Croal vs. Totilo - Metroid Prime 3 vs. BioShock

Another round of considered commentary from two game journalism luminaries is now completed, and ready for your consumption. Newsweek's Croal and MTV's Totilo go back and forth on the merits of those 'other' console shooters, the ones without Halo in the title. What follows is a fascinating conversation focused on the titles BioShock and Metroid 3, with a wide-range of topics explored. They touch on the importance of a memorable opening, the sense of empowerment required for a good game, and a few words on what may have been lost in the move to 3D in the Metroid series. 'There's a very real argument to be made that something was lost in the transition from 2D to 3D, which is what the Wii's backers have been happy to talk about. While it's worth exploring why the transition ruined things for some gamers, I think little has been discussed about why other gamers didn't lose touch and what kind of tastes may have developed in those of us who stayed hardcore on both sides of the break. What do such gamers have to add to a discussion that so often deals only with the lapsed 2D gamers and the children of the 3D era, to say nothing of the outsider casuals?'"

Metroid Prime 3 vs. BioShock. Play both, be happy.

If you want to compare both, you need to play both. I do recommend BioShock first however since Metroid simply controls better than any Dual analog FPS could. If you play Metroid first you may you might deduct points on BioShock for a control scheme that was natural before, but now feels "clunky". For the record, I prefer Metroid Prime 3 controls over Dual Analog & PC FPS's.

While mouse sensitivity is still greater than the Wiimote (at least here, but it is a narrowing margin) The Analog stick kicks the shit out of WASD.

Both are stellar games however, if you own a Wii60, buy both.

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I like both too. Bioshock is a good experience for me since I haven't enjoyed an FPS since Doom and Doom II... Bioshock takes it back to the roots of what made an FPS a lot of fun for me, the killing in a new and thrilling environment. You don't have to

Re:Metroid Prime 3 vs. BioShock. Play both, be hap

The Analog stick kicks the shit out of WASD.

Precisely why I use , . alt and right mouse button instead! ;)

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You haven't read the vs. discussion then. It's suprisingly deep discussion of game design, and both make interesting arguments.

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So, what you are saying is that I don't belong on a mac because I'm not an elitist prick? Gotcha.

3d ruined Metroid

I enjoy the 2d Metroid games a lot. The 3d games range from horrible (3d on the DS, what the hell?) to "Meh."

In my opinion, the 3d games ruined the franchise. They turned Metroid into Zelda in space.

Zelda itself didn't fare too well in the 3d transiti

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3D ruined chess too.....oh wait.

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I have to strongly disagree. The 3D transition wasn't really a transition. It was the beginning of a totally different franchise. The 2D Metroid games were great (and they still are). There's just nothing in Metroid Prime like the arcade-style simplici

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2D games just have a certain appeal that can't be achieved in 3D no matter how many pixels or Gflops you throw at them.

I disagree. I think Super Mario 64 converted the original 2d Mario experience superbly to 3d. Then again, it was a 3rd person camera, which makes a big difference, and wouldn't work for a FPS (obviously).

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I think that the 3D zelda games (in particular the N64 ones) are some of the greatest games ever. Although I love the original Zelda as well. Zelda 2 was different than the original, but still 2d, and I don't care for it much.

I've enjoyed what I've played

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And if you actually enjoy Metroid, Super Metroid, Metroid: Zero Mission... then for the love of the gods, stay the hell away from Metroid Fusion.

A Linear Metroid? WTF were they smoking?!

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Metroid on DS was plain awful, the Primes weren't that bad, but I don't consider all that great either. I don't blame this on 3D, but mainly on the first person view. When jumping is a central part of the gameplay it just flat out sucks to not have a body.

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I enjoy the 2d Metroid games a lot. The 3d games range from horrible (3d on the DS, what the hell?) to "Meh."

Metroid on the DS was just an FPS game with Samus thrown in. It's not a real Metroid game.

Prime 1 felt like Super Metroid from a different camera

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I have to respectfully disagree. I grew up on the NES and SNES, and loved the Metroid and Zelda series's. I'm the biggest Zelda/Metroid fan I know.

I absolutely adore the 3D games. Twilight Princess is my second favorite Zelda game ever (after A Link to

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(3d on the DS, what the hell?)

The control scheme on the DS version of Metroid was absolutely horrible, the game itself was okay, but I had major issues with the controls. It's the only game I can think of in recent memory where the control scheme actually

Prime is one of the best games of all time.

First of all, I too was disappointed with the 3D DS Metroid. The DS is perfect for Metroidvania games, as the two Castlevanias have shown. Now Hunters is not a bad game; in fact, it is one of the best games on the DS, and the best portable FPS you can have

Stop The Hurting

Guys... why do we need to hate games. Why not just play and love both.

Memorable openings

Indeed, a memorable opening is important.

Unfortunately, what was most memorable to me about the opening of BioShock was that, as soon as you gain control of the player, the water splashing up in your face as you swim in the sea leaves drips on the screen, as if it were hitting the glass lens of a camera. There's my sense of immersion destroyed in the first few seconds!

In fact, "Something splashing on the lens, such as water or mud" is listed on Wikipedia's page on breaking the fourth wall [wikipedia.org] as a "technical limitation" that can remind the viewer that what they are seeing is [a film, and] not real life!

Otherwise, the opening was quite good :)

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Interestingly, the Metroid Prime games do this too -- but there it doesn't constitute a fourth wall violation since you (Samus) are supposed to be wearing a helmet with a visor.

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In MP2 (and possibly the first, I don't remember) you could actually see Samus' face reflected in the visor when there was an explosion nearby. In MP3 its even better. Whenever the visor darkens in scan mode, you can see her face and her eyes move to follo

Re:Memorable openings

Unfortunately, what was most memorable to me about the opening of BioShock was that, as soon as you gain control of the player, the water splashing up in your face as you swim in the sea leaves drips on the screen, as if it were hitting the glass lens of a camera. There's my sense of immersion destroyed in the first few seconds!

Of course, those of us with glasses find this completely immersive. :)

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Yeah, that annoyed me too. It's like when they add lens flare to medieval/fantasy games. Introducing errors that contradict the story just because... hey, the engine supports it! George Lucas syndrome.

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I don't know how many people haven't played the game yet, so FAIR WARNING FOR SPOILERS:

The fact that you are reminded that you're playing a game in the first few seconds of playing makes perfect sense, given the "Would you kindly" scene with Ryan (think

I still play both styles

I have all my old consoles still, and I play them about 25% of the time I'd say, but only a select few games that I just absolutely love playing, like Megaman 2, Metroid, LoZ, Lolo, and a couple others. There's something so attractive and moving about the simplicity of them visually, combined with the superb level design that just touches me in an extremely meaningful way. The music is also something that I love, it's so pure, no overtones and no human elements to make it imperfect, simple sounds juxtaposed against extremely complex musical arrangements; I actually ripped all my favorite NES music into .wav and listen to it in my car on a regular basis (Maniac Mansion gets me pumped when I'm driving). So the original 2D has this dichotomy of simplicity and complexity that makes it extremely unique and highly enjoyable, but the 3D games like Metroid Prime and Ocarina of Time just have so much depth to both the gameplay and the visuals that they just work for me. Obviously it's not the same type of enjoyment as the old ones, but that's why I keep them around. The 3D ones, I feel, have the same attention to detail and reflect just as much effort as the 2Ds, the only difference is that the incredible effort put into them can be directed into more areas of design and with greater depth than before. It's like eating a meal from the best chef in the world made from only 6 ingredients as opposed to a meal made by the best chef in the world with 20 ingredients; they'll both be the best meals you've ever had, but of course they'll be different.

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I play both too. I still have my Super Metroid cartridge, but I haven't played it in awhile since I sold my SNES before I moved (no point in keeping it for just one game that I knew was coming to VC anyway). I got the VC download of Super Metroid 3 days

It's been posted before, but it deserves attention

A Bioshock review. [escapistmagazine.com]

I love the outcome...

when two 'hardcore' gamers get into the same room. Mario, Metroid, and Zelda are different games in 3D. It is unfair to judge a 3D game by the merits of the mechanics of a 2D predecessor. The fact that all three franchises have become critical and financia

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Hmm... Wow!

That's incredibly insulting. All the "3-D" Metroid games I've played have been boring (I got 1 and 2 as gifts). B-o-r-i-n-g. However, unlike you, I don't begrudge other gamers their enjoyment of the spinoff Metroid series "Metroid Prime."

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wow, dude, such anger! I happen to agree with him, and I love Super Metroid. I place Prime 1 and Super Metroid at the top of the list. I think the 3D games are VERY faithful to the original series in all but the action-element in the gameplay... of which I

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I agree with you except for Zelda. I think 3D Zelda and 2D Zelda are essentially fairly similar, since the game itself doesn't revolve so much around control mechanics. The game is essentially a puzzle game with fighting thrown in the mix. This means that

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I haven't played Prime 3, but I know that the first two Primes had the best first-person jumping I've ever personally seen...I never had a problem determining a jump, and rarely did I have to try more than once to make said jump (compared to something like

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I think this comes from the fact that most 3D platformers are 3rd person, which, while being great in theory, also have some severe handicaps. It's much harder judging exact depth in 3rd person than in 1st person. The 3rd person games tend to vissually res

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I think Mario Sunshine really nailed the third-person platforming aspects with the "floating" water cannon. This helped you manage platforms, and it also gave you some reference of where you are via the streams of water going down from your pipes.

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In the Prime games the character looks down for a half second when quickly nearing ledges and jumping.

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I've heard this complaint a lot. Now, with a flat screen, you don't have the advantage of stereoscopic vision and you have to instead rely (mostly) on relative motion of objects on the screen. This naturally means that level design is important to implem

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I agree completely. And stereoptics is actually pretty weak. The eye judges distance MOSTLY from other kinds of visual cues besides stereoptics. I think people will find that if they played a game with a stereoptic screen, it wouldn't actually be that much

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. . . her story is intriguing, but her personality is completely non-existant

I think Samus should hook up with Link. They'd have so much to talk about.

Re:Marketing Hype Vs Waggle

Based on you saying this, I can only assume you haven't played either game for more than 5 minutes...as a long time first person shooter fan (played them since Catacomb 3D) and as a die hard System Shock/SS2 fan, I can say that BioShock does indeed deserve every outstanding review that it gets...the controls are tight, the weapons are well balanced, the plasmids make for some VERY interesting fights, and the graphics are quite pretty.

As a fan of the metroid series since the very first one on NES was released, I have to say my number one reason for liking the Prime series so much is because of this: even if it is 3D, it still FEELS like a Metroid game...The atmosphere, music, weapons, enemies...even the areas that seem like dead ends but have some small little hidey hole or passage to find are intact. Prime is Metroid, through and through.

Re:Marketing Hype Vs Waggle

Based on you saying this, I can only assume you haven't played either game for more than 5 minutes...

Pfft, as if you could play Metroid for any length of time and call the motion controls "tacked on". They're integral, and they're better than anything any previous console controller could produce.

5 minutes is how long it took before I swore off ever playing an FPS with dual analog ever again. I bet Bioshock for the PC is fun, but damned if I want to play the Xbox version.

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While an analog stick will NEVER be a replacement for a keyboard/mouse combo, all it takes is a little bit of use...after playing through only a couple of FPS with a controller, I found that I got used to it to the point where I feel comfortable picking up

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Granted, as I said, there really is no replacement for a keyboard and mouse, but it doesn't take long to get used to using the controller.

It's not a matter of "used to"; I've logged many many hours of console FPS play. Yet it has always been and will alwa

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You know, someone has to say it: The Prime 3 controls are not perfect. They're somewhere between okay and not any better that the GC controls. Locking on for circle strafing is great, but it also re-centers the screen on the object of interest, without you

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Well, to be honest, for an adventure game that's not a pure trigger-happy FPS, the control scheme for Prime 1 was close to perfect. Granted, in a mulitplayer combat situation, most FPS fans would find it extremely limiting, but for what's required of the M

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I agree... as a fan of Super Metroid (and used to speed run is regularly), I was VERY skeptical of Prime. While it is NOT the same, the feel is certainly Metroid and was loads of fun to play. Also, kudos to Retro for not giving in to excessive Samus eye-

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What I liked most about Bioshock was how it took those many ideas from all the stellar titles in the action genre: the implant system from Deus Ex (plasmid system), the Gravity Gun from HL2 (Telekinesis plasmid), sneaking and hacking from various "Thief" d

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Is Bioshock a continuation/spinoff of the System Shock series?!

If so, I may have to pick it up and go to my brother's to hog his 360 for awhile...

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It's in large parts the same team and basically a kind of spiritual sequel, just without the rights to the actual name.

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[...] and the graphics are quite pretty.

While true that the rendering quality has increased significantly in the last few years, one thing that really annoys me in games like Bioshock (and others, eg. Doom3) is that there are human-like characters in it t

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I never played either System Shock game, but I'm currently on my second time through BioShock.

I like it a lot. The atmosphere, the story itself, it all just sort of rolls together in a really fun game. I'm not an FPS fan, and BioShock doesn't come off as

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Near the end it becomes clear that one of them was relatively new, and never played Metal Gear before the 2d-3d transition. I"m not sure whether they're for or against MGS in 3d. Ghost Babel was a fantastic game that brought the most interesting parts from