

        by morari (1080535)
        I don't believe that the ESRB plays the games that they rate at all. They are sent video footage by the developer of what is the most objectionable content in-game and base their opinions on that. Furthermore, their opinion is probably entirely politically

        • Re: (Score:3, Insightful)

          by Aladrin (926209)
          From what I've heard before, you are correct about them not playing the game. It is up to the developer to give them a sample of the game (in video format) that they could expect the user to see. The rating is based on that.

          As for the 'political' motivat
            • You've answered your own question. AO is the kiss of death. That's what it's for.

              • Re: (Score:2)

                by Talgrath (1061686)
                Wrong. AO is for essentially the NC-17 of the video game ratings board; extreme violence or nudity are what will get you this rating. It's also worth noting that an AO rating is only the "kiss of death" for CONSOLES. There's nothing to prevent you from
                • I believe ANY nudity at all will automatically bump it up to AO... If you recall the nipple textures found on the Oblivion disc got it bumped up to AO temporarily after it was release...

                    • Re: (Score:1)

                      by hidannik (1085061)
                      I haven't gotten that far in the game yet and so cannot speak from direct experience, but several reports online have it that the sex scene was removed from the North American version to get the M rating. European censors are more tolerant of sex in enter

                  • Re: (Score:2)

                    by Nevyn (5505) *

                    And as counter argument I give you God of War 1 and 2, both of which have naked breasts at multiple points. And both have "sex games" to earn experience.

                    Let's face it video game ratings are just done using a bag of popcorn a 10 sided die factoring in t

          • Re: (Score:1)

            by joerdie (816174)
            AO does NOT mean that the game cannot be released. It means that most retailers will not sell it in the store. This kills the profit of the game if it can only be sold in porn shops and mom and pop's who wish to seel it. Also, and I may not be 100% correc
            • Actually, Sony Nintendo and Microsoft have stated that they will not allow Ao games to be licensed for their consoles. So if you get an Ao rating in essence you are banned from all the major consoles.

          • Re: (Score:1)

            by morari (1080535)

            As for the 'political' motivation... What political motivation is needed to rate a game? They didn't sit down and say 'Well, we hate them, and AO will basically ban their game, so let's do that.' They watched the video, it was beyond M rating, and they rated it appropriately.
            You're correct, without having played it myself I can't say for sure. However, my point was that the controversy that had already erupted over the game prior to even being finished or rated very well may have resulted in clouded judgments. Raters go into

          • Re: (Score:1)

            by Sly-Ry (1121577)
            "As for the 'political' motivation... What political motivation is needed to rate a game? They didn't sit down and say 'Well, we hate them, and AO will basically ban their game, so let's do that.' They watched the video, it was beyond M rating, and they ra

      • Re: (Score:1)

        by aichpvee (631243)
        Word has it that they didn't play Manhunt 2 but just watched the video trailers. That's usually how it works, right? They try to shoehorn video games into the same ratings mechanic as movies just because they have graphics and then boost the rating 2 or

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by ravyne (858869)
      ("Deconstructing" is in quotes because that's not actually what deconstruction is, but it's how some writers define it if they don't know any better.)

      Here's an example of a writer trying to sound smart by taking something obvious and "deconstructing" it t
    • I think you miss several points to be made about this.

      It's "obvious" but at the same time it's obfuscated. How often when playing games, or at any time for that matter, do gamers stop and consider the "obvious" in full detail? Despite the fact that the rep

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by brkello (642429)
      Here's an example of a writer trying to sound smart by taking something obvious and "deconstructing" it to make it look not obvious. ("Deconstructing" is in quotes because that's not actually what deconstruction is, but it's how some writers define it if t

      • Re: (Score:3, Insightful)

        by Lord Bitman (95493)
        I read and re-read the gp, and nowhere did it imply that its writing was somehow "superior" to the article in question's. ("superior" in quotes because I'm quoting you). The poster seems annoyed by assholes, and doesn't at all bring up whether or not /he/
  • They allow wit on MTV? o_O

  • Ouch... (Score:3, Insightful)

    by travdaddy (527149) <travo&linuxmail,org> on Friday June 29 2007, @12:31PM (#19691087)
    Anybody see anything wrong with this? It's a quote from Croal in the article:

    It's hard to argue that games have anything approaching the depth of theater, novels, movies or television given the medium's newness; its requirement of repetitive action, reaction and interaction to maintain the player's interest; the thinness of its characters; the perfunctoriness of its plots; the lack of complex or even complicated psychology. It would be like arguing that an activity--a mountain hike, laps in a pool or a game of chess--is profound.

    • Re: (Score:1)

      by lmnfrs (829146)
      That makes me unsure whether or not I actually want to RTFA. I haven't read much of what Croal or Totilo have said in the past, but I had the impression Croal wrote some good stuff.
      Please tell me that the rest of his words don't come off as an uninformed
      • Only read "Round 1" so far, but the article is, dubious quotes that really don't give a fair impression of the article aside, pretty much one of the most interesting things I've read in a while. I do recommend RTFAing.

      • Re: (Score:3, Insightful)

        by MeanderingMind (884641) *
        The quote is missing context. I'm not sure I can do his position justice through a summary and highly recommend you RTFAs. It's probably the best set of articles on Video Games I've read in ages.

        That said, here's my limited understanding.

        Croal's position i

      • Re: (Score:1)

        by lmnfrs (829146)
        I've only had time to get through part of Round 1 so far, but it's quite good. I agree with the siblings that I should read the rest.. thanks guys.

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by Pluvius (734915)
      Anybody see anything wrong with this?

      No. Croal is pretty much straight on the mark with his assessment of the current artistic value of video games for two reasons:

      1. Video games have only been around in any meaningful form for about 30 years. Televisio

        • Re: (Score:2)

          by Pluvius (734915)
          Have you ever played any RPGs(especially Japanese/console RPGs) or advendure games?

          Yes. A lot of people would argue that those are closer to movies than games. Certainly the literary aspects of both generally require little to no interactivity (offering
  • the article discusses what the raters "were thinking as they played the game." and i know exactly what they were thinking: nothing! the ESRB raters don't actually sit down and play, instead, they watch a several-minutes long reel featuring the most violent

    • Re: (Score:1)

      by OoZz (997149)
      Out of curioisty where did you come across this information?
      • its fairly common knowledge. do a bit of research on the ESRB ratings system, you'll find it. this is how things like Oblivion got re-rated after release: the video may not have shown the rotting zombies with the bones and meat sticking out of them, but r

        • Re: (Score:1)

          by OoZz (997149)
          Yeah after doing my research I found that you are correct. Which really disturbs me. Because although the game may be gory and violent, how are a group of video game raters supposed to come to a conclusion of whether or not it is acceptable amount or not i

  • Actually... (Score:1, Informative)

    by Omeger (939765)
    " In Round One, the two reporters discuss the process of playing the game for the first time, and wonder what the experience must have been like for the ESRB raters." Actually, the ESRB rarely, if ever, actually plays the games it rates. They look at foo
  • These letters were a surprisingly broad look at the issues surrounding video games. What I thought was especially nice was some discussion of implications on the gamer who chooses to play the game, which is rare since most of the time these are just defens
  • Just finished reading round 1, I'll get to the other rounds soon. Something I am in complete agreement with though was this statement...


    "Unless they have good reason to believe that this game is an imminent threat to the public order, or that it will in

    • Re: (Score:1)

      by Sly-Ry (1121577)
      "And when you think about the amount of clinical death and destruction in real-time strategy games like "Supreme Commander" and "Command & Conquer Generals 3," perhaps Stalin was right: one death is a tragedy, 200 gruesome deaths is ban-worthy, and a m

    • Re: (Score:1)

      by Sly-Ry (1121577)
      I applaud your post sir. Indeed, your point about you playing the good guy vs the obvious bad guys means it's ok, but it's wrong the other way around is indeed a load of crap because, when is it ever ok to carry out vigilante justice? Even if you're the
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