World of Warcraft - Wrath of the Lich King Officially Announced

An anonymous reader writes "Wrath of the Lich King is official! BlizzCon is in full swing, and celebrants there are already enjoying the Northrend-themed imagery. For a look at what's going on, Joystiq has a liveblog of the opening ceremony up. Games For Windows magazine, meanwhile, will feature WLK its next cover. The post on the 1up site has a number of details on the next expansion, including the introduction of the Death Knight, the first new class since WOW's launch 'World of WarCraft's first Hero Class is a plate-wearing tank/DPS hybrid that works a little something like this: When players hit level 80, they'll be able to embark on a quest (similar in difficulty to the Warlock's epic mount quest, back before the level cap was raised to 70) that unlocks the ability to create a Death Knight character. The Death Knight starts at a high level (somewhere around 60 or 70, though Blizzard isn't certain yet), so you won't have to grind your way back up all over again. It's intended as an alternative, advanced class for end-game use only.'."

So more grind...

The old EQ Skinner Box model strikes again. Every year or so, release an expansion that completely invalids any progress made in the last expansion. Problem is, it works as a money making venture, so other games follow the same suit rather than attempting to create games where content is for fun rather than for grind.

Re:So more grind...

In the long run, however, it tends to kill the game.

Re:So more grind...

> The old EQ Skinner Box model strikes again. Every year or so, release an expansion that completely invalids any progress made in the last expansion. Problem is, it works as a money making venture, so other games follow the same suit rather than attempting to create games where content is for fun rather than for grind
>
>In the long run, however, it tends to kill the game.

"How do you kill that which has no life?"

Easy. Release an expansion pack for Star Wars Galaxies.

Re:So more grind...

/sigh You do realize that the best geared guilds progress the fastest in the next expansion because they're the best geared for it. Granted they're going to upgrade their gear as they go, but they start with a significant advantage. So how is that "invalidating any progress" they made? If anything WoW is better than any other MMO I've played (EQ blaaah) for the sheer fact that they update content/balance/etc the game so much. And they do a bunch of it for "free" as well (read: you don't have to buy another expansion), they've released some monster patches. And also, creating a class that starts at lvl 60 or 70 is taking away the grind and adding to the fun, so I don't get that remark either???

Re:So more grind...

If anything WoW is better than any other MMO I've played (EQ blaaah) for the sheer fact that they update content/balance/etc the game so much. And they do a bunch of it for "free" as well (read: you don't have to buy another expansion), they've released some monster patches.

Welcome, from those of us at eve-online.

All our expansions and patches are free. No stringing people along waiting for the expansion. Also, I think I might have paid $20 for the game, which included the first month fee (usually $15).

Re:So more grind...

...as long as you're willing to start playing a game where you know'll forever be the bitch of some guy that's been playing since launch. At least WOW gives you a realistic shot at catching up with The Big Kids.

If I wanted that kind of depressing reality, I wouldn't need to be playing games.

Re:

The players that raid 40+ hours a week, that progress the fastest, tend to make up a very low % of the population. Most people haven't made it all the way through the last expansion, so any work they made towards getting to "the end" becomes moot, because

Re:So more grind...

Since you can't create content faster then people use it up you have to create content that has to be re doable (grinding). Blizzard has at least made their grinding more enjoyable then the other MMO's I've tried so far.

However at the moment it might seem that Blizzard is releasing new content a bit fast, I've yet to decide if that's a good or bad thing.

Re:So more grind...

Every year or so, release an expansion that completely invalids any progress made in the last expansion.

More than once a year. We are running on 14 expansions in 8 years. But I disagree. Have you ever played EQ? There are basically 3 things that can get added in any given expansion, beyond land mass
1) more gear / items
2) Level cap increase
3) More Alternate Advancement points available to purchase
You always get 1. 2 happens every other or every third expansion. 3 happens about out of cycle from 2, it seems. You are probably complaining because a new expansion invalidates your gear. Well suck it up. You are no less efficient a day after the new expansion grinding the old mobs, than you were the day before. But to enter the new areas, yes, it will be a challenge. Cry me a river.

Raising the level caps? That's just a part of life. Without that, the game stagnates. Again, you can cry me a river and I won't care.

Now, here is the beauty of Everquest, in my opinion. AA's. They give you a reason to live after you hit max level. You can funnel your experiance from grinding into ability points. These give you abilities not unlike talents in WoW, but a hell of a lot more of them. And you aren't restricted in how many you can obtain.
Endless treadmill? Only if you make it such.

Casual gamers?

It's intended as an alternative, advanced class for end-game use only.

I feel a great disturbance in the force. As if millions of casual gamers suddenly cried out in terror, and then were suddenly silenced.

Seriously, though. I hear people on WoW complaining about "the grind" which to me is the best part. I like questing from 1 to 70. I like experiencing the story and still being able to play with friends if I want. If they're going to start only catering to the "end-game" users, maybe my WoW time is coming to an end. Full time job, side consultant jobs, a wife, a kid on the way, and everything else just doesn't leave a lot of room for a raid schedule.

Re:Casual gamers?

I don't think it means that really. I think what it's actually for is for people like you (and me) who get to 80 and go, "Well great! Now what the fuck do I do?" Now there is an answer: "Switch to death knight (or whatever the frilly alliance equivalent will end up being), and then level back up to 80!" Leveling is always rife with solo content, so you'd have the fun of switching your class, and doing some more solo play, rather than the eternal instance/raid grind.

Of course, if you're a quest-a-holic this could be an issue because if you've done all the quests, you might have to grind your way back to 80 and that would suck.

Re:Casual gamers?

FYI: Blizzard is currently claiming [worldofwarcraft.com] that Death Knights will be available to both Horde and Alliance.

*throws continuity out the window*

Having said that, I expect that to change.

Re:Casual gamers?

End Game != raiding or even non-casual.

And for someone like you, that enjoys leveling toons, this sounds like a great addition.

Get to level 80 with your toon, and you unlock the ability to level another toon from 60 to 80, allowing you to see in new content you might have missed in the XPAC with your first toon.

Re:Casual gamers?

Seriously, though. I hear people on WoW complaining about "the grind" which to me is the best part. I like questing from 1 to 70.

Uh, yeah, I guess some people complain about the leveling "grind", but really WoW has one of the nicest leveling phases, replete with quests and things to do to fit a variety of playstyles.

"The grind" that everyone complains about is the one you do after reaching the level cap. The endless, endless rep grinding for faction rewards, heroic instance keys, etc etc. And actually despite there being more reps to grind, they aren't as bad as pre-expansion when the lvl 60 rep grinds were horrible time sinks of repetitive killing. Grinding Cenarian Hold or Argent Dawn rep was as arduous as the 1-60 leveling process, but much, much more boring. Or remember when you got to go farm for cloth so that other people could get to run a raid instance? That's what people complain about.

The leveling "grind" is great for casuals. It's the top-level content that at best tolerates casuals by giving them mindless repetitive tasks to perform.

Re:Casual gamers?

Uh, yeah, I guess some people complain about the leveling "grind", but really WoW has one of the nicest leveling phases, replete with quests and things to do to fit a variety of playstyles.

What are you talking about? Are we playing the same game*? Leveling is the most boring part of the game period. Sure, leveling your first character can be fun, but with every other character you end up doing the same boring quests, killing the same monsters etc. And what play styles? There is only one play style when leveling. Grinding by killing monsters. Endless fun.
Not.

"The grind" that everyone complains about is the one you do after reaching the level cap.

Yes and no. The grind is omnipresent before and after level 70. No one can deny that.

Or remember when you got to go farm for cloth so that other people could get to run a raid instance? That's what people complain about.

They kinda complain about that but not as much 1-70 grind. It is horrible. But well, people complain about everything in WoW (many of those complaints do have merit though), but saying that leveling is great (as in fun) part of the game is like saying that working on the assembly line is the most interesting job in the world.

The leveling "grind" is great for casuals.

Yes it is a grind, and yes it the worst part of WoW.

* I did quit, before I ruined my life.

Another hybrid....

Blizzard already did a poor job making the current hybrid classes playable. I don't think another one will improve the game.

Levelling

Reminds me of geocentrism. Works for a while but the exceptions and problems build until it's over complex and unwieldy.
 

Mid Level Content

WTF? So we got new early game and end game content in BC which was great. But where's the love for the mid levellers?

And what's up with an "unlockable" end game class? Too lazy to balance the new class all the way through?

Blizzard don't learn...

Again with the focus on End game and a 10 level rise. Not only will it now take months for the average gamer to reach endgame, they'll have to deal with the broken level 70 content as well as the broken level 60 content. I'm sure lots of people who started from scratch will remember the 'fun' of spending 500g leveling craft from 290-300 so you can then craft BC stuff, have class quests which require trying to find people willing to spend 4 hours in an instance with obsolete goods. With people leveling 60-70 post 2nd expansion they'll probably have all the fun of rep grinding as well as the empty instances they need to complete. Blizzard focus on endgame and ignore everything else. WoW is crying out for an anti-DPS class that can take out rogues and mages and have a strong focus on debuffs (spell breakers perhaps) but the devs are too lazy to balance level 1-70 content for a new class. Instead they're going the easy route and making endgame only classes

Re:Blizzard don't learn...

No, players don't learn. Hint: You're never ever going to be that überhero with all maxed skills and equipment unless you grind like crazy. And a little while after that, we'll release a new expansion with new levels, new equipment which you'll have to continue to grind if you want to stay on top. It's the pot of gold that keeps moving away as you approach it, like the frigging rainbow. And the players say "Thank you, may I have another please?" because Blizzard recently announced they were up to NINE million subscribers, which either means they have a) high turnover and tens of millions have tried it or b) they keep coming back for more, and I believe in b).

I have two friends that are pretty much the archetypes of WoW. One is a father of one (soon two), very relaxed about it all and playing it because he's having a good time. He'll do just fine. The other... well, he seems to want to "win" Wow, grinding away like crazy. You should almost think having a mega-character in WoW was some sort of investment, when you talk to him. Perhaps if you sold your account you'd get a pittance, but more likely he'll just keep it until it's no longer worth much - an expansion later and it won't be. I know hobbies don't need to be "productive", but something is wrong when you talk about it as if it were and it isn't. I mean, one thing is if you're a craftsman and make items - real, permanent and durable. Another is whatever you crafted in WoW which is a collection of pixels that'll be obsolete and worthless in a while, and meaningless if you quit WoW.

A better idea would have been casual classes

Newspaper reporters - you start gathering news items, become a town crier when not out in the field.

Battlefield surgeons - you go into the arenas not for Honor from killing but Honor from saving lives - and the chance for really neat medical equipment.

Philosophers - look, noone knows what they do anyway, even if one of my Ph.D. friends who discovered most of the Tuberculosis infection mechanisms got a degree in that, so WoW could make almost anything up about this and get away with it.

Bard - songs, stories, travelling to distant lands to get new songs and musical instruments, and so on, hanging out in bars, what more can one ask - also raises morale for parties, so people let you tag along.

Things like this that casual gamers could play and feel they are progressing no matter what else goes on.

Re:wow

Except with cocaine you don't have to grind for 10 hours to get a "hit".

Re:wow

Yea, usually crack ho's only need 3-5 hours of grinding before earning enough for a hit.

Re:wow

Yea, usually crack ho's only need 3-5 hours of grinding before earning enough for a hit.

Sounds great, but I'm not sure I want to do the quest line that unlocks that hero class. :P

Re:wow

With cocaine, the 10 hours of grinding comes after the hit.