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First and third (Score:5, Insightful)
They are not exclusive.
Re:First and third (Score:5, Insightful)
Exactly. Widespread surveillance is made to have something to use against potential threats (to national security? Nope, the nation is what is being spied. To the status quo? that's more likely and always happened in the past).
But most of the targets are not harmful. It's just nice to be able to blackmail or convict everyone if the need arises.
Re:First and third (Score:5, Insightful)
But most of the targets are not harmful. It's just nice to be able to blackmail or convict everyone if the need arises.
Exactly. This is what we should be scared of.
Re: (Score:2)
Yet we give away our personal information all the time, implicitly trusting online companies like Amazon, Google, and Facebook. Not sure how I should feel about the Government keeping tabs on those already keeping tabs on me.
Re:First and third (Score:4, Interesting)
I'm glad the NSA has an excuse to collect data on everyone. It's almost certainly harmless to Average Joe, so it is okay, apparently.
Nevermind the fact that this "potential stuff" of the NSA using blackmailing tactics has actually been employed to attack individuals, even without an otherwise just cause. Or the fact that it's illegal for them to even do this to begin with. Or even the fact that the NSA is showing no disregard for anyone's right to privacy. It's likely not going to be used against you personally, so we might as well not even bother thinking about it.
Re: (Score:2, Insightful)
I'm glad the NSA has an excuse to collect data on everyone. It's almost certainly harmless to Average Joe, so it is okay, apparently.
I never said it's okay. I'm just saying it's really really low on my priorities list and certainly not worth a scare. At most, I can keep it on the back of my head, as in "it's there" and nothing else.
Maybe other people have lots of free time and can spend resources on this whole thing, but me, my family and all my friends have more important things to to, like minding our plain, boring, not really entertaining lives.
Re: First and third (Score:3, Insightful)
You have time to post on Slashdot, but not too think about whether your government is overstepping its bounds and if it should be reigned in? perhaps you need to reexamine your priorities here.
Re:First and third (Score:4, Insightful)
I'm glad the NSA has an excuse to collect data on everyone. It's almost certainly harmless to Average Joe, so it is okay, apparently.
I never said it's okay. I'm just saying it's really really low on my priorities list and certainly not worth a scare. At most, I can keep it on the back of my head, as in "it's there" and nothing else.
Maybe other people have lots of free time and can spend resources on this whole thing, but me, my family and all my friends have more important things to to, like minding our plain, boring, not really entertaining lives.
You don't deserve democracy. You ought to live in Iran or Saudi Arabia to see how much a real democracy is worth. Then you'd care. Because it's because of you that one day, overstepping its bounds once more, the government of america will be a totalitarian regime. And you will still not care.
Remember the old story:
First they came for the jews. I was not jew so I shut up.
Then they came for the muslims. I was not muslims so I shut up.
Then they came for the XXX. I was not a XXX so I shut up.
Then they came for me, and nobody said anything....
You deserve to be deported. You and your busy life living you BBQs, plain with beer, sausages, pork ribs and Coke. Live a happy life. Until they come for you. But by then, don't expect anyone to stand up for you. Not me, nobody here, noone.
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Dude. :)
I don't live in the USA.
But nice speech anyway
(FYI I don't eat barbeque, don't drink alcohol, loathe pork and hate Coke)
Also I think the Gov't of the USA has been rather totalitarian since the 1890s or so.
Re: (Score:2)
Why would I jump into an airplane, change planes at Frankfurt or Heathrow, fly all over the ocean, go to Washington and likely spend two yearly salaries to protest against a thing that flies low on my priority list?
FYI: they won anyway, they always do, protests or not.
Re: (Score:2)
Because I was born in and live in Romania. good enough for a reason?
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
And yet, anyone who has a second thought about going into politics because of this potential, however slight, has had their First Amendment rights infringed. Ditto for people who have ignored friend requests due to the potential for guilt-by-association. (Now that we know they're going as deep as three hops, not only do you and your friends have to be politically reliable, you have to
Re: (Score:2)
I wouldn't say it is so much a factor of they might be doing this, but that they have already done it to people. I probably have a small file with several government agencies mostly because of the work I do (lots to do with airports and airlines, have gone through multiple DHS backgrounds checks), so for me I am not that concerned, but for your average person this is not right at all.
It is the fact that they are warrantlessly doing this to other individuals in a blanket attempt to find anything they think
Re: (Score:2)
Of course people have the right to be pissed off, it's, as I was saying, a matter of priorities. If one thinks it's high on their priority list, by all means, I won't try to stop them from doing whatever they think is right, but on the same note I won't join them in their march, simply because this is less important to me than other things. Who knows, maybe I'm a "healthy food" activist instead :)
Re: (Score:2)
Who knows, maybe I'm a "healthy food" activist instead :)
Healthy food? Are you insinuating that the food we already have is not healthy? That what agribusiness is doing is not right? That's it, you're on the list.
Re: (Score:2)
Yey, I'm on ONE list!
Achievement Unlocked!
Re: (Score:2)
I'm not worried about a conscientious NSA employee coming after me.
The real problem is that the NSA servers {will be / are} a one-stop shop for heaps of interesting information about individuals. And I'm pretty sure that they will be breached sooner than later.
Re: (Score:2)
Re:First and third (Score:4, Interesting)
That's a good one, too.
Personally I had enough experience with federal databases and tracking individuals. I'm in the US on a J-1 visa, my wife is a J-2 dependent. Now we had to have our drivers license renewed every year as my contracts were one-year each time and they did not want to give me a DL valid longer than my lawful status in the US.
Renewing included checking with DHS if we are lawfully present - if my contract is valid. For me it was always OK right away. For my wife, it was 2-3 weeks before DHS gave the nod, the automated system never cleared her right away even though her visa was sponsored by the exact same program ( since she is a "dependent"). Why? We'll never know.
The day they will link the NSA dabases up with DMVs, FBI, DHS, ..., now that will be a nice clusterfuck.
Re: (Score:2)
For my wife, it was 2-3 weeks before DHS gave the nod, the automated system never cleared her right away even though her visa was sponsored by the exact same program ( since she is a "dependent"). Why? We'll never know.
Well, they're suspicious enough of people marrying actual Americans and moving into their country, so it's maybe not that surprising that they're even more careful with the dependants of foreign workers?
Re: (Score:2)
Maybe we do not appreciate being considered as future illegal immigrants by default?
Re: (Score:2)
I didn't say you do. But that's exactly how you are seen by default. Unless you're Muslim. Then you're probably seen as a terrorist by default.
Re: (Score:2)
So would Facebook, which also contains heaps of interesting information about individuals.
My point is that it's far easier and less risky for a hacker to go for your e-mail account, which likely is a portal to pretty much anything NSA already has. OK, maybe 80% of it, but it's more than enough for a malevolent individual.
Furthermore, the same rule applies: if you're a boring individual, then you're most likely safe from prying eyes.
Re: (Score:3)
As I pointed out in my post just seconds ago - me and my wife, we already had inconveniences and extra runs with administration just because something did not add up in a database (DHS in this case).
The more information lingers about you in central databases, the more things can go wrong, even unintentionally.
As for how much NSA has : they admitted to collecting "metadata only" but I don't really buy that. This place [gov1.info] is capable of doing much more...
Boring individuals are safe : that's a nice way to cement
Re: (Score:2)
if you're a boring individual, then you're most likely safe from prying eyes.
That's the sticky wicket for Mahmoud the boring young Arab immigrant peacefully and coincidentally going to the same mosque as Mahmood the not-so-boring, not-so-peaceful, young Arab immigrant who want to blow something up in a crowd of babies.
He'd best pray that the FBI agents who pick him up the day after the Day Care Bombing don't have their collective heads up their asses when he tries to prove that he's innocent and boring.
Turning it back to someone that WASPs can relate to: I'd better hope that my fath
Re: (Score:2)
> Being scared of potential stuff ultimately leads to mental illness.
Take driving. Driving well means looking for potential trouble every instant. And your life and your passengers' and other people's depend on those trouble. Driving well, according to you, leads to mental illness?
No because you don't OBSESS about it. You take precautions (seatbelt, speed) and live on.
Re: (Score:2)
If you are always SCARED of dangers while driving AND driving at the same time, it WILL turn you mad.
Somehow you managed to confuse "being aware of" with "being scared of". Not the same thing, not by far.
Re: (Score:3)
Sure, the NSA is probably not going to come after you. However, once these databases are out there, there will be pressure to increase the return on investment by using them more and more. Shouldn't we be using them to look for kiddie porn? Maybe all of the local PD's should have access so they could try to prevent another Boston Bombing.
Once this thing is available to large numbers of people, it WILL be used for something it's not supposed to be used for.
Re: (Score:2)
Being scared of potential stuff ultimately leads to mental illness. Every man you pass by *can* attack and hurt you, but none do, because they have no reason. Every policeman you see *can* shoot and kill you, but none do, as they have no reason to do so.
Same for NSA; they *can* blackmail you, but the chance of them doing this to YOU, specifically, are very, very, very slim.
Just because it probably won't happen to me doesn't mean I should not be concerned about NSA spying. The spying creates a chilling effect on political dissidents and activists, some of whom fight for causes I believe in. A lot of those people have been targeted. So I am affected indirectly when this type of stuff goes on. Then there's the principle that we value freedom of speech and expression in this country. I want to see that upheld, not chipped away by some secret agency.
Based on no data but my gut feeling, I would venture to say it is more likely for an Average Joe to be shot by a random dude than to be targeted by the NSA. I say that based on the fact that there's more people carrying guns in the USA than NSA agents carrying papers to serve other people.
And the chances of any giv
Re: (Score:2)
I agree with you to some extent. But in my case, I have a limited amount of concern to go around and it's running up already. :)
As I was saying in my other posts, it's a matter of personal priorities. I respect someone else's just as much as I'd like them to respect mine
This thing... is not MY priority, that's pretty much the gist of it.
Re: (Score:2)
Who said it required action by the NSA? Maybe all this info will leak out some day. They couldn't keep Snowden from leaking info, so if some admin is offered, say, a life as Kim Jong-Un's BFF in North Korea in return for embarrassing the NSA to death with a petabyte of leaked database, what will stop that?
Re: (Score:2)
As I was saying... you don't even have to go that far. A simple grab of publicly available data on Facebook would likely yield 80% of that information... for free and with 0% risk.
Re: (Score:2)
You think 80% of the stuff the NSA has could be found in publicly available Facebook info? I don't see any way it could be more than 1%, even if you're an avid Facebook user. They don't present your credit card info and shopping transactions, email, VoIP calls, surfing records...all that other stuff that leaves your modem and comes back in. Which the NSA is capturing.
Re: (Score:2)
Step 1. Install DC++
Step 2. Go to a really crowded hub which requires a minimum amount of shared data and search for "My Documents" folder name or "Windows" folder name
Step 3. Enjoy hundreds of results containing scanned credit card images, plain text e-mails with SSNs, unencrypted Outlook personal folders, etc.
Re: (Score:2)
So you're saying it's only as bad as being a moron who shares their whole computer with a P2P file sharing app?
Re: (Score:2)
Um, no, I'm saying that if you really want to get info on random people, there's lots of places to do so.
Re: (Score:2)
Guess who spent trillions of dollars to spy on everybody because they're scared of potential threats.
Re: (Score:2)
Shows they're crazy :)
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Neither. I act the same as I always did. Looking back, I've had my fair share of unruliness but nothing really out of the ordinary. I've been a law-abiding citizen but contested local decisions quite vocally when they were matching my life priority list.
(disclaimer: I live in Europe and maybe that helps...)
Re: (Score:2)
For most of us, it's neither, but imagine you're in a position to regulate banking or industrial activities in the U.S, or if you're an investigative journalist, then you better be prepared to have every activity monitored and, for god's sake, don't pay for prostitutes with a bank card like Elliot Spitzer.
Re: (Score:2)
I for one would LOVE to see those types of shady activities exposed, mainly when they're related to people with high public profile.
I am convinced that one who keeps "high morality", stays away from shady businesses and generally doesn't do anything overly stupid can as well run for presidency with no issues whatsoever.
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
It's just nice to be able to blackmail or convict everyone if the need arises.
It's just nice to be able to blackmail or convict everyone once the "need" has been created.
FTFY.
Re: (Score:2, Funny)
If you're that concerned, just change your name to Ben Ghazi and then the government and media will ignore you.
Re: (Score:2)
I don't think our equivalent of the IRS cares about what I do. They do some mining with my data, just like your NSA, and then throw it to into the bin.
I also doubt that part. If they mine the data at all (oposed to just looking after the fact), it's not terrorists that they are looking for. It would be a very stupid way for searching for terrorists, and the NSA isn't known for doing stupid things.
We're family. (Score:2)
You know those privileged extended families where some of the kids go into cushy government/corporate positions while the other kids become rebels because they hate what the other half of their family are doing? Well, in my youth, I was in the latter sort.
And it was pretty much a given that
1) people did take an interest in what I was doing, but more for people I associated with than who I actually was myself (i.e. fairly irrelevant); and
2) it was unlikely that I would come to any harm, because I knew the ri
Re:We're family. (Score:4, Insightful)
Re: (Score:2)
deru kugi wa utareru: The nail that sticks up will be hammered down. [wikipedia.org]
Disturbing, considering the traditional ideals of individual worth and individual growth.
Re: (Score:2)
Disturbing, considering the fictional ideals of individual worth and individual growth.
FTFY. No country has ever been interested in this. Governments have only ever used words like these to prop up certain tall nails and keep the rest from sticking up.
Paranoid or not... (Score:5, Insightful)
The relevant question is: are you doing something about it (or just feel ashamed that someone may call you paranoid)?
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Re: (Score:3)
In the health services the philosophy is "there's no such thing as a healthy person - just one who's maladies haven't been diagnosed yet". So it is with citizenship. Everyone has broken the law - maybe kno
Rigging the game (Score:2, Insightful)
They're not after me personally, but the NSAs and GCHQs around the world changes how everything works.
With such detailed information about everyone, they can silently make indirect key changes that tips the world in whatever
direction they so desire. Politicians they dislikes are given a steeper hill to climb, as things tends to work against them.
I think the US or UK or any countries that has such secret, uncontrollable, and powerful adversary working against
its own population from within disqualifies it as
Honestly, (Score:3)
all this "polls" nonsense is useless now. Just ask NSA, they know what you'd say.
Oh ha ha! Silly tinfoil hatters! (Score:5, Insightful)
Let's make a poll. Those silly guys keep talking about how the government is spying on all of us. Those silly tinfoil hatters!
Oh, my. There is a cabinet in a major data interconnect area siphoning off all data. Probably nothing. Imagine what those silly tinfoil hatters are gonna say about it! Ha ha. Let's make a poll.
Oh my. There are some leaks showing potentially massive surveillance of everyone, but probably nothing. This is gonna suck. Those silly tinfoil hatters are gonna have a heyday with this.
Oh my. The executive branch has been conclusively shown to be wholesale spying on everyone, and lying to the legislative branch about it, and the legislative and judicial branches have been proven to be at the best lax in their duties to reign in the executive branch.
Let's make another poll making fun of the tinfoil hatters.
With a global dragnet, who knows (Score:5, Interesting)
Due to the nature of my job, I spend most of my time abroad and frequently communicate with "suspect" countries. I also engage in international communications involving the US on a regular basis. Given that Obama blows unidentified people up for a "pattern of behaviors" in so-called signature strikes, I say go ahead and laugh at my tinfoil hat. I will never know how my years of paranoia--using proxies, encryption, etc., on a regular basis--have influenced what data the NSA have been able to pin to whatever unique hash represents me in their secret databases, but I hesitate to call it paranoia now... more like prescience.
Re: (Score:2)
I will never know how my years of paranoia--using proxies, encryption, etc., on a regular basis--have influenced what data the NSA have been able to pin to whatever unique hash represents me in their secret databases, but I hesitate to call it paranoia now... more like prescience.
What you have done is illuminate yourself with a spot light. Good job.
Re: (Score:2)
Given that Obama blows unidentified people
I've heard a lot of accusations but I believe that's a new one...
Re: (Score:2)
Isn't that the best kind?
they don't care about me (Score:4, Interesting)
but, they are watching everyone and that includes a lot of people who's decisions affect me. If they are collecting information illegally, who's to say they won't use it illegally. For example to influence congressional oversight or even to tilt a campaign toward the congressman who is more likely to be pro-NSA.
On a less 'conspiracy theory' line of thought, the CEO of my global company may decide that the US isn't the best place to do business.
So, even though they don't care about me, their collection of my information can affect me in big ways since that collection is part of a big, poorly-targeted surveillance system.
Not myself, but... (Score:3)
I'm probably on their radar (Score:3)
I'm probably not identified as a likely terrorist, but I've said enough and written enough and protested enough publicly that I might have grabbed their attention. In addition, I know some people who met these clowns [usatoday.com] at a political protest, and since they've said they're looking at 3 degrees of separation, I fall under that umbrella.
I doubt they spent more than a few minutes on me, but I have every reason to believe they looked into my activities.
They Can See Me Now, And... (Score:2)
They can see which fingers I am waving at them... one on each hand, of course.
I for one welcome our new Robotic CowboyNeal ove.. (Score:2)
It's been a while since I've seen that missing option. Welcome back! Finally, /. polls feel warm and fuzzy again. BRB girlscout at door...
Re: (Score:2)
I voted for that on principle - I don't give a f**k about NSA any more than they probably (don't) care about me. But cowboy neal, I like
Missing option (Score:3)
They probably don't care about me, but I object to what they're doing on principle.
What about this option? (Score:5, Insightful)
"They could not care less about me, but all it takes is one guy two hops away for them to be one step away from breaking down my door"
Not a citizen (Score:2)
They already have my fingerprints and likely have a nice metadata repository. It doesn't help that I'm a free-thinker and believe the entire government structure in this country is corrupt. I think that's a majority view nowadays anyhow though.
They had it years ago.. (Score:5, Interesting)
A few years back I showed up at the airport without my ID (i'd taken it out to show ID at a bar, yadda, yadda) . Assuming I wouldn't be able to fly, I went to ask the TSA agent to be sure, and to my surprise, they said, go over to this desk over here and we'll ask you a few questions.
The agent asked for my name and SSN, then in a matter of seconds called up a list of questions such as: The first car I ever registered, What my address was in 1992, when the last time I traveled internationally... I couldn't answer one of the questions and they simply added in a few more. This was probably 2008 and front line TSA agent had access to a voluminous profile on me. I can imagine an FBI agent would have access to a lot more and now with the BIG Data projects the NSA is - they probably could paint an accurate picture of my finances, travel habits and web/communications trends.
So yes, I was able to fly - but I left with my head spinning about how well I was profiled even then.
Re:They had it years ago.. (Score:5, Insightful)
Mod "+1, Frightening"
Re: (Score:3)
Re: (Score:3)
Re: (Score:2)
Still it shows you how much data just the "mall cops" of US government security had access to...
Missing option (Score:3)
"They have a detailed file about me, and I could not care less about them"
The only thing they'll learn about me... (Score:2)
Off the grid with CowboyNeal (Score:5, Funny)
So that's why CowboyNeal has been absent on the poll options lately! He's been hiding from the NSA! It's all explained now. :)
It's not paranoia if it's true. (Score:2)
If you don't think the NSA has detailed files on you, then you are an idiot. Saying that doesn't make me paranoid.
none (Score:4, Insightful)
All of the options are 20th century.
The very point of what has been revealed is that none of this is true, and the truth is much worse.
They don't watch you or keep a file on you. And they care and don't care at the same time. Basically, you don't exist except as a metadata field until someone mentions your name and asks for your data. Only then, because they are vacuuming up everything can they run a big search and create that huge file on you on demand. And not just on you, on everyone.
William Gibson was right. If he had written stories about what is reality today, 20 years ago we would've laughed about how over-the-edge paranoid he is.
Immigrants (Score:2)
Most immigrants should be ticking "they have a detailed file about me", of course they are freely given the majority of the information by the applicant while they go through the various visa/greencard/naturalization processes so perhaps it isn't quite the same.
Political Activity Construed as Suspicious (Score:3)
One more choice... (Score:2)
Hee. Hee. Cranky old guy is ranting online again.
Now get off my router!
Pretty sure Special Branch know all about me (Score:2)
Applied for a job at GCHQ once, have attended various royal and political events etc. Don't suppose they're particularly bothered.
I am worried about their paranoia not mine (Score:2)
I don't think they care about me, but they are not using the heavy hand yet. I think they are still targeting what the believe to be genuine threats to public safety. If the government paranoia reaches the point that they start viewing political challenges as threast then we are all in trouble.
What they will do when the next wave of McCarthyism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McCarthyism [wikipedia.org] arrives really scares me. They probably still won't care about me, but I might fall into a target demographic. Major damage
Living off the grid with CowboyNeal? (Score:3)
They could not care less about me (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
I'm glad that that pleases you.
I picked the third one... (Score:2)
...but really, any of the first three can realistically be a fact. Theoretically, "they could care less about me" could be true based on their statements that once they find out who you are (and no doubt they have years of data definitely pointing right at me). On the other hand, who knows what will happen in the future, if they start deciding to secretly go after people, whose data can lead to every single American being accused of "illegal" activities?
All of the sudden, they go from "couldn't care less"
NSA is not a special case (Score:2)
Whatever concerns anyone might have about the NSA, however you think they could have possibly spied on you (whether they bothered or not) your lack of security means there are a thousand other parties just like them, to whom you're just as vulnerable.
Encrypt.
If you're worried about the NSA, and I'm not even saying that's dumb, then also worry about the Chinese, the Russians, the kid next door, and Nigerian spammers. Your plaintext is as equally visible to anyone who wants to read it. OTOH if you have your
Give them something to chew on (Score:2)
weaponized anthrax aerosols
Re: (Score:2)
Fissionable toffee used by black-bag crypto-anarchists to assassinate quiche [theregister.co.uk].
The Chicken Heart (Score:2)
The options today sound like The Chicken Heart [wikipedia.org].
It's in your home state!
It's outside of your door!
And it's going to eat you up!
A la Bill Cosby, I'm gettin' out the Jell-O.
The options don't meet my level of paranoia. (Score:2)
My level of paranoia is, "I think they've collected and are storing a lot of information about me but are not actively reviewing it and are unlikely to ever have any interest in it."
Clearances... (Score:2)
Spying doesn't have to be about you to hurt you (Score:3)
It can hurt the competitiveness of companies making it seem like big companies just get lucky all the time
It can hurt the democratic process making it seem like new parties and ideas just cant seem to get off the ground.
It can hurt the system of justice making it seem like all the "big guys" get away with it all the time.
It can hurt the economic system making it seem like the "insiders" never miss an opportunity for easy money.
Its not busting down the door that worries me (much). Its the slow decline and malaise that comes with bad people using this tool to stay in control and win without having to try.
Re: (Score:2)
For real. I helped set up a boycott of Koch industries a couple of years ago. They busted down my door once already, stole all of my things, and persistently attack me, threaten me, and have US attorney's after me. I live in constant fear that my communications are not private and that they are waiting for me to fuck up in order to fuck me up. It wears on my nerves.
Can you give us any references for any of this? Even the non-scary parts, like just what protest was it? Where? Was it written up in the news? Especially interesting would be if you have references for the scary shit, though I understand how it's probably all tied up in secret courts with secret laws.
Re: (Score:2)
The data Google has on you is a subset of the data the NSA has on you.
Re: (Score:2)
I couldn't care less that they could care less about not caring less about me.
Re: (Score:3)
the IRS. Unlike the NSA, which probably does have substantial data on me but probably will never use it, the IRS will hound you with whatever they have on you. At least the NSA only has data about me that they've been able to find. I am required to submit information to the IRS telling them all about my private financial life.
It's also worth noting that we don't really know if the NSA is actually abusing the information they have. We do know the IRS has been abusing people for their political views. I'm much more worried about the IRS than the NSA.
Wow. I can guarantee you that posts like that will get you on a watch list. The IRS did nothing politically motivated. Issa has been made a fool of with his ginned up "scandal" that wasn't. I can point at testimony and documents released as proof, that Issa subpoenaed mind you. What you got? Fox News and GOP talking points?