The Wiimote As Yoda Intended - A Lightsaber

An anonymous reader writes "So what if the Wii can't handle the awesome 'next-generation' physics engine the other consoles will enjoy when Star Wars: The Force Unleashed is released? LucasArts announced today that Krome Studios is developing a version of the game for the Nintendo console, and players will finally get to use the Wiimote for its intended purpose — as a lightsaber. 'The sword-swinging action will be exclusive to the Wii version, and even then, it will only be available in an exclusive "duel mode." The description in the release says that this duel mode will be a multiplayer affair.'"

let me be the first

to welcome our wiimote toting sith overlords.

Re:let me be the first

Don't welcome them...

It's a trap!

Re:let me be the first

I for one welcome our lightsaber-dueling-related injury treating emergency room doctor overlords.

Re:let me be the first

Nobody is going to believe you were playing Star Wars naked when you sat on the wiimote, so don't even bother pretending.

Re:let me be the first

Nobody is going to believe you were playing Star Wars naked when you sat on the wiimote, so don't even bother pretending.

DOCTOR: So I am to understand that you were swinging the lightsaber around wildly while playing by yourself?
PATIENT: Yes!
DOCTOR: And you fell on your wiimote?
PATIENT: Yes!
DOCTOR: Wait a second...isn't there only lightsaber swinging in Duel mode?
NURSE: Busted!
RECEPTIONIST: There's someone here to see the patient...
MARIO: ITSA ME! MARIO! Yousa gotta no play witta da wiimote lika dat! Issa no goota for ayou digestion offa da lasagna! Shigeru'sa be amadd awitta us!
SHIGERU MIYAMOTO: No famry fun! No buttmote! You shame Nintendo pray!
(etc)

(sorry, I got off-track there)

Re:let me be the first

You have the ring, and I see your Wii is as big as mine. Let's see how well you handle it.

Avast!

players will finally get to use the Wiimote for its intended purpose -- as a lightsaber. 'The sword-swinging action will be exclusive to the Wii version, and even then, it will only be available in an exclusive "duel mode." The description in the release says that this duel mode will be a multiplayer affair.'"

Arrr! I be thinking it be more fun to have an actual lightsabre, be it plastic I don't be carin', with the Wii controller attached some way, so ye be hackin' and slashin' (and no small bit o' swashbucklin'!) to the dulcet tones of sommon bellowin' 'Hey, you could poke an eye out with that thing!'

We be needing cutlasses and some fing piratin' adventures, too. oX|P-)

force feedback

How do you get force feedback on those things?
You'll never know if you hit something. I'm a sword fencer (2 kg bastard sword) and the experience is much more tactile then visual. Even if you consider that light sabres are much lighter than a real sword and don't have bars to protect your hand I doubt if fencing with a light sabre wii control will live up tu the experience of real fencing - even if it's just for show.

Re:force feedback

A Jedi can slice through a person with a light saber with no perceptible change to the momentum of the saber, so it seems likely that there is not a whole lot of tactile feedback in a "real" light saber either. I think the tactile feedback would probably be little more than it would be if one were slicing a hot knife through butter. So, fencing with a light saber in any context would not "live up to" the experience of real fencing because the weapons involved are too different.

Having said that, they could provide some sort of little vibration plus a sound coming from the Wiimote's speaker to simulate impact. Even in a simple game like Wii Sports, the baseball game provides some feedback (a noise coming from the Wiimote itself) to simulate when the bat makes contact with the ball, and that actually is enough to make it feel at least somewhat real if you're absorbed in the game. It really is amazing how much more "real" it feels when the sound from the strike is actually coming from the implement in your hand rather than from the speaker on your TV.

I think they can make this work. The Wiimote has surprising heft for something of its size, and that plus the speaker and the vibrations make it feel far more realistic than you might expect by looking at it.

Re:force feedback

Of course, lightsabers stop when they contact each other...

-l

Re:force feedback

A Jedi can slice through a person with a light saber with no perceptible change to the momentum of the saber, so it seems likely that there is not a whole lot of tactile feedback in a "real" light saber either. I think the tactile feedback would probably be little more than it would be if one were slicing a hot knife through butter. So, fencing with a light saber in any context would not "live up to" the experience of real fencing because the weapons involved are too different.

There's also zero weight in the blade. If we did have such things as lightsabers, I think experienced fencers would have a lot of unlearning to do in order to get a feel for them. With no blade weight, a lightsaber would move faster than your fastest lightest swords, rapiers would be pokey in comparison. Additionally, the lightsaber is exceptional for stabbing and slashing whereas real life swords tend to have to pick one or the other as a compromise. The lack of a crossguard should also be a huge problem since I can't imagine there would be much friction with two blades sliding against each other, one would think that a downward strike could slide down a lightsaber right into the defender's hands.

I thought the "dropping the lightsaber through the floor" gag on Robot Chicken was hysterical because I had that same debate with other kids in elementary school.

But back to the topic at hand, I can't imagine trying to do lightsaber combat in a video game with anything other than a motion-sensitive controller like the Wii has. I've never encountered any sort of video game swordfighting system that properly simulated what it would be like to realistically cross swords. My only question is how they're going to simulate the footwork. You're not just standing in one spot beating at the other guy with a lightsaber, you would be moving around and trying not to get boxed in.

Re:force feedback

In order for a stabbing motion to be truly effective in a combat situation, it has to be either very fast and unexpected, or easily redirected to slip by an opponents parry. The heavier the blade, the more difficult it is to change the direction of the point, and the easier it is to defend against a thrust. You can stab with almost any sword, but the heavier the sword is, the less useful the thrust becomes as a primary attack - with a rapier, the thrust can be very difficult to avoid (because in the process of the thrust, one can do devious feints and changes in direction), whereas with weapons with heavy, broad blades, slashing is far more effective as a means to put one's opponent in a position where they won't be able to avoid the slower, more direct thrust that the heavier blade makes.

The problem is that you really can't strike a balance (even the sword you describe, and assuming we're talking about period materials) because any blade that can withstand repeated lateral blows will be too heavy to achieve the speed necessary for an effective thrusting attack.

Re:force feedback

> How do you get force feedback on those things?

Uhhhh by using the built-in functionality [wikipedia.org] of the Wiimote? That said, yes, it's just a vibration, but that vibration can tell you to stop wasting energy swinging through, etc.

-l

Re:force feedback

> It goes through everything like butter!

Except another lightsaber, matie. Arr!

Re:force feedback

How do you get force feedback on those things?

You feel the force through The Force, young padawan!

remember sony, It's not the size of your swartz

It's not the size of your swartz but what you can do with it!

Waggle?

So will the rest of the game rely on poorly coded waggle controls to get by? I like the concept, but this has got to be hard to code, and if it is not handled correctly, we are only going to end up with another crappy Star Wars game. Instead of giving us Wii owners bad ports with waggle controls added, I think LucasArts has two options. 1) Make sure the controls work, and work well. 2) Stop the bad ports, and give us updated versions of classic LucasArts games, like Monkey Island, Maniac Mansion, and others.

"Exclusive! Only on the Wii ... sometimes..."

'... and even then, it will only be available in an exclusive "duel mode."' Err, isn't that a bad thing?

Finally

This is a great move, but it still treats the Wii as an afterthought, with a unique multiplayer module tacked on to the core game. I'll still be pining for a real lightsaber game.

How about 2 sabers?

Both the nunchucks and the normal Wii remote have a motion sensor.

Sure, using the nunchuck to use the Force is a cool idea, but being able to play as Darth Maul has its attraction as well.

Yay! errr... I mean.... Yar!

My prayers be answered, mateys! An' as surely as the Pirates o' tha Carribean game be flawed an' misguided, truly this will lead ya scurvy Wii-dogs to the promised land o' riches!

Idea for the Wii controller

...lightsabers aside, it gives me an idea:

How long before something similar could be put to use on a PC, for 3D/CG manipulation?

/P

The very definition of...

A killer ap? I think so.

But how do you handle it?

Ok... ignore that... Seriously - how will it handle? Any Wii owner will tell you they were very disapointed with Red Steel, so is the light saber action only going to have 3 or so programmed swings or is it going to be 100% interactive?

That is what will make this "cool".

Re:But how do you handle it?

First, a minor quibble: I wasn't disappointed with Red Steel. While it didn't do what I feel was promised, the swordfighting was overall pretty cool because of how you could block. It was almost instinctive, so it allowed for better reaction times.

As for what the Wii's capable of: they really have a lot of room to innovate here that unfortunately hasn't been explored:

-It could largely solve the 1-1 motion matching problem by having the Wii detect vertical tilt as it normally does (w/ accelerometer) and horizontal motion with the pointer. If your Wiimote loses sight of the sensor bar, it can just bring your saber back in at the next place it does detect it. There is quite a wide detection angle to begin with.

-When sabers collide, make either the player push himself back (as represented by his onscreen view), or the opponent bounce backward, or some of both, so that your living-room Wiimote position, despite having "gone through" where the opponent's saber should be, is still consistent with what he sees on the screen.

Lightsabre dueling

The logistics of lightsabers always intrigued me... some possibilities:

- How fast can they turn off and back on? By timing it right you could bypass a parry but turning it off...

- Lightsabre trap... to stop others from using it, make it look like the other end is the business end.

- While most other forms seem silly (especially the two-ended staff), putting it on a long pole would be of definite advantage in some situations. But why stop there? Can you imagine a pair of light-sabre nunchuku? HOw about a garden rake with one stuck on the end? Or why not a boomerang with twin-sabre action that turns them on a few seconds after it leaves your hand, then back off when it returns... the possibilities are endless..

Re:Lightsabre dueling

You realize it was just a movie, right?

Arrrr!

Avast! I can hardly wait to smite you scallywags and keelhaul ya'.

Obligatory

"I have something here for you. Your father wanted you to have this when you were old enough, but your uncle wouldn't allow it. He feared you might follow old Obi-Wan on some damn fool idealistic computer adventure like your father did. It's your father's WiiMote. This is the weapon of a Wii Knight. Not as clumsy or as random as a Joystick, but an elegant weapon for a more civilized age. For over a thousand generations, the Wii Knights were the guardians of peace and justice in the Old Republic. Before the dark times, before the PS3."

Tacked on

So, what they are actually saying is that they are adding a tacked on, last minute, third party mode. Then they are going to point to it and say "see we gave everyone what they were yelling for" and when no one is happy with it LucasArts is going to be all smug and start talking about how it shows the Wii was not a viable platform to start with. It is no secret that LucasArts hasn't been a big fan of the Wii because of the less powerful graphics. This is more of a slap in the face than a real attempt to port it to the Wii.

As a Swordsman...

I wonder how they've approached making this work. Physics of swordplay aside, sword fighting is not easy. (Hint, *real* swordfighting doesn't look like the movies, and you can't pick it up in a couple afternoons swinging sticks at your friends.) If their simulation of sword movements is true to how each player is swinging their Wiimote, I think people may get frustrated very quickly by the fact that they're going to suck. On the other hand, if the controls are simplified to allow a preset handful of attacks, I wonder how much depth they can provide to the game.

Close combat

People dueling each other using the Wii remote better be prepared to stand pretty close to each other. The Wii remote range isn't that far horizontally.

The duel area wouldn't include the whole room you're playing in, which would be a really nice feature for a fun duel. In these duels, I can already visualize standing in front of the TV with a limited area in which to duel. I guess the fact it feels like you're swinging a lightsaber makes up for that but still...

Uncomfortably Close

Anyone else slightly disturbed how how closely the copy in TFS follows the write up at Kotaku [kotaku.com]?

I mean, it links to Next-Gen which is fine, but if your summary lifts more than 50% of the phrases word-for-word, maybe you should be linking that, too.

Oblig...

Yippeeee!!

I always thought a wiffle ball bat worked fine...

I always thought a wiffle ball bat worked fine for a light saber. Then again, I was about 8 the last time Star Wars seemed interesting.

Fencing is one potential sword-fighting model

Fencing has a set of standard moves that could be modeled on the wiimote. These include the foil and epee forms that involve stabbing motions as well as the sabre form which involves cutting motions. The combination of these forms would provide a rich set of moves that would have some basis in real sword-fighting. On the downside, I have yet to figure out how to summon force lightning while fencing.

Obligatory meme

In soviet Mordor, Han used the wiimote first.

Yarrr

It be what the wii was made for, nay?

wow

They just singlehandedly made 2007 a good year! :)

Holding out for a Wii version of Die by the Sword!

I would love to play this game [allgame.com] with the sword tracking the Wiimote...

The perfect advertisement for this!

A perfect advertisement for this is to show what you might look like while playing this game [youtube.com].

Enough already

There was a time when Lucas made games of striking individuality and imagination. Maniac Mansion, Monkey Island, Grim Fandango. The spaghetti western shooter Outlaws. There is a generation of gamers coming of age - already of age - whose fantasies have been shaped by J.K. Rowling. The Phoenix Wand and the Deathstick.

Offline?

I hope they mean offline multiplayer. The Wiimote latency is bad enough. If I have a lightsaber I dont want it going through a plastic straw.

fun times

My first thought is I wan to wield two at once. Wondering if Wii supports 4 remotes? I'm sure this isn't built into the functionality of the game, but hey it can't stop me from "dueling myself". Also I would really like the ability to kill yourself with the Wii-mote. Hari-kari anyone?

Yoda Wiimote

You know what they say about the Wiimote. Swinging leads to strap breaking, strap braking leads to throwing, throwing leads to Injury. I see many injuries in the future of this game.

Oblig youtube

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8NE5elL30w4 [youtube.com]

Skeptical

I am skeptical. The biggest red flag is that this is a multi-console game with extra features tacked on for the Wii. But I also have doubts about their ability to create a satisfying light saber experience with the Wiimote. When you have only accelerometers at your disposal, you won't be able to precisely wave the light saber left and right. Instead you'll only be able to register tilts and forces. This means that while it might recognize that you are holding the Wiimote horizontally, it won't ever know the position of the saber in relation to your body, and it won't necessarily have enough information to make a smooth transition to that point. There's a reason a lot of games have glitchy Wiimote support. For things like sword fighting, it really needs some gyroscopes.

Blocking blasters

I'm not as interested in fighting another sword (tho that is sort of cool) as I am in the aspect of blocking blaster shots. I wonder what kind of UI they could give you that would allow you to do that and feel like you were really doing it. In the film world a blaster shot is slower than light (maybe even slower than a bullet) but still extremely fast.

Not just multiplayer

TFA has a correction up: it's not just going to be for multiplayer.

The original story said the "sword-swinging" segments were only available during a "duel mode," however this is incorrect, as lightsaber action will be playable throughout the game.

I sense a disturbance in the force...

...as if millions of overweight fanboys jumped for joy and then landing very heavily all at once.

Sweet!

If they're smart, they'll do a second controller you strap onto your other hand so you can do force push/pull/throw on things.

If they could do a package like that, with a saber and some back-of-the-hand strapon (shut up!) I'd buy it.

Re:Wait a second...

"I always thought of the wiimote as REALLY intended for something way more sexually explicit..."

You'd better disable the rumble feature before you chip your teeth!

Re:Tag this "wiitard"

This article from pro-g [pro-g.co.uk] has a better analysis of the news event.

Re:lame yoda impressions I predict

Mod parent +1 Lame!

Re:Yes, but...

No but you will be able to commit the most embarrassing death of a Jedi ever by accidentally swinging it through your neck.